having the sex talk with troubled teenager

[JoeBPD81]

Hi everyone, long time without posting... I'm surviving an 8 year relationship with a woman with BPD and her two kids. I've been the father figure for those kids for all these years, although things are complicated in all fronts.

The son I want to focus this post is 16 years old. He hasn't been diagnosed with BPD, but he shares some of the difficulties of his mother. But he has been diagnosed with Asperger, agoraphobia, long term depression, and a behaviour dissorder...

He lost a full school year where he barely left the room, or changed clothes or shower. He was commited to a mental hospital 3 times in that year, because his lack of interest in life ended in refusing to eat or drink. After a very hard year and a half, he's going to school and to a day-care facility, and then he spends the rest of the time resting from that effort. He atends all this after much  begging and barganing, and threating with us.  Just to give you a general picture.

His psychiatrist has told us that a male in the family has to have the sex chat with him. Because he's freaking out about erections and his body. To the point the doctor is worried he might harm himself.

He's never been interested in other people, not girls not boys. He says he is bysexual. But that's just what he thinks about himself, which we accept, I tell you just to let you know he's not planning to have sex or a RS with either. He has 0 contact with friends.

So I'm not sure at all what he needs to know, what I can tell him that won't be too much information or too disturbing for him.

My parents never talked to me about sex, they were religious, and the just told me about it being a sin and only acceptable inside marriage, to have children. That was my sex education.

I was married before, and I had plenty of sex. But now with this woman, we maybe had some sexual intimacy 3 times in the last 5 years. So personally, I'm mostly frustrated about my forced celibacy. Just to put you in context.

I've read many pages about how to aproach the topic with kids or teenagers. But none of them told me what to talk about. I've been loosing sleep with this. During these years, any time we start a serious conversation, he leaves the room, or gets angry and violent. So communication is hard to begin with.

So, any tips, advice, or thoughts are very welcome.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Notwendy]

He sounds like he is overwhelmed from the effort to go to school. That may be about all her can manage and he's not emotionally available to talk more about things.

I can understand the psychiatrist's point, but also wonder why your son is so upset about the changes in his body to the point of self harm and if he's expressed other fears.

It's actually just biology. At 16, his body has gone through most of puberty, he has a functional adult reproductive system. Since you are also an adult male, you know exactly what he's experiencing. I wonder if- since you were told it was sinful, do you think he's fearing that as well?

My best guess is that he doesn't need a talk on where babies come from, because at 16 that's well known. If he has access to the internet, he may have been looking at all sorts of things out of curiosity, and he hears his peers talk at school. If I were to guess- and it's just a guess- as to what may be troubling him, it might be fear and shame for his feelings, what he's doing, what his body is experiencing and he needs reassurance that this is normal for a 16 year old boy. I would guess he needs to hear from you that you love him and are not judging him. Maybe letting him know that you experienced the same feelings and biological drives at 16 that he is will reassure him that he's OK.

Socially, he may be a bit freaked out by what he hears and sees at school, and his own response to seeing an attractive girl, or guy if that is going on. Is there any religious shame if he is attracted to guys?

I think I'd start with asking the psychiatrist what the main concerns are- is it shame, is it social, is it fear of disapproval? One idea is that your son may feel more comfortable reading about it than talking about it. Maybe there's a book the doctor can recommend. Your son may not be emotionally available for a long talk but let him know he can talk to you and that you care about him if he feels he wants to. I'd start with asking the psychiatrist for what is mostly concerning to your son. 

[JoeBPD81]

Thanks a lot for answering!

I spoke to his mother and she tells me she knows exactly what his fears are. So I need her input first.

There's no religious sentiment at all. Both kids say there's no God and have no respect for the Church at all. Both their mother and I have a Catholic upbringing, but she's a budhist now (not doing much about it), and I barelly go to church myself. My values are catholic, but I'm open minded.

His troubles come from being a child in an adult body. Also, having teenage peers when he feels like a child. His school mates talk about girls, and sex, when he wants to talk about Dragonball and fart jokes. When the brothers (16 and 11) talk to each other, it's mostly baby talk, they repeat the same words again and again, and laugh a lot until it suddently changes to a vicious fight.

His mum says he's freaking out about having an erection, and that he's very uncomfortable having it and wants it to go away.

For the last, I don't know, 5 years, he has always had a hand inside his pants. We told him that it's normal to have curiosity, and that we understand he likes to touch himself. But that it is something you do in private, that it's very unpolite to do it while you talk to other people, or in public areas. We told him all this to no avail. Also that he needs to wash his hands more often if the hands are there most of the time. Just recently he takes his hands out of his pants for some minutes when he hears someone entering the (living)room. So maybe he's starting to feel some shame about it.

The biggest problem with him is that he's never honest. He tells us or the doctors anything he thinks we need to hear to leave him alone. He promises the psychiatrist to do this or that, and right outside the office he tells us "You know I'm not doing any of that, right?" We know this, and after many lost time, the doctors at last believe it too. They can't take his word for anything. So we never know when he's telling the truth about anything. He might have talked about this just to divert the attention from something else. We (parents, teachers, doctors...) don't know what he really fears or what's going on, because he's never interested in telling the truth. There's never have been a time when he says "this is serious, I'm gonna tell the truth". His mum believes him more than anyone (of course) and the whole family we put our time and money to go in one direction, and then he confesses it was a lie to get this or that.

We never told him it was wrong to like guys or girls. I think we are very open about that. He expressed once that he was worried that we expected him to have kids, and a partner and that what he wanted is to live alone. He was relieved when we told him he can live the life he wants. That we are interested in whatever makes him happy. We had never told him that we expected this or that from him. And both say that they would never have kids (too much work!). He finds every woman (singer, actress...) ugly, and has only expressed curiosity about what we find atractive in men. As in "Is this guy hotter than this other one?" And he never says these things about girls.

The psychiatrist said he could be the one having this talk. But he doesn't want to steal that moment from me. Big favor he's doing me! I wasn't there when he talked to his mother about this. If this is possible, and the kids is seriously mentally ill, he should have done it already. I can't have all the possible repercusions in mind, giving how his brain works.

Thanks for listening.

 

[Notwendy]

His troubles come from being a child in an adult body. Also, having teenage peers when he feels like a child. His school mates talk about girls, and sex, when he wants to talk about Dragonball and fart jokes. When the brothers (16 and 11) talk to each other, it's mostly baby talk, they repeat the same words again and again, and laugh a lot until it suddently changes to a vicious fight.

His mum says he's freaking out about having an erection, and that he's very uncomfortable having it and wants it to go away.

For the last, I don't know, 5 years, he has always had a hand inside his pants. We told him that it's normal to have curiosity, and that we understand he likes to touch himself. But that it is something you do in private, that it's very unpolite to do it while you talk to other people, or in public areas. We told him all this to no avail. Also that he needs to wash his hands more often if the hands are there most of the time. Just recently he takes his hands out of his pants for some minutes when he hears someone entering the (living)room. So maybe he's starting to feel some shame about it.

The biggest problem with him is that he's never honest.

He finds every woman (singer, actress...) ugly, and has only expressed curiosity about what we find atractive in men. As in "Is this guy hotter than this other one?" And he never says these things about girls.

The psychiatrist said he could be the one having this talk. But he doesn't want to steal that moment from me. Big favor he's doing me! I wasn't there when he talked to his mother about this. If this is possible, and the kids is seriously mentally ill, he should have done it already. I can't have all the possible repercusions in mind, giving how his brain works.

Thanks for listening.

 

There is a lot going on here. I think a problem is not being honest- which isn't a usual thing for kids on the spectrum- they tend to tell you what they are thinking- without a filter. I hope it's still possible to connect with him about what she does share- and build trust.

I think there is some social distress when an adolescent boy appears excited in public and it's obvious. I have heard that tends to get better when the hormones even out more and they feel a bit more in control. Surely there are ways to manage this - I'd have no idea - not ever had that happen personally but I assume thinking of something not appealing can change the mood of things? Maybe there are some strategies her can learn.

He seems to have the emotional level of a younger child and that can be upsetting to not be in line with his peers. As to who he is attracted to, if he's at the emotional age where boys think girls have cooties and vice versa, girls might seem gross to him right now but hard to know if this will persist.

I think the doctor wants to give you the opportunity to have the man to man talk. Perhaps the doctor can do a more biology based one- what is actually happening to his body physically and why. Maybe it would help to hear that from someone who can present it in a scientific way. You can communicate the emotional part- how you felt when you went through this - not TMI but something like "yes, this happened to me in class too at your age. I was so embarrassed" and then make that connection emotionally? I'd also ask the doctor for specific advice- seems there's a lot going on emotionally here.

[JoeBPD81]

Thanks for your words 

We know lying is not a usual thing for kids on the spectrum, that's why it took so long to get help, not until the 3rd stay at the hospital they realized he was feeding lies to all the doctors. He won't lie to spare your feelings, but he lies to get what he watns without batting an eye. Even with something you're seeing with your own eyes. After 8 years of living together I could say that truth is not a value in their lives, both kids, they say what they think they need, not what they know is true. Another isue is that after saying it, often they start believing it was true. And they get very mad that we don't believe it. Believe me, parenting is a nightmare when you are trying to help someone that never tells the truth.

Some years ago, the older kid even realized he was doing that. He told us, he tells us a lie, and then he believes it, and then he can forget the worry about the truth. It was about something practical, don't remember exactly what. Something on the line of "I tell you I made my bed, and then I don't have to worry about fixing it".

Thing is, he believes he has to lie to survive. He has to put on a mask in order to ba accepted by the others. He's been doing it his whole life. To fit in. He mimicked other kids. And most people told us we were crazy to think he might be on the spectrum. With his friends turning into teens he didn't understand at all, his bubble broke, and he gave up.

His mom told me to hold the talk for this week, because is a stresful week for him. I'll ask him if he is worried about it happening in public. But I suspect is more than that. This school year after missing the last, he has started in a new school where their priority is to have a good environment, bullying free, with teamwork and such. It's a bit far away, but it was recomended and it seems it's a good fit, so far.

It's a kid that gets infinite stress from shoe laces or putting on a coat, or a sweater that is itchy...Things that are just uncomfortable to most people, to him are unbearable. So now his own body is doing something uncomfortable to him. So I think this bothers him even when he's alone.

We'll see...

[PearlsBefore]

You keep mentioning that your wife says he's freaking out because he has an erection and he's repulsed/upset by it and therefore you need to have a sex talk with him.

He's had his hand in his pants for five years, and if you think back to when you were younger than he is...I think erections are pretty common knowledge before you're 16 even if you're not sexually aroused. It seems highly unlikely that it's the source of his problem so much as...it sounds to me like your wife is projecting some of her uncomfortableness or emotions onto him. It's possible he's slower in development than I'm thinking, but I think I'm reading your description correctly.

Basically I think you're at risk of being set up by your wife to interfere where it's not necessary, wanted or helpful to go at "her" speed. Keep in mind there's a very high correlation (not necessarily causation though it's been theorised) between BPD and either "molested in childhood" or "raised by a BPD"...if your wife's mother wasn't very BPD, there's a relatively high chance your wife has some shameful secrets she hasn't fully resolved herself (also explaining the frigidity).

Now, that said, I'm in favour of education and frankly the best way to have "the talk" is to never have "the" talk - just try to be subtle about spending the next six months dropping all the advice and diagrams and explanations he's going to need...but definitely don't fall into this bizarre modern trap of making it a discrete event. It's a process, and it's not meant to be formal - children learn it from watching cats mate, puppies be born, explanations of why a cup is necessary in field games, "locker room" humor, made-up didactic stories of your fictional co-workers' problems, a hundred different hints and tidbits gathered over a long time period...not scheduling 25 minutes for a Q&A next Thursday on the sofa.

[Notwendy]

 PearlsBefore swine makes a good point here- I was looking at this from the angle of a stressed out teen on the spectrum dealing with the fact that he's emotionally and socially younger than his peers and emotionally younger than the changes in his body. I assumed the distress over erections was that they occurred in inopportune times, causing social embarrassment.

But it also may be that his BPD mother is projecting her own emotional distress over this- for a few reasons- puberty signals that the child is soon to become an adult and so may separate from the parent ( this actually starts earlier but physical changes are reminders of this) or she has her own issues related to this as mentioned.

Perhaps the psychiatrist would be the best guide on what you should do. I agree though-this kind of information isn't necessarily done in one scheduled awkward talk but a series of conversations over time. I think it's intrinsically related to the relationship- if a child is comfortable asking the parents their questions (with boundaries) and age appropriate answers- usually beginning with a young child asking "where do babies come from" to asking for advice about dating and so on. They may feel more comfortable asking their health provider for information about topics like contraception.

 I don't know your son's cognitive/emotional level. At 16, most teens have figured this out, but if he's emotionally and cognitively younger, he may be at a different stage of understanding.

I didn't think about the idea of the unthinkable- are you sure nobody did something to him? With this level of emotional distress over sex and his body, I hope you have ruled out any possibility of this.

[JoeBPD81]

Thanks guys,

supposedly this came from his psychiatrist, not his mom. She, indeed, was sexually asaulted as a child, and she's been in some abusive relationships before meeting me.

A therapist told us that many people in the spectrum are asexual. But in her case, nature or trauma, both could be the cause. We were very active the 1st year of our RS. She's also anorexic, so she has a lot of body shame issues.

She might have overeacted or "over-cared" when S16 told her he was uncomfortable. And he sometimes takes advantaje of her worries. As in playing the victim to get away from his duties. He's confesed many times that his suicide threats were false only to make us give him what he wanted (skip school, skip a family visit...). So if he can use suicide, it's not above him to use anything. As I told you, it's hard to help him when you don't know what's true (we have to take things seriously, and put things in motion, and then it might have been a lie all along.)

Before he was 7 and before I was in their lives, SHE had some suspition about a school janitor who gave candy to the kids and had them come over to his shed. He was fired because of this, but no evidence of abuse was found. We tried to get some info from the kid, but never said anything sexual about it.

When he had his first public hairs, he would show them to anybody, us, aunts, his brother... And I'm sure he's been having erections before this year. He talks about genitals, same as his brother, as something funny to say, that makes the adults react with disgust or shock. Same as poo, farts, smelly feet...

I think what triggered his concern is a roomate he had at his last hospital stay. This boy, a bit older, bragged about his sexual encounters, and how often he masturbated, and since when... He had a lot of questions afterwards, and he said he was curious about that, as a topic, but that it was all disgusting. He has a lot of curiosity about medicine, and seems to show the same kind of curiosity. It seems that he hasn't made his peace between what he knows about biology, and his own body.

Of course we have talked before, and comented on questions he had, or things that were said on TV... But it doesn't seem like he's getting a clear picture of all, or that he is rejecting it.

As a kid, nobody explained to me what an erection was. I never asked anybody either. All I knew is that it seemed to go away if I didn't pay it attention. I don't remember any personal experience about people noticing another boy having one, and making fun about it. I saw that on films, but never happened to me or on my watch.

Back to S16, his cognitive/emotional level is a mistery. They can't meassure his IQ, because its very high in some areas and too low to evaluate in others. He can talk and argue about things he's interested in, sometime complex things, (mostly monologues) and then spend a month just saying baby words, he calls his brother "chicken", so he can be repeating "chicken, chicken, chicken..." for half an hour. It's very hard to keep a conversation with him, as he ussually doesn't answer to the same thing you are asking him about. If you try to steer the conversation to something serious, he just leaves. It's very puzzling because he can be mean and cruel and say things that sound like adult things, and also look like he's a 2 year old in a 16 y/o body. He responds better if we tak to him like he's a little child (I can't manage to do that often, but his mom can). I expect him to tell me "hey, I'm not retarded!" when we talk to him like we would do to a much younger kid.

We still don't know if his issues... See, appart from psycological ones, he has some neurological, and genetic dissorders. Some might be degenerative. So separating from us is not a fear she/we have. He might have to live with us forever, becoming more and more dependant.

I started the thread to ease my own anxiety over talking to him. On the one hand I feel pitty and compassion about all his difficulties, but on the other hand, I have an everyday experience of him being mean, rude, cruel, arrogant, disobedient, impatient, unwilling to help anybody, abusive to his brother and mom... I never met him while he was a sweet kid, so I don't have an image to go back to to feed my love for him as a son. I deal with a lot of guilt about this and a lot of her rejection towards me comes from this, that I almost never say any positive thing about the kids. I praise any little thing they do: "yay! you remembered to take your coat this time!" But I can't think to myself "S11 is a great kid, because 2 out of 30 days this month he didn't forget his coat at school". And I could thing "poor thing, he always forgets it" if he wasn't completely angry with anyone else when he realizes he doesn't have the coat, like " I don't have it because the dumbass of mom forced me to take the blue one instead of the black one. Don't think for a second I'm going back upstars to look for it, I don't care". They, both kids, get so violent that your body wants to fight back, not get all compassionate. Am I making any sense?

So I use my energy to remember to not fight back, don't escalate things. But there's never a peaceful day, when I can think "how lovely and beautiful are the kids". Never a time when I can think "If I talk, they will listen". So it's really stressing to have anything to say to them. And I was already a guy that barelly talks.

Anyway, sorry for rumbling about. Have a great weekend!

[Notwendy]

It looks like there is a lot going on for this teenager- his own mix of emotions/delays and a BPD mother with her own dysfunction.

It also sounds to me like your son has heard plenty of "the talk" and at 16 I think most teens know that information already. I also think it's awkward for you- as you don't know what topic to discuss- the "talk" can be many things- contraception, dating, relationships, and not all at once. We have to respect their own privacy too. Also by 16, most teens have been going to their primary care provider alone - not with parents in the room and this gives them the chance to ask about contraception, and other concerns. They don't want to talk about everything to their parents.

I think it would help to get some more direction from your son's psychiatrist and also, if you feel uncomfortable discussing these topics with your son, you could ask the doctor to address your son's concerns himself. I think he wants to give you the option, but it may also be better if he does it and you can tell him that.

[JoeBPD81]

Yes, a lot going on... Sometimes I'm at a conflict with the mother, and she has a lot of issues, and brings me really down, and if I'm talking to someone it's like, and I haven't even told you about the teenager... And don't get me started on the younger one! She drives me crazy, but she's the most rational of all three.

I don't think S16 is interested in learning about relationships and contraception. He wants to do the minimum in life to live alone and to get people to leave him in peace. Other people only anoy him.

[Notwendy]

It sounds like a lot is going on for your son. My own thoughts are to consider suggestions from his psychiatrist about any "talks". Even if he doesn't want to spend a lot of time around people, and even you, surely you matter to him. He knows you are there if he has any questions.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[JoeBPD81]

Of course, I take seriously what his psyquiatrist sais. He's supposed to be one of the best of the country for teenagers.

About mattering to him, I wish I felt it. I feel they like me, as you would like a fun pet who doesn't need a lot of care, also they care about what I provide and what I can do for them. A pet, the service, and a drawer of money. That's how I feel the kids love me. I never had anyone in life that I ask for any help and they say no.  I say, "please hold this shopping bag while I tie my shoelaces", and they say "pass!" And when their mother or myself need more serious help, it's the same. We've done 2 movings together, and they didn't lift a finger, not even hold a door open, or just stay out of the way and stop fighting among the boxes. Mom fainted once and hit her head on the toilet, and was down for 2 hours, after she recovered conciousness, she was dizzy and cried for help. The kids kept playing videogames, and telling the other brother to go help, but none of them got up. It was a very scary moment, I got home some hours later and I found her crying after she crept to a bed. None of the kids, after finding out what happened showed any remorse or guilt.

S11 is genuinelly happy to see me when I get home. But he's ready to aks me for something before I cross the door. He craves any kind of attention and affection. And he takes things to the limit everytime. A hug is nice, if he doesn't let go of the hug until you are really mad about asking him to let you take out your coat, or eat lunch, or anything, and him ignoring you and laughing, turns any hug into a hazarous situation. I really wish I could value his affection, because he's the only one happy to see me at home. But he ends our patience several times a day. So I expect trouble from the moment I see him.

S16's first therapist said he wasn't capable of love, that he sees people as things to take advantage of. She described a complete psycopath. Of course we cut this therapist lose, and searched for other explanations. But I've been hoping to see any kind of concience since he was 7 and I haven't seen it. I keep the posibility open that I'm the one who doesn't know how to look. Because it's very scary. You know?

Their lack of...human decency added to the distance SHE puts between us (many talks about leaving and living somewhere else, no intimacy, no closeness, no sleeping in the same room, no dates, no meals together, not showing care about my life...) has made me feel weary, and put on an armour, and never really felt part of the family. I'm a "concerned friend of the family" who gives away his chance to be with someone who could love me (and the chance to have peace, the chance to make ends meet comfortably, the change to do a lot of things in life...), just to be there to help. And ocasionally, I get asked to be a father and to get involved in deep matters, when most of the time I'm just ignored. And I feel it's not fair. There's a small world where I got asked "why aren't you more involved?" and an infinite number of people who ask me "Why the h are you still there?"

Not that having a talk is too much to ask. It's just one thing. But I'm so tired already...