Asking for advice about how to approach BPD mother's house and belongings

[Notwendy]

Now that BPD mother has moved and with the financial urgency to sell the house, her FOO assumes she will let me have items that are in it.

I would assume otherwise.

With BPD mother's need for control, she takes control where she can. Even the smallest task becomes drama. Once, her car was in the shop for repairs. We know that picking up a car requires an extra driver and we were there and offered to help her get it. All we asked her to do was to call the shop to find out when it was ready so we knew when to do that. Well she refused to do that, making a big issue out of it. So this whole thing was to help her but when we asked her about it, she refused.

If you dare to ask BPD mother anything, the more likely response is for her to oppose it. Once she knows you want to do something, it becomes a control point.

Her family believes she will behave differently. I don't.

I plan to visit her, to see the assisted living, to offer my support as a team player with her FOO who has done so much of this process. They also want me to take some things from the house when I am there. I have tried this when she initially agrees but then she changes her mind.

I have not brought up the topic with her.

Her other maneuver is to ask me to come help get things out of the house and then cause so much drama that I give up and then she says I refuse to help her. I know I can't control her seeing me as "bad guy" but also, I can avoid reacting to her and not refuse, and stay neutral.

I would prefer to be in the house without her being there too ( she can leave the assisted living for outings with friends and family) , but I don't think she'd allow it.

I am not invested in the outcome. My expectations of any attempts are low. I had stopped making attempts to "help her clear out the house". On the other hand, if she did want it cleared, I would be willing to take some things of sentimental value. Due to her need for money, she may also want to sell her items. It's up to her.

Wondering how to approach her sounds like a manipulation- it's not about manipulating her to get things. It also may be that being the "bad guy" is not avoidable either. I just know from experience that showing any interest in getting in her house and taking anything is likely to become drama.

I expected that she'd  hold on to everything and not move until the bank repossessed the house it and she'd have to move her belongings to storage or dispose of them.

Her  FOO wants to avoid this as it's better for her if she sells it herself.  They have no financial interest in it or her belongings. I think they feel they are doing the right thing for her and us too, by being proactive.

What seems to be the most probable outcome is that something that requires BPD mother's permission is a non productive situation due to different goals.  If our goal is to clear the house- for her- that doesn't mean it's her goal. Her goal may be to meet her emotional needs in the moment and being controlling may be a way she does that.

Similar to the plan to pick up her car for her. It made sense and if the goal was to get the car, then why resist it. Well she did need to get her car, but she may have been able to ask someone else to help her, and her need for Karpman triangle drama was more than that.

I have my boundaries but there's no point in bringing them up with her. One is that, if this is not productive, I will tell her FOO that I tried and now other arrangements need to be made. I understand that they want me to have these items and want to give me the opportunity to collect them. This will either be productive or not, and if not, then I think it will be clear that this isn't a workable situation.

Thoughts and suggestions are appreciated.

[madeline7]

As you said in your last reply to me, our Moms behave so similarly. When my Dad passed away, my Mom made such an issue of being in control of his "things", that no one got anything sentimental. I had suggested we take 5 of his shirts and I could make them into pillows, 1 for each grandchild. She refused, saying she would decide what to do with his things when he was ready. Well, a few weeks later, she asked my H to take his all of his clothes to be donated. Later, when I found a few of my Dad's item in an old suitcase, I asked my kids if they wanted a few things and they said no, because they knew their grandmother would make an issue out of it if she were to find out. When she eventually passes, my kids don't want anything. And neither do I.
NW, do you think it might work for you to be in the house with other members of the extended family present? Along with your kids if possible, since I think you have mentioned your Moms desire was to have a relationship with you in order to have one with your kids? This way, you CYA, as much as that can be accomplished with a BPDm?

[GaGrl]

If your mother's FOO members can clarify her goals, you can go into this better prepared.

One option is to get an estate sale company to handle the sale of the house contents. Should this be the decision, your mother would need to remove from the house any items not to be sold. She would then need to keep them at the assisted living facility ( would need to fit in her room) or put in a storage facility or give them away.

Family members are not allowed at the estate sale if a company is handling it -- too disruptive.

Your mother may need to put items in a storage facility just to help work through her control issues in stages.

If I were you, I would not want to be in the house with your mother making decisions on items that were controversial in the past. I'm not sure she'll even allow the FOO to be in the house with you. You want to avoid being accused later of stealing items.

[kells76]

Am I remembering correctly that many of the items you would like to have are documents and photographs?

For you, based on your values and desires, is having the originals a higher priority, or would having a scan/image also meet what you are wanting?

Also, if your mom's FOO "claimed" many items, would they be willing to share them with you at a later date? For example, if they "chose" many photographs and documents, do you think that they would be amenable to you accessing/viewing/potentially having those things, down the road?

[Notwendy]

This is great advice !

madelyn7- our mothers are so similar. Mine has already disposed of most of my father's belongings- I don't think she cares what happens to them however, she does seem to like having control over them.

GaGrl- good point about not being alone with her and taking anything. I might be able to bring someone from her FOO over. I won't involve my kids- she does the same drama with them and they don't want to get involved with this. I may be able to have one of her FOO with me.

I have brought up the idea of an estate sale. I think it is the preferred option and she needs the money. I think her hesitation on this is to "see what I want" and then engage in drama with it. I also think she will try to hold off on doing anything with her house or belongings unless she has no choice.

One idea I had was to present this as helping her. She has a need to feel superior and order people around, along with a measure of humiliation and verbal/emotional abuse. I can present this to her as something to be of service to her but I would need a list of what she wants me to take so I know what to bring with me such as packing boxes and such. I would expect her to not comply with this and so know, it's more likely she will want me to bring her to the house, get her narcissistic supply of having control. It would be unexpected for her to give me a list, but if she did, then I would have this if she accused me of stealing.

I feel as if her FOO really wants to try. They haven't tried to do this yet, and so don't know what kind of behavior to expect from her. Who knows, they were successful with her moving but also she knew she had no options left. They haven't tried this with her yet. I realize that if this doesn't work, they may need to know that they have at least tried to let us have items- made the offer to us first before taking action such as selling them. They don't want to be the ones to have "taken" them from us. I can understand that.

Kells, since these items include letters, I would like to have the originals. If her FOO gets anything like that, they would give them to me. For now though, they want me to have the chance at them first.

My best guess is that she's likely to delay any progress on the house and if she does, I will let them know of her decision.

[zachira]

I am thinking that what could be key here is how your mother likes to look good to her FOO and others while at the same time opposes anything you want. You might ask her FOO to be completely in charge of disposing of the contents of the house and give them a list of what you would like while making it clear you will accept whatever makes things easier for your FOO to clear out your mother's house. Make it completely clear, that you cannot be directly involved in what happens to your mother's things, as your mother will be opposed and make things difficult for everybody.
I know how much it hurts to not get things you are sentimental about, as this happened to me after my mother died. You have often written about how hurt you were that your mother would not let you have anything after your father died.
Keeping you in my thoughts and I hope that you do get some of the things you are sentimental about.

[kells76]

Could you survive whatever she says or does after you just take the items (such as the letters) that are important to you?

She will likely call you a thief to assisted living staff and to her FOO, correct? Would that be something you could live with?

Her FOO will know what is true about you, perhaps especially if you "prep" them beforehand: "FOO, I understand you're supporting me in taking home items from Mom's that are important to me. Thank you. I just want you to know that I plan to pick up Items A, B, C, D, and E. If anything changes, I'll email you. I need you to know that Mom will likely have a difficult time with this and may accuse me of many things. If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me directly."

This is probably just a slightly different approach, but fundamentally similar to Zachira's suggestion: work independently with your mom's FOO ahead of time to coordinate which items (and who picks them up), then "decide and inform" and move ahead, versus "ask and wait" and be blamed by your mom anyway.

[Notwendy]

Zachira is correct in that at one point, I was very sad to not be able to have the sentimental items that belonged to my father. It was also difficult at the time as I also was grieving.

The main reason something is sentimental is that there's an attachment to the relationship with the person who owned it. But now, there's also the memory of my mother using these items to be hurtful. So, while I would still want them, especially if there are items that my children would also want, I would be happy to have them, but am also have mixed feelings about them.

My BPD mother has heirlooms that I would want because they are heirlooms.

I would be fine with not getting anything at all. I have assumed that. I'd be glad if she gave me keepsakes too.


Thankfully, I do have the support of her FOO if she calls me a thief. She's already called me similar things. I would let them know what I have taken out of the house if I do take anything.

[GaGrl]

The only reason I have a portrait of my biological grandmother, who died in 1930 at age 26 in her second pregnancy, is that my grandfather sneaked it to my mother and me when he saw how much I resembled her. Otherwise, the large portrait, in a valuable and unique frame with curved glass, would have remained buried with other items related to my bio grandmother. Grandad had to wait until my uBPD/NPD step-grandmother went to work, pull out the portrait, and have Mom put it in the trunk of our car -- all to ensure that my step-grandmother didn't go into one of her irrational rages.

Sometimes the BPDs are just mean.

[Riv3rW0lf]

The only reason I have a portrait of my biological grandmother, who died in 1930 at age 26 in her second pregnancy, is that my grandfather sneaked it to my mother and me when he saw how much I resembled her. Otherwise, the large portrait, in a valuable and unique frame with curved glass, would have remained buried with other items related to my bio grandmother. Grandad had to wait until my uBPD/NPD step-grandmother went to work, pull out the portrait, and have Mom put it in the trunk of our car -- all to ensure that my step-grandmother didn't go into one of her irrational rages.

Sometimes the BPDs are just mean.

Yep... My mother destroyed or "lost" the only video that existed from my childhood. She just "lost" it, along with most photos. She also stole my father's photos and things that belonged to his childhood when they separated, and proceeded to lose them. I was able to sneak some of those things out of her house.

I say you should go for what you want to save. The drama is temporary, not those souvenirs, and your children might value having those.

It still stings to think she lost my childhood memories, in a sense. I wished I'd have sneak it out of her house sooner, but I didn't know how mean she could be. I say : take what you want to take, Notwendy, while she isn't there.

[Couscous]

Once, her car was in the shop for repairs. We know that picking up a car requires an extra driver and we were there and offered to help her get it. All we asked her to do was to call the shop to find out when it was ready so we knew when to do that. Well she refused to do that, making a big issue out of it. So this whole thing was to help her but when we asked her about it, she refused.

Oh, now you mother’s behavior makes a lot more sense to me. It  looks like she interprets your desire to be helpful or kind as an attempt to ingratiate yourself to her. That would also explain why she reacted so negatively to that lunch you organized for her. My guess it’s because she does this herself, so she just assumes that everyone uses ingratiation to win brownie points with people.

She also might not be willing to accept help so that she can avoid being in someone’s debt and doesn’t have to ever “owe” anything to anyone.

The solution to this is simply to not render favors or offer to help her, or to do anything nice for her.

[Notwendy]

It  looks like she interprets your desire to be helpful or kind as an attempt to ingratiate yourself to her.
My guess it’s because she does this herself, so she just assumes that everyone uses ingratiation to win brownie points with people.

Wow that's good insight. I would not have thought of this- because, I don't do this kind of thing. It would not even cross my mind to do something to ingratiate my mother. I don't think that way, and don't even want people to be ingratiated to me.

She might see my efforts as having ulterior motives or being manipulative- because that's how she might do it.

So you are correct.  I know not to make plans like arranging the lunch. I can ask if she wants to go to lunch with me but not be invested in how she responds and just go get my own lunch if she refuses. She does like it when people are subservient to her, but she needs to be in charge of that. If I put discussing the house in terms of helping her, she could then assume I have another agenda, or have some ulterior motive. Maybe that is why she's been suspicious of my attempts to help her.

I can also see if she brings it up. If I don't offer, she may start giving me orders to do this or that in the house. Or do nothing. It would be an interesting to see what happens if I just don't offer.

It's possible that her insistence on knowing what I want and then hanging on to it is her wanting to ingratiate me. When I reply that I would prefer she decide what she wants to give me, that doesn't sit right with her. It would be interesting if I did something different.

None of this is with any intention of manipulating her or making her do something, it would just be interesting to see what happens.

[GaGrl]

What if the FOO members asked her which items in the house need to go into storage before the estate sale takes place? That protects those items, your mother knows they are "safe" (from whatever or whomever, LOL), and an estate sale can proceed cleanly.

And if something important to you is not on the list for storage, you can ask FOO to include it.

I would not imagine it would be very expensive for the number of things she might want to keep. I have a 10' by 5' storage unit for seasonal decorations that costs US$75 per month.

[Turkish]

Better to ask for forgiveness than permission.

Estate sale is a good idea, especially using a company. We did one ourselves and though we made a few thousand dollars literally hand over fist on small items in a few hours, some people stole. It was like garage salers on steroids. Vultures.

With BPD mother's need for control, she takes control where she can. Even the smallest task becomes drama. Once, her car was in the shop for repairs. We know that picking up a car requires an extra driver and we were there and offered to help her get it. All we asked her to do was to call the shop to find out when it was ready so we knew when to do that. Well she refused to do that, making a big issue out of it. So this whole thing was to help her but when we asked her about it, she refused.

Sounds like my mom when she was living with us and I tried to encourage her to write a check and mail it on her delinquent property tax payment plan. Paying online? Ha! I had to take a day off work (lost a day's wages) and drive her over 100 miles so she could pay in person, and then listen while she told the ladies at the counter that I had never helped her with $.

[Notwendy]

I have been the one to bring up a sale of her items. She needs the money and they are hers. I think her FOO is trying to be considerate to us by giving me this opportunity before taking more steps to clear the house. I also brought up the idea of a storage unit but they somehow don't like that idea. I think the financial need includes selling items rather than to store them. 

I have noticed in my conversations that her FOO seem to get frustrated by different suggestions. I can see how I come across to them as "wishy washy" when dealing with BPD mother. They are more direct and assertive-  but they also have not been walking on eggshells around her. We "feel her out" and if we see a reaction, begin to back off. I see their point in just coming up with a plan, rather than offering her choices.

It's made me think about how I interact with her and how much we are accustomed to walking on eggshells around her. She's also very disordered with her thinking. You can see where her emotions rise when talking to her and then her thinking gets scrambled. She starts out seemingly fine, but it's social talk. Then once you try to discuss a plan in logical sequence, she scrambles and gets agitated and can't follow you.  I can see her family get frustrated with me when I make different suggestions. I think this is still the co-dependency and people pleasing part of me- making suggestions - is this OK, is that OK, but there's still fear when dealing with my mother and anyone connected to her.

I think the best way to proceed is to try- and whatever happens- then tell them I have what I want. Then the rest is up to BPD mother to decide on. Their frustration with my hesitation is probably due to the fact that they need to move on with this.

[zachira]

Would you consider telling your mother's family that you will let them work out with your mother how to empty her house while also giving them a list of items you would like to have with the understanding that you will be fine if you don't get any of these items or just some of them? Walking on eggshells regarding the outcome of the emptying of your mother's house is understandable with how your mother likes to control everybody around her and blame you for how badly she feels inside.
As someone who dealt with not getting any of my mother's things, and much advice from other members, to give up on not getting any of my mother's things, I feel this is a process, letting go of possibly not getting anything while wanting things because of their sentimental value. Sometimes it is better to let things go, and other times, it is better to fight for what we want, or do something in between. What you are dealing with, feels somewhat like how we continually renegotiate the kind of contact we will have with disordered family members, when we can't just go full no contact. You are under a great deal of pressure to make final decisions about how you will participate in the emptying of your mother's house and you have so little time to decide.

[Couscous]

We "feel her out" and if we see a reaction, begin to back off.

And what’s the worse that could happen if she has a reaction?

[Notwendy]

And what’s the worse that could happen if she has a reaction?

Logically nothing other than an unpleasant experience. Emotionally, sets off a lot of fear from her rage episodes when we were children. We grew up terrified of her. It's something to be aware of but a habit to tiptoe around her.

I am not invested in the outcome of asking her what she wants me to take out of the house. It's just the idea has been presented to me by her FOO. I understand their reasoning and that they don't understand all of the history with BPD mother. I think the plan to try - then tell them it's fine to proceed with the sale is probably the best option. They may be willing to collect items for me but first, I think they want to see what my mother agrees to first.

[zachira]

Sounds like you are in a good place: not invested in the outcome, though willing to have some of your mother's things if her family helps you to get them with your mother's approval which could be very temporary.

[Couscous]

My guess is that it’s probably going to take some assertiveness on your part, both with your mother and with your extended family, to get the items you would like. Maybe having your H accompany you would help too.

Just because someone is getting reactive doesn’t mean you’ve stepped onto the drama triangle as long as you are able to remain calm. If tensions begin to rise you can always take a bathroom break and do a grounding exercise. Worst case, you get nothing, but at least you gave it your best shot.

[Cat Familiar]

My mother never let go of ANYTHING…as it could be useful at some point. I’m talking about clocks that don’t work, years of rinsed out yogurt containers, high heeled shoes she hadn’t worn in decades, etc.

When her dementia began to increase to a point where I felt she was no longer safe to live in her house, I began flying down to see her every few weeks and pack up and dispose of her belongings. I came up with an acronym: BUS…Beautiful, Useful, Sentimental and anything that didn’t fit with these terms was donated or discarded. Sentimental was *dangerous*—in her mind, it applied to the yogurt containers, as she had eaten yogurt with my deceased father.

I put up with rages, crying fits, and accusations of all sorts of harmful intentions: “You are throwing me out of my own home!” “You’re going to take all my things and leave me homeless.”

Nevertheless I persevered. Lots of times on a return trip, I’d notice that she had fished out assorted things from the garbage can.

Even when the movers were coming the following day, I had to sleep on the floor in front of the bathroom door where I had locked in her cat, so she wouldn’t let him out. She threatened to not get on the plane with me, but she (and the cat) made the trip and I moved her into the house I bought for her, just a few miles away from me.

Then she threatened to run away and get on any random bus and “go home.” I called Adult Protective Services to come and have a chat with her. I wanted her threats documented and figured if she saw an *authority figure* that I might have some negotiating ability to “prevent her from getting into trouble” should she think about making good on her threats.

My mother was not fully non compos mentis at this point, but at the same time, she wasn’t totally capable of knowing what was missing, so I was able to *disappear* stuff and she had no idea I had disposed of certain things if she hadn’t seen me do it.

Undoubtedly your mother’s quarters in assisted living will be much smaller than her current house, so if you take things that are meaningful to you, it could very well be that she will never miss them.

Sh!tfits and meltdowns are regular BPD occurrences and she already has an *attitude* toward you. Why not just take things that you want, that are important to you, and let the chips fall where they may? You can provide her FOO a list and if there’s anything she absolutely HAS to have returned, then give it back. More likely she will be so overwhelmed in her new living circumstances that she won’t even notice.

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Notwendy,

I had a thought about this, 2 possible approaches.

You've shared how your mom offers things to you and then goes back on that so you've stepped back from any hopes or attempts to pursue getting those things which makes sense. I would be in that boat right with you.

You also have her FOO trying to help in their own way by offering things to you, and yet that's not a comfortable place for you either.

Could you put together a list of all the items your mom has mentioned she wants to keep, including those items that you'd like that she maintains control over, and give it to your mom and say something to the effect of, "Mom, here's a list of the items you've told me over the years that you want to keep. I've also given the list to X (FOO person). You can cross off or add to the list and confer with them if you wish to add or remove things as they prepare to get the house ready to sell. It's a starting place, not a final list. Their hope is that you'll be able to place in a storage unit those items that are important to you, those that you've said have significance for you which you'd most likey not want to sell in the auction." With the items you would like eventually being pulled out to save and placed in storage, they'll be safe for down the road (and that's a bridge you can cross later). Or if mom says or crosses off the list and instructs that she doesn't want those items, then you could get them from the FOO (without telling her) as they take care of the list. If you think she'd notice before any auction and wonder where the items went, as a contingency plan, you/they can tell her they're in a storage unit where you put them. That way they'd not be in your possession yet  until the dust settles.

The second option would be to take that same list and directly give it to the FOO and have them do the communication with your mom. If the items you want aren't on the list after they speak to her, then you can be firm in your decision to remove them to your house and not tell your mom.

Just another option to consider. It leaves her in control of her choices regarding what she wants, yet hopefully protects what you'd like. It also gives you options so that things aren't lost to you that you want, and it allows you to appear less wishy washy to the FOO. Everyone can take or leave your idea, but it's a good starting place to help everyone.

Take care,
Wools

[Notwendy]

Wow Cat, what an ordeal!

My mother doesn't hold on to items in general- it's the items she thinks, or knows we want that become objects of control or anger. She'd confiscate, or threaten to ruin, or actually ruin, a favorite item.

BPD mother has the keys to the house. She holds on to them. Her FOO doesn't have a key. To actually get into the house, I have to ask her for the key. So it begins with asking her for something I want- the key. In addition, so far, she insists on being with me, looking through items with her.

I am not invested in getting any of the items. It might be just another opportunity for her to engage in this game of asking what I want. Her FOO thinks she will be more agreeable now. I guess the only way to find out is to try and see what happens but I know to not have expectations.

[Notwendy]

Wools, that is a good idea. I don't know all of what is in the house as I don't look through it but if BPD wants me to "go through the house" with her, I can then make a list and hand it to her FOO. Then if they are able to collect anything, I can get it from them, or ask them to send it to me and I would cover the costs of shipping.

[Couscous]

I thought this article was eye-opening: https://nataliefrank.medium.com/narcissistic-mothers-steal-throw-out-destroy-or-give-away-your-belongings-to-maintain-control-and-f7c8ed3c4d1

[Notwendy]

I thought this article was eye-opening: https://nataliefrank.medium.com/narcissistic-mothers-steal-throw-out-destroy-or-give-away-your-belongings-to-maintain-control-and-f7c8ed3c4d1

This is my mother, and explains why attempting to collect any sentimental items feels like giving her an opportunity to have this kind of interaction and why I have no expectations of her ( and I am not attached to the outcome).

Often children will share a hobby with the non-narcissistic parent such as watching old movies, playing a particular sport or coin collecting. After that parent passes away, the child comes to value items related to that hobby as something that represents the closeness that was experienced while engaging in it with the parent. It is often the case that the narcissistic parent will take those possessions away, either claiming they belong to them despite never having any interest in the hobby.

The parent will then get rid of the objects to deprive the child of something that represents that time spent with their other parent. They don’t see how terrible an act this is, only that they are ending anything having to do with an activity they weren’t involved in.

Yes, this is what happened with the belongings I wanted that belonged to my father.

[zachira]

If seems that the best option could be to ask one of your mother's relatives to go through the house with her, make a list of what she wants to keep and what she wants to get rid of. It is likely based on past experiences and this article, that your mother will be extremely abusive to you in any interactions that have to do with her things, possibly more abusive than you have ever experienced.

[Cat Familiar]

I like zachira’s suggestion of having the relatives go through the house with her and make a list of possessions she will take to assisted living. She’s going to have to surrender the key at some point or they will need to have it duplicated in order to arrange for the sale of goods that won’t be moved to her new living quarters. That drama can be then managed by someone other than you. And in the meantime, you might be making a list of things you want, prior to the sale of house and goods within.

[GaGrl]

I agree with Zachira and Cat...this really needs to be managed by FOO, and NotWendy needs not to be present. This could be highly difficult, and the FOO might see a side of her that they haven't fully experienced before.

[Notwendy]

Great suggestions. In addition, I will be staying with them. BPD mother knows they will ask me how it is going. So it might be that she behaves differently now that she knows they are involved.