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Author Topic: Borderline and Freud's hysteria  (Read 440 times)
Methuen
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« on: March 03, 2023, 01:32:07 PM »

Now that I am tuned in and "know some things" about BPD, I came home from an appointment that has led to some not great news in a chronic condition.  There is some chance that it ends in surgery, which I would gladly have for the opportunity to even potentially improve the condition.  Of course there are risks which are not desirable.  First I have to see a specialist to see if surgery is even possible.

Which got me to thinking.

If my mom had this, all kinds of drama would be going on.  But I accept the news, and move forward in a way that is helpful to myself and the condition.  I do not draw my husband or adult children into it, or have these crazy intense emotional attacks where I have to dump my feelings on my loved ones, or look for pity, or 24/7 attention, or find the need to blame someone else...or obsess about "why me" or for that matter, blow it completely out of proportion, or alternatively, deny it completely.

In fact, I have multiple chronic conditions going on, and I just try to manage them and get on with life as I can.

Which got me to thinking about Freud and his theories of female hysteria.  I'm speculating that Freud would have diagnosed my mom as an hysteric.  And then the penny dropped.  So I sat down and googled "Freud's hysterical women and BPD" - and there it was.  The modern day term for female hysteria is BPD.  Up popped all kinds of hits from all sorts of sources, including government and reliable sources. Connecting those dots only took seconds, and yet I have had a lifetime of strife with a difficult mother.  Just wow.

The connections makes a whole ton of sense.  I was never a fan of Freud personally.  I much preferred other's theories in the field of psychology.  But he did know some things, although in my learnings, the focus seemed to be on female hysteria as opposed to some of the corollary issues also in men, and the treatments seemed to be more beneficial to the men of the time, rather than female focussed.  Nevertheless, I started to wonder how far back there is a written record of what we know of as BPD.  Turns out, according to google, it goes a very long way back.

Which makes me wonder how it has evolved that so much of our wellness research and learning and knowledge including the knowledge of everyday citizens is so focussed on physical well-being instead of sharing space equally with mental well being. When will this change?

It doesn't seem right that so many of us struggle through life with our disordered family members without support from a system or series of systems, other than what we can find here on an internet forum or in a 12 step group.  I was probably 55 before I started asking myself questions about my mother, and it took another 2-3 for me investigate deeply into what was going on, and self-educate.  That took a lot of work on my part.

I have not found evidence of support in the medical system (including the long term care system) or the education system.  I don't have experience with the legal or justice system in this area. My experience is that my mom's doctor really doesn't want to be bothered with any information I give about her mental health symptoms.  He only wants to treat her physical symptoms.  At least that is my perception because that is where all his time goes.  This hasn't been helpful to her, because mental and physical health are connected.  And of course there is no support for families who act as caretakers for family members that are undiagnosed, and I'm guessing there's limited support for families even where it is diagnosed.  I also wonder what percentage of mental health issues are undiagnosed.  I'm guessing it's higher than we think. I feel there are a lot of gaps.

On the other hand, I wonder how many more cycles in family history could be broken if there was more education and less stigmatizing around mental health disorders.  What if there was more education?  What if there was more empathy?  What if more interventions were available like they are with cancer or health disease?  And to take a giant leap, I wonder if there would be less tyranny in the world if there were early interventions available in mental health, without stigmatization, like there are with physical health (for cancer, heart disease etc).  And to leap even farther, I wonder if even some wars would not happen if some political leaders had received early intervention to help resolve some of their issues which led to a need for complete power and control.  That is a macro level, but on a micro level, there is the same problem with families.  

There is so much that could be done, and mental health just seems like a good place to start.

Just some musings, after the drop of a penny between Freud's female hysteria, my mother,  and BPD.
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Notwendy
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« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2023, 03:52:51 PM »

I agree, but also we need to put this in historical context too. If mental health conditions got the same attention as medical ones, they may have been treating them with leeches or other concoctions that were thought to help in their time which would not have helped much. And before that, they'd call in some kind of healer to address the spirits that took over them.

It's interesting that Freud made it a female problem too. In our mother's era, there was much disincentive to expose any mental issues as that would hinder a woman's chance to marry. Most women did not have careers and were expected to marry a man who would then support the family. I imagine my mother's parents suspected something was going on, but the only hope for my mother to have a "normal" life was to find a husband to take care of her.

I think it's only been in our most recent times that mental health issues have come out of the shadows. I agree that much could have been better if there was intervention before this but I wonder if we just were not culturally or scientifically ready for that.

I know that my parents had to be aware of something because at the time they married, Freudian psychoanalysis was still in practice and considered a standard for therapy. I have some memory of my mother talking about having done this and I am pretty sure she was in this kind of therapy in her early years of marriage. She made it sound like something everybody did- as if everyone was doing psychoanalysis so I didn't question it at the time.

I agree with you that support for the family members would have been a good thing and also probably more effective for those dealing with it. I also was middle age before I understood BPD and also feel that more support would be helpful. I did read about Freud a while back though. There was a psychology class in my high school and I took it to try to understand what was going on with my mother at the time. The part I remember was that people were either neurotic or psychotic, but didn't see another category. I stopped reading about the topic as I didn't find a good explanation at the time. After college, I got busy with other things.

Finding out about BPD was accidental. We were dealing with a person with NPD in our community and I looked it up on the internet. I thought "this sounds like BPD mother but not exactly"- then the page took me to BPD and it just jumped off the page as the better fit.

I am sorry to hear about your struggles with health conditions. You are dealing with this like a normal stable person. And all the more reasons to take care of yourself.



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Couscous
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Relationship status: Married
Posts: 1072


« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2023, 03:58:54 PM »

I believe that Hysteria is now called Histrionic personality disorder. Apparently HPD often co-occurs with both BPD and NPD, so it could be that mother has both disorders.
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Notwendy
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« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2023, 04:13:17 PM »

If anything, I think there's less support in the medical system now than before due to how visits and coded for time and complexity. Practitioners don't have time to deal with more than the reason for the visit in the moment. I don't think most of them are happy with the current system and many don't have the choice as they are employees of a practice or hospital system.

Mental health care seems to be lacking for all involved too. It's unfortunate your mother's doctor can't give as much attention to her emotional issues and I think this is the situation for most providers these days.
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zachira
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Posts: 3236


« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2023, 10:44:07 AM »

One of the hardest lessons for me to learn and I am still learning has been people can only respond at the level of awareness of self and others that they are at themselves. Most people are not as evolved as many members on this site who have gotten to the point in which they wanted to deal with and understand their own mental health and the mental health of disordered family members. In my experiences, many people are not evolved enough to have deep empathy for another person's pain, and quickly change the conversation to something analytical or suggest taking some kind of action without showing any empathy for the person in pain. Of course, we have to protect ourselves by not being too overwhelmed by empathy for long periods of time, though showing small amounts of empathy at the right time, can make a big difference in helping another person to heal.
I am sad to hear about your health, and do hope your health will improve, especially when the time comes when things are more finalized with your mother and you experience some long term relief that the worst is behind you.  
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Riv3rW0lf
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Relationship status: Estranged; Complicated
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« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2023, 04:53:05 PM »

Hi Methuen,

Just popped in today and read your post, while I know you aren't looking for pity, while I know you have the strength necessary to carry the weight of your responsibilities, emotions, and health challenges, I still wanted to take a few minutes to send thoughts your way.

I can only imagine what it is to have to constantly manage a health condition, it must become second nature, yet it is still always on the back of your head and requires a lot of discipline. I am sorry for the devolving situation and the possible surgery you might have to go through. While I know you are strong and will get through it all, know that you are not alone, and that wherever you are, this internet stranger is giving you a big hug.  Virtual hug (click to insert in post)
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PearlsBefore
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« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2023, 06:06:24 PM »

Spend another rabbit-hole investigating Emil Kraepelin and Haltlose Personality Disorder - then I'll fly you to my continent and make a 4-day teaparty to discuss our findings.

But yeah, seriously I find the absolute fixation on CBT and its modified-by-an-actual-BPD-to-be-less-reality-based DBT cousin very detrimental for actually understanding Borderline Personality Disorder and I absolutely love to read the old "Austrian School" type of analysis of the same thing.

Because until you read Freud or Kraepelin, you can't really begin to discuss whether it's even a universal deficit or isn't found in certain cultures, etc. We've literally tried to take cause and effect and any rational analysis away from the study of BPD and instead just focus on utilitarianist humanism - how can we make them feel good and how can we feel good.

The tea party is a semi-legitimate offer to anyone interested in schnitzel und schizophrenie, or halibut innen lederhosen und haltlosen.
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Cast not your pearls before swine, lest they trample them, and turn and rend you. --- I live in libraries; if you find an academic article online that you can't access but might help you - send me a Private Message.
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