Hi I could use some advise

[BurnedOnce]

First, Hello

     I've been reading, watching and listening to various resources for those with a BPD partner for about a year now, after my wife was diagnosed. Our 22 year relationship began when we were both young adults and turned mildly turbulent starting about three months in. At first it was her making comments about how I didn't want her or something and passing it off half jokingly, that turned into breaking up every weekend and getting back together shortly after I was good and mortified. Over the years, it would escalate into countless, intense verbal arguments with things often being thrown or destroyed out of spite and usually over some unclear or arbitrary reason. This turned into one of the most intense paranoid bout of alleged infidelity I've ever witnessed, including "You took too long starting your truck this morning, you must have been cheating on me outside!" (took me about five seconds because it was cold and I just wanted a warm truck). From there, things turned physically violent as her paranoia grew and eventually lead us to couple's therapy for us and individual treatment for her in 2018.

We acknowledged that we both had some issues in couples therapy and pledged to work on them as well as her pledge to better herself after one night nearly burning the house down because she thought it would be a good idea to set my clothes on fire in a pile in the middle of the basement. CWS was called on my wife when our daughter (then 8) told her school counselor about the situation. So, for a year after a major incident, she either remained managed or wore the mask well, one or the other. Forward to 2020 and my wife started spiraling downward again after changing jobs and realizing that our daughter is nearing becoming a teenager.

Despite me noting many, many times that she was spiraling downward and suggesting that she make some improvements to her life if she wanted a happy marriage and a marriage, period, I was ignored and/or not taken seriously. The spiral continued into 2022 where the relationship between my wife and my (then 12) daughter reached a boiling point and my wife exploded in a violent, psychotic bout of rage and betrayal, threatening me, our daughter and screaming lies about me to the top of her lungs, trying to turn my daughter against me. It was so bad that an ambulance had to be called when the cops finally showed up to take our daughter to mental health inpatient. While our daughter was riding in the ambulance, my wife was texting her the whole time, continuing to tell her these wild and untrue stories about me in attempt to sever our relationship which she was eventually (temporarily, somewhat) successful in doing. My wife then came to the hospital waiting room and scrolled down through all those texts, holding her phone in front of me with a smirk on her face.

I told her she was on her final chance the next day.

Two months later, my wife exploded again over a $11 cat carrier from Goodwill and threatened to send the kids to foster care, have the dogs put down, anything she could think of to emotionally abuse anyone who would listen to her ramblings. Things eventually calmed down that day and I went to work that evening, only to have to leave because our daughter started texting me that "mama has left suicide notes and tried to break into the gun safe and now she's run off and left us alone and I'm scared". So, when I got home she had left suicide notes for both children, aged 12 and 10, tried to break into the long gun safe where I keep several semi-automatic rifles and no handguns, gotten in her car and fled the scene. I called the police again and this time had her 302d and filed a restraining order. I demanded that she get sober (she'd become a bad alcoholic) and pull herself together if she wanted to see the kids regularly.

The first three months out of the hospital, she functioned very well and I think the kids started to miss having her around so, thinking she'd changed, I lifted the restraining order in August of last year. From about two weeks in from lifting the PFA until late November, I noticed arguments start building again and the pattern of her verbal abuse certainly had not stopped at least her abuse of me, that is. I stopped it from escalating further by leaving her and going no contact for two months.

Here's my problem. - I started having a hard time on my own in February of this year and unblocked her number, made contact and went back for three weeks only to decide that I was foolish to do this and our relationship could not be repaired. I left again and lasted another two months and now I'm back again and at this point I really don't know why aside from I encountered hard times alone and got homesick.

Now, she's promising that she'll never do it again and she's all better because she's in the right treatment and she's determined to be a good mother and wife but just last week she admitted to calling our 13 year old daughter a bitch because she was frustrated. I am wondering why it took me walking the heck out after 22 years and going NC to get her to straighten up and if she really is shouldering responsibility for herself or simply playing me like a fiddle. She does not seem to show a great deal of remorse for the duration or severity of abuse she's inflicted onto others and she's had 22 years to straighten up and has been aware that she's got some pretty serious mental health problems for a long time now.

I know people might advise me that I shouldn't have broke NC and shouldn't have opened myself up to be in this position in the first place and they're more than likely right but here I am, questioning if she could be genuine or is it just more false hope on my behalf? I don't really care too much for her after everything she's done for me but I care about my kids and won't be able to take them with me (I couldn't when I walked the first time) until I get my life somewhat rebuilt and get back on solid ground.

So... Rate my codependency, I guess... How much of a sucker am I for going back to someone who's abused me for 22 years in hopes that she'll change and be the person I always needed her to be but never got (for very long)?

At this point, my brain thinks I'm stupid for even feeling conflicted... So why am I feeling conflicted?

I suspect she's on her best behavior toward me now to avoid the consequence of being abandoned instead of recognizing that she's been an awful person and wanting to make amends or peace for those she's hurt.

I'd be much obliged for some feedback on this, please deal it to me straight no matter how harsh it is.

Thank you

[ForeverDad]

  Welcome, though of course we regret the circumstances that brought you here.

... but here I am, questioning if she could be genuine or is it just more false hope on my behalf? I don't really care too much for her after everything she's done for me but I care about my kids and won't be able to take them with me (I couldn't when I walked the first time) until I get my life somewhat rebuilt and get back on solid ground.

I suspect she's on her best behavior toward me now to avoid the consequence of being abandoned instead of recognizing that she's been an awful person and wanting to make amends or peace for those she's hurt.

Could she be genuine?  You already know the answer.  You've been there so many times before.  As you wrote, when she has to face her consequences, she behaves better - for a while - but always returns to her prior patterns, her "comfort zone".

There are comparisons here we make, one is that life with a pwBPD is like a scary roller coaster with it's ups and downs but periodically it rolls into the station where you can get off.  You did get off for a while, more than once, problem is that you got back on.  That's on you.  Presumably you have a counselor to objectively remark on why you keep getting back onto your roller coaster life, when you know better.  (If you don't have a counselor, then interview a few and pick one that would be most helpful for you.)

Here's a member's post which I copied to The Bridge thread.  (If you haven't read The Bridge, then please read it here too.

The Bridge
The Backyard Black Hole

[BurnedOnce]

Welcome, though of course we regret the circumstances that brought you here.

Could she be genuine?  You already know the answer.  You've been there so many times before.  As you wrote, when she has to face her consequences, she behaves better - for a while - but always returns to her prior patterns, her "comfort zone".

There are comparisons here we make, one is that life with a pwBPD is like a scary roller coaster with it's ups and downs but periodically it rolls into the station where you can get off.  You did get off for a while, more than once, problem is that you got back on.  That's on you.  Presumably you have a counselor to objectively remark on why you keep getting back onto your roller coaster life, when you know better.  (If you don't have a counselor, then interview a few and pick one that would be most helpful for you.)

Here's a member's post which I copied to The Bridge thread.  (If you haven't read The Bridge, then please read it here too.

The Bridge
The Backyard Black Hole

Thank you for this.

[livednlearned]

How much of a sucker am I for going back to someone who's abused me for 22 years in hopes that she'll change and be the person I always needed her to be but never got (for very long)?

Oh my gosh, I would never judge someone for going back. Who here hasn't?

You have kids with her, you spent all those years with her, she's saying hopeful things that maybe even she believes. She's in treatment and in her own way, she's trying.

It sounds like you felt uncomfortable being by yourself. Maybe some uncomfortable feelings came up and she's been your go-to for distracting from those feelings for so long. My ex came with so much drama and baggage I rarely had to really think about my own stuff. That's what we're getting out of these relationships a lot of the time. 

At this point, my brain thinks I'm stupid for even feeling conflicted... So why am I feeling conflicted?

Maybe you're conflicted, but you're also kinda hard on yourself. 

I suspect she's on her best behavior toward me now to avoid the consequence of being abandoned instead of recognizing that she's been an awful person and wanting to make amends or peace for those she's hurt.

If she's BPD there's probably not a day goes by when she doesn't feel like an awful person. Her issue is probably that she came up with truly awful coping adaptations that make things worse before they get better. She only knows those ways. It could take way too much strength to even feel the shame for everything she's done and said.

When I was contemplating whether to stay or leave, my litmus test was whether I could do whatever it took to keep my son safe and try to raise a healthy kid. For a lot of us, these are intergenerational patterns. You have to change the script and that's probably nearly as hard for us to do as it is for someone with BPD.

Your kids are at a big age for making some important changes. Have you done any family counseling with them?

[BurnedOnce]

Your kids are at a big age for making some important changes. Have you done any family counseling with them?

The last time we tried family counseling it wound up only my son and I participating. My daughter seems to resent both her mother and me at this point and I'm beginning to fear that she's developing the same pathology as her mom at this point.

Family therapy discharged us because nothing was getting resolved because half the family flat out wouldn't participate.

[ForeverDad]

One size doesn't necessarily fit all.  Getting some benefits is better than none.  It's sadly predictable that the parent with acting-out behaviors will probably refuse therapy.  Therefore, individual counseling is also available.  (As my lawyer exclaimed, "courts love counseling!")  And some counselors may accept your insurance plan or even do sliding scale for affordable payments.

Also, children typically have counseling sessions without the parents, though parents often may be included at the start or end of sessions so they can hear or express what is currently needed.  Would your kids, especially your daughter, benefit from that approach?

Some grown children who are adult members here recall expressing resentment at their reasonably normal parent because that parent tolerated the dysfunction in the family.  Sure, probably the parent couldn't fix things from within the marriage, but as scary as it may seem, ending the marriage so the child didn't have constant exposure to the problem parent should have been considered.

[livednlearned]

Family therapy discharged us because nothing was getting resolved because half the family flat out wouldn't participate.

Sounds like you need a more attuned therapist willing to help. At least you and the kids, if only to deal with the suicidal threats and whatnot.

Did your kids get any therapy for dealing with the suicidal behaviors?

The backbone of my recovery began with talking to a child psychologist on my own. I asked her to give me an honest appraisal of my son's outlook given what our home life was like. It wasn't good. Then I bought books about raising emotionally kids and read them, some of them twice.

There's a good chance that proper emotional validation of your kids' feelings (and your own) probably eludes you. It seems to be something that goes along with codependence. I had to learn how to do it because I was a full dum dum when it came to knowing what I felt, much less what my son was feeling.

Don't Alienate the Kids: Raising Emotionally Resilient Kids When A Parent Has BPD/NPD by Bill Eddy

You Don't Have to Make Everything All Better by the Lundstrom's.

Those two books were game changers. I was a loving mother but I was less than fully attuned to what my son was feeling, so he became quite shut down and felt very isolated and alone. That's the root of a lot of trauma. I think it was Bessel van der Kolk who wrote that when your reality is not allowed to be seen and known, that is the trauma.

If you're worried about your daughter developing traits, BPD in Adolescence by Blaire Aguirre is essential reading. I would not assume your daughter is on her way to developing BPD but the fact you are concerned says she's in trouble and needs your help.

She may be emotionally traumatized but you have some moves here that could be life-changing for her and probably for you. 

[ForeverDad]

If you're worried about your daughter developing traits, BPD in Adolescence by Blaire Aguirre is essential reading. I would not assume your daughter is on her way to developing BPD but the fact you are concerned says she's in trouble and needs your help.

She may be emotionally traumatized but you have some moves here that could be life-changing for her and probably for you.

For all any of us know, it could be that your daughter merely has "BPD fleas", traits she displays based upon how she deals with the dysfunction in the family.  Time will tell, of course, but the sooner practical strategies are made, the better the outcome.

[BurnedOnce]

Also, children typically have counseling sessions without the parents, though parents often may be included at the start or end of sessions so they can hear or express what is currently needed.  Would your kids, especially your daughter, benefit from that approach?

Both of our kids have been in therapy for a few years now, individually. It seems more beneficial to our son(10) than our daughter(13).

Some grown children who are adult members here recall expressing resentment at their reasonably normal parent because that parent tolerated the dysfunction in the family.  Sure, probably the parent couldn't fix things from within the marriage, but as scary as it may seem, ending the marriage so the child didn't have constant exposure to the problem parent should have been considered.

I think our son might be able to accept however the cards might fall as long as chaos doesn't persist. Our daughter seems like she doesn't know what she wants and from my perspective, it's unclear as to what would disrupt her more.

She knows the relationship between her mother and I is toxic and abusive and expresses not wanting the cycle to repeat itself but gets mad at me for leaving and stops talking to me which is a contributing factor in why I keep going back..

If I had a magic wand and could simply start over again on top instead of being knocked all the way down to the bottom and having to fight my way back up when my life is half over it would be one thing. It's like a spouse with BPD makes it so that it'll cost you both your arms and legs to leave but at least you'll be alive.

The estrangement of one, possibly two kids is a risk with divorcing a BPD spouse, as is the risk that borderline will become vindictive (that's a guarantee in my case) upon realizing it's over.

"Freedom isn't free" - no kidding...

Is it worth the risk, is it worth the potential sacrifice?

Or is it possible for an abusive borderline to change their ways through therapy or do these relationships consist of the codependent more or less making concessions and developing the tools to better deal with the abuse?

I know the only sure-fire solution to avoid facing a monster is to exit and I know that monster will do everything in her power to make my exit a living hell. What's so warped about this is that having not walked away earlier has already made my life and my kids lives a living hell but yet, here I am still hoping that one last chance will  make a difference. Here I am still feeling sorry for her and guilty for considering myself when I've been used, financially exploited, demeaned, verbally and physically assaulted for decades...

It really is the embodiment of Jekyll and Hyde except Jekyll is a benevolent angel and Hyde is a sadistic demon. I feel like an idiot for believing that there's any way forward that won't cause an excruciating degree of pain or damage and I lack self-confidence in being able to surmount further torture, either way.

It's like I'm battered and completely exhausted and I'm surrounded by a burning field behind me from which the only escape is jumping off a cliff into shark infested waters.

[turtleengine501]

You have done absolutely nothing wrong here. Part of the BPD personality is to push and pull their romantic partner. It's a constant psychologically abusive game of trying to push you away so they can prove you would abandon them while desperately needing you to stay. I experienced this constantly with my ex. Their goal is to punish and abuse, then convince you they have or will change in order to suck you back into the insanity so the cycle can begin again.

What you need to focus on is you and talking to a professional about why you are letting yourself continue in this pattern. What are you getting out of it in the short-term at the expense of your long-term psychological safety? For me, it was being codependent from being raised by an alcoholic mother. I was taught from a young age that my worth was defined by how well I could "save" people. That was a pattern I repeated for 27 years with my ex until I physically began falling apart.

Once you free yourself of those false short-term gains that aren't beneficial to you, leaving becomes a clear decision. It's a tough road but if you are clear in your intentions to find freedom and peace, going back then seems like an impossible option. You have to put your needs ahead of your bpd spouse.

[ForeverDad]

Once you free yourself of those false short-term gains that aren't beneficial to you, leaving becomes a clear decision. It's a tough road but if you are clear in your intentions to find freedom and peace, going back then seems like an impossible option. You have to put your needs ahead of your bpd spouse.

Just an observation here... The site asks us not to say "run!" since there are so many factors and situations to consider.  So of course we are careful to limit ourselves to our "been there, done that" experiences, improving skills, providing time-tested strategies and pointing the way forward without quite ordering you what to do.

But be aware that when we say "maybe" the problem parent or problem spouse "might" improve eventually contrary to all past experience, well, that is typically a rare experience if the problem person (spouse or parent) refuses professional guidance or applying therapy.  However, this is not saying recovery can't happen because I'm sure somewhere someone can search and cite such an outcome - but refusing or avoiding therapy is such a strong indicator.

YOU simply can't fix an acting-out dysfunctional person.  That person has to do it for himself or herself henceforth, not promises but proof in actions over extended time, for self and not for you, not for the kids.  And since BPD is most evident with close relationships, the dysfunction is so impacting on the reasonably normal spouse and kids.  Sadly, you are simply too close and the dysfunctional person is too emotionally sensitized to you for your reasonable input to be followed.

[BurnedOnce]

What are you getting out of it in the short-term at the expense of your long-term psychological safety? For me, it was being codependent from being raised by an alcoholic mother. I was taught from a young age that my worth was defined by how well I could "save" people. That was a pattern I repeated for 27 years with my ex until I physically began falling apart.

Alcoholic mother here, too. She passed from liver failure a few months prior to my wife's "nuclear" explosion last year. I didn't have time to grieve or even begin processing my feelings regarding my mother's passing before getting thrown into another fire and I don't think those two events are unrelated in why I'm "stuck".

[Notwendy]

Alcoholic mother here, too. She passed from liver failure a few months prior to my wife's "nuclear" explosion last year. I didn't have time to grieve or even begin processing my feelings regarding my mother's passing before getting thrown into another fire and I don't think those two events are unrelated in why I'm "stuck".

I am sorry for the loss of your mother. The fact that your mother was addicted to alcohol is, I think, an important factor in why you took on the rescuer role for your wife. I am the adult daughter of a mother with BPD and have spent time in 12 step ACA groups. These issues involve the entire family in certain behavior patterns and the dynamics when there is a parent with BPD are very similar. I have found this program to be very helpful, not just with my family of origin but for myself as these behavioral patterns can influence all kinds of relationships.

You mentioned your daughter's behaviors and I think the ages of your children are significant as well. Your son is more compliant- but he's 10. Your D is an adolescent. This can be a challenging age for any parent as teens are asserting their own identity and will "push back" sometimes on the parent to do that. They don't know who they are yet. The know they are not their parents and so can "reject" that parent's ideas when trying to assert themselves. It takes an emotionally mature parent to handle this ( and can even challenge that parent as well). This doesn't mean they can misbehave. They need boundaries too. But they need a certain amount of space and leverage to be themselves within these boundaries.

Poor emotional regulation is part of BPD, so this can be a difficult situation for both. It was for me. I was parentified- enlisted as an emotional caretaker for my BPD mother. It was confusing to see a parent act as if she was "younger" than I was at the time and my behavior was held to a different standard. I think the "rules"  for me were appropriate but they didn't seem to apply to BPD mother.

The parent who had the most influence on what I see as appropriate behavior was my father though. He was the parent who seemed more invested in me. I didn't resent him, rather, I idolized him in a way, as I think most little girls do. Their "Daddy" is their hero. I attribute our resilience to his investment in us, both as provider and as parent.

As an adult though, it's a more confusing mix of feelings. I saw him as the "normal" parent and chose his behavior as a role model, and so co-dependency, rescuing, enabling were the "normal" behaviors I learned- and eventually worked on in ACA. I have  empathy for his situation. However, I also wonder how it is that he allowed my mother to treat us kids the way she did. I saw my mother as "the problem" and my father as the one who had no choice. I now understand his role in the dynamics too. I saw that "fleas" were mentioned too. Keep in mind that teen behaviors can mimic BPD. Poor sense of self, hormones are fluctuating and influence behaviors. Whether she has BPD or is struggling herself with her family situation has yet to be determined.

I think it would help to examine your own family patterns growing up as they can be repeated in the next generation. You can be the one to change these patterns for yourself and for your children.