BPD Radar?

[Notwendy]

I don't think people know the whole of it. I think I am sensitive to these things due to my own experience.

My BPD mother's friends have told me  "your mother is so wonderful" and she is - to people outside the family.

When I saw these dads on their own with kids and didn't hardly ever see the mother, I didn't ask where the mother is. I know that could be a difficult situation. It may feel more awkward for you to make the excuses as you know the whole of it, but it's likely others don't even have an idea what may go on, unless it's something they experienced in their own family and even then, maybe not.

I don't think anyone outside my immediate family knows all of what has gone on and we don't see any reason to change that. A few of her extended family have realized there is more going on then they realize.  They did say they noticed a few red flags but otherwise they had no idea. They thought my mother was a bit eccentric, or other odd behaviors but not more. I'd be willing to bet most people don't know what is going on when someone makes excuses.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Pook075]

I've been separated for about 6 months now and finally starting to peek at dating apps, which is an absolute nightmare.  I have noticed that I'll glance at a profile and think, "This gal is absolutely nuts...and I absolutely want to meet her."  Sometimes it's what they write but a lot of the time, it's just how they're posing in the photo(s) or little things in their profile. 

I quickly realized that I'm not ready for dating yet, and when I am ready I definitely don't need to seek that type of love.  But why do I get so excited at the possibility of someone I clearly have zero business talking too?

I don't know, just some self reflection and a hard truth, I guess.

[zachira]

I think for others to get that there is abuse going on they have to have experienced similar abuse themselves or be knowledgeable about abuse because of their life experiences and/or line of work.I also realize most people are not in touch with their feelings and are overwhelmed by their own emotions, so they cannot be empathetic when hearing about another person's pain since they can't deal with their own pain.

[PeteWitsend]

I think for others to get that there is abuse going on they have to have experienced similar abuse themselves or be knowledgeable about abuse because of their life experiences and/or line of work.I also realize most people are not in touch with their feelings and are overwhelmed by their own emotions, so they cannot be empathetic when hearing about another person's pain since they can't deal with their own pain.

Yeah.  from what I've seen people  who haven't been in a r/s with a BPDer, grown up with one, or otherwise been subjected to a rage have trouble understanding that pwBPD will fight just to fight.  They WANT conflict.  They need it. 

The advice you get from such people is meaningless; it just serves to stir the pot more.

[thankful person]

Yeah.  from what I've seen people  who haven't been in a r/s with a BPDer, grown up with one, or otherwise been subjected to a rage have trouble understanding that pwBPD will fight just to fight.  They WANT conflict.  They need it. 

The advice you get from such people is meaningless; it just serves to stir the pot more.

I agree with this too. My wife openly tells me that she tells other people (that I don’t know so well) that I’m an unsupportive partner. I don’t know if she tells them how I could better support her, she refuses to tell me this because, “you should KNOW!” And the other greatest accusation is that I’m “always starting arguments”. I expect she’s told other people that too. It was only through my work on here that I realised that if she says, “Child will be too sick to attend nursery on Wednesday” and I say, “well you never know, she might be better by then”…  that is her idea of me “starting an argument”: I now realise that my sharing of such thoughts is “invalidating”, so I try to limit my sharing of my thoughts, especially the hopeful ones which don’t align with hers. This has certainly helped my wife to be calmer, but she does still say that I always start arguments.

[waverider]

The advice you get from such people is meaningless; it just serves to stir the pot more.

Its worse than that, it is completely devaluating. How do you feel when they say simplistic things like. "I wouldn't put up with that", "why dont you stand up for yourself?", "You're better off without that kind of $%^", "Why don't you leave?" , "You made your choices". You end up wishing you'd never mentioned it. So you cover up.

[waverider]

And the other greatest accusation is that I’m “always starting arguments”. I expect she’s told other people that too. It was only through my work on here that I realised that if she says, “Child will be too sick to attend nursery on Wednesday” and I say, “well you never know, she might be better by then”…  that is her idea of me “starting an argument”: I now realise that my sharing of such thoughts is “invalidating”, so I try to limit my sharing of my thoughts, especially the hopeful ones which don’t align with hers. This has certainly helped my wife to be calmer, but she does still say that I always start arguments.

But how invalidating is it to you not to be allowed your opinion simply because it is different, and most likely more realistic?

[Notwendy]

Its worse than that, it is completely devaluating. How do you feel when they say simplistic things like. "I wouldn't put up with that", "why dont you stand up for yourself?", "You're better off without that kind of $%^", "Why don't you leave?" , "You made your choices". You end up wishing you'd never mentioned it. So you cover up.

These relationships are difficult to understand from the outside. People may wonder "why don't you just leave" but it's more complicated than that.

As an adult, I asked my father questions like this sometimes as well, before I understood the complexity of the dynamics in these kinds of relationships. I perceived my mother as the "problem" - that's what it looked like from the outside. "why do you put up with this behavior".

Even though the question was out of concern, (and not knowing), his response was sometimes an angry one. It makes sense it felt invalidating and not supportive, but there's no way we could know that. I think I understand some of the complexity better now but truly- nobody knows all that goes on between two people.

I think the best kind of support would come from a therapist who is familiar with these situations.

[PeteWitsend]

These relationships are difficult to understand from the outside. People may wonder "why don't you just leave" but it's more complicated than that.

As an adult, I asked my father questions like this sometimes as well, before I understood the complexity of the dynamics in these kinds of relationships. I perceived my mother as the "problem" - that's what it looked like from the outside. "why do you put up with this behavior".

Even though the question was out of concern, (and not knowing), his response was sometimes an angry one. It makes sense it felt invalidating and not supportive, but there's no way we could know that. I think I understand some of the complexity better now but truly- nobody knows all that goes on between two people.

I think the best kind of support would come from a therapist who is familiar with these situations.

I know how frustrating it can be to try to communicate with a parent and get angry denials. 

As I've grown into adulthood, I think of all the advice or lessons I could have learned that I missed out on because among my parents or grandparents, "you don't talk about those things" or "shield the kids from this stuff."

And then we hit adulthood and we're busy and it turns out there was never another opportunity to share the information.  so it's gone. 

My dad is similar for different reasons; he's been in a LTR with a woman I suspect is disordered or definitely not all there.  She seems to have a vendetta against my mom (even though they never met) and my siblings and I.  She actively stirred the pot in my marriage w/BPDxw by calling her and badmouthing my mom to her and other rumors and what not.  She herself came from a dysfunctional family; siblings were alcoholic and one was institutionalized. 

When I ask my dad questions that cut too close to his relationship, like why he won't do something or why he did something, he usually gets angry and evasive, even cutting contact for periods of time. 

I still don't know what he sees in her or why he's put up with her for as long as he has. 

[thankful person]

But how invalidating is it to you not to be allowed your opinion simply because it is different, and most likely more realistic?

Funny you should say that as the child is absolutely fine and most definitely going to nursery tomorrow. I’d never thought about validation before joining bpd family but I’m grateful to get lots of it on here. I think with bpd you can improve things your end but there will always be eggshells. I recently moved one of my Saturday online students to Sunday because my wife gets in from slimming world on Saturday and it’s her one social occasion of the week and she wants to report back to me straight after and get my undivided attention. As she was talking I was taking it all in, D3 asked for a snack and wife said, “no”. Knowing she’d been asking for ages whilst I was busy, and it wasn’t long since breakfast but I had been intending to offer her an apple. So as wife was talking to me I offered D3 the apple and she took it. My wife snatched it away saying, “I said NO!” And started having a go at me about not giving her attention and also giving D3 a snack when she’d said, “no”. (She did give it back to her). Sometimes I don’t exactly JADE but I can’t resist pointing out that if she were to share that story with anyone, in which world is it ok to take an apple away from a hungry 3 year old who has asked so nicely and been given it by the other parent? Fortunately I manage to avoid such outcomes most of the time. But yes, I’m back to walking on eggshells. On reflection, I wanted the child to have the apple, so at that point in time there was nothing I could have done better, had I stopped to ask my wife’s permission (like I used to), she still would have been angry that I’d changed the subject and was talking about snacks when she’d said no.

[waverider]

When I ask my dad questions that cut too close to his relationship, like why he won't do something or why he did something, he usually gets angry and evasive, even cutting contact for periods of time. 

I still don't know what he sees in her or why he's put up with her for as long as he has. 

That is because he has no control and cant answer without making up excuses, so is frustrated and evades, we have all been there

[waverider]

Funny you should say that as the child is absolutely fine and most definitely going to nursery tomorrow. I’d never thought about validation before joining bpd family but I’m grateful to get lots of it on here. I think with bpd you can improve things your end but there will always be eggshells. I recently moved one of my Saturday online students to Sunday because my wife gets in from slimming world on Saturday and it’s her one social occasion of the week and she wants to report back to me straight after and get my undivided attention. As she was talking I was taking it all in, D3 asked for a snack and wife said, “no”. Knowing she’d been asking for ages whilst I was busy, and it wasn’t long since breakfast but I had been intending to offer her an apple. So as wife was talking to me I offered D3 the apple and she took it. My wife snatched it away saying, “I said NO!” And started having a go at me about not giving her attention and also giving D3 a snack when she’d said, “no”. (She did give it back to her). Sometimes I don’t exactly JADE but I can’t resist pointing out that if she were to share that story with anyone, in which world is it ok to take an apple away from a hungry 3 year old who has asked so nicely and been given it by the other parent? Fortunately I manage to avoid such outcomes most of the time. But yes, I’m back to walking on eggshells. On reflection, I wanted the child to have the apple, so at that point in time there was nothing I could have done better, had I stopped to ask my wife’s permission (like I used to), she still would have been angry that I’d changed the subject and was talking about snacks when she’d said no.

This is the issue, you sacrifice your own validation so as not to invalidate them all the time. Your child in this instance also learns that you have no authority in the house, and so do you. Your child is also taught that if you bully you retain control, as your wife did. The behaviour is then copied and passed down.

[thankful person]

This is the issue, you sacrifice your own validation so as not to invalidate them all the time. Your child in this instance also learns that you have no authority in the house, and so do you. Your child is also taught that if you bully you retain control, as your wife did. The behaviour is then copied and passed down.

Waverider, I completely agree. I’m sure you can imagine I was hugely controlled by my wife for many years, I did what she said etc to keep the peace. When our first child arrived I realised things needed to change that’s when I eventually found bpd family. I have come a long way from being a person who would do what my wife said without questioning it. Back then I would have either just ignored the child asking for the apple or asked my wife’s permission even though I knew she would say no. I didn’t want my children to grow up seeing this, but I accept that it is still harmful for them to see the dynamics between us sometimes (thankfully this kind of thing doesn’t happen too often, maybe monthly?). I have become more assertive and less scared of my wife. But yet I’m still trying to keep the peace mostly because of the kids. What do you think I should have done differently?

[Notwendy]

It's interesting that we see things from our own perspective with relationship to the BPD issues. The apple scenario also involved the child.  I can see it from both ways though. If one parent says no to something and the other parent allows it - then that undermines the first parent. I can see why that didn't sit well with your wife. However, this issue is between the two of you. If she feels you undermined her, the appropriate response is not to assert your authority by taking the apple from the child. Now if it was something harmful to her, of course take it away but the emotional outcome of taking away an apple from a 3 year old is more detrimental than to let her have it. She doesn't understand what is going on. The child didn't do anything wrong. It feels punitive to her.

It would be good if it were possible for the two parents to discuss this later in private, and somehow come to an agreement, but that is not the usual situation with BPD. Had you intervened right there, it would probably have escalated- worse scenario. You chose to avoid that- which was the better of the choices for the situation.

In my family, we didn't get the message that the bully maintains control. For us it was an odd two tiered expectation for behavior. Maybe because my BPD mother was so affected by BPD, that her behavior didn't fit the idea of bully. Yes, it gave her control but it was more that she lost control. The tier was- for BPD mother, she could do anything, say anything, and get what she wanted. There is no way that behavior would be tolerated if any of us did it. Rather, we had to be well behaved and even a slight transgression seemed to be the crime of the century- anything we did that might upset BPD mother was considered a major transgression.

I know that spouses walk the line of putting the marriage first and that the kids should not feel they are more important than the marriage. But the kids need to feel they are loved and their feelings are validated. The message we got was that only one person (BPD mother )mattered.

Because my mother's behavior was so obviously not appropriate, I didn't consider doing any of it. I didn't see being a bully as being a good thing and didn't copy that.  So I role modeled my father's behavior. He seemed like the "normal" parent an in many ways her was. If the "normal" parent is enabling, then the children can also copy that behavior. I had to work on these tendencies. The child isn't at fault but unfortunately they may be caught up in the parents' conflict with one parent not intervening in behaviors that can affect the child.

[thankful person]

Thanks not Wendy. You’re right, there would have been no point in discussing the apple incident after the fact. My wife knew she shouldn’t have snatched the apple away which is why she gave it back. She is generally dedicated to motherhood and our children, though still so little, do seem very secure and confident following all the breast feeding, bed sharing, and spending so much time at home with her. I understand your thoughts on my undermining her. Usually when the children ask for snacks they want something like crisps or biscuits, so if it’s not “time” for that then the usual understanding is we offer them fruit instead and if they accept it then we can assume they were hungry. I think my wife said no mostly because she was busy talking to me. At least when the children are older I’ll be able to discuss any such incidents with them later, though I’m not exactly sure what I am going to say. Interestingly, as my wife considers herself recovered from bpd, she intends to be open with the children when they are old enough to ask about her self harm scars. I think she will tell them about the bpd herself (her own perspective of it), though I don’t think it will be helpful for me to use this label when talking to them about her unusual behaviour. Is there anything that would have helped you to better understand and cope with your mother’s behaviour when you were a child?

[LifewithEase]

I found myself somewhat envious of a parent who can take the kids out to “give the bpd parent a break” or whatever. Because my wife has so much control that I rarely spend time with the children without her.

I’m ashamed to tell anyone how badly my wife treats me sometimes.

These two passages resonate with me. When the kids were younger it felt like maternal gatekeeping, even though I'm amazing, competent, engaged and loving father. Now she uses money and time (she has a ton of days off) to win other the kids.

And my early teen kids are so enmeshed that I don't even think they realize the BPD behavior is not normal. Sad, but true. I'm always trying to find the words to explain to them in real time.

As for my shame based on how my wife treats me. I'm working on that.

[waverider]

What do you think I should have done differently?

Not much you can do other than be aware of how insidious it all is. No matter what we do we cant completely quarantine all these behaviours

[Notwendy]

Waverider is correct- I think though- the best thing is to hold on to who you are and reduce the enabling behaviors.

Our children learn from us in ways beyond what we say. Children are also magical thinkers, they don't have the full understanding of these dynamics. I had two main examples of how to behave- and I didn't want to behave like my BPD mother. My father was the "good guy" hero- to me and he had many positive qualities. There's no question of who was the more functional role model. However, to "be good" in our family was to be and do what BPD mother wanted in the moment, and so I brought these enabling and co-dependent behaviors into my world as an adult. It was through working on them that I began to understand my father's role in the dynamics- not from a critical way- but to begin to see this in more depth.

It comes down to the other advice for you- stand up for your job, your piano talent, your time with the kids, to the best that you can. Self care is important. You will then role model this for your kids and they will know it's OK to do this too.

[Joaquin]

I’ve been on the other side of this. It wasn’t until my good friend with a BPDw clued me in to the fact that I have an uBPDw that I started to feel a sense of control again. I will always be grateful to him for that.

I’d suggest going through the 9 diagnostic criteria with him instead of just giving a diagnosis.

[zachira]

You might find helpful the book "Raising Resilient Children with a Borderline or Narcissistic Parent".

[Joaquin]

I’m sorry thankful person. It hurts me to read your experience bc it reminds me of pieces of my own with my uBPDw. There was so much Ive had to hide or make excuses for to my mom and it made me sad bc my mom is a truly wonderful, unconditionally supportive mother but I felt like a hostage where I had to give everything to please my wife instead of the people who actually supported me and made me feel safe and loved. The wedding planning was a nightmare. My wife intimidated me into changing everything for her against my wishes and I had to keep making excuses to explain it to my family. It almost got to the point where my own brother might not have been able to attend

[waverider]

One final thought. Make sure there is at least one aspect of your life that you stand up for, come what may, as that is your identity. Bending here and there on others is fine, but always bending across the board to satisfy someone else leaves you with a totally bent and weakened sense of self, and subsequently a weak role model.

[SaltyDawg]

One final thought. Make sure there is at least one aspect of your life that you stand up for, come what may, as that is your identity. Bending here and there on others is fine, but always bending across the board to satisfy someone else leaves you with a totally bent and weakened sense of self, and subsequently a weak role model.

This is awesome advice.  I was losing my own self identity trying to please my uBPDw.  Back in June, I learned to do self-care, and regain my own identity back - best damn thing I have done recently. 

She didn't like, she attempted suicide to prevent me, I waited two weeks and did it anyways [without her permission], she actually learned to enjoy me getting my identity back - so many conundrums in the borderline behavior.