Asking for advice about how to approach BPD mother's house and belongings

[Our abuse recovery guide]

It's predictable- BPD mother's relatives made plans to go to her house and make a list and she "didn't feel up to it" on that day.  

And, Golden Child seems to be claiming some of the most valuable things in the house. My H thinks I am being "too nice" as I have said I am not interested in them which now makes me second guess this, but I also don't think he understands the kind of disordered drama that could result in making more of a deal about it. GC is closer to my mother and I think there's been an arrangement between them already as I always expected. However, I did have a boo hoo moment recalling how I felt as a child when BPD mother favored GC. I mentioned this to GC who told me that I was the one who distanced myself so this is the result. Ouch.

Then I got over it when speaking to a nurse who was updating me about BPD mother's care and mentioned she yelled at her and realized that there's nothing of enough value to get into more drama over but still, discouraging to recognize the potential for things to get ugly. BPD mother has given some nice things to my kids over the years though, it's not as if we have no heirlooms, but I was a bit shocked at GC's insistence over some items. But there's also a high emotional cost to material things from my parents that I don't want to be involved with.

[Notwendy]

It's predictable- BPD mother's relatives made plans to go to her house and make a list and she "didn't feel up to it" on that day.  

And, Golden Child seems to be claiming some of the most valuable things in the house. My H thinks I am being "too nice" as I have said I am not interested in them which now makes me second guess this, but I also don't think he understands the kind of disordered drama that could result in making more of a deal about it. GC is closer to my mother and I think there's been an arrangement between them already as I always expected. However, I did have a boo hoo moment recalling how I felt as a child when BPD mother favored GC. I mentioned this to GC who told me that I was the one who distanced myself so this is the result. Ouch.

Then I got over it when speaking to a nurse who was updating me about BPD mother's care and mentioned she yelled at her and realized that there's nothing of enough value to get into more drama over but still, discouraging to recognize the potential for things to get ugly. BPD mother has given some nice things to my kids over the years though, it's not as if we have no heirlooms, but I was a bit shocked at GC's insistence over some items. But there's also a high emotional cost to material things from my parents that I don't want to be involved with.

[zachira]

It sounds like in some ways things are going as expected. You knew there would be drama, and you would be unable to predict all the hurtful things that would happen with the disordered family members and the distribution/storage of your mother's things. You are doing a great job of weathering the storm and dealing with how disordered family members have to hurt others to avoid how flawed they feel deep down inside. I hope that the distribution/storage of your mother's things will soon be over, and it sounds like it will within the next few months because the house has to be sold to pay your mother's bills. What do you think are the best ways to protect yourself from Golden Child's hurtful comments, your mother, and the rest of the disordered family members in the meantime?

[Notwendy]

What do you think are the best ways to protect yourself from Golden Child's hurtful comments, your mother, and the rest of the disordered family members in the meantime?

I think there are other dynamics going on, where Golden Child has some financial concerns that are driving this. I also suspect that GC was promised an inheritance that is no longer there and so the drive to take some valuables is in context of some need there.

I think GC is supportive when discussing difficult situations with BPD mother but also aligns with her and so will not be supportive of my feelings when it comes to any items she owns, so one way to protect myself from hurtful comments is to not discuss my feelings with GC.

[zachira]

Notwendy,
You are right that you will not get any validation from GC and to decide not to discuss your hurt feelings with GC. I truly believe we are on the path to staying safer and healing when we recognize that we cannot share with certain people how they have hurt us.

[Notwendy]

I agree. Although GC has not done anything specifically hurtful to me, I know that there is enmeshment with BPD mother and also some financial need. I have not ever had expectations of BPD mother. It's just that seeing it potentially happen is an emotional experience.

I think it's a good thing that these are just items- not property like real estate. I know you have had to deal with that and the flying monkeys Zachira and that is a much bigger deal.

[zachira]

Seeing it happen is indeed an emotional experience. We cannot always prepare for how we are going to feel when our disordered family members hurt us in unexpected ways. Take your time doing the things that help you to process the hurt experiences as they come up and the anxiety about now knowing what is going to happen, just knowing some things will hurt the core of your soul. Of course you know at an intellectual level that the GC getting your mother's things as mine did, says nothing about your value, and it still hurts.

[Notwendy]

Of course you know at an intellectual level that the GC getting your mother's things as mine did, says nothing about your value, and it still hurts.

Yes, and I think that finances are partly driving this

It's possible that for some items, their sentimental value is greater than the sale value or the other way around.

I think this is where we can meet in the middle and get some items appraised. It's been a long time since any of them were appraised, if ever.

[zachira]

If you do get an appraisal of some of your mother's belongings, you may be quite surprised at how little they are worth. Most of the younger generations do not value antiques and old things anymore, and what were once very expensive items are often difficult to sell and their value is often reduced many times over what they were once worth at top value. With my family challenges, I have been involved in appraisals with different appraisers. Even the very best appraiser, is not going to waste a lot of time looking up the value of many things, as it is too costly, and it is rare to be surprised at how little some things are worth. You can also do your own research on line to get an idea of what your mother's things are worth. Unfortunately, you may be dealing with lots of anger from your mother when/if she finds out that some of her belongings are not worth a lot of money.
Your thinking about getting some items appraised makes sense. Yes, the sentimental value is likely higher which makes it so sad when the person who cherished the belongings does not get them. In my case, neither of my siblings cared about my mother's things; they just wanted to have everything to feel like the winners. My mother and I shared an appreciation of fine beautiful things, and she very much wanted her belongings divided up between her children, and my siblings took everything.

[Notwendy]

My mother and I shared an appreciation of fine beautiful things, and she very much wanted her belongings divided up between her children, and my siblings took everything.

That is so heartbreaking and something I understand as I am sentimental about certain items. While our perspective is understandable, I also think that this situation has had an impact on GC as well. GC has been promised some items and I think was hoping they'd have financial value.  BPD mother is the one who claims they are valuable but there hasn't been a recent estimate done.

You are correct that the sale price is also determined by the market for the item, and so we don't know what that could be. It's also possible that BPD mother may need to sell items for her own financial needs and they belong to her first.

For many items, I think a search on ebay will show an estimated value. If something is potentially of value, then we can get an estimate done.

[zachira]

How are things going with your mother's relatives who have taken over managing emptying your mother's house? Would it make sense to let them know what you would like to have or would that lead to your mother being given the list and making sure you don't get anything? Would it be possible to offer to pay for the things you want? Just trying to help here and realize you may not want to do any of these things knowing you will likely be put through more heartbreak. My heart goes out to you knowing how painful this whole process can be.

[Notwendy]

My relatives are on board with helping me. I asked BPD mother to tell me what she wants done with her items and to please let me know. She said we can figure it out and I said please be specific as I don't want to have that decision and she said she'd decide. Then she talked about how everyone moved her and she had no say in what was going on and acted all confused ( which she's not - she controls things). Hopefully I will get some clarification from her but it's best to keep expectations low.

[zachira]

I am little confused as to why you are asking your mother what she wants to do with her things, as it seems when she deals with you she likes to make things as difficult and confusing as possible. Could it possibly make more sense to have her relatives who got her to go to assisted living to be the only direct contacts with your mother regarding what is going to happen to her things? I finally had to hire a lawyer to deal with my NPD sister because of how dire the long term consequences would be unles she had to deal with somebody she respected and wanted to look good in front of like her lawyer and mine. I am in no way suggesting you hire a lawyer. It is just when you are the target/the scapegoat of your mother's frustrations, she is not likely to do anything that will solve the problem of what to do with her things just continue to make matters worse. I agree it makes sense to have low expectations. At the same time, if your mother's relatives ask you what you want and you tell them, you might get some of those things.

[Notwendy]

I am trying to avoid a conflict with GC. The relatives don't want to decide who gets what. It's been unclear about what she wants to give to GC so I have asked her to be clear about what she wants to do with them. She's also talked about having an estate sale for some items and so I am hoping to know which those are.

I know that the rest is up to her, and she will say/do what she wants.

[zachira]

Maybe you could tell the relatives what you want and be clear that you want GC to get anything GC wants. If there is an estate sale, you can bid on the items you want if they are in the sale. I really have very little hope for your mother doing anything other than what she has always done when she brings up her belongings and asks you what you want. She will probably behave worse than ever if you try to discuss with her what to do with her belongings. The memories of the ugly words can hurt for a lifetime, and your mother knows how to hurt you to your very core in the worst of moments.
I can see why you would want to avoid having any conflict with GC because of where it could go and how long the ugly feelings could last that the GC could have towards you. My GC NP sister felt entitled to my brother's car even though he had made it clear before he died that he wanted our other brother to have it. My other brother was willing to give the car to her if I agreed. My NPD sister claimed she deserved the car because she had made the most monetary sacrifices to help with our dying brother, which paled in comparison to what my other brother and I had done to help our dying sibling in his last months. My NPD sister was angry at our dying brother for not paying attention to her when he was on his death bed and could pass away at any moment. I hope things go as well as can be expected with GC and GC is not as impaired as my NPD sister who holds lifetime grudges when she does not get her way which is one reason why I am NC with her. It is so hard to keep the peace with disordered family members. You know your family and what is best for your peace of mind, values, and most of all your tender heart.

[Notwendy]

Since I am the one picking up any items, they will be in my possession first. I hope ( but as you say may not happen) BPD mother will specify who gets what if she gives them to us. Some items have already been designated to GC. The problem is the ones that are not and I know GC wants them- to sell.

There is a financial issue driving GC to get whatever possible. I know GC cares about the relationship with me, but when there is need, I think the need drives this and there's less sensitivity to feelings. I also think GC has the perspective of the favored child and so may feel more deserving.  Even if I don't want a lot of items, I don't know if I am OK with them all being sold. It's possible my kids would like something as a keepsake.

Anything already designated to GC- that is settled and I will make sure GC gets them. For the undecided ones, if there are any, I think it would be wise to get something of assumed value appraised. Assumed, because I have already seen some items like this being sold for a lot less online. So rather than have GC assume value and have hard feelings, I feel it's better to get them appraised. Since I supposedly will have them, then I can do that.

I was already OK with some items already being designated to GC. I assumed GC wanted them for sentiment but I know now that the plan is to sell them.

So let's say something is sentimental to me and it's half the value of the not sentimental item, I'd rather GC get the higher value item and sell it than to take the lower value sentimental one thinking it is worth more. I think it will be easier to reconcile undecided items if we know their sale value, since we both aren't deciding on sentiment alone.

Also, BPD mother may wish to sell them for herself. These are her items to do that with if she wants. I think she will do this with larger items like furniture.

[zachira]

How did GC get certain items designed for GC? Why are there no items designated for you? Am I understanding correctly that GC can ask mother for what GC wants and you can't as your mother will surely say no?

[Notwendy]

Sort of. CG has looked at items and asked for them but to be fair, BPD mother has given some items to my kids and so I think the ones that CG has claimed so far are fair.

What has happened now is that CG has claimed  additional items that have not been designated to anyone. I was a bit shocked at how "grabby" the claim was. I am ok with what was already designated but a bit surprised at this next thing. I would like for BPD mother to designate who they would go to as I don't want to be in any dispute with GC.

Originally, I thought we were both pretty chill about this. Then, as GC went for more, I got emotional. Looking at things from a sentimental viewpoint, for most items, it didn't matter to me who got what. There are a few things I wanted but some I am not personally attached to. If GC was, then I am ok with that.

But then, I realized the idea wasn't for keepsakes but to sell, which means items will not be kept or passed down. Rationally, I know that anyone can do what they want with something, but I think there are some things my kids would like to have. So now I am looking at the idea that I may need to buy something either from BPD mother or GC  if I want to keep it in the family for now. The wish to have something designated to me is emotional too as I didn't plan on selling anything.

The shift from sentimental to financial changes things. Rather than see something stay in the family with GC, I am also considering if I want to see something completely gone. Once there's an appraisal, I think the decision about what to do would be clearer.

I see financial transactions as being a bit cold, but it may just come to that. I have to work within my own budget as well, but somehow making it financial also creates emotional distance and that might be the better approach.

[zachira]

How did your children get some of your mother's things? It sounds like part of your strategy is to not directly ask for anything for yourself as you know your mother will likely say no and do what she can to hurt your feelings. I am guessing that if your children get some of your mother's things, especially some of the things which you would like to have, that will help you to feel that you are getting what you want in that important family heirlooms are being kept in the family. I like your idea of getting things that could be valuable appraised and then offering to buy them. Your mother may decide not to give certain things to GC if she knows their value. Are you planning to get appraised any of the things already promised to GC? Is your mother likely to give anything to GC that GC asks for?

[Cat Familiar]

I’m assuming that you only have one sibling: GC? Why not get everything appraised and then calculate total monetary value? Then divide that sum in 2. Each party gets to choose items and once half of the monetary value is met, that’s it.

It’s easy for me to offer this strategy as I’m more of a Thinker than a Feeler. It seems you’re more on the Feeling end of the spectrum.

My cousin and I had to settle my bachelor uncle’s estate in Wyoming and it basically ended the threadbare connection we had. I left to return home a few days before he did, after we did an estate sale. However I later learned of some underhanded things he did, and from that point, I’ve had no interest in any contact with him whatsoever.

[GaGrl]

My great-aunt closed her house to move in with one of her five sons for health reasons. She had all the sons, DILs, and grandchildren come to her house several weeks before the move. Everyone made a choice, in turn, of an item they wanted. I'm sure not everyone got their primary choice, but my aunt had a country house filled with enough marvelous antiques for everyone to have something special. She called me and asked if I wanted anything, and I still have a limited edition print that I had always admired.

Perhaps after an appraisal, you and GC could take turns choosing items. Neither of you might get all you wanted, but it's the fairest way I've seen it done.

Of course, all depends on how your mother processes it all.

[Notwendy]

To address the questions- my BPD mother has gone either way with my kids- sometimes giving them something and sometimes not. She tends to be more generous with them and wants them to like her. There's still an element of control with her, deciding when she wants to do that rather than when they ask. She's given them a few things- not a lot, but I acknowledge that and also want to be fair to GC. The twist on all this is that, I was thinking sentiment, GC is thinking sell and I just became aware of looking at these things financially in addition.

My main objective is to avoid conflict and hurt feelings if possible. I just realized there's more of a financial objective for GC than I thought.

The reason I will be picking up some items and not GC is that while neither of us live very close to BPD mother, I live closer so it's easier and quicker for me to pick them up. The reason for doing this quickly is to empty the house for sale as soon as possible. If I have something that is going to go to GC, that can be arranged later.

My aim is to have this done openly- have a record of anything I have and if there are any items not already decided on, I will have them appraised. For items already decided on, there's no dispute and some, BPD mother may want to sell. The first thing though is to get them out of the house.

I think the difference that I picked up on was that I was thinking more about how to be fair to GC than GC is thinking about fairness to me. On my part, I don't care as much about it being 50 -50 on a financial level. It may be that I only want a few items and GC can have more,  but I'd like to have the chance to decide too. What I was seeing was more of a grab as much as possible on the part of GC. I think having items appraised will make this an easier way to decide.

[zachira]

I agree with you that having items appraised will make it easier to figure out who gets what. I think GC will be shocked at how much less some items are worth than GC thought.

[Mommydoc]

Good luck with this NotWendy.   I feel for you, and am happy that you are making progress getting your mom out of her home. Given what happened with your fathers belongings, this is an important time for you.   I encourage you to pay attention to your feelings and stand up for yourself. 

I think the difference that I picked up on was that I was thinking more about how to be fair to GC than GC is thinking about fairness to me. On my part, I don't care as much about it being 50 -50 on a financial level. It may be that I only want a few items and GC can have more,  but I'd like to have the chance to decide too. What I was seeing was more of a grab as much as possible on the part of GC. I think having items appraised will make this an easier way to decide.

It seems to me that even in the most functional families, it is never totally equitable and someone always becomes the “grabber”. My sister grabbed everything of my PGM’s when she died. There was  jewelry that we were supposed to split, but she took it all and decided that I would get my grandmothers watch, which made no sense, because I either don’t wear a watch and when I do, I wear an Apple Watch.   She did agree to “split” the charms on my PGMs charm bracelet with my daughter, herself and me, but never did.  She even brought it to my daughters graduation, told her to pick the charms she wanted.  She did, and I told her which ones I wanted also, and of course, neither of us got ever anything.   My mom grabbed a ring for herself and quietly gave it to me.  That is very special to me, and I am satisfied with that.  But every time she shows up wearing my GMs jewelry, it stings. 

Recently, when my mom appeared to be about to pass, I told my sister to go through her things and let me know what she wanted and /or to take it.  It was surreal, the things she took were odd and as you described it was more about “ taking” stuff then it was about sentimental value. For me, it made me realize how different we were.   I only need one or two things, and the value isn’t monetary, it’s sentimental. 

I hope the GC will agree to the appraisal process and that it goes smoothly for you.  Figure out what is most important to you, and what outcome you want, and make sure you advocate for yourself, as the GC likely is not going to consider fairness or equity in this process.  The more the two of you can work through this without having to invoke your mother as a decision maker, the less stressful it will all be.  Good luck!

[Turkish]

I don't get the grabbing.

When my boss's mom died, his 2 aunts stormed through the house and took a bunch of stuff (targeting jewelry) before he and his sister could disposition it. Then they offered no help with the cleanup (I did for a day and it was a lot!). Maybe because they weren't in the will for the estate, likely a $2m home at the time (north of San Francisco)? They remain emotionally cut off to this day.

[Notwendy]

I think there's a big emotional component to the "grabbing" - driven by several emotional and actual needs. When my H's parents moved out of his house, one of his siblings grabbed a lot of things, and this sibling is financially secure- there was no need for them. I think it's about wanting love and connection and feeling the need to have more.

With GC, I think it's financial need and now, with BPD mother having spent all her money, there's no hope for any inheritance of cash. I don't think that is the primary expectation on the part of GC- to inherit money. However, several years ago, BPD mother had indicated there was an account that GC was the beneficiary of, and that account is now gone. Any money BPD mother indicated was for GC has been spent and so now, CG is wanting something valuable to sell if needed. GC also wants some items for sentimental reasons.

For me, the emotions were surprising. There were a few sentimental items I wanted but didn't have the wish to have her possessions so it surprised me that I felt sad when GC wanted to sell some. I think it was connected to the emotions of when my father passed away and I wanted some kind of validation that I didn't feel at the time. The idea that my father's possessions would go to strangers rather than to me were unfathomable. Would BPD mother do the same thing with her possessions?

There was a happy outcome to this situation as I did visit and my BPD mother's family assisted me. They actually have caught on to her issues over time. BPD mother's behaviors are most apparent with her immediate family- and she's on her best behavior in front of her FOO, so by coming with me, she was more cooperative. The house needs to be cleared so it can be sold, so they knew this helps all involved. I did get some sentimental items and am happy with that. The items GC wants have no sentimental value to me and so I don't care if GC sells them.

BPD mother had her moments. In addition to helping clear the house, I met with realtors, brought her items she needed for her new place. It wasn't a "come and take things" visit. I didn't want to do that- I spent time with her too, visited the assisted living, met with some staff and her nurse coordinator.  

It didn't matter to her what I did as it's not enough for her. Even though the entire focus of this visit revolved around her, she continues to find something wrong with what we did. She expressed her disappointment that she isn't living near me. I apologized to her for disappointing her. She made comments on the phone to me that I cried over, then realized her FOO saw that and did damage control by being super sugary sweet to me after that. But I didn't cry because I took it personally. Her "lovey" comments are fake. She can't feel them, but she feels the emotions she projects. Those are her reality and her perceptions are so twisted. She didn't get angry at the things we did- she got angry at her perception of something we didn't do- and it was so trite it was astounding. Then she based her feelings on an entire situation about it that was completely fabricated in her mind and got angry at me over it. Of all the things we did for her- she makes up something we didn't do and feel hurt and upset over that. When she called me up angry over the situation she made up, it just seemed so delusional and sad, that I cried- for her.

The real treasure in all this is the possibility of reconnecting with family who I thought were estranged from me. I am still somewhat guarded- with anyone in my mother's circle but I saw that they were sincere about rebuilding the relationship and will give it a chance. Although some of them did act as "flying monkeys" they really had no idea what was going on at the time but over time they see more of the situation. They also care about my mother and wanted to see her in a safer place than in her own home. So it seems to be a good situation for all.

[zachira]

I have enormous respect for how you have handled this difficult ongoing situation with your mother and the rest of the family. You are a role model for us all. I am especially making note of how you have been very careful in communicating to your mother's family what they can handle and seemed to have earned their respect. I am sad your mother blamed you as you knew she would about the dire situation that she created for herself. So good to know you got some items you wanted. The worst is behind you, and it looks like for the first time you are pretty much in control for how things go with your mother and the family from now on because of the heathy boundaries you are modeling for us all. Are there parts of you that are truly glad that you are not the GC?

[Mommydoc]

Thanks for the update NotWendy.  As emotional and difficult as this journey has been, it does seem like you have made so much progress, both in getting your mother to a safe place, with your mothers family and mostly with yourself. Like Zachira, I have tremendous admiration for how you have navigated this.  I hope you can get some respite and self care.  You have been through a lot. 

[Cat Familiar]

   Good work! It seems like a very healing experience for you. You confronted the depths of her delusional thinking and rather than taking it personally, realized what underlies it. And you were able to secure some items that are meaningful to you, while extracting yourself from the issues of your sibling. Seems like the situation is now wrapped up with a tidy bow. Your mother will be managed by professionals, while her FOO now has a different perspective on whatever narrative she has been pushing for years. And you have an opportunity to get to know family members with whom you’ve been distant out of a desire for self protection.

[Notwendy]

Thanks all, and yes, the sum of it all is very positive and I am happy about how it all went. In ways, I have been happy that I am not the GC. I think there are detrimental effects on children for both being the golden child and the scapegoat child, but the enmeshment on the golden child seems to have an impact on their having independence. It wasn't all easy for GC though as BPD mother has been hurtful to every member of her immediate family.

One interesting aspect of having family members as emotional protection is that I think I was able to see her accusations in a more objective manner as it was less emotional. For as long as I can recall, I have not intentionally done anything to upset her, even as a kid, I didn't intentionally misbehave or break rules. I have been compliant - did what she told me to, did my homework, did well in school. Yet somehow she gets angry. In my visits as an adult, I have tried to do nice things for her- run errands, fix meals, arranged a get together with her family, yet somehow at the end of the visit, she tells me some reason why I have upset her.

Actions are visible and there's a certain number of them in a certain time period. There are only so many times one has gone to the store, or fixed a meal, or driven someone somewhere. You can see them, count them, they are facts. The "crimes of omission" the things I didn't do can be anything and as many as according to how she feels. So even if I do 10 nice things for her, she can feel as many "things I didn't do" or a variation "things I didn't do in the manner she wanted me to" as she feels and these are the things she gets upset about.

She called me as I was getting ready to drive home. I expected the message to be what anyone would say - like "have a safe drive" "it was nice to see you" "thanks for coming". Instead she told me how upset she was because I didn't do something that she decided was important. It was a trivial thing, not a priority,  and she made it into something bigger than it was. Other times it's something I did but not in the way she wanted, such as asking me to go do some things then getting upset because I didn't do them in the order she wanted me to. The "agenda" is not known, sometimes she doesn't even know it. If she tells me something she wants and I ask details about it, she gets angry- because she hasn't decided on them - yet- but after you do it, it's wrong somehow and then she tells you how hurtful it was.

That's the difficult part - she tells me how much she feels hurt, despite every effort on my part to do the opposite. And it's all in her own mind and that's sad. She had a husband who did all he could to change this for her, and kids who try to- and yet, she can not perceive past her emotional projections and we can't change that for her, but we would if we could. That's sad for her.

[Mommydoc]

That resonates with me so much.  You have such clarity NotWendy.  I notice how you have successfully separated yourself emotionally from it.  You are sad “for her” which is empathetic, without allowing her anger and accusatory comments hurt you.  Being able to see her accusations more objectively as projections and being less emotional is so hard, but you are clearly there.  I suspect I am not alone in aspiring to getting to the same place.