There's just no room to be flawed around Narcissistic people.

[Depression = 72% of members]

My Dad has Narccistic traits and has been neglecting our pets, and my neighbor killed 4 cats and let 2 run away, and I think I triggered that. I don't really blame myself, because it's their dysfunction, to want control so much, that you'd abuse and neglect animals.

But, I'm totally realizing some of my own mistakes here, most of which I've already addressed and apologized for. Such as being too controlling (with good intentions), about caring about pets, basically out of anxiety, because I have trouble accepting neglect. And being too stressed from doing it all myself. It's hard for me to accept people caring for pets that they don't care enough about to do well for them. But doesn't rise to the level of reportable behavior. I don't know really how to handle that well, because it's like, what are you supposed to do? Run around with like a chicken, with your head cut off, trying to patch up all their shortcomings? That's what it felts like I did, until I felt like I was gonna pop, and became controlling. I guess I'm going to have to accept my limitations more on that.

Another thing is like, if I'm tired, if I'm stressed, if I'm going through some tough stuff, and need a little help, if I'm short, if I forget to say thank you. Every little imperfection triggers them, and how am I supposed to live life like that, where I have to be perfect, and can't have a bad day, a bad night, or anything like that? Where I can't even have my own needs sometimes? I dunno, I cut off my neighbor, and I'm going to have to work with my Dad here.

I can see how I can be more kind to him, and less controlling, but I'm going to have to accept his neglect and apathy more, and I'm definitely going to have to spend less time with him. I can speak up at the right time more, and in a more skillful way, but I can see how it could cascade pretty rapidly, whenever I have a hard time and make a mistake. Pretty terrible way to live life here. Especially when normally, I am pretty kind, considerate and appreciative.

[NarcsEverywhere]

My Dad has Narccistic traits and has been neglecting our pets, and my neighbor killed 4 cats and let 2 run away, and I think I triggered that. I don't really blame myself, because it's their dysfunction, to want control so much, that you'd abuse and neglect animals.

But, I'm totally realizing some of my own mistakes here, most of which I've already addressed and apologized for. Such as being too controlling (with good intentions), about caring about pets, basically out of anxiety, because I have trouble accepting neglect. And being too stressed from doing it all myself. It's hard for me to accept people caring for pets that they don't care enough about to do well for them. But doesn't rise to the level of reportable behavior. I don't know really how to handle that well, because it's like, what are you supposed to do? Run around with like a chicken, with your head cut off, trying to patch up all their shortcomings? That's what it felts like I did, until I felt like I was gonna pop, and became controlling. I guess I'm going to have to accept my limitations more on that.

Another thing is like, if I'm tired, if I'm stressed, if I'm going through some tough stuff, and need a little help, if I'm short, if I forget to say thank you. Every little imperfection triggers them, and how am I supposed to live life like that, where I have to be perfect, and can't have a bad day, a bad night, or anything like that? Where I can't even have my own needs sometimes? I dunno, I cut off my neighbor, and I'm going to have to work with my Dad here.

I can see how I can be more kind to him, and less controlling, but I'm going to have to accept his neglect and apathy more, and I'm definitely going to have to spend less time with him. I can speak up at the right time more, and in a more skillful way, but I can see how it could cascade pretty rapidly, whenever I have a hard time and make a mistake. Pretty terrible way to live life here. Especially when normally, I am pretty kind, considerate and appreciative.

[NarcsEverywhere]

Like, I think they felt degraded because I nagged them to treat their pets better, but didn't do it in a kind way, because I was so frustrated about it, I actually wasn't mean.

Sometimes I'd even just have a little anxiety and say something a little naggy. I did get pretty controlling when my one dog got diabetes and the other was getting old and needed encouragement to eat, and he was starving slowly, but still happy in some ways, so I struggled really hard to help them both, and my Dad was just mostly wanted to do his own thing, and they're his dogs too.

It was such a struggle to keep them in decent shape, and he was MIA, it was during COVID, so we didn't want to go to the groomer, so I became quite controlling as I got burnt out, from learning how to do all the grooming, learning about how to do insulin, and being up until 2am, hand feeding my dog, to try to get him to not starve. He helped a bit, but he just wanted to do the bare minimum all the time.

I really don't think I was coming from an unreasonable place. But, god, I actually am starting to feel bad that my behavior led to that. It's like you can't have any sort of standards of behavior that you hold them accountable for, they just get to do whatever they want, it's really sad.

It's also like, if you don't give them attention and affection, and praise, because you're having difficulty, or other priorities, they take that very personally. It's not my job to coddle them all the time. They can't always be the priority, screw that.

I just feel sick from it all, I know it's not my fault, but I still feel kind of guilty the more I think about it.

Anyone have any input?

[Riv3rW0lf]

I think most of us here were raised in a way that led to an underdeveloped narcissism. There is such a thing as healthy narcissism, and you have a right to exist and to call people out.

This is something my H has taught me through our years together.

Some. People. Are. Bad.

The reason we remain polite is because often, and I think this is healthy too : we consider it important to be respectful of others... We however have to learn to be respectful of ourselves too.

If you start feeling guilty, or like you are bad : listen to the voice talking in your head... What is it saying? You shouldn't tolerate anything from yourself that isn't nice... Treat yourself like you are your best friend.

If someone is neglecting animals and abusing them : it is ok to say something. I don't know where you live, but in some places, this is actually illegal. I used to live in a place where a dog could not be left unattended on a leash more than a certain number of hours, cats cannot be declawed, etc.

It is ok to care for animals. And it is ok to give a voice to them... They don't have it.

What is no ok is using violence. But being assertive and speaking your mind IS FAIR GAME. You have a right to your opinion, and you have a right to exist.

Not everyone has to like what you say. Not everyone has to like you ... You have to like yourself, and this starts by recognizing that you have a right to be.

I don't think calling out someone for being abusive toward animal is being controlling... It's being a decent human being.

[NarcsEverywhere]

Thanks for your response Riv3rWolf. I pretty much agree with this. I do try to be respectful and considerate. I'm just saying, we all have bad days, during rough times, right? We might get snappy, or short, we might be more self centered, stuff like that. I'm just saying, every time I got like that, which was under completely understandable circumstances, it would trigger them, because they're just so high needs, and intolerant, that they would then default to all their abusive behavior.

Yeah, I agree, I have a right to speak up. They don't have to like it. But, if it antagonizes the very behavior that I'm trying to avoid, it does seem quite unproductive. Even if it's completely reasonable to do so.

Yeah, I did have a lot of Narcissism growing up, but I started really treating myself well, after I healed from being with my exBPD, and most of it melted away. Now, normally when I boost myself up, it actually causes me to want to appreciate others more too, so I think it's healthy. Although, I think stuff going to your head a tiny bit is okay too, if it's not out of control.

I try not to beat myself up, but I think all the projection and stuff has caused me to take more responsibility than is warranted for my behavior. I'm trying to assign a reasonable amount of blame to people's behavior, not to judge, but to be honest about everything. But until I unwind all this, it's gonna be tough to see clearly.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Yeah, I agree, I have a right to speak up. They don't have to like it. But, if it antagonizes the very behavior that I'm trying to avoid, it does seem quite unproductive. Even if it's completely reasonable to do so.

Like you mentioned before, you cannot control their response
 

A goal for me is to be myself no matter what.

I know I am good inside. Generally speaking, I care for others, I am respectful and I have strong empathy. So most times, even when I snapped, it is still NOT abusive. And I can generally recognize when I hurt someone and apologize for it.

My objective is to be radically authentic. And detach myself from the other person's response.

If they start being abusive and hurtful, it is ok to leave room.

Their behavior might trigger FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) or C-PTSD responses, have you noticed it?

For me, THIS is what I need to work out of, the guilt of being myself. If they think they have a right to abuse, I think I can, at the very least, give myself the right to be tired and snappy without feeling overly guilty about it.

I noticed recently that some people are used to me being the calm one and when I am tired and less patient, they escalate the situation instead of giving me room to breathe. I now call those people out by stating what they are doing and clearly state my need : "I am tired, give me some space." A narcissist won't like that, but this is your right and if they can't respect it, you have a right to exit the situation by going into another room, or for a walk.

[NarcsEverywhere]

I mean, under normal circumstances, I kind of agree, you do the right thing, and hope for the best. But if you see the result is the opposite of what you want, it seems almost self destructive to do that. Being authentic and giving yourself rights is important, and not being responsible for other peoples poor decisions, is important. So I suppose it's not my fault, but at the same time, when it's something serious like me triggering more animal abuse, then I'd rather avoid that. Which is why, I suppose I've spoken up to them less and less about it, because it had an opposite effect.

Totally agree, I think it's my right to set boundaries, and I normally do. When I get screwed with, with all their abuse tactics, I tend to have a breakdown of that. I just can't depend on them whatsoever, because they use a listening ear to manipulate you, they use any help they give you, to try to get you to feel more and more obligated. I'm seeing through a lot of it now, and I need to see it for what it is, and not buy into any of it.

I do think I've been getting triggered by my Dad, but I've been so anxious, that I don't even get what's triggering me, I need to observe that more and slow down.

Also, I know I have a right to speak up for myself, and even to be short sometimes, and I actually normally know how to set healthy boundaries, just it always breaks down when I'm having a hard time and it can be hard to rebuild. And right now I'm having a really hard time, so it's hard to rebuild, but I'm trying. Right now I'm staying away a lot from my Dad and it allows me to rebuild my boundaries, but god I'm stuck in my room a lot.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I do think I've been getting triggered by my Dad, but I've been so anxious, that I don't even get what's triggering me, I need to observe that more and slow down.

Just the physical presence of my mother makes me anxious. I went to her house in November 2021 (the last time I saw her). I stayed there for a month with my children and I started having frequent nosebleeds from the anxiety. My mother said :"you still have that?" Because I used to have a lot of those when I was young, at her house... They completely disappeared when I moved out. It is a physical reaction to the physical and emotional trauma I endured in my childhood.

I don't know how your father was when you were young... In some cases, the close proximity with an abusive parent makes it much harder for us to set boundaries and heal ourselves, because of our trauma bond.

It's a hard situation to be in... Like you yourself mentioned, I do think it worth it for you to focus on increasing your independance and consider moving elsewhere, away from him. I understand this is not a short time possibility, and you are going through a lot. Just saying your trauma bond to your father might contribute to the severity of your other ailments, both physical and psychological.

The presence of my mother sure was.

[NarcsEverywhere]

Thanks for the input. I do think it will affect me for a while, but I also think I can get through it. I'm pretty good at dealing with trauma at this point and can even act polite when I don't feel that way at all, if it's necessary. But in the long run it's definitely a consideration. I'm hoping my knowledge can help me manage him better. Since I didn't even realize what was happening. I knew he had issues and such, and I was pissed off at how he treated me, but I didn't realize how messed up it all was and I was fooled by him too many times.

[Couscous]

My T told me that staying in contact with abusive family members slows down one’s healing dramatically. This is consistent with what Patrick Teahan has said here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=olqyOZnFRWM

[NarcsEverywhere]

I mean, it's definitely easier to be in a healthier environment. I don't disagree with you at all, I just know that I've gotten through a ton of trauma, and can handle a lot. I'm not even saying I don't want out of it. Just that I'm going to do the best I can here, including work towards more independence.

To me, I can minimize the impact he has on me, by picking only the most necessary/desired times to be around him, by basically spending less time with him, and watching for any abusive or manipulative behavior. It is stressful having to be more vigilant though and is kind of hindering me, so I get it.

[Couscous]

Have you ever lived on your own?

[NarcsEverywhere]

I mean, to be honest, no. My childhood was no good at all, and then I ended up with a Borderline for 10 agonizing years. I moved out at 18, and lived with a friend for 3 years, but that didn't work out and ended up back home.

I've grown a lot as a person and become much more responsible, emotionally healthy, and capable, but I haven't ever had that. I've worked, but it never panned out. Probably because between my Dad antagonizing my anxieties, and my Mom coddling me and acting like I was helpless, it really messed me up. I've always wanted more independence though, it's always a goal of mine, just life hasn't made it very possible. I'm trying my best to work towards that, and even making it a bigger priority now.

Technically, my Dad lives in my home, but he still does the driving. I do contribute a lot at home though. Although sometimes I've been in ruts and/or injured and done less. I'm in a fairly dependent situation, it kind of blows.

[Couscous]

The question that this raises for me, is what will you do once your dad is no longer on this earth?

[NarcsEverywhere]

I've thought about that a lot and is one of the main motivators to change things. I guess if it happened now, I'd get a roommate, and start taking cabs to places.

[Notwendy]

Nobody is perfect. It's not that we can't be flawed around a narcissist- everyone makes mistakes at some point. It's that we should not be emotionally vulnerable with them.

It's more effective to focus on the small changes we can make. Your living situation is something that works for both you and your father, even though he's difficult. It's not something that can be changed, at least not now, and not without great difficulty. Smaller changes- such as getting out more, carving out space for you to be alone in the house, these are doable.

The other side of feeling triggered and picked on is that- this would not happen if they weren't things you were emotional about. For instance, if I called you a pink elephant, it probably wouldn't bother you. You know you are not one. You'd probably think I was crazy to say that. But if your father picks on you for something you do feel badly about- then you will feel triggered. Using these feelings as a guide can help you decide to let them go or ignore it, or think, well maybe this is something to work on. You should not tolerate verbal abuse though, find some way to walk away from it. Headphones and listening to music can help tune some of this out if he's yelling. Go to your room, close the door.

Change happens best in small goals. Pick one goal- something that bothers you about yourself. Maybe it's to go out and walk more, or to begin to do the desensitization for agoraphobia. Can you go out for one minute. Then increase it to two. Only you know where you need to start.

Take the focus off your father, the neighbor- all these people who are irritating- they won't change, they are who they are, but shift your focus on you, and what you can do for self care.

[NarcsEverywhere]

Hey Notwendy. I mean, I'm realizing I'm going to have to be somewhat vulnerable even with my father, just to feel safe/sane in my own home. The reason why I don't want to be too vulnerable with him, is it seems like him knowing what I'm going through/care about most is used as ammo to hurt/manipulate me. It's like they're really tuned in to what I care about, and use it all against me. So, the less he knows, the less he can use it against me.

I actually haven't been verbally abused very much by most of the Narcissists I've been around, I suppose maybe it's my personality, that I'd realize that, and call them out and such. They might be able to get away with it, with other people though, I've seen how my neighbor treats other people and it's much worse, in a more obvious way. I think the fact that I am generally objective/honest and intelligent, can make some of the stuff not work on me. What most of them do, is disregard me/violate my boundaries, project, maliciously hurt me, gaslight, do the opposite of what I want most of the time, except when trying to pander to me in some way to suck me in.

Well, honestly, I don't take a lot personally, normally. But when I'm literally struggling through a back issue, or because I'm highly concerned for an animal, who is very vulnerable, because my friend committed suicide, because I am going through a memorial, am dealing with agoraphobia or grief. That's when it feels like they target me, and use a lot of manipulation tactics/abuse, and violate my boundaries. And at that point, my awareness is focused mostly elsewhere, and it's hard to defend myself against when I'm feeling vulnerable, weak or highly concerned about someone else who is in a lot of trouble. Also, if they are constantly trying to violate my boundaries, or walking on them, then I have a breakdown of mine and fall into codependency. Still, it's my responsibility to not fall into it, because it hurts everyone, especially me, to let my boundaries deteriorate.

My greatest issues are feeling an over sense of responsibility for others, getting too caught up in other peoples problems (and violating their boundaries because of that, and because of abandonment fears), being controlling out of reasonable fears (I think it's a bit much, but I also think it's reasonable to take certain things seriously enough to want to be more pushy about, especially when it's something serious like life and death). But at the end of the day, I fall into codependency, especially in the past year or two, even though I've gotten so much better at detaching, and not controlling, and empowering others.

Yeah, well, I agree, I'm going to focus on empowering myself, detaching, and focus on my boundaries, lots of self care, and such, as well as socializing with other people and my pets. It's hard to make sense of everything, I keep having so many doubts, and it's not possible to 100% know peoples intentions, so some of it, I just have to stop analyzing, and trust my judgment more. I've been feeling more suspicious of people, and sometimes even paranoid, and hateful, and these are out of character for me. At least I realize it, and  have been correcting it, but it really sets me back when I fall into that, or excessive self doubt.

[yellowbutterfly]

Have you read the book "Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get On with Life" by Margalis Fjelstad?

I am reading it right now and you might find it very helpful. I know I do.

[NarcsEverywhere]

I mean, honestly, I don't have much bandwidth lately, need to work through some emotions before I even consider reading a book. But, what do you find most helpful about it?

[Riv3rW0lf]

I mean, honestly, I don't have much bandwidth lately, need to work through some emotions before I even consider reading a book.

Just my two cents here but reading books about trauma, C-PTSD and borderline/narcissistic abuse is what helped me the most in processing my emotions. Books on those subjects are useful tools to help us work through our emotions...I personally find it much easier than on my own, and it unlocks some thoughts that I can journal about, allowing me to free a lot of internalized/repressed rage/anger/pain.

The PDFs of some of those books can even be found for free online.

Also, from what you mentioned about your mother/father/you dynamic, I would highly recommend reading the book Couscous mentioned a while back on Emotional Incest, I think she posted about it under the Ressources Boards (Book Club). 

[NarcsEverywhere]

Okay, Riv3rW0lf, I get your point and I'll consider that when I'm ready, not quite ready, but I'm warming up to the idea. I guess I'm kind of scared of it? I'm scared of a lot of my emotions lately, because there's so many of them, even though, I've gotten so much better at dealing with them. I'll look into those books more sometime.

Side note. I'm starting to be more considerate of my Dad, and telling him that I expect him to be more considerate of when and how he speaks to me. I guess, because our boundaries broke down so much during different hardships, we really started taking everything personally, and getting quite upset at each other. So, taking this time for myself and reestablishing our boundaries is quite helpful. It's all kind of foreign to me, I feel like I'm kissing his ass, and being extra nice, and it's kind of uncomfortable for me. I like to be kind and all, but I've been kind of bitter lately, especially with him. I've been like this more in the past though.

So I guess what I'm saying, is my behavior has definitely not been the greatest too, which is hard to accept, because most of the time lately, I've felt very blameful of him.

[Couscous]

What do you feel has been preventing you from learning to drive, or do you have a physical disability that prevents this?

[NarcsEverywhere]

Well, first off, my agoraphobia has been super severe since COVID, gonna have to get past that before I can get to that point. I get decent anxiety in vehicles as it is, and sometimes have trouble concentrating because of my issues. I suppose I could build confidence with that, because it's not like I'm helpless to do things, might need to time things well though, especially at first.

I tried to learn to drive twice when I was like 18-20, my mom and my friend both tried, but I was a nervous wreck back then, and honestly did pretty poorly at it because of it, and just lacked any sort of confidence to keep pursuing it.

I suppose, if I decided to do that I would need to work on agoraphobia, and anxiety, since I sometimes get quite nervous even when other people are driving, and I'd need to get out more to learn. Also I think paying a driving school would cost money, which I don't have, because having my Dad teach me is literally the worst idea possible, since he has zero patience and just antagonizes my anxieties.

Anyways, I totally see where you're coming from with your concerns and ideas Couscous. I just think my priorities right now need to be improving my anxiety levels out in the world, and improving my mental health, so I can get to the point where I can considering such things. Trying to do all that now would be a leap too far I think, and just sabotage my progress. Generally you want to build up to things.

[Couscous]

I suppose, if I decided to do that I would need to work on agoraphobia, and anxiety,

I think you’re on to something here. The first step really is deciding. 

[NarcsEverywhere]

I feel sad today, thinking about a lot of my recent friendships, that I haven't really gotten over the loss of yet, and my Dad. One woman kept escalating her affections for me (my friends mom, of the one who killed himself, we became close after), and it's like she's escalate the affections always and kept sending so many mixed signals that really triggered me. I'd ask her for stuff, and she'd not give it to me, or she'd say one thing and do the opposite, and I know no ones perfect here, but it happened so much, that it really messed with me and caused me to feel so confused.

Like she'd say she looks forward to spend another year with me, then ghosts me for 5 months, or not do simple things I asked her, or ask me for advice, then ignore it when I gave it to her, or ignore very personal emotions I shared. And in the end she said she wants to be forever friends, and then ghosts me finally. She never even contacted me first, more than once, and acted obligated one time before she ghosted me. Which I can totally see someone not wanting to be my friend and maybe my behavior wasn't what she wanted, but she kept escalating her affections at the same time as taking with the other hand.

It just feels like I've been so messed with by everyone I've been close to recently. And I'm remembering when my back was hurt and my Dad ran into me pretty hard, and I was in so much pain, so I didn't process the whole thing, but if I remember correctly, it's like he stopped for a few seconds, and said "what" and was smiling and kept doing what he was doing. I know he was super stressed from caring for me, but god, I just can never imagine doing something like that. What is wrong with people?

I don't expect perfection, or parity in reciprocation, or even perfect consideration, I don't expect to never get hurt, but straight up maliciousness, or screwing with someone really bad for your own gain, or sadistic glee, all seems really sick. I can even understand if you lost your temper and really hurt someone, it's not right, but it's understandable. But calculated manipulations, and disregard, it just seems so sick.

I don't think I'll ever see my Dad the same way, I'm trying to spend a bit of time with him, because I can't stand to be in my room anymore, but it's hard to. I talked with my sister, and it was nice to vent to her, but I was constantly arguing with her, and she'd flip flop on believing my Dad was malicious and then not. Because honestly, who wants to believe their Dad is like that? I don't. But it's there.

I'm just venting because I'm tired, and short on people to vent to, so anyone that's reading, thanks for listening.

[NarcsEverywhere]

I'm not a complete sucker, I've called out manipulations many times with my Dad, and seen it in the people who have abused me. I don't buy into love bombing as much as I used to, and watch out for over the top praise, but they sort of wear me down, you know? Until I don't have the energy to fight back anymore, until I think my reservations are just me having trouble with intimacy or me not taking enough blame. I'm just going to be honest, these people are really freaking good at this.

When I'm analyzing the manipulations, I'm really impressed with how pervasive it all is, but it's also shamelessly obvious, if you're looking for it. They use the fact that you have a heart and feelings against you, I guess because they don't have much of those things, at least not in any sane and emotionally open/healthy way?

It's hard not to feel like a victim, and let fear and hatred take over right now, and all that comes with that, which is nothing good. I'm really open to the idea of any books that could help me work through the trauma of this, and also on how to work with them. Because it seems like my Dad gets so easily triggered, especially from our previous arguments, that I'm going to be dealing with that a lot.

He's really good at this. I'll call him out, and he'll gaslight me into blaming myself somehow, even when I call out manipulations along the way, he'll keep twisting it until somehow he's not at fault. I'll get exhausted, and eventually some of his guilt trips, or accusations will make sense. I think I'm going to have to start saying the truth, sticking to my guns and then walking away, instead of trying to convince him of anything. And I'm gonna have to stop blaming myself just because he gaslights me.

I normally try to be non judgmental and understanding, but sometimes you've just gotta put your foot down and be assertive, you know? You've gotta call stuff out or set boundaries, not to judge the person, but to judge the behavior as neglectful or insensitive or cruel.

Gonna keep focusing on myself and my life and try not to get wrapped up in my Dad much, I realize we're just going to have a much more shallow relationship now. I don't really trust him with most of my personal feelings, and it just seems like the more they know, the more they have to use against you anyways.