More Reflections (going on sixteen years now)

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I wrote this email as a response to a friend a little while ago, he too is separated from a bpd/wife, he is her forth husband, it is his first marriage

You know how we all seem to unavoidably, & inevitably meet others, whom are on the same old worn-out path, and we share, and help each other ...

After I sent it, I read it, ... and I wonder, just what have I learned after all these years, ... three-point five years dating, thirteen years married (four-point three of these years separated), ...,  sixteen years total with her.

Do I have it all figured out now, or am I just in an endless tailspin of 'analysis paralysis'?

Thoughts and corrections welcome, ... v/r Red


Meeting, dating, ... and then marrying a 'narcopath' (borderline narcissist)

Man, ... after about eight (8) years of bitter reflection, soiled in daily life with one (survival mode), ... what can I say about it today (Friday, 24 February 2023) ...

She was a real 'looker', and very sweet, kind even, ... seemed perfect.

But now I know, and understand that she was wearing a mask, she was presenting herself as someone I wanted to see, she was in fact mirroring me, thats what the information (books & videos) says ... she was a fake, a "facade" ... well at least until she got me on her "hook" (sexed up, and love bombed).

After a while I became spellbound by her, her smell, her touch, her "presence", ... this is what happens when you are "with" a woman, it is the 'oxytocin' upload, the firing of the 'endorphins' in the brain, ... this is the exact same as any addicted addict, ... she became a drug to me, ... and I was (and maybe still am to a strong degree) addicted to her, ...

She used on me, what is called 'operant conditioning', ... or 'behavior modification', ... she used her female "powers" to get me under her control, ... 'negative = positive reinforcement' (be a good boy, do what I say, and you can **** me) ... yeah : (

Simple as that, ... now add; ... her go to emotion, which was (is) anger, ... anytime I 'stepped out of line', ... I got punished, she was always very "punitive", ... very judgmental, ... always a very very negative person, ... as I said, this was all hidden from me during the first six months of the relationship, ... and I have now known her since 2007 (almost sixteen years now), ...

But I was hooked, ... perhaps due to 'repetition compulsion', ... due to losing the previous marriage of 21.3+ years, ... I just could not accept the fact that I was also broken inside, and I had made yet another unwise, and miss-informed choice in a women, ... "If I can make this one work out, I will have beaten the previous failure" ...

The cognitive dissonance is still extremely strong with me, to this very day, ... I still think about her almost every hour of everyday, ... and this month now marks 4.3 years of separation.

I now believe that this is the result of the physical, and as well metaphysical "bodily essence" traded (DNA - oxytocin - upload), this is quite strong, powerful, ... if not permanent, ... yeah : (
*Soulmate
*Pair Bonded (bonding)
*Soul Tie
*Trauma Bond (bonded)

^the above^ is what causes the endless inability to get "over" her, ... to let her go, ... even though she is quite toxic, and also 'malignant' in her narcissism (borderline PD), ... so why do I hang on, why do I think about her all the time still?

Now get this, I often hear, "how do you feel when you may see her, or she calls, or texts, ... or an email from her 'pops up', ... do I feel good, do I feel bad, does my gut drop, like I am about to be hit by a truck, or dragged under by an alligator? ... "what does your spirit tell you, what does your gut say, how do you feel", ... well the answer to that is that if I hear from her, my heart jumps, but NOT in a good happy way, but a feeling of immediate dread engulfs me, I really would rather not ever hear from her, see her, or have to interact with her, ... what a 'catch-22', ... a complete mind ****.

Even after all the bull$hit, and other line items of k-r-a-p she has put me through, *manipulation-intimidation-domination-control* that she had/has heaped upon me, ... because she is a _____, ... even after all that, and 4.3 years of separation, I am STILL addicted to her, ... even though, ... she is no good for me, and if I were to stay with her, live with her, be with her; for a myriad of good or bad reasons,... she would probably kill me, firstly my (spirit) spiritually/soul, and then eventually physically, ... a man cannot live for years and years under this type of mental abuse, not to mention physical, ... the 'amygdala response', (fright - fight - freeze - fawn) always engaged, racing thoughts, dreading to see what's next, her never ending "episodes, explosions", and outright destructive behaviors, ... that $hit over time will kill a man graveyard dead,
*hypertension
*mental breakdown/depression
*stroke
*heart attack

So why, ... why does the 'cognitive dissonance' of "her" still haunt me, ... that is the question, ... there is no closure, ... the only way I can see that this would end, if she were to pass (perish from this earth), ... or me, ... or if she were to finally divorce me, and depart the pattern for another man, ... at either point, I would (might?) be able to finally 'let her go' ...

So I am just 'stuck', ... stuck here with my thoughts, my ruminations, my never-ending memories of her, ... all of the memories are there, on constant replay, ... both the bad, along with the few good ones, ...

So that (this) is why it is so 'hard' to get over a narcissist, as the article says,... or else recover from an ongoing separation.

It is a spiritual/chemical, blood thing, ... we both bonded with these women, ... physically, as well emotionally/spiritually.

These emotions have no expiration, perhaps they only may dull or fade some over time, ... but I have to say, that I am of a better mind than I was back in late 2018, ... as I look back over the eight years of marriage prior to that even, ... I do feel a (some) sense of relief that I do not have to 'deal' with her behaviors anymore, one on one (1V1), ... on a daily basis.

I honestly do not know how I got through that period of time, prior to awakening, and starting to look for the answers ... as to "why".

But when I do get a text from her ... for whatever reason, ... I do panic a little, ... at least for a little while, like I did on Thursday, ... until I can fall back on my "training" and resolve my feelings about her 'recent communication'.
*gray rock
*do not over explain (TMI)
*"it isn't an emergency" (do not respond)
*"do not feed it (her)"
*"the best way to win, is not to play"
*"she is always mad anyway"

Yes, the cognitive dissonance, is still there with me, ... I often think of her, "the way it used to be" (summer of 2007), when we were dating, ... the "happy times", ... the innocent times, ... and then my mind tells me, "HEY, she was faking it dumba$$!" ...

...round and round I go... back and forth, ... I miss her, ... but the person I am missing NEVER existed.

Never did : (

[Red5]

I wrote this email as a response to a friend a little while ago, he too is separated from a bpd/wife, he is her forth husband, it is his first marriage

You know how we all seem to unavoidably, & inevitably meet others, whom are on the same old worn-out path, and we share, and help each other ...

After I sent it, I read it, ... and I wonder, just what have I learned after all these years, ... three-point five years dating, thirteen years married (four-point three of these years separated), ...,  sixteen years total with her.

Do I have it all figured out now, or am I just in an endless tailspin of 'analysis paralysis'?

Thoughts and corrections welcome, ... v/r Red


Meeting, dating, ... and then marrying a 'narcopath' (borderline narcissist)

Man, ... after about eight (8) years of bitter reflection, soiled in daily life with one (survival mode), ... what can I say about it today (Friday, 24 February 2023) ...

She was a real 'looker', and very sweet, kind even, ... seemed perfect.

But now I know, and understand that she was wearing a mask, she was presenting herself as someone I wanted to see, she was in fact mirroring me, thats what the information (books & videos) says ... she was a fake, a "facade" ... well at least until she got me on her "hook" (sexed up, and love bombed).

After a while I became spellbound by her, her smell, her touch, her "presence", ... this is what happens when you are "with" a woman, it is the 'oxytocin' upload, the firing of the 'endorphins' in the brain, ... this is the exact same as any addicted addict, ... she became a drug to me, ... and I was (and maybe still am to a strong degree) addicted to her, ...

She used on me, what is called 'operant conditioning', ... or 'behavior modification', ... she used her female "powers" to get me under her control, ... 'negative = positive reinforcement' (be a good boy, do what I say, and you can **** me) ... yeah : (

Simple as that, ... now add; ... her go to emotion, which was (is) anger, ... anytime I 'stepped out of line', ... I got punished, she was always very "punitive", ... very judgmental, ... always a very very negative person, ... as I said, this was all hidden from me during the first six months of the relationship, ... and I have now known her since 2007 (almost sixteen years now), ...

But I was hooked, ... perhaps due to 'repetition compulsion', ... due to losing the previous marriage of 21.3+ years, ... I just could not accept the fact that I was also broken inside, and I had made yet another unwise, and miss-informed choice in a women, ... "If I can make this one work out, I will have beaten the previous failure" ...

The cognitive dissonance is still extremely strong with me, to this very day, ... I still think about her almost every hour of everyday, ... and this month now marks 4.3 years of separation.

I now believe that this is the result of the physical, and as well metaphysical "bodily essence" traded (DNA - oxytocin - upload), this is quite strong, powerful, ... if not permanent, ... yeah : (
*Soulmate
*Pair Bonded (bonding)
*Soul Tie
*Trauma Bond (bonded)

^the above^ is what causes the endless inability to get "over" her, ... to let her go, ... even though she is quite toxic, and also 'malignant' in her narcissism (borderline PD), ... so why do I hang on, why do I think about her all the time still?

Now get this, I often hear, "how do you feel when you may see her, or she calls, or texts, ... or an email from her 'pops up', ... do I feel good, do I feel bad, does my gut drop, like I am about to be hit by a truck, or dragged under by an alligator? ... "what does your spirit tell you, what does your gut say, how do you feel", ... well the answer to that is that if I hear from her, my heart jumps, but NOT in a good happy way, but a feeling of immediate dread engulfs me, I really would rather not ever hear from her, see her, or have to interact with her, ... what a 'catch-22', ... a complete mind ****.

Even after all the bull$hit, and other line items of k-r-a-p she has put me through, *manipulation-intimidation-domination-control* that she had/has heaped upon me, ... because she is a _____, ... even after all that, and 4.3 years of separation, I am STILL addicted to her, ... even though, ... she is no good for me, and if I were to stay with her, live with her, be with her; for a myriad of good or bad reasons,... she would probably kill me, firstly my (spirit) spiritually/soul, and then eventually physically, ... a man cannot live for years and years under this type of mental abuse, not to mention physical, ... the 'amygdala response', (fright - fight - freeze - fawn) always engaged, racing thoughts, dreading to see what's next, her never ending "episodes, explosions", and outright destructive behaviors, ... that $hit over time will kill a man graveyard dead,
*hypertension
*mental breakdown/depression
*stroke
*heart attack

So why, ... why does the 'cognitive dissonance' of "her" still haunt me, ... that is the question, ... there is no closure, ... the only way I can see that this would end, if she were to pass (perish from this earth), ... or me, ... or if she were to finally divorce me, and depart the pattern for another man, ... at either point, I would (might?) be able to finally 'let her go' ...

So I am just 'stuck', ... stuck here with my thoughts, my ruminations, my never-ending memories of her, ... all of the memories are there, on constant replay, ... both the bad, along with the few good ones, ...

So that (this) is why it is so 'hard' to get over a narcissist, as the article says,... or else recover from an ongoing separation.

It is a spiritual/chemical, blood thing, ... we both bonded with these women, ... physically, as well emotionally/spiritually.

These emotions have no expiration, perhaps they only may dull or fade some over time, ... but I have to say, that I am of a better mind than I was back in late 2018, ... as I look back over the eight years of marriage prior to that even, ... I do feel a (some) sense of relief that I do not have to 'deal' with her behaviors anymore, one on one (1V1), ... on a daily basis.

I honestly do not know how I got through that period of time, prior to awakening, and starting to look for the answers ... as to "why".

But when I do get a text from her ... for whatever reason, ... I do panic a little, ... at least for a little while, like I did on Thursday, ... until I can fall back on my "training" and resolve my feelings about her 'recent communication'.
*gray rock
*do not over explain (TMI)
*"it isn't an emergency" (do not respond)
*"do not feed it (her)"
*"the best way to win, is not to play"
*"she is always mad anyway"

Yes, the cognitive dissonance, is still there with me, ... I often think of her, "the way it used to be" (summer of 2007), when we were dating, ... the "happy times", ... the innocent times, ... and then my mind tells me, "HEY, she was faking it dumba$$!" ...

...round and round I go... back and forth, ... I miss her, ... but the person I am missing NEVER existed.

Never did : (

[Rex31807]

I needed to.read that.  We have the exact same relationship timeline. The behaviors were exactly the same. I felt a.sense.of dread when i would get a text or an email.

Now i have to figure put why i put up with it for so long.  It was her looks that attracted me. She can be quite mean. Even when we dated there were subtle warning signs that i should have picked up on.  I never knew mental illness until i met her. She was quite successful career wise. It was constant conflict. The rage blasts would start on a Friday and last until Sunday evening. It was no way to live. It would have killed me.

[Red5]

Rex,

I got curious, and read *all* of your posts, ... wow, I could have written all of them, the parallels are uncanny!

I have heard time and again, how these women seem to be all the same, behavior wise, it seems to cross all cultures, all races, ... have also heard this, "they seem to be using the exact same play book".

I was going to cut/paste the similar behaviors that you had posted about, but I gave up, as it was going to surpass my ability to keep track, as we both seem to have been married to almost the same (type model series) of woman.

... wow : (

Yes, every single point that you posted, mine (wife/bpd-npd) did ALL the same things to me, ... as well my son, that's another story (step mom), ... as far as empathy, they seem to have zero, when it really counts, ... although as you wrote, they do seem to have (some of them) a high degree of 'executive function' ... eg' highly employed... until they go after the boss/supervisor.

#narcssisitic wound

I have been to see three head shrinkers over the last several years, from 2018-2020 ... seeking 'validation' for what I thought was happening, ... and I got the "go code" every time, ... the last one told me this, ... "borderlines will eventually destroy everything", ... there is a lot more to this statement ... as in, *they will blow up and burndown (metaphorically) everything to be right* ...

I guess it is the 'wounded inner child' thing with them, ... all the stuff about; "they will leave you, before you leave them" is all true.

"Paranoia" is a big thing with them too, ... 'trust issues', ...

The posts you wrote about physical violence is spot on, ... a youtuber I listed too said, ... "once that 'Rubicon' is crossed, it is over", ... "when the person you are in a relationship HURTS you, it is over, stay away from them" ...

I also have been a youtube detective for years now, countless hours spent listening to many many channels, ... books, MP3 disks, ... "looking for answers", ... one youtuber says, ... something to the effect; ... "now you have this accidental & unwanted 'masters degree' in psychology, so now what are you going to do?"

Wow, ... no kidding right! ... yeeesh : (

One things for sure, they do not 'get better' with age, no, ... they get even worse.

Once me and my wife separated, she started going after her own adult kids, and their spouses, ... that's right!, ... that's called 'supply', ... & they got to have it, and it doesn't matter if it is bad supply, or good supply, ... yup, they will eventually destroy every relationship, husband, (or wife), kids, (in-law) daughter,  son -> (emasculated) in-law, ... sisters, brother (deceased) or mother, and father (father now deceased as well) ... FOO issues there.

I still maintain a relationship with her adult son and daughter, ... last summer, they all got together at the daughters home (new baby), ... and wife wbpd/npd, ... created such an episode, that her son's wife (DIL) called the cops on her, ... yup; you read that right, her own son's wife had to call the sheriff on her, ... you see, ... it was never us (you & me), ... once the are away from us, they will continue to attack those closest to them, ...

Oh, and it is a 13 hour drive from this geoloc to the geoloc that this took place at, ... why would you (her) drive 13 hours, to see her own adult children and her D&S in laws, ... and the new baby, ... only to 'blow it all up" ... how "endearing" ... but we already know the answer do we not ...

Once you start 'waking up', ... and start to learn the mechanisms of all this, you will soon see, (FOO) issues, ... it is always right there.

I could go on and on, ...

~Red

[Rex31807]

The hard part is just letting go. I second guess myself. I had a counselor tell me that if i didnt get out of the relationship it would kill me. The silence right now is deafening. I think i got used to the chaos. I got so used to.the conflict i dont know how to be ok with it being just normal and peaceful.

She got physical within 3 years. Shes been physical with everyone in the home. It was hell being worried if she would be angry after work.

Her mom destroyed all her relationships as well. Her moms friends cut her mom off. Being in a relationship with my wife sucked me dry. I cut off all contact with friends and family. If it wasnt centered around her i was being selfish.

Thanks for going back and reading my posts. We met in 2007 and split up in 2016.  Same exact timeline.

Stay in touch.

Rex

[Rex31807]

Its still raw and painful. I dont want a relationship right now or even date.  I want to take time to figure out why i would be attracted to that type and what i do to attract them. I need to.be comfortable being alone and in the silence. The peace is maddening. The chaos was the norm.

I hate the fact that i invested 16 years in a failed marriage. Now i have to see what God wants me to do and seek his guidance. Its not easy being involved with that type of woman and i can think of 2 other women i dated in the past that have bpd traits.

[SaltyDawg]

I read that e-mail, it sounds like my relationship too... just different timeframes slightly extended versions of your own.

I am on my 2nd dance...  22.2 years in, 19.8 years married, not yet divorced, but likely heading there, formulating an escape plan.  I need to be there for my two children so they don't become more f-'d up than they already are and to reverse some of the damage she has done.

My 1st dance was severely dysfunctional uBPD/NPDexgf I recognized it, and got the f- out, only to land in a more sinister one that was with a high-functioning moderate uBPDw - we are both in our first marriage that I was not able to recognize until it was way too late - didn't even know about BPD until this past June 2022 and I have a quarter century of experience with the borderline - how f-'d up is that?

My logical mind knows what I am in.  My emotional mind is preventing me from doing what my logical mind is telling me to do.  My wise mind cannot come to an agreement between my logical and emotional minds even though it is getting closer.

It sucks being a member of this big fat dysfunctional family of a 100000+ strong, but it is what it is.  We only can learn about it, so we can break the cycle, and to eventually make things better.

This ruminating reminds me of a saying, "If you are going through hell, keep going..."

I will wrap this up, with my number one piece of advice, and that is to do 'self-care' - make sure it includes individual therapy, exercise outdoors [as simple as a walk], among other activities that you enjoy doing to recharge your spirit.  It will make our respective journey's that much more tolerable.

Take care.

[Red5]

We were sighted, targeted, and then "taken".

*Nice
*Naive
*Non-Confrontational
*Low to zero conflict
*Safe
*Secure

(door mat)

= Target

-> Codependency -> FOG -> stockholm syndrome

Now we know better (analysis paralysis).

#Boundries, I had none (zero).

I too am 'jaded', ... in no hurry, if ever, ... to re-enter a relationship with another woman, ... far to risky, dangerous, ... even with my 'radar' now tuned to detect _____.

About the peace, and the quiet, the 'master of my own' castle now, I go, I come, I buy, I take a nap, I visit, ... I tear down, I build back up, ... I indulge at my own 'whim', no longer under the control of the warden, the head master mistress, the "Trunchbull", ... the SWMBO.

It took some getting used to, but after the last 4.3 years, I don't see going back now.
#MGTOW(?)

I feel like I have had my brains scooped out sometimes.

Agree!, 'self-care' is absolutely key, ... and most importantly to me (also), a relationship with the big "G' God, the creator of all of this... solid groundings, foundational pillars (moralistic beliefs).

Sometimes, ... I go outside at night, and gaze up into the heavens, into the vast emptiness of the visible universe, beyond the light of visible stars, ... and I just 'breathe'.

Walking on the beach barefooted (grounding) is very good as well.

Also, 'chainsaw' therapy, ... followed by wood splitting.

Is this present homeostasis called "radical acceptance"?

A long row to 'hoe'.

Deep & personal introspection is also absolutely another key in this, what did I contribute, why was I drawn, why did I accept it, the levels (ascending) of abuse?

She attacked on a constant basis, my 'self-esteem', which is called emasculation.

What is it about me, that makes (made) me seek her out, after being married to another one (bpd) for over twenty years, as well a GF interim, ... which also taught me a lot, although I didn't realize it at the time, but was smart enough (signs?) to EJECT from that one.

# both wife No.2, ... and the hot redheaded Volvo driving (brown leather driving gloves) real-estate agent (one and only girlfriend interim) GF; ... were both also married before, both 20+ years each, ... "one would think"?

One time is an accident, two times is a trend/pattern, three times is (overt-offensive) combat action.

Famous lines :
*I feel safe with you.
*All I ever wanted was a Prince Charming to take care of me.
*You handled me well.
*My ex-fiancée knew how to treat a woman, YOU DON'T!
*I am tired of one-night stands, I am ready for a long-term, steady relationship.
*We are going to just date, we are NOT going to get married.
*You are a quiet and peaceful man.

After a while, I grew (operant conditioning) to actually look forward to the silent treatment (ST), ... that was a respite from the constant gas-lighting, projections, ... and never ending trauma drama & chaos (created).

I thought I had been through it, with wife No.1, ... thought I had learnt some things, nope...

"what an education" ... wow : (

Guy on the YT channel once said, ... "If you have a woman that tears you, and what you build down, get away from her, if you are lucky enough to have a woman that builds with you, and actually builds along with you, then you are truly blessed" ...

I am fifty-seven now, if I get it all figured out by the time, I hit one-hundred, well I guess then we will see huh ...

Red5

[jaded7]

We were sighted, targeted, and then "taken".

*Nice
*Naive
*Non-Confrontational
*Low to zero conflict
*Safe
*Secure



#Boundries, I had none (zero).





Sometimes, ... I go outside at night, and gaze up into the heavens, into the vast emptiness of the visible universe, beyond the light of visible stars, ... and I just 'breathe'.


Deep & personal introspection is also absolutely another key in this, what did I contribute, why was I drawn, why did I accept it, the levels (ascending) of abuse?

She attacked on a constant basis, my 'self-esteem', which is called emasculation.

What is it about me, that makes (made) me seek her out, after being married to another one (bpd) for over twenty years,
Famous lines :
*I feel safe with you.
*All I ever wanted was a Prince Charming to take care of me.
*You handled me well.
*My ex-fiancée knew how to treat a woman, YOU DON'T!
*I am tired of one-night stands, I am ready for a long-term, steady relationship.
*We are going to just date, we are NOT going to get married.
*You are a quiet and peaceful man.


Guy on the YT channel once said, ... "If you have a woman that tears you, and what you build down, get away from her, if you are lucky enough to have a woman that builds with you, and actually builds along with you, then you are truly blessed" ...


Red5

I just selected a few pieces of this to highlight, discuss...

Naive, low conflict kind of person, trusting the person means what they say, trusting that 'love' means the same thing to them as it does to you. These are all characteristics that we on the boards share I believe. I've struggled to makes sense of it for a long time, just like you. I think about her every hour, almost every minute, although we've been no-contact for three years. I imagine her coming to her senses, realizing that I'm a kind and supportive partner who would never hurt her. I wait for the apology/acknowledgement that never comes. I struggle to move on.

Boundaries. They are at first, thought not to be necessary. Why would someone who loves me intentionally hurt me? Call me a 'shi**y businessman', 'shi**ty driver', call my gifts to her 'shi**ty' and 'stupid'. Tell me I am 'shi**y driver and she's never riding with me again' or 'worthless in a grocery store' or 'You don't wan't to go shopping, you're just trying to cover your as*'?  Why, why, why. She must be really hurting inside, it must be trauma of her previous 'abusive' relationship...she wouldn't really mean those things. She loves me, she says so. But, it becomes clear over time that one must set boundaries- about yelling at me, about ghosting me, about not keeping her commitments (while demeaning me and yelling at me about supposedly not keeping commitments, not true).

These boundaries are immediately violated, with added blame for 'making' her do the things she did- 'this never would have happened if you didn't _____', 'I felt rejected'...etc . etc. More confusion, this is all my fault for being a bad person, I deserve it.

I love the idea of gazing up at the stars, seeking space and expansion, getting out of the head.

"I feel safe with you", "you handle me well", "All I ever wanted was someone to take care of me"...your ex

My ex "I feel safe", "you put up with me (smile)", "will you take care of me? (crying)"

If you have a woman that tears you, and what you build, down

Constant. Could not do anything right, mocked my work ethic and my business, and how I ran my business, and how I spoke to potential partners, and how I dressed ("slob", "given how you dress when you meet with potential partners...", "what, are those old man underwear your wearing? Don't I wear nice underwear for you?" as I stood mostly naked, changing in the room, vulnerable. Writing was horrible, marketing was bad, I eat "shi**y food" and when "you do that it makes me not want to have sex with you", snapping at me in bed when I tried to initiate sex ("if you want sex, touch me in a sexy way!" as I put my arm around her as she got into bed...and she sat there like a cold rock, turned away from me), blowing up at me when I gently, kindly, turned down sex.

These words, obviously, are burned into my psyche...they haunt me, they hurt me.

I can absolutely feel where you're coming from.

[Red5]

I think, ... that once they know (come to an understanding?) that "you know" (maybe sub-consciously), ... that you become a target, shame (as well control) is a real thing with p/wbpd/npd ... anytime you bump up against their narcissism, and unintentionally cause them a narcissistic wound, ... then you can now STFB for more of the treatment, with a side ration of "salt in the would" (4 you).

... "you know" means you've awakened, gained some degree of perspective/understanding, and now you are starting to see just what has been happening in your relationship ... "perpetual, repeating patterns of negative behaviors" ...

Some p/wbpd/npd have no idea what they are doing, but some (maybe most?) absolutely do know.
*"you handled me well"*
*"I have a hot temper Red, do you think you can handle me?"*

... how 'cute' ?

Another known, ... I read (past tense) it all the time, ... never never NEVER tell the SO (p/wbpd/npd) that "they are a borderline, or else a narcissist", ... you will light off a *Saturn V*, ... yeah : (

I of course like to learn all my lessons the hard way, and at first in a well meaning way, but afterwards as a last resort (JADE) in yet another pointless circular argument, ... I did just that (aforementioned).

Big mistake, or maybe not?

*(quote)*
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn:
"They lie to us, we know they're lying, they know we know they're lying, but they keep lying to us, and we keep pretending to believe them."

... maybe replace the word lie with gaslighting, or maybe projection ... or maybe 'magical thinking' (rewriting history to suit) ...

*Accountability (relationship) = 'controlling' to a p/wbpd/npd
*Boundaries (held) = 'abuse' to a p/wbpd/npd

One things for sure, (my situation), the stronger and more "enlightened" I have become irt subject (since the summer of 2016 - fall of 2018), ... the wider a berth she has given me (post separation), I have learned to not engage her (JADE), & not to 'over explain' (TMI), ... I practice 'succinct' responses, and only when necessary do I respond, ... more 'readings' say to, ... say exactly what you are going to do, ... tell them, & do not ask them, or else ask their opinion on the subject (myriad), ... then do it, ... and immediately go back to NC (no contact), or "gray rock", ... , ... be quick, and to the point, ... "No." is absolutely a complete sentence.

*eternal victimhood, ... enables perpetual entitlement*

Red5

[SaltyDawg]

Red V,

   Your analysis is spot on. Thank you for sharing. If you have any other nuggets of wisdom please share them with us?

   Your style of observation is concise and succinct which is very refreshing.

Take care.

Salty

[Gemsforeyes]

Ah, Red…

Always so nice to read from you.  Your insights are so well-tuned and well-timed.

In each of these sentiments posted by all to this thread, I can easily substitute “he” for “she”.  My 25.5 years in committed relationships (2) is my living proof.  A common and sad irony does seem to be that some of us share a history of these types of interactions, even in short-term romantic and non-romantic relationships.  Deep ouch.

So if ever, tho’ I doubt I’ll allow any man that close again… but if EVER any man were to say to me:  “Where in the world have you BEEN all my Life??”  I would respond, “In a place I intend to return right now!”

There is one thing that was a mystery to me, with both my exH and my exBF (both very clearly BPD/NPD).  No matter the level of dishonesty, nastiness, screaming, etc during the day, once they got into bed at night, it was instant sleep.  No tossing or turning.  I once asked my exBF what he sees when he first closes his eyes.  He said “darkness”.  I laughed.  It had been a particularly rough day, and it was hard for me to fathom how some of what he had done did NOT replay as he first laid down.  But not an afterthought.  That’s simply how he rolled.

And “No” is a complete sentence.  Took me years to understand I was allowed to firmly lay that boundary.

Warmly,
Gems

[SaltyDawg]

There is one thing that was a mystery to me, with both my exH and my exBF (both very clearly BPD/NPD).  No matter the level of dishonesty, nastiness, screaming, etc during the day, once they got into bed at night, it was instant sleep.  No tossing or turning.  I once asked my exBF what he sees when he first closes his eyes.  He said “darkness”.  I laughed.  It had been a particularly rough day, and it was hard for me to fathom how some of what he had done did NOT replay as he first laid down.  But not an afterthought.  That’s simply how he rolled.

Gems,

Fascinating on the 'sleep observation'. 

Might I suggest creating a new topic with a poll?  I am interested in this correlation just as others are interested if their pwBPD is neat or messy.

I know for me, it all depends on my level of tiredness and anxiety.

If I am extremely tired, and have no anxiety from the day's events, I can fall asleep in under 5 minutes, or as soon as my head hits the pillow.  I also suspect I have apnea which contributes to my tiredness and I can fall asleep sitting up watching a tv show/movie that fails to keep my interest.

However, if my uBPDw threatens divorce or some other issue that triggers me, then I cannot sleep, and toss and turn for hours, getting as little as 4 hours in a night [and that is only from exhaustion].

I also used to work in a field where I had no idea how much sleep I would be getting, so I trained myself to fall asleep faster than most using meditation techniques of clearing my mind of thoughts which allowed for sleep to happen faster.

Salty

[Red5]

#Salty quote
Gems,

"Fascinating on the 'sleep observation'.

Might I suggest creating a new topic with a poll?  I am interested in this correlation just as others are interested if their pwBPD is neat or messy."

Thats an awesome idea!

"Cleared Hot!"

Sleep,...

Yup, my ex-wife (childhood bride - 21yrs.3months.8daze) used to tell me all the time, "I don't ever dream, if I do, I don't ever remember them".

Interim GF (HRH), also told me the same thing, hmmm...

Wife No.2, also told me, "I never dream".

All three women, also; were not "ticklish", at all! ... zero, ... another hmmm...

*What's up with that?*

Being a retired aviation type Marine, ... I learned long ago to 'sleep anywhere', ... anytime, ... and had the ability to stay awake for hours on end, (extreme dopamine "high") due to working around operating jet aircraft & ordnance, sometimes on an aircraft carrier flightdeck, at night ...

But; when I (did) do sleep, I have very vivid, wild, & full sense (senses) dreams, some I can remember for a few minutes to hours after I wake, some for much longer, I have dream 'flashbacks', I lucid dream, ... and I have re-occurring dreams, some dreams I still remember from early childhood(?), ... as well later... constantly.

*DeJa'Vu?*

I often think about, and try to read & learn about 'dreams', ... eg' ...where do we really go when we dream?

Yeah!

As Gems writes & relates, ... Me2, ... also heard from interim GF (HRH) & wife No.2,
"I feel like I've known you my whole life"
"where have you been"
"I've had to kiss a lot of frogs to get to you Red" (wife No.2 quote)

Yeah, very very interested in hearing, reading on a 'dreams post', ...

Might add, ... wife No.2 would talk in her sleep, and she also slept deeply, and heavily, ... and if you were to accidently 'wake' her, oh yeah, ... no filter, ...   ... yup : (

Quick war story...
She, wife No.2 had an alarm clock that she brought aboard from her home when we got married, ... I hated it, but tolerated it, ... I used to joke with her, ... "that thing sounds like a 'U-Boat Dive Alarm', ... Achtung! ... "when it goes off in the morning!", ... "can't we get one that plays seagulls, thunderstorms, ... or the ocean maybe", ... nope, all I got was more  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suY06PVK_bI

She never thought that was funny, ... nope.

I have always been able to, for decades now, "make" myself wake up almost exactly when I want/need to, ... prab-lee more Marine Corps "life training"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_LqoElctAU

 

... I never sleep very deeply either, also as Salty says, ... maybe I sleep semi-deeply for about 4 hours or so, each night, has been like this for many years, ... "one eye opened", ... might also be from having three kids (all grown up now {2.5}), ... another funny, ... after years of "operant/negative reinforcement "training" from wife  No.2, ... I seem to sleep much better on one of the three leather couches in this home, ... yup, ... how many nights, days , weeks, one time for over a month, No.2 banished me from the marital bedroom (& Bed), ... this old leather couch here in the man-cave is my fav, ... but I have to share with the GSD, ... as he likes it too .

I have a little saying, that I say to myself almost everyday, ... "If you cannot laugh at it", then you are already dead, ... so LAUGH!

Red~> out//