uBPDw gives me ownership of her difficult emotions, builds resentment against me

[Joaquin]

I know none of this will sound unfamiliar, but my uBPDw sees me as fundamentally responsible for the difficult emotions she is incapable of managing or regulating internally. Early in the relationship (before I knew about BPD) I accepted full responsibility, lived on eggshells, and internalized every criticism and tried endlessly to mold myself according to her needs and complaints. Needless to say, I lost myself and it destroyed my health. I eventually snapped and there was a rough period with a lot of conflict, then the dynamic changed after the messy limit setting. Now that I’m educated in BPD, I try to stay nonreactive and SET limits, though sometimes things happen when I’m not emotionally prepared and I become a little reactive.

When there’s a conflict and I’m not perfectly 100% zen and nonreactive and loving, she sees the conflict itself as me victimizing her, no matter how she behaved or might’ve caused the conflict or how legitimate my emotions might’ve been. You know how it goes.

She genuinely sees me responsible for her negative feelings, so if she’s stressed or affected by an interaction between us, even if I’m mature and sensitive and nonreactive, her stress is direct evidence of the fact that I’m an unkind, uncaring partner. This just happened again. She said I don’t have a heart. Her view is that if I were a more caring partner, she wouldn’t feel this stress or pain. And every time she feels stress from our interactions, it adds to this deep feeling of hers that I’m a bad, uncaring partner. Doesn’t matter how much I say I love you and I care; all she wants to hear is that I’m sorry for causing all of her negative emotions and I’ll change myself so she doesn’t have to feel them ever again. Of course, when I actually killed myself trying to do that it didn’t work, I just got crushed in the process. I obviously also carry stress from our interactions, but I own my own feelings and only give her responsibility for her behavior. Her emotional dysfunction makes that impossible for her.

She’s in a really bad state today. I left my work (WFH) to try to help with the home and with our daughter to support her. I asked her how she’s feeling and what’s wrong etc. She started with some annoyances over the babysitter and quickly made it about how the way I talk to her is wrong and causes her so much pain (she asked me to get the new babysitter started with breakfast this morning and I agreed but clarified that I’d have to feed her breakfast myself once our daughter sees me; I didn’t mean this as argumentative but she perceived it as a slight). I remained calm and nonreactive and told her I loved her and cared but can’t take ownership of all the difficult emotions she has a hard time managing. She melted down and told me I don’t have a heart and something about anxiety over spending years with me in the future.

What do I do? I know all the stuff about setting limits, but she sees that itself as evidence I don’t care and am a bad partner. I’ll hold the limits, but she’ll keep feeling more and more negatively towards me because in her mind, love = enmeshment without limits and me being a full caretaker so that she can feel safe. Since I stopped accepting that dynamic she genuinely, fundamentally sees all of this as me being an unkind uncaring heartless partner. Do I just brace myself until it becomes totally unsustainable and breaks apart? Would love to hear from those with experience.

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[thankful person]

Hi again I just answered your other post. I have found the same tbh. I’ve been working on setting boundaries, standing up for myself and my children, self care, better relationships with my family, commitment to work etc for the past 2.5 years. Unfortunately I do feel like these things have made my wife not feel so close to me as when I was bending over backwards to please her every moment of every day. My letting go of being so upset over all this has made her feel like I don’t care. And it’s true, if I’m brutally honest, I really don’t care as much as I used to (about all this unnecessary drama). My wife’s greatest fear is that the children are my priority now. Again, yes they are. Their mental and emotional well-being is of utmost importance. I don’t know what the answer is or whether we will survive this marriage.

[Joaquin]

Thank you for sharing your difficult reality. It echoes mine and being able to connect with someone on something so difficult is really validating. Especially the way you give yourself permission to acknowledge hard truths and an uncertain outcome. Love and solidarity.

Hi again I just answered your other post. I have found the same tbh. I’ve been working on setting boundaries, standing up for myself and my children, self care, better relationships with my family, commitment to work etc for the past 2.5 years. Unfortunately I do feel like these things have made my wife not feel so close to me as when I was bending over backwards to please her every moment of every day. My letting go of being so upset over all this has made her feel like I don’t care. And it’s true, if I’m brutally honest, I really don’t care as much as I used to (about all this unnecessary drama). My wife’s greatest fear is that the children are my priority now. Again, yes they are. Their mental and emotional well-being is of utmost importance. I don’t know what the answer is or whether we will survive this marriage.

[waverider]

You really have to stay the course that stabilizes you. You probably know all about extinction bursts, pwBPD have extremely long extinction bursts but eventually what is normal will shift for them. It may even take years for them to roll with it and shift their angst to a new outlet. It may feel like you are playing chicken, and there is a real chance that it will be too much, and one of you will give it all away.

Holding your right to be you is really non negotiable, otherwise you will be back in the hole you were originally, and that was probably no easier a place to be, so capitulating simply gives yourself away for no net gain.

Drama is always going to happen, her sky will always be falling in, so you just have to make sure you still get your entitlement to some sunshine and let whatever the consequences are happen.

[Joaquin]

I just looked up extinction burst. This concept makes me nervous bc I know disengaging like that will escalate things horribly and make her see me as completely heartless and uncaring. It’ll essentially accelerate a breakup.

How do you do extinction while practicing validation and SET? Do you express empathy first and then say “I’m sorry but I have to disengage and let you try to regulate your emotions?” Do you say nothing? I know either will be perceived by her as an impossibly cruel abandonment which is her biggest fear, and she’ll immediately catastrophize likely to the point of breakup.

 

You really have to stay the course that stabilizes you. You probably know all about extinction bursts, pwBPD have extremely long extinction bursts but eventually what is normal will shift for them. It may even take years for them to roll with it and shift their angst to a new outlet. It may feel like you are playing chicken, and there is a real chance that it will be too much, and one of you will give it all away.

Holding your right to be you is really non negotiable, otherwise you will be back in the hole you were originally, and that was probably no easier a place to be, so capitulating simply gives yourself away for no net gain.

Drama is always going to happen, her sky will always be falling in, so you just have to make sure you still get your entitlement to some sunshine and let whatever the consequences are happen.

[Notwendy]

Acting out of our fears of a breakup is actually managing our own emotions, not theirs- we are giving in to manage our own fears. The result of doing this is resentment. One thing I learned in 12 step groups was to be tuned into when I was feeling resentful- because this was a sign to me that I was not being authentic.

So if the fear of a breakup is what is making you afraid of trying something different, then you will default to what feels familiar to you to reduce the fear. But trying something different feels risky because we don't know the outcome. She might get upset, she might leave you. But also she might not.

Besides the extinction burst, the strongest reinforcement is when you give in to the extinction burst. It's intermittent reinforcement. She will then learn that her escalation works to get what she wants from you.

A boundary isn't a boundary unless you can hold it no matter what. We all have them, we just have different ones. Boundaries reflect our values. Think of a boundary you would not waver on. What if she insisted that you go murder someone. I bet you wouldn't do it no matter what she did. ( hopefully not). But her demands are not that outrageous. It may be that you can't withstand the extinction burst at the moment. Better to not try and give in. But keep reading and learning. You may want to consider counseling for yourself- for support as you make your own behavioral changes.

[Joaquin]

Not acting out of fear is something I’m getting better at but still sometimes a challenge. The FOG was so intense and conditioned my instincts so effectively for the first years of the relationship that it’s hard for me to let it go completely. I can hold the line during the initial conflict, but the real challenge is during the aftermath (always worse than the initial conflict) when she pushes really hard for validation of her view that I’m responsible for her hurt feelings and that I need to change and be more caring so that it doesn’t happen again (essentially giving me ownership of the whole thing). It makes me feel really cornered and she won’t hear anything other than “you’re right, I’m sorry, yes I’ll be more loving.” Doesn’t matter how the events actually unfolded, how much she caused them, how distorted her perception of my actions is.

I’ve found that when I stay nonreactive and caring during the conflict/while setting the limit, the fallout is much shorter and less damaging. She’s shown some ability to perceive and even appreciate my effort at staying nonreactive even while she’s activated. So I’m trying to focus my energy on keeping myself in a healthy, mindful state so that I can stay above the dysregulation and maintain the calm caretaker vibe when things happen. This seems to be the most effective way to hold onto myself while managing her. Does that sound like the right direction?

Acting out of our fears of a breakup is actually managing our own emotions, not theirs- we are giving in to manage our own fears. The result of doing this is resentment. One thing I learned in 12 step groups was to be tuned into when I was feeling resentful- because this was a sign to me that I was not being authentic.

So if the fear of a breakup is what is making you afraid of trying something different, then you will default to what feels familiar to you to reduce the fear. But trying something different feels risky because we don't know the outcome. She might get upset, she might leave you. But also she might not.

Besides the extinction burst, the strongest reinforcement is when you give in to the extinction burst. It's intermittent reinforcement. She will then learn that her escalation works to get what she wants from you.

A boundary isn't a boundary unless you can hold it no matter what. We all have them, we just have different ones. Boundaries reflect our values. Think of a boundary you would not waver on. What if she insisted that you go murder someone. I bet you wouldn't do it no matter what she did. ( hopefully not). But her demands are not that outrageous. It may be that you can't withstand the extinction burst at the moment. Better to not try and give in. But keep reading and learning. You may want to consider counseling for yourself- for support as you make your own behavioral changes.

[LifewithEase]

Joaquin,

So much of this resonates with me.

I've been work very hard on boundaries yet still struggle with the chaos that happens when I try to set limits.

It is hardest on the day-to-day eruptions (e.g. you talk funny, don't use my name more than two times a day, we need to get rid of the dog, you purposely didn't clean my things in the kitchen, etc.).

But I see more positive movement during her "summit" meetings when she goes off. In particular, when she threatens divorce (happens about 5 to 10 times a year, usually during her hardest dysregulation benders).

So what do I do?

A form of radical acceptance in real time:

uBPDw: I'm going to divorce you. You have no say. I could do it tomorrow. You and your silly ways, you think I'm not serious. You'll be so surprised. This is a unilateral decision!

Me: You are absolutely right - you have every right and you could unilaterally  make this decision. I understand that. I am clear.

uBPDw: I don't think you are [clear]. You know I could serve you divorce papers this week. I've been seriously thinking about it.

Me: I understand how serious this is for you. I understand that you could serve me papers. Are you talking with a lawyer?

uBPDw: That is none of your business

Me: Fair enough.

uBPDw: The fact that you do not understand how serious I am, that you are not contemplating the same thing is exactly why I should divorce you. It is like you leave me no option but to divorce.

[Note the last line:

a. she nearly 99% of the time has to have the last word/zinger

b. the phrase "you leave me no choice" - I've worked a lot with my T on this. Not only abusive but it really captures so much of BPD. In particular, how they blame you for decisions or things they say/suggest (I have so many examples of these mind bending experiences, she does it to the kids too). [Is there an official term for this?]

My uBPDw has threatened divorce, separation, kicking me out of the house, taking the kids away, etc. since the second year of marriage.

My long time and amazing T said at our second session, "She will not leave. I have seen hundreds of women wanting and able to divorce, and they do. Your wife bluffs." This was eye opening because it made me realize how many bluffs there have been. And as I work on boundaries and the charged emotions that go with them, I've made huge progress on the bluffs. Still hard, still upsetting, deeply stressful, but I'm making progress.

[Notwendy]

I think whether or not they follow through with the threats depends on their capacity to be self sufficient. My BPD mother is very dependent on other people to do even regular tasks for her. She would threaten divorce, but realistically, she would not be able to manage on her own.

Probably the only way she'd have left my dad would have been if she met another man who would be a better caretaker for her. I think that would be hard to do. It takes time to meet someone and get to the stage where that person would have been consistent in meeting her needs. Keeping in mind, that she herself doesn't feel her needs are being sufficiently met - looking at the situation, Dad did this job well.

Relationships that involve abuse ( of all sorts) are confusing because one might think for the abusive partner- if they hate their partner so much that they abuse them, why don't they just leave? And for the spouse who is abused- why don't they leave? But these relationships are curiously tenuous. Each person is somehow getting a need met in them, even if it isn't obvious.

I think it would take time for someone with BPD to settle into the relationship pattern with someone else. Infidelity can happen with BPD, but actually going through a divorce to be with someone else- I have seen it happen on this board, but it seems these BPD spouses are higher functioning. I can't say this is 100%. It is possible that a pwBPD could act on threats of divorce but with my mother, she didn't.

[Joaquin]

TBH, I have mixed feelings about the divorce thing. I think it's possible she could do it when her feelings of emotional deprivation peak, but she's also heavily dependent on me in every aspect of life (to NotWendy's point) so it would be very hard for her. For me, I fear it mainly because of how it would affect our daughter and second for how it would affect my wife, not really for myself bc I do well alone. I know all the stuff in general about why divorced, healthy parents are better for kids than married, unhealthy parents, but when it comes to my daughter I can't help but want the best for her, which means doing everything I can to keep us together as healthy as possible. Maybe that's incorrect or irrational, but I just can't bear the thought of giving my daughter pain or trauma. But if my daughter weren't part of the picture, I know being alone would be the healthiest thing for me and while I care a lot about my wife and feel bonded to her and want the best for her, I can't say I haven't fantasized about how much easier it would be for me to be alone.

LifewithEase, thank you for taking the time to write this out. I feel like sample dialogues are really helpful to me at this stage. The radical acceptance in real time is a great tip. It kind of takes all the air out of the argument. I still struggle with it sometimes when she's heaping the blame on me because I don't accept all of the blame/ownership and that's a limit I'm trying to set, but I do find that when I can just accept something right there (e.g., that she feels I'm uncaring or whatever), it does help me maintain control and de-escalate in the moment.

Joaquin,

So much of this resonates with me.

I've been work very hard on boundaries yet still struggle with the chaos that happens when I try to set limits.

It is hardest on the day-to-day eruptions (e.g. you talk funny, don't use my name more than two times a day, we need to get rid of the dog, you purposely didn't clean my things in the kitchen, etc.).

But I see more positive movement during her "summit" meetings when she goes off. In particular, when she threatens divorce (happens about 5 to 10 times a year, usually during her hardest dysregulation benders).

So what do I do?

A form of radical acceptance in real time:

uBPDw: I'm going to divorce you. You have no say. I could do it tomorrow. You and your silly ways, you think I'm not serious. You'll be so surprised. This is a unilateral decision!

Me: You are absolutely right - you have every right and you could unilaterally  make this decision. I understand that. I am clear.

uBPDw: I don't think you are [clear]. You know I could serve you divorce papers this week. I've been seriously thinking about it.

Me: I understand how serious this is for you. I understand that you could serve me papers. Are you talking with a lawyer?

uBPDw: That is none of your business

Me: Fair enough.

uBPDw: The fact that you do not understand how serious I am, that you are not contemplating the same thing is exactly why I should divorce you. It is like you leave me no option but to divorce.

[Note the last line:

a. she nearly 99% of the time has to have the last word/zinger

b. the phrase "you leave me no choice" - I've worked a lot with my T on this. Not only abusive but it really captures so much of BPD. In particular, how they blame you for decisions or things they say/suggest (I have so many examples of these mind bending experiences, she does it to the kids too). [Is there an official term for this?]

My uBPDw has threatened divorce, separation, kicking me out of the house, taking the kids away, etc. since the second year of marriage.

My long time and amazing T said at our second session, "She will not leave. I have seen hundreds of women wanting and able to divorce, and they do. Your wife bluffs." This was eye opening because it made me realize how many bluffs there have been. And as I work on boundaries and the charged emotions that go with them, I've made huge progress on the bluffs. Still hard, still upsetting, deeply stressful, but I'm making progress.

[Joaquin]

We had a healthy, empathetic talk yest about how to keep things peaceful and avoid conflicts. For the first time my uBPDw suggested that we walk away to calm down when things get too heated, which is something I always wanted to do but felt I couldn't bc she used to perceive that as abandonment. Seems like the progress we've made has made that a safer option for her, so I'm taking it at face value and will use it when she's dysregulating in a way I can't manage.

Back to the extinction burst thing, what's the right way to do that? Is it different than setting (SETting) a limit? I’ve found that when I stay nonreactive and caring during the conflict/while setting the limit, the fallout is much shorter and less damaging. She’s shown some ability to perceive and even appreciate my effort at staying nonreactive even while she’s activated. So I’m trying to focus my energy on keeping myself in a healthy, mindful state so that I can stay above the dysregulation and maintain the calm caretaker vibe when things happen. This seems to be the most effective way to hold onto myself while managing her. So I'm imagining extinction similar to SET, something like "I love you and care about you [maybe insert some validating statement about her feelings], but I can't take all the ownership of this conflict/your feelings the way you want me to and I need to disengage bc this is escalating in a harmful way." Combined with what she said about walking away when things get too negative, I'm hoping this will work. Does that sound like the right direction? Am I compromising myself in some way that I don't see?

I think whether or not they follow through with the threats depends on their capacity to be self sufficient. My BPD mother is very dependent on other people to do even regular tasks for her. She would threaten divorce, but realistically, she would not be able to manage on her own.

Probably the only way she'd have left my dad would have been if she met another man who would be a better caretaker for her. I think that would be hard to do. It takes time to meet someone and get to the stage where that person would have been consistent in meeting her needs. Keeping in mind, that she herself doesn't feel her needs are being sufficiently met - looking at the situation, Dad did this job well.

Relationships that involve abuse ( of all sorts) are confusing because one might think for the abusive partner- if they hate their partner so much that they abuse them, why don't they just leave? And for the spouse who is abused- why don't they leave? But these relationships are curiously tenuous. Each person is somehow getting a need met in them, even if it isn't obvious.

I think it would take time for someone with BPD to settle into the relationship pattern with someone else. Infidelity can happen with BPD, but actually going through a divorce to be with someone else- I have seen it happen on this board, but it seems these BPD spouses are higher functioning. I can't say this is 100%. It is possible that a pwBPD could act on threats of divorce but with my mother, she didn't.

[Notwendy]

I don't think you need to be an unresponsive rock, but to modulate your own emotional reactivity. I did a lot of work with this- counseling, 12 steps. We get emotionally reactive when we take comments personally and also try to defend ourselves. We also don't have to sit there and listen while being verbally abused either.

The first "lesson" was to speak from my own perspective- not using the word "you". Only use "I". This can feel awkward at first but it makes us tune into our own feelings and away from looking at the other person's issues. "You" can also be triggering to them, but this is for us.

Say " I am feeling distressed in this conversation. I'd like to take a break to calm down" then stop talking or  leave the room ( even if you go to the bathroom- say you have to use the bathroom)  rather than "You need to stop talking like this to me and I'm not listening to this". Or JADE or anything else. It's best to be honest but if you say at work "I have a meeting now". "I have to take this call from a client" so you can disengage, then that helps.

What someone with BPD says is more about them than you. Sometimes it's hurtful accusations but if they aren't true, you don't have to defend them. Mentally substitute something like "pink elephant" for the insult. If someone accused you of being an elephant, you'd not be upset, you'd think that's strange- because you know you are not one and being accused of that won't make it true. If you can cognitively process the accusation and know it's not true, then you won't have the emotional reactivity. People with BPD have difficulty with their own feelings, don't add yours.

Sometimes they will start a conflict as it's their way of projecting uncomfortable emotions. They rage  and then feel better. Problem is, you don't, you feel bad when this happens. If you can see this starting, you can decide to not participate in a conflicting discussion. Say " this is difficult for me right now, I'd like to talk later" and then repeat as needed. I think you know the pattern by now. Try to work on stepping out of it when it happens. This might take some time and practice and you might backtrack sometimes but you will soon learn to recognize when you are getting into it.

[Joaquin]

Thank you. All very helpful. Disengaging temporarily seems simple enough. The trickier part for me is getting across emotional limits, things I won't accept, which for me is excessive blame and ownership of her emotions. I've talked about how giving me that excessive ownership to internalize hurts my health enough times that she has some awareness and I shouldn't have to explain too much in the future, so I'm hoping if I express some empathy and validation and take my share of responsibility first, I can then just mention it succinctly ("I feel like this [ownership of X] is more than my share and more than I can handle") and disengage. Does that sound like the right approach?

I don't think you need to be an unresponsive rock, but to modulate your own emotional reactivity. I did a lot of work with this- counseling, 12 steps. We get emotionally reactive when we take comments personally and also try to defend ourselves. We also don't have to sit there and listen while being verbally abused either.

The first "lesson" was to speak from my own perspective- not using the word "you". Only use "I". This can feel awkward at first but it makes us tune into our own feelings and away from looking at the other person's issues. "You" can also be triggering to them, but this is for us.

Say " I am feeling distressed in this conversation. I'd like to take a break to calm down" then stop talking or  leave the room ( even if you go to the bathroom- say you have to use the bathroom)  rather than "You need to stop talking like this to me and I'm not listening to this". Or JADE or anything else. It's best to be honest but if you say at work "I have a meeting now". "I have to take this call from a client" so you can disengage, then that helps.

What someone with BPD says is more about them than you. Sometimes it's hurtful accusations but if they aren't true, you don't have to defend them. Mentally substitute something like "pink elephant" for the insult. If someone accused you of being an elephant, you'd not be upset, you'd think that's strange- because you know you are not one and being accused of that won't make it true. If you can cognitively process the accusation and know it's not true, then you won't have the emotional reactivity. People with BPD have difficulty with their own feelings, don't add yours.

Sometimes they will start a conflict as it's their way of projecting uncomfortable emotions. They rage  and then feel better. Problem is, you don't, you feel bad when this happens. If you can see this starting, you can decide to not participate in a conflicting discussion. Say " this is difficult for me right now, I'd like to talk later" and then repeat as needed. I think you know the pattern by now. Try to work on stepping out of it when it happens. This might take some time and practice and you might backtrack sometimes but you will soon learn to recognize when you are getting into it.

[kells76]

Hi Joaquin,

Thank you. All very helpful. Disengaging temporarily seems simple enough.

Glad that disengaging temporarily sounds do-able. It can be nice to find something do-able when we're coping with a pwBPD.

The trickier part for me is getting across emotional limits, things I won't accept, which for me is excessive blame and ownership of her emotions. I've talked about how giving me that excessive ownership to internalize hurts my health enough times that she has some awareness and I shouldn't have to explain too much in the future, so I'm hoping if I express some empathy and validation and take my share of responsibility first, I can then just mention it succinctly ("I feel like this [ownership of X] is more than my share and more than I can handle") and disengage. Does that sound like the right approach?

Good question. I'll share my perspective.

Sometimes we have a perception of boundaries/limits, that the way to get a limit to work is to clarify it to the other person, or to share our new views on it with the other person, or to find a better explanation of it to the other person, or to remind them of our limit.

I have found that trying to operate at that level with a pwBPD (explaining emotional health topics to them / reminding them of an agreement about what's healthy) rarely goes well.

pwBPD have intense emotional limitations. It sounds so normal to plan out -- "OK, so I have reminded her NOT to blame me or give me ownership of her emotions, so that should help her remember, so she should have some awareness, so we can move forward". I suspect that the emotional limitations connected to her mental illness do not allow her to operate that way, even though you and I could probably mostly operate that way.

I think it may be frustrating to you to hope that you can remind her about what you can handle, and that that will go okay or be effective. Maybe it could, though  I think there could be a more effective path forward.

We can get a better handle on limits/boundaries and what's in our control if we understand that our boundaries require no announcement, explanation, or clarification to others, and require nobody else's participation, memory, or agreement.

I hear you bringing up your emotional limitations in a few threads. It's good that you're seeing that with clear eyes -- you can't emotionally carry it all.

You don't need her to agree with you, remember anything, participate, cooperate, or agree, for you to carry out your own boundary. And it won't require explanation.

It could look like:

"I'm overwhelmed right now; I'm going to take a shower [take a walk, get a drink, go to the store], and I'll be back in 45 minutes."

I also hear that you would like to include empathy and/or validation. So, if those are your values, it could look like:

"This sounds important to you and I want to be at my best to listen to you. I feel overwhelmed right now, so I'm going to take a break and check back in with you by text in an hour."

or

"It means a lot that you would share XYZ with me. I want to give that the thought it deserves, so I'm going to take some alone time to think about it. I'll touch base with you at 5pm tonight."

Notice that none of those approaches require that you explicitly clarify "what you won't accept". They're about you doing your boundary, not discussing your boundary, and I think that's key. Raising the topic of "what you won't accept" can inadvertently frame your boundary as something that's up for discussion... when it's not.

What do you think it'd be like for you to try refraining from clarifying/explaining, and moving towards doing?

[thankful person]

I think Kells makes some great points here and Kells also helped me to understand that boundaries don’t need to be discussed or explained in advance. In my case my wife had many crazy rules like feeling resentful if I had more showers than her (this was during the covid lockdown what else was there to do?) To keep the peace I was trying to do things by her rules but then I slowly started breaking all the rules. I found if I could execute it confidently sometimes she didn’t even question it. It is a lot like dealing with a child. Your child asks for a cookie and you say no. “But whyyyyyy?” They whine and you respond with an explanation “it’s dinner time soon so you don’t want to be too full up to eat”. They repeat, “But whyyyyy?” “Because it’s healthy to eat a balanced diet not just a ton of sugar.” “But whyyyyy?” This could go on for hours if you keep trying to explain and justify to them the many reasons you said no. There is no point in the discussion. I was stunned to somehow realise I’d missed this when I have worked with children for many years. But of course my wife always had far more control over me..

[Joaquin]

kells,
This is a helpful reminder of the difference bw doing and explaining, especially bc my instinct is to do what I did in past (healthy) relationships, which was healthy communication to resolve problems.

My difficulty is this: I get how this works for something like taking a temporary time out. What’s harder to understand is how to enforce a more conceptual limit (like not accepting excessive blame/ownership) in the larger context. I can get myself some time to think, but when I come back my wife will keep pushing that she needs me to accept responsibility for making her feel unloved etc and that I have to change to make sure she feels like her needs are met. How do I enforce that boundary without explaining it?

Hi Joaquin,

Glad that disengaging temporarily sounds do-able. It can be nice to find something do-able when we're coping with a pwBPD.

Good question. I'll share my perspective.

Sometimes we have a perception of boundaries/limits, that the way to get a limit to work is to clarify it to the other person, or to share our new views on it with the other person, or to find a better explanation of it to the other person, or to remind them of our limit.

I have found that trying to operate at that level with a pwBPD (explaining emotional health topics to them / reminding them of an agreement about what's healthy) rarely goes well.

pwBPD have intense emotional limitations. It sounds so normal to plan out -- "OK, so I have reminded her NOT to blame me or give me ownership of her emotions, so that should help her remember, so she should have some awareness, so we can move forward". I suspect that the emotional limitations connected to her mental illness do not allow her to operate that way, even though you and I could probably mostly operate that way.

I think it may be frustrating to you to hope that you can remind her about what you can handle, and that that will go okay or be effective. Maybe it could, though  I think there could be a more effective path forward.

We can get a better handle on limits/boundaries and what's in our control if we understand that our boundaries require no announcement, explanation, or clarification to others, and require nobody else's participation, memory, or agreement.

I hear you bringing up your emotional limitations in a few threads. It's good that you're seeing that with clear eyes -- you can't emotionally carry it all.

You don't need her to agree with you, remember anything, participate, cooperate, or agree, for you to carry out your own boundary. And it won't require explanation.

It could look like:

"I'm overwhelmed right now; I'm going to take a shower [take a walk, get a drink, go to the store], and I'll be back in 45 minutes."

I also hear that you would like to include empathy and/or validation. So, if those are your values, it could look like:

"This sounds important to you and I want to be at my best to listen to you. I feel overwhelmed right now, so I'm going to take a break and check back in with you by text in an hour."

or

"It means a lot that you would share XYZ with me. I want to give that the thought it deserves, so I'm going to take some alone time to think about it. I'll touch base with you at 5pm tonight."

Notice that none of those approaches require that you explicitly clarify "what you won't accept". They're about you doing your boundary, not discussing your boundary, and I think that's key. Raising the topic of "what you won't accept" can inadvertently frame your boundary as something that's up for discussion... when it's not.

What do you think it'd be like for you to try refraining from clarifying/explaining, and moving towards doing?

[Joaquin]

I feel you. I definitely struggle with FOG when it comes to just doing something that I know will be perceived as an abandonment without her “permission.” But how do I enforce something more conceptual (like not accepting excessive blame/ownership) without explanation? She’ll keep pushing for me to take ownership and apologize until I do it no matter how much time I buy. The best I’ve been able to figure out so far is talking about these things when she’s calm and feeling safe, then I can kind of get through if I use the right language.

I think Kells makes some great points here and Kells also helped me to understand that boundaries don’t need to be discussed or explained in advance. In my case my wife had many crazy rules like feeling resentful if I had more showers than her (this was during the covid lockdown what else was there to do?) To keep the peace I was trying to do things by her rules but then I slowly started breaking all the rules. I found if I could execute it confidently sometimes she didn’t even question it. It is a lot like dealing with a child. Your child asks for a cookie and you say no. “But whyyyyyy?” They whine and you respond with an explanation “it’s dinner time soon so you don’t want to be too full up to eat”. They repeat, “But whyyyyy?” “Because it’s healthy to eat a balanced diet not just a ton of sugar.” “But whyyyyy?” This could go on for hours if you keep trying to explain and justify to them the many reasons you said no. There is no point in the discussion. I was stunned to somehow realise I’d missed this when I have worked with children for many years. But of course my wife always had far more control over me..

[thankful person]

I feel you. I definitely struggle with FOG when it comes to just doing something that I know will be perceived as an abandonment without her “permission.” But how do I enforce something more conceptual (like not accepting excessive blame/ownership) without explanation? She’ll keep pushing for me to take ownership and apologize until I do it no matter how much time I buy. The best I’ve been able to figure out so far is talking about these things when she’s calm and feeling safe, then I can kind of get through if I use the right language.

Tbh this is exactly why I’m still struggling. For some reason my wife responded really well in the beginning to all the communication strategies etc, but has split on me since our 3rd child arrived last year, and blames me for her feeling unloved, undesired, unwanted, and unsupported. Some days she seems to feel (a bit) better about me but then I’ll be “selfish and thoughtless” and wake up the baby by “making so much noise” (example) and then the accusation is, “you haven’t even worked on us today!” I’m supposed to be making her feel desired through words not actions because she doesn’t trust me enough to want me to touch her (or something). This is very hard for me. I’m good at written communication like messages but far less at spoken. I used to be very affectionate but now I’ve been trained to keep my hands to myself. And of course she doesn’t want messages either, in fact one of the accusations today was that I’d wasted her time sending messages she’d prefer me to have said in person. But I still haven’t got a clue what she wants me to say and I feel like everything I say is always wrong. Plus it’s hard because a lot of the time it’s hard to feel loving towards someone who is so critical of you. I do believe this is just another trap because, were I to write out a message then say the first line to her then she attacks me for it. For example, “it’ll be nice when the kids are older and we have a bit more time for each other..” “what’s the point in talking about the FUTURE? I want you to talk about NOW!” Obviously now is a hard time when we’re always supervising the children and she sleeps with the baby and I sleep in the spare room. I’m sorry I don’t have more answers. It’s been a tough year.

[Notwendy]

The relationship tools on this board are helpful to the person in the relationship with someone with BPD. With any two people, interactions involve both. We can learn to manage our part of the communication. I think there's a misunderstanding that this is caretaking the other person- but it's actually for us- as these are good relationship skills to have.

For example, both myself and another family member have parents about the same age. Elderly people can be a bit more emotionally labile. Her parents do not have BPD, but are beginning to show a bit of this. She's told me she sees I am good at interacting with them when this happens. I am using the same relationship skills I learned for interacting with my mother- staying less emotionally reactive, SET, not JADEing.

These communication skills work to improve communication, reduce our part in drama. They work, but they do not change the other person. So it is possible to see some improvement because we've changed our part in the relationship- but if someone still has distorted thinking- we can't change that.

I think many posters arrive here invested in their relationships. They don't see leaving as an initial choice, and some don't want that choice at all. Since BPD is on a spectrum- and we don't know how much we are adding to the drama- it makes sense to work on our part in the relationship and see how it goes. Sometimes, there's enough improvement that the relationship works better for them. And possibly also not. We don't know until we try.

I think we all have our bottom line in relationships. I think most people want to feel they tried to do the best with it before considering it's not repairable.

I am grateful for knowing the tools to deal with my BPD mother. It has reduced the conflict between us and has made communication more effective. However, she still has BPD.  She perceives things from her own victim perspective. Victim perspective shifts the responsibility of her own feelings to someone or something else (we don't blame victims)I wish we could change this for her, but we can't.

We aren't only putting the work into ourselves for the other person to benefit. The person doing the work learns from them.

[Joaquin]

Reading this triggered me a bit bc it sounds a lot like the first 2yrs of our relationship before I knew about BPD when she had knocked down all my sense of self and defenses and gained full psychological control over me. My wife’s demands and complaints were a little different than yours, but the double binds and constant high criticism kept me in such intense FOG and 24/7 hyper vigilance tryna please her and internalize all her complaints that is really broke me down. I snapped year 3 and all my hurt started pouring out of me, which she ofc viewed as another persecution. But I at least started to articulate around that time how controlled I felt and how I was only allowed to be or do or feel what she directed. Some messy limits were set, then I learned about BPD year 4 and it all made sense and I gained another level of control. As you can see I’m still working out the boundaries (probably always will), but it’s nowhere near as bad as those first years when I couldn’t breathe. If I got anything positive from that early living nightmare it’s that it broke me down so much that I have no physical capacity to live like that again, so I know it’ll never get that bad again bc I can’t even do it.

Tbh this is exactly why I’m still struggling. For some reason my wife responded really well in the beginning to all the communication strategies etc, but has split on me since our 3rd child arrived last year, and blames me for her feeling unloved, undesired, unwanted, and unsupported. Some days she seems to feel (a bit) better about me but then I’ll be “selfish and thoughtless” and wake up the baby by “making so much noise” (example) and then the accusation is, “you haven’t even worked on us today!” I’m supposed to be making her feel desired through words not actions because she doesn’t trust me enough to want me to touch her (or something). This is very hard for me. I’m good at written communication like messages but far less at spoken. I used to be very affectionate but now I’ve been trained to keep my hands to myself. And of course she doesn’t want messages either, in fact one of the accusations today was that I’d wasted her time sending messages she’d prefer me to have said in person. But I still haven’t got a clue what she wants me to say and I feel like everything I say is always wrong. Plus it’s hard because a lot of the time it’s hard to feel loving towards someone who is so critical of you. I do believe this is just another trap because, were I to write out a message then say the first line to her then she attacks me for it. For example, “it’ll be nice when the kids are older and we have a bit more time for each other..” “what’s the point in talking about the FUTURE? I want you to talk about NOW!” Obviously now is a hard time when we’re always supervising the children and she sleeps with the baby and I sleep in the spare room. I’m sorry I don’t have more answers. It’s been a tough year.

[Joaquin]

These are important, sobering reminders. There’s only so much I can do from my side of the street, and we’ll see how far that gets us and whether it’s enough. Thank you.

These communication skills work to improve communication, reduce our part in drama. They work, but they do not change the other person. So it is possible to see some improvement because we've changed our part in the relationship- but if someone still has distorted thinking- we can't change that.

I think many posters arrive here invested in their relationships. They don't see leaving as an initial choice, and some don't want that choice at all. Since BPD is on a spectrum- and we don't know how much we are adding to the drama- it makes sense to work on our part in the relationship and see how it goes. Sometimes, there's enough improvement that the relationship works better for them. And possibly also not. We don't know until we try.

I think we all have our bottom line in relationships. I think most people want to feel they tried to do the best with it before considering it's not repairable.

I am grateful for knowing the tools to deal with my BPD mother. It has reduced the conflict between us and has made communication more effective. However, she still has BPD.  She perceives things from her own victim perspective. Victim perspective shifts the responsibility of her own feelings to someone or something else (we don't blame victims)I wish we could change this for her, but we can't.

We aren't only putting the work into ourselves for the other person to benefit. The person doing the work learns from them.

[stolencrumbs]

I feel you. I definitely struggle with FOG when it comes to just doing something that I know will be perceived as an abandonment without her “permission.” But how do I enforce something more conceptual (like not accepting excessive blame/ownership) without explanation? She’ll keep pushing for me to take ownership and apologize until I do it no matter how much time I buy. The best I’ve been able to figure out so far is talking about these things when she’s calm and feeling safe, then I can kind of get through if I use the right language.

Hi Joaquin,
I've been following your story but haven't chimed in. This is really just reinforcing what Kells says above, but it might be helpful to think more about what it looks like to "enforce" that boundary. Your boundary is that you won't take ownership of her feelings. That's a good boundary to have because it is entirely about you and what you can do. Not to be flippant about it, but the way to enforce that particular boundary is to just not take ownership of her feelings. That doesn't require an explanation or her cooperation. In what you say above, there seems to still be a bit of thinking that enforcing the boundary means getting her to stop doing something (pushing her feeling onto you). But what she does is not something you can control, and if the goal is to get her to change, that likely isn't going to go well. (It's a bit paradoxical since obviously, we all want the other person to change in some way. But that change has to be a side-effect of us controlling things we can control and not us trying to control what the other person does.) You can control whether or how long you stick around to listen to her pushing her feelings onto you. You can control whether you apologize. But that's different from enforcing a boundary to control her behavior. As others have said, boundaries are about you and they have to be something you can actually control without the consent or cooperation of somebody else.

I do think your last statement here is on the right track. The time to try to talk about any of this stuff is not when she is dysregulated. If there is any hope of having a conversation about it, it's going to be when she feels safer, and as you know, it's still a tricky conversation to have even then.

[Joaquin]

This is helpful. Thank you. I think I have to keep reinforcing the permission I give myself to do what I need without needing her to react to it well bc as you say that’s out of my control, at least partly. I’ll do what I can, use the tools I have to get through as much as possible, then hold the line at my boundary.

Hi Joaquin,
I've been following your story but haven't chimed in. This is really just reinforcing what Kells says above, but it might be helpful to think more about what it looks like to "enforce" that boundary. Your boundary is that you won't take ownership of her feelings. That's a good boundary to have because it is entirely about you and what you can do. Not to be flippant about it, but the way to enforce that particular boundary is to just not take ownership of her feelings. That doesn't require an explanation or her cooperation. In what you say above, there seems to still be a bit of thinking that enforcing the boundary means getting her to stop doing something (pushing her feeling onto you). But what she does is not something you can control, and if the goal is to get her to change, that likely isn't going to go well. (It's a bit paradoxical since obviously, we all want the other person to change in some way. But that change has to be a side-effect of us controlling things we can control and not us trying to control what the other person does.) You can control whether or how long you stick around to listen to her pushing her feelings onto you. You can control whether you apologize. But that's different from enforcing a boundary to control her behavior. As others have said, boundaries are about you and they have to be something you can actually control without the consent or cooperation of somebody else.

I do think your last statement here is on the right track. The time to try to talk about any of this stuff is not when she is dysregulated. If there is any hope of having a conversation about it, it's going to be when she feels safer, and as you know, it's still a tricky conversation to have even then.