Just a rant pre-breakfast with MIL

[Riv3rW0lf]

We were invited to breakfast at my in-laws this morning. I haven't seen them since Christmas, and I do think it important for my children that I show my face there once in a while. H will of course be there, it's part of my new boundaries with them.

Of course, knowing I will be in the mist of MIL is a bit challenging this morning and my mind keep going at possibilities, what I could say, except I feel much more assertive than I ever felt these days, with everything that have been going on in my professional and personal life.

And I keep thinking how she never said thank you for her gift. The woman, who always request we thank her, or will ask, after every goddamn diner, even when you said "thank you it was good" during diner, how you liked her freaking diner, because she wants yet another thank you, this woman, never ever bothered to reach out to me to thank me for her Christmas gift.

So this morning I am daydreaming about telling her : "I'm sorry you didn't like your gift." To which she might answer :"why do you say that?" And I could answer : "Well you know since you never bothered to thank me, I figured you probably didn't like it." Petty right?  This is the kind of thing she does. I won't go there of course. It would only stir a bad energy for everyone. Which is why, I guess I am doing it here !

Once I needed their help to buy something via Amazon for my H, because I didn't want him seeing it on our account and credit card, it was for his birthday, and they were buying something for the children anyway if I remember right. I had put considerable time into thinking about the perfect gift for him. Anyway I wired them the money right back from my personal account... so.. you know, they didn't pay for it. It was to H, from me, and me alone. I didn't know back then how MIL can be.

Well the lady came to visit, and she has the freaking nerve to ask my H if he liked the gift and ask why he didn't thank her?? Like the gift was her idea?? They had it delivered with a freacking note about how the gift was from them! Signed with their names only! It was the first and last time I was asking anything from them. I still ruminate about this. Still wished I'd have said something right there : "Did I somehow forgot to wire you all the funds back for the gift?" Old me stayed silent, new me won't anymore.

I'll act nice. But honestly, she better be too. I don't feel like the same Riverwolf I was a couple months back and I don't have any patience left for her little mind games. No way am I leaving there with her projections and confusion this morning. I will stay true to myself and won't accept her  .

Rant over!

For the sake of discussion, how do you guys handle people who don't show gratitude?

[PinkPanther]

When it comes to the pwBPD I keep in mind that they test boundaries a lot. They are uncomfortable with drama free living so they seek it out with their behavior. It’s also a way to see how far they can go with you. How sad it must be for your MIL to believe she has to create so much tension.

My pwBPD is my mother. She can be ungrateful and manipulative in this manner if she feels like she has no power.
As a general rule if thumb, I don’t gift my mother with expectations. In other words, if I feel that my gifting her will bring about any hard feelings from myself because of her behavior, I don’t do it. I am really this way with anyone. I know that sometimes we feel as though we have to be a bit more flexible with some people compared to others but I don’t feel obligated to give anyone anything. When I give it is because I value that individual experiencing the pleasure of being thought of. I don’t make a big deal out of it. If they don’t say thank you I just pretend not to notice and move forward with that in my mind on if I want to gift them again or not. I also think about the motivation of why they are ungrateful and this helps me process it without being frustrated.

Even outside of BPD people can be very ungrateful and honestly I have fallen into that category a time or two with gifts.

[Notwendy]

For the sake of discussion, how do you guys handle people who don't show gratitude?

By only giving, sending, something that I don't have any expectations about. This involves considering cost, and effort of planning the gift. I have sent food gifts that BPD mother might throw out, or give away. If I send flowers, she may or may not like them.

What is a gift anyway? It should be something we can give freely. If we give to charity we don't know who it goes to exactly and the person doesn't thank us personally- but we feel good about it because we know it's doing some good somehow for someone.

One reason we feel resentment is if we over extend ourselves or expect a person to act a certain way and they don't.

I still put the kind of thought and care in a gift that I think someone will like. BPD mother likes flowers, so I pick nice flowers but in a price range that I can manage the possibility she would toss them out because I don't like to waste money. If I sent her an extravagant arrangement, I think it would upset me to know she threw it out.

I once planned a get together with her and her relatives. I planned it and also paid for all the food. I was glad to do this for her and wanted to do something special for her. Well, she got angry at me and at first refused to go. She later went but didn't seem to appreciate it. Here I learned something- to not plan or pay for something for her that is contingent on her actually attending. Because, she may not even attend or appreciate it. Now, I would have enjoyed seeing other people there, but actually, I felt my efforts were not appreciated at all.

Why do I send her anything? Because, I feel better that I did and because it seems to be the right thing to do. It wouldn't feel right to be the Scrooge in the family at Christmas. So send what you feel ok about and not with any expectations. You didn't know that your MIL would take credit for your H's gift, but now you do. So next time, if you want to do something like that, you'd enlist someone more trustworthy, like a friend, to do the surprise.

I don't mind inviting BPD mother to lunch or dinner, if she decides to follow through and come with me to the restaurant, then great. I don't care if she thanks me or not. But I know now to not pre-order  or plan for a meal in advance as she may or may not decide to attend.

If you do something nice for MIL, do it because you feel you want to do something nice but only do as much as you aren't concerned about how she responds.

[Methuen]

Well the lady came to visit, and she has the freaking nerve to ask my H if he liked the gift and ask why he didn't thank her?? Like the gift was her idea?? They had it delivered with a freacking note about how the gift was from them! Signed with their names only!

RW you had the right to be upset.  This would be a shocking betrayal.  

Now that you know who she is, you know she can’t be trusted and you do things differently.  

My first question is: how did your H react when he found out the truth?  There’s a record of the money transfer - so there’s evidence of her lie.  

That she would and did do this - says everything about the kind of person she is.  But what did your H say?  And how long ago did this happen?  You are still bothered by it.  Is there anything that retriggered you?

As to your question about how we navigate people who don’t show gratitude, I personally have learned to keep an emotional distance. 

I

[Riv3rW0lf]

If you do something nice for MIL, do it because you feel you want to do something nice but only do as much as you aren't concerned about how she responds.

Yeah, I wasn't angry that she didn't say thank you, to be honest. It's the irony of her behavior regarding gratitude, and then how she herself acts, it's the hypocrisy of it that triggers me. I didn't mention it this morning. I think my negative feelings this morning did not come from resentment toward the lack of gratitude, but rather from the envy of giving her a taste of her own medicine. Again no, not because of resentment, but just because I can. She has been mean and hypocritical with me in the past, and part of me now wants to give her back her due. But I won't. Because I can control myself. This is not me. This is her and her energy.

So in the end, I didn't and was amicable all morning, but also didn't overextend kindness toward her, and stayed true to myself. I feel overall ok ! She tried to go into territories that are mine, that I didn't want her to pollute with her energy. She started asking about how I started martial arts, and I knew she would start talking about how she took judo with her son for a while (albeit she never was athletic and it didn't last long), and I simply don't want to engage about something I love this much with someone like her, so I did "mental judo" and got FIL in the discussion and mentioned my new projects for my company, and how I'd be more busy now.

I realized I have a choice to engage or not on certain subjects. Some subjects are safer than others, some are private to me, and they aren't welcome in it. It's my secret garden. And I don't engage with them on those subjects anymore.

It felt good to listen to me for a change, and not try to please !

[Riv3rW0lf]

My first question is: how did your H react when he found out the truth?  There’s a record of the money transfer - so there’s evidence of her lie.  

That she would and did do this - says everything about the kind of person she is.  But what did your H say?  And how long ago did this happen?  You are still bothered by it.  Is there anything that retriggered you?

Actually, I received the gift before their visit. And the note really angered me. Didn't mention it to H to keep the surprise. We, however, did discuss the note after he opened his gift. And he said he wasn't surprised.

Then the visit happened, and she brought it up. So he said : "sure, thanks mom." Which REALLY pissed me off. He looked at me, and I was biting my tongue, and his eyes were basically telling me to cool off.

Then we had another discussion and he said something along the lines that he knew it came from me, but that's just who his parents are and he didn't see the point of going into it, because they won't change. It did bother me. So he basically told me, then now you know why I don't ask anything of them, and you will know better than to ask for their help in the future.  

So...he wasn't surprised, gave in because he didn't care mostly, and for him what matters the most, is not that she believes or not that she was part of the gift, it's that we both know the truth. For him, it was more important to keep it light. After all he recognizes the gift was from me, because it truly was a nice gift from someone who really knows and gets him. And so, to him, the only thing that mattered was the love behind the gift, and the rest was just background noise. Writing that down, I can really see his wisdom here !  

For me, I have a hard time letting go because of the principle... But then, it's not like I can control them. I didn't know, but now I do know better.

I think he learned, over time, not to focus on generating drama, and just closed his eyes on those kind of behaviors, and not engage with them, nor ask for their help. This was much harder for me to achieve, took me a while to see who MIL was.

She isn't abusive, but she certainly isn't safe. And now I keep my distance. She is nicer when I am further away!

Seeing her is what triggers me. It's like part of me want to show her, an eye for an eye, vengeance. I don't, this is not who I choose to be in my life, but it doesn't mean part of me don't think about it. I don't feel safe with her. So I put boundaries in place where I only visit with H now, and don't engage actively about myself with her. I get her to talk about herself the more I can now, it's an easy way to stay under the radar.

[Notwendy]

Even if the dynamics in a family are disordered, we often don't see them as when someone grows up with them, it's our "normal". You may be more aware of these dynamics in your H's family than he is. To him, "it's just how Mom is" because in context of him growing up, it is.

I am more aware of these kinds of dynamics due to my BPD mother's behavior being so obviously disordered, one does notice and I have wanted to learn about these dynamics. There is some dysfunction in my H's family but it is more subtle than in mine. His family would still be in the realm of what we'd consider "normal". Even with attempts to "normalize" my BPD mother's behavior, we could tell it was not.

Unless we are aware of it, we tend to just get right into our family dynamics with our parents. With your H, he may not even notice it, but you do and it's irritating. I felt the same thing. I could see that there were all kinds of unspoken expectations of my H, who jumped right in to try to please them, and I could see the co-dependent patterns in the family. He had no idea as it's what he knows as normal with them and his parents were doing what they learned in their families.

And I was irritated seeing him do this but who was I to talk, considering he also visits my family with me.

This is your H's family and he will cope as he chooses. Now that you know this side of MIL, you can act with caution around her.

[Couscous]

Your MIL is not the problem. Your H is.

So he basically told me, then now you know why I don't ask anything of them, and you will know better than to ask for their help in the future. 

Essentially he blamed you for his parents’ bad behavior, and then shamed you for asking for their help.

So...he wasn't surprised, gave in because he didn't care mostly,

They crossed a boundary and he gave in because it’s his knee-jerk reaction, betraying you in the process. Placating his parents and keeping the peace at all costs is the name of the game, even when it’s at your expense. No wonder you were so upset!

Now, he didn’t have to tell them off or reproach them, but he should have said something to indicate that he knew the truth. He could have done this by making some kind of joke, for example, by saying something like, “Nice try mom”, then giving you wink, or even a kiss, and perhaps thanking his mother for helping make the surprise possible.

But I understand that the thought of doing something like that would probably fill him with terror and I do sympathize with him about the plight he’s in, because he is in a disloyalty bind. I really think he could benefit from reading Silently Seduced and watching Ken Adam’s interviews.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Couscous,

For me, blaming and shaming has a lot more to do with the intention behind the words than the words themselves. It's hard to tell via text/forum, but my H wasn't blaming, nor shaming me. He was well aware of how inappropriate his mother behavior was, and he understood it well. He validated how I felt, and he was basically telling me exactly what I had to accept with my own mother :

"That's who they are and they won't change. So we have to work around it a bit sometimes. So let's just not engage them in gift giving anymore."

My H generally stands by our decision as a couple, and he does call his mother out on her behavior. Just this morning, he did again. It is quite evident that our family, and me in particular, come first for him. I don't have a single doubt about it and I trust him to handle his mother as he sees fit. He did take the time to remind me what mattered most and he is right : it's our bubble. The rest of the world can believe what they want, in the end, it simply doesn't matter, because we both know the truth and how we decide to handle things to make it simpler for us on the moment.

I do ruminate it, but not because of H. I ruminate it because I didn't say anything. H would have supported me if I had. If I care, then I have to stand up for myself. He is not my knight in shining armor, I can speak for myself. He just didn't care as much, because yes, he is used to it. But why put oil on the fire? I actually agree with him that in the grand scheme of things, it truly doesn't matter.

When I truly couldn't stand up for myself : he always did. But generally speaking, he talks for himself and he expects me to speak for myself as well, and will support me whenever I do. All in all, it's a good deal.   

[zachira]

It is so normal to ruminate about people who mistreat us and who we are stuck with having in our lives because they are close family members. We know from experience that expressing our frustrations at length with someone like your MIL will make things worse. I do think it helps to keep whatever you say to your MIL very short and too the point. The fewer the words, the more likely you are to not have your words twisted by your MIL, just like good campaign slogans are often so effective. I am glad you have your husband on your side.

[Notwendy]

"That's who they are and they won't change. So we have to work around it a bit sometimes. So let's just not engage them in gift giving anymore."

I do ruminate it, but not because of H. I ruminate it because I didn't say anything.

From my own experience with BPD mother, actions are the better route than words. It may feel in the moment that saying something is standing up for yourself but it's more likely to be projected right back at you. Words don't resonate with my mother. She disregards them. It is possible that you H knows that words don't work with his mother and so has decided to go with actions.

You see what your MIL did with the gift situation. The response- to no longer involve her in gift giving is the action to manage the boundary. I have learned that sometimes, not saying anything to my mother, and just taking action is the more effective way. It's not an action that involves something on her part- I don't have to discuss it with her. It's simply a decision on my part. You don't have to tell her you won't involve her in gift giving, you can decide not to.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Notwendy,

Yes, the wise, calmer part of me understands that, and this is why I often choose to hold my tongue in those kind of situations.

I think the rumination comes from another part that I am observing more and more, the part that wants to mimic her mother, the part that wants drama, wants to dive in in her emotions and fight people.

I think we all have this part inside of us, and I am learning to accept it is not going anywhere. What matters is that I now gained enough maturity to no let this part rule me anymore... Instead of letting her take action, I come here to write and rant  

So I wholeheartly agree with your reading of the situation. And I do believe my husband learned by trials and errors how to manage his parents...how to give them enough without losing his independence and autonomy.

On the good side, I was able, during breakfast with them, to not accept her projections this time around. I kept feeling good with myself, overall, minor some small details, but it didn't last a whole day like last time. Only a few minutes and I shook it off. I do believe I am getting better at this... And for some reasons, this new found strength truly seems to be coming from my new training, I'm just not sure how exactly it is working out this way. But as long as I am calmer and more in control, I don't think it matters.

[Riv3rW0lf]

It is so normal to ruminate about people who mistreat us and who we are stuck with having in our lives because they are close family members. We know from experience that expressing our frustrations at length with someone like your MIL will make things worse. I do think it helps to keep whatever you say to your MIL very short and too the point. The fewer the words, the more likely you are to not have your words twisted by your MIL, just like good campaign slogans are often so effective. I am glad you have your husband on your side.

Thank you Zacchira,

I don't engage much with her anymore on anything personal. It seems to give her an incentive to try and please me instead of being rude and judgmental. Like she is trying to gain my trust back. I know better than to give it, so I think keeping this line is what I will be aiming for.

I think walking this kind of sensitive line is only possible because she is a MIL, and not a sister or mother...

I am glad my H is there as well.