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Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse... Have you considered that being critical, judgmental, or invalidating toward the other parent, no matter what she or he just did will only make matters worse? Someone has to be do something. This means finding the motivation to stop making things worse, learning how to interrupt your own negative responses, body language, facial expressions, voice tone, and learning how to inhibit your urges to do things that you later realize are contributing to the tensions.
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Author Topic: Need Support Helping Kids with uBPDw Extremely Dysregulation  (Read 854 times)
LifewithEase
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« on: June 05, 2023, 10:16:06 AM »

Hi All,

As I predicted, my uBPDw dysregulated extremely hard this morning.  She involved the kids. She was loud, angry, unfair, untruthful, off the rails.

She made me look horrible in front of the kids. My kids are unusually angry at me and that scares me.

I need tactical help on what to say to my kids when they get home from school? I really need this groups support.

What Happened: Made me Look Like a Monster

It is uBPDw 50th birthday. And as predicted, she goes on particularly hard benders on most, if not all, holidays and special occasions. Even the kids know the pattern.

uBPDw dysregulated extremely hard this morning.  She involved the kids. She was loud, angry, unfair, untruthful, off the rails.

She made me look horrible in front of the kids. My kids are unusually angry at me and that scares me.

I'm disappointed in myself because in order to prepare for her dysregulation (sad, but I do this to help the kids and myself navigate the day),  I leaned on "walking on eggs shells" struggling to figure out the best path.  

- I woke up cautiously giving her space (it is a consistent morning request)  

- I gave her space to start her morning and to be lead on the kids, which is important to her

- Kids were acting like typical teens, she started barking at them; I knew she was amping up, so I gave her more space

- She gave me the silent treatment with dirty looks in the kitchen; snapped at me twice trying to call out things I was doing wrong

- Amping up even more. I would have left the room but
a. the kids need a ton of prep today (field trips; after school activities) and
b. I wanted to be helpful and present because it was her birthday

- She continued to bark & yell at the kids to get up and going; she coldly turned down my sweet daughter for trying to make her a birthday breakfast, with a snide remark "if your Dad had helped you get planned and up earlier I might have been able to enjoy your breakfast"

Then She Blew Up:

- With everyone in the kitchen, she blew her lid, went off on me, screaming loudly like never before:
   - "You purposely avoided saying Happy Birthday"
   - "You are so unkind, only you would neglect someone's 50th birthday"
   - "You walked by me 5 times and said nothing, no acknowledgement"
   - "This just shows everyone how bad you treat me"

- My S ran to room to burry himself in bed. My D went to her room, slamming the door
   - I tried to talk to them but they would not
   - My S will not talk to me, only yelling at me to leave him alone
   - My D is angry at me and used harsh words when my uBPDw is in the room; but when wife left to drive my son, D changed tone/body language and reengaged, cautiously

- Today my wife has been building up the false narrative, that I don't care, I'm unloving, etc.
   - She sent me a text saying her ex-husband was in touch "I got a long, lovely email from Sam wishing me a happy 50th. It's good to know that there are still so many caring and loving people in my life who have my best interest at heart."

Birthday Context: World of Double Binds

- uBPDw has been clear for months that for her 50th
   - "doesn't want me to have anything to do with her birthday"
   - "if there is one person I don't want celebrating my birthday day it is you"

- Multiple times she has said very clearly that doesn't want to make a big deal about it

- She has been clear: she wants the day solo driving to the beach

- Special meals?: "I don't want you to plan anything"

- When the kids separately were trying to gingerly figure out if she wanted a special dinner on her birthday weekend, she declined saying that their activity schedule was too busy;

- But then she wanted me involved last minute, this weekend when she tried to make night of dinner plans

- Even last night's bedtime, when I was coaching my son on the discord with his mother and how this might be a precursor to Monday's "possible birthday stress," my son reminded me that "Mom really doesn't want us to make a big deal"

Other context item:

- Two weeks ago, for our anniversary, she went off on me hard and rejected my low profile gift (her favorite gourmet chocolate). She rejected celebrating and the kids didn't even know.

Today + Advice Needed

I've never seen the kids so upset. She made me look horrible in front of them. They truly believe her. My kids are very angry and blaming me.

Ironically, I am spending the bulk of the day helping my kids finish the birthday planning they neglected or are not able to do.  

But seriously, what do I say to my kids when they get home from school?

I need reminders, perspective and help. Thanks.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2023, 10:25:35 AM by LifewithEase » Logged
zondolit
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« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2023, 11:30:25 AM »

It is great that you are attuned to your children and want a good relationship with them.

My therapist once told me of my then-husband, "He doesn't know what he wants." Her point was that I kept waiting for him to figure out what he wanted and that was not going to happen. I needed to make my decisions and moves just based on me (and the children's needs).

Your wife doesn't know what she wants. Sometimes I think of it as a learning disability: she cannot help it. She is simply unable to know what she wants, and she is conflicted.

Therefore, there is no way to make her happy. So stop trying to make her happy.

Stop trying to gauge what is right and what is wrong based on her reactions. Use your own moral compass, emotions, and reasoning instead.

For those of us in a BPD relationship, these skills (relying on our own judgement, listening to our heart) tend to wither over time, so you have to find ways to return to them, or develop them if they were never yours to begin with. It can seem impossible at first, but it can be done and it is actually joyful work.

My guess is your children have a sense of this dynamic and are losing respect for you because of it.

Are you willing to drop the "my wife made me look horrible" and just say "I looked horrible in front of the kids"?
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Joaquin
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« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2023, 11:36:20 AM »

Hello my friend,

This sounds like a nightmare day. I'm sorry. My daughter is still a toddler so I don't want to give advice on what to tell the kids, but I will say that your experience validates future fears I have about how messy this can all get when the kids are old enough to be involved. I know you said your kids believe their mom completely, but it also sounds like they have some awareness of her instability. They must see what a great, active father you are and how hard you try to keep peace at home, no? Is this just compartmentalized for them? Out of curiosity, how did you respond when she was throwing all this at you in front of the kids? Were you able to stay nonreactive or did she suck you in?

What you said about still walking on eggshells to keep peace sometimes (and feeling bad about it) resonates with me. We know limits are important but picking battles is also important. I'm no expert but it seems to me that too much constant emphasis on limits is too triggering for pwBPD's intense abandonment fears. Again, no expert and relatively new at this, but I find that for me, filling up my validation reservoir here on this site and also from re-reading the BPD books (like SWOE) helps me feel like I can accommodate my uBPDw more from a place of control and ownership over myself, like it's on my terms because I'm focused and give myself internal permission to SET a limit if necessary, which in turn makes me feel less of a need to actually set the limit outwardly. But then again, this also makes me err on the side of avoiding conflict, so I do feel a slight net loss in terms of prioritizing myself.

It seems like maybe your wife was creating a self-fulfilled prophecy to confirm her abandonment fears by telling you not to do anything for her birthday and then saying "See! You don't care about me bc you didn't do anything for my birthday!" You're damned if you do and damned if you don't. You tried both and were double damned. It makes no sense, but I guess that's how BPD works. This is her dysfunction based on her intense abandonment fears on steroids. You've had enough years together for her to pin her abandonment fears on your character traits or behavior, but you were never the cause. Those live deep inside her and will find a way to blame you for them no matter what because she is emotionally incapable of managing those difficult feelings herself the way you and I do.

This may be a place to SET a limit because it's impossible for you to appease her with your actions and you shouldn't sacrifice yourself trying; it won't work and you'll get burned out and used up in the process (we've all been there).

Again, no expert, but maybe wait until things are calm and say something like "I know you feel I don't care about you and didn't express enough love or care for your birthday. I know that hurts. The truth is I do care very much, and I tried very hard to thread the needle based on what you told me you wanted. [She'll argue here about why you failed and don't really care and how anyone else would've known exactly how to make her feel loved including her ex. Try not to engage this. I would probably fail here but you're skilled at radical acceptance or not taking bait]." Then maybe assert your limits whatever they are, maybe not maligning you in front of the kids, not throwing her ex in your face.

I'm curious to see the advice of those with experience with older kids. But remember, none of this is about what you do or don't do. It's clear you're a person who tries hard for his family and an extremely caring father and husband. Would you not describe yourself as a giver? This is coming from difficult emotions that live deep within her with which she literally has no functional or healthy way to cope. No matter how much we give, it will never be enough because we can't cure what's broken inside someone else. It's prob not a coincidence that they find extremely giving partners like us bc their needs are so impossibly large that their survival depends on it.
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Notwendy
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« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2023, 12:26:09 PM »

I think I can share a perspective from being a teen with a BPD mother, and also having raised teens myself- they are young adults now.

Parents with PD's see their children as extensions of themselves, not as separate individuals. Young children are more compliant, less autonomous, and so don't present as much of a conflict with this unhealthy viewpoint of their parent although children develop autonomy all the time, from being able to dress themselves, etc, to being fully independent adults.  

For a teen- their main developmental task is to become autonomous young adults and separate from the parent. They may not know who they are, but they know they are not their parent- so they push against that parent. In addition, they are dealing with hormone swings and emotions of their own. Now there's a 50 year old mother with BPD who also has poor emotional regulation, mood swings, and is probably at some point in menopause. This is quite the perfect storm but besides moving out for 10 years  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) what can you do?

The teen age years are challenging enough ( even if they are good kids) but when there's an emotionally disordered parent, it is more difficult for them to differentiate, and also there's a conflict between what they see is not normal and yet, it's somehow tolerated in their family. By my teens it seemed we had two sets of rules, one for BPD mother but if we acted like that, this would not be allowed. In addition, we were supposed to behave for her and listen to her, yet, somehow, we were also "older" than her. I was parentified - acting as the other adult in the home, yet also expected to be compliant with this parent who was acting like a child.

By the teen years, the BPD parent may be acting like they do with their spouse, but with their soon to be grown children. This is completely inappropriate. We were enlisted as her emotional caretaker. She did talk about our father to us, their relationship, and yes, it was TMI and also inappropriate. Triangulation - Karpman triangle- we and Dad were either her persecutor or rescuer, depending on who she was angry at at the time.

I don't think I got angry at my father much. I perceived him as her victim, but he enabled her and in retrospect, became her co- abuser by enabling her, walking on eggshells and expecting us to do that too. He was the emotionally stable parent. I could not risk his disapproval.

How did Dad set the record straight if BPD mother said things about him? By his actions. It was obvious that he was the most stable parent.  BPD mother's behaviors were obviously disordered. We may have initially believed her but then, what we saw was something different. Be the emotionally stable parent. Be the parent who will love them even if they are mad at you. For my parents, love was conditional on my complying and not upsetting BPD mother. If your kids are angry, they have their own feelings. Do they feel safe enough with you to express their anger? By your actions, they will see that you will love them no matter if they are angry at you or not.

Now for the other side of parenting. My teens did get mad at me sometimes. That was hard for me to deal with due to being so afraid of anger and fear they'd feel like I did about my own mother. They didn't get angry often, and when they did, it was over restrictions like not being allowed to go out on a school night and things like that. And the emotions were over the top, due to hormones, so - going to their room, acting angry at me. They have to have respectful boundaries with that and they did, but what was different I think is that they felt safe enough to be angry at me sometimes. Yes, that bothered me and there were times I was in my room crying but - it's not their job to worry about walking on eggshells around me, and a good thing they didn't have to.

They need an emotionally stable parent, conditional and unwavering love, firm but age appropriate boundaries, and to feel emotionally safe with you.  Be that parent. I also recommend counseling for them to help them deal with the situation at home.






« Last Edit: June 05, 2023, 12:34:29 PM by Notwendy » Logged
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« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2023, 12:50:56 PM »

This isn't my thread but I just wanted to say I really value what you shared here. My daughter is still a toddler but I fear all this for the future. Your experience is reassuring me that all I have to do is remain the best parent I can be. My uBPDw is higher functioning and has high standards for herself as a mother, so I'm hopeful that she'll be better than most parents with BPD I've heard about. My fear is that while I fully agree with you 100% that parenting is a one-way relationship (it's our job to give unconditional love, make them feel safe, and encourage and support their independence with no expectations for ourselves -- this is how my parents were/are for me and it gave me great emotional health and security), my uBPDw has some slightly different ideas about responsibilities children have to be respectful, etc. (these are partly cultural ideas), and I'm afraid that could possibly be stretched to put too much emotional responsibility on them. If that happens, it's my job to counter it and reassure them that the responsibility is ours, not theirs.

I think I can share a perspective from being a teen with a BPD mother, and also having raised teens myself- they are young adults now.

Parents with PD's see their children as extensions of themselves, not as separate individuals. Young children are more compliant, less autonomous, and so don't present as much of a conflict with this unhealthy viewpoint of their parent although children develop autonomy all the time, from being able to dress themselves, etc, to being fully independent adults.  

For a teen- their main developmental task is to become autonomous young adults and separate from the parent. They may not know who they are, but they know they are not their parent- so they push against that parent. In addition, they are dealing with hormone swings and emotions of their own. Now there's a 50 year old mother with BPD who also has poor emotional regulation, mood swings, and is probably at some point in menopause. This is quite the perfect storm but besides moving out for 10 years  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) what can you do?

The teen age years are challenging enough ( even if they are good kids) but when there's an emotionally disordered parent, it is more difficult for them to differentiate, and also there's a conflict between what they see is not normal and yet, it's somehow tolerated in their family. By my teens it seemed we had two sets of rules, one for BPD mother but if we acted like that, this would not be allowed. In addition, we were supposed to behave for her and listen to her, yet, somehow, we were also "older" than her. I was parentified - acting as the other adult in the home, yet also expected to be compliant with this parent who was acting like a child.

By the teen years, the BPD parent may be acting like they do with their spouse, but with their soon to be grown children. This is completely inappropriate. We were enlisted as her emotional caretaker. She did talk about our father to us, their relationship, and yes, it was TMI and also inappropriate. Triangulation - Karpman triangle- we and Dad were either her persecutor or rescuer, depending on who she was angry at at the time.

I don't think I got angry at my father much. I perceived him as her victim, but he enabled her and in retrospect, became her co- abuser by enabling her, walking on eggshells and expecting us to do that too. He was the emotionally stable parent. I could not risk his disapproval.

How did Dad set the record straight if BPD mother said things about him? By his actions. It was obvious that he was the most stable parent.  BPD mother's behaviors were obviously disordered. We may have initially believed her but then, what we saw was something different. Be the emotionally stable parent. Be the parent who will love them even if they are mad at you. For my parents, love was conditional on my complying and not upsetting BPD mother. If your kids are angry, they have their own feelings. Do they feel safe enough with you to express their anger? By your actions, they will see that you will love them no matter if they are angry at you or not.

Now for the other side of parenting. My teens did get mad at me sometimes. That was hard for me to deal with due to being so afraid of anger and fear they'd feel like I did about my own mother. They didn't get angry often, and when they did, it was over restrictions like not being allowed to go out on a school night and things like that. And the emotions were over the top, due to hormones, so - going to their room, acting angry at me. They have to have respectful boundaries with that and they did, but what was different I think is that they felt safe enough to be angry at me sometimes. Yes, that bothered me and there were times I was in my room crying but - it's not their job to worry about walking on eggshells around me, and a good thing they didn't have to.

They need an emotionally stable parent, conditional and unwavering love, firm but age appropriate boundaries, and to feel emotionally safe with you.  Be that parent. I also recommend counseling for them to help them deal with the situation at home.







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LifewithEase
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« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2023, 12:58:18 PM »

Zondolit

Great reply. Yes, I am an amazing father.

You highlight something important - use our own compass. I do that as much as possible yet it is hard to see the children influenced. They form their perspective from innate maternal trust; hidden fear of their mother's anger and disapproval; and plainly simply being a kid. That is a lot for me to overcome.

The rub for partners of BPD is this:

- If you do not react, create healthy boundaries, stay calm then you're seen as the silent victim or admitting fault. The kids lose respect for not pushing back, defending yourself. They hear the fault and blame. Not the quiet confidence and internal compass.

- If you do react, you play into the pwBPD power dynamic and, as you say and we all know, you just can't win. But the kids see you standing up for yourself at the cost of playing the low game and making things worse?

Lastly, this morning did I look horrible in front of the kids? In their reality I did. Why?

I was calm. I did not react. I actually think my wife saw that I was so dumbfounded and processing my surprise with her over the top scary anger, that, like a bully, she clicked seeing an opportunity to really leverage it in front of the kids.

Even in her repair with the kids, is seemed like she was using it as a vehicle to establish the high road, the victim that over comes, the protector from the bad behavior father.

Also, I'm sure the kids are thinking "why would Mom get so angry, so loud, so aggressive if it wasn't true." Not sure they can even imagine that it was made up? I mean, let's be honest, it is hard enough for us partners of BPD to process and filter the reality in these dysregulated moments, I can't imagine a kid would be able to.




Stop trying to gauge what is right and what is wrong based on her reactions. Use your own moral compass, emotions, and reasoning instead.

For those of us in a BPD relationship, these skills (relying on our own judgement, listening to our heart) tend to wither over time, so you have to find ways to return to them

My guess is your children have a sense of this dynamic and are losing respect for you because of it.

Are you willing to drop the "my wife made me look horrible" and just say "I looked horrible in front of the kids"?
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LifewithEase
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« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2023, 01:13:58 PM »

Joaquin,

A few quick replies.

I was solid in front of the kids but she was so full of vitriol that I'm sure they were just afraid.

And as I mentioned in another reply, I'm sure the kids were pulled in... Mom is so so mad, he must have done something wrong. I'm sure they saw my shock and fear and a try at calming things down (could have looked to them like guilt?).

A friend also shared a perspective - remember, they have a habit of throwing me under the bus with their mother. The tension started with they wouldn't listen to her barking to get up and going for the day. She was already escalating with them. This could have been a safe escape hatch. "Kids tend to lash out at the parent they are most emotionally trusting."

Was I sucked in? No, not in the moment but look at me afterwards. Totally sucked in - I'm ruminating and spending my day on the fall out. I'm not compartmentalizing. Not sure how to do that anymore.

Lastly, the biggest framework I live in with my wife is false narrative, self-fulfilled prophecy, and double binds.

There are so many examples, trying to pull one out to share floods me. I used to put them in my journal but that was exhausting.

Out of curiosity, how did you respond when she was throwing all this at you in front of the kids? Were you able to stay nonreactive or did she suck you in?

It seems like maybe your wife was creating a self-fulfilled prophecy to confirm her abandonment fears by telling you not to do anything for her birthday and then saying "See! You don't care about me bc you didn't do anything for my birthday!" You're damned if you do and damned if you don't. You tried both and were double damned.


This may be a place to SET a limit because it's impossible for you to appease her with your actions and you shouldn't sacrifice yourself trying; it won't work and you'll get burned out and used up in the process (we've all been there).


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LifewithEase
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« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2023, 01:16:26 PM »


Always the wonderful NotWendy to quickly remind us of priorities and guide us. Thank you.

I love how you give guidance, examples, context, empathy but still keep the focus:

"They need an emotionally stable parent, conditional and unwavering love, firm but age appropriate boundaries, and to feel emotionally safe with you.  Be that parent."

I think I can share a perspective from being a teen with a BPD mother, and also having raised teens myself- they are young adults now.

Parents with PD's see their children as extensions of themselves, not as separate individuals. Young children are more compliant, less autonomous, and so don't present as much of a conflict with this unhealthy viewpoint of their parent although children develop autonomy all the time, from being able to dress themselves, etc, to being fully independent adults.  

For a teen- their main developmental task is to become autonomous young adults and separate from the parent. They may not know who they are, but they know they are not their parent- so they push against that parent. In addition, they are dealing with hormone swings and emotions of their own. Now there's a 50 year old mother with BPD who also has poor emotional regulation, mood swings, and is probably at some point in menopause. This is quite the perfect storm but besides moving out for 10 years  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) what can you do?

The teen age years are challenging enough ( even if they are good kids) but when there's an emotionally disordered parent, it is more difficult for them to differentiate, and also there's a conflict between what they see is not normal and yet, it's somehow tolerated in their family. By my teens it seemed we had two sets of rules, one for BPD mother but if we acted like that, this would not be allowed. In addition, we were supposed to behave for her and listen to her, yet, somehow, we were also "older" than her. I was parentified - acting as the other adult in the home, yet also expected to be compliant with this parent who was acting like a child.

By the teen years, the BPD parent may be acting like they do with their spouse, but with their soon to be grown children. This is completely inappropriate. We were enlisted as her emotional caretaker. She did talk about our father to us, their relationship, and yes, it was TMI and also inappropriate. Triangulation - Karpman triangle- we and Dad were either her persecutor or rescuer, depending on who she was angry at at the time.

I don't think I got angry at my father much. I perceived him as her victim, but he enabled her and in retrospect, became her co- abuser by enabling her, walking on eggshells and expecting us to do that too. He was the emotionally stable parent. I could not risk his disapproval.

How did Dad set the record straight if BPD mother said things about him? By his actions. It was obvious that he was the most stable parent.  BPD mother's behaviors were obviously disordered. We may have initially believed her but then, what we saw was something different. Be the emotionally stable parent. Be the parent who will love them even if they are mad at you. For my parents, love was conditional on my complying and not upsetting BPD mother. If your kids are angry, they have their own feelings. Do they feel safe enough with you to express their anger? By your actions, they will see that you will love them no matter if they are angry at you or not.

Now for the other side of parenting. My teens did get mad at me sometimes. That was hard for me to deal with due to being so afraid of anger and fear they'd feel like I did about my own mother. They didn't get angry often, and when they did, it was over restrictions like not being allowed to go out on a school night and things like that. And the emotions were over the top, due to hormones, so - going to their room, acting angry at me. They have to have respectful boundaries with that and they did, but what was different I think is that they felt safe enough to be angry at me sometimes. Yes, that bothered me and there were times I was in my room crying but - it's not their job to worry about walking on eggshells around me, and a good thing they didn't have to.

They need an emotionally stable parent, conditional and unwavering love, firm but age appropriate boundaries, and to feel emotionally safe with you.  Be that parent. I also recommend counseling for them to help them deal with the situation at home.







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« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2023, 01:42:05 PM »

Thanks. I learn a lot from everyone here on this board too- it's helped me to understand from my father's perspective, as an adult now.
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« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2023, 01:50:21 PM »

I was raised by a mother with BPD and a father who was unsuccesful in getting my mother to go to a mental health provider for help with her constant mood swings.Children need to have some safe places in which there will not be any possiblity of any contact with a highly dysregulated mother with BPD. What opportunities can you create to do outside the home with your children in which their mother will not be present? Are there close family members and friends nearby who you and your children can visit? Therapy can be very helpful, and usually teens can sign for themselves, or only one parent needs to sign. There are some very good therapy programs in some schools in which all children are eligible to participate in. Do not be afraid to ask other adults for help as many adults love and care about children, and will do what they can to help. I know that many adults made a big difference in my life when I was a child, showing me that how I was treated by my mother was not right, and letting me know that I was a worthy and capable person. Do document your wife's behaviors so you have legal evidence that she is an unfit mother in case you need the evidence in the future.
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« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2023, 03:58:19 PM »

Lastly, this morning did I look horrible in front of the kids? In their reality I did. Why?

It's hard for us as adults to be around BPD lability. Nothing makes sense. You can't please them. They get angry no matter what you do and the stress can reach catastrophic levels. Our nervous systems hit tilt. For kids, they feel it tenfold. Take what you feel and multiply it by a thousand.

This parent is biologically wired into their brain as part of their survival.

But she's not safe.

But she's essential.

But she's scary.

You're the other parent and you're underwater, of no real help to them.

Have you read the Borderline Mother by Christine Lawson? In it she describes the type of partners. For me, I had to switch the genders since I was the wife to a BPD husband. That may help you see the more specific ways in which you capitulate in the relationship, giving you some idea of how the kids see you and where your parenting may fall short.

It's hard to look at this stuff. It takes a lot of strength to not be emotionally injured. I think our kids get mad at us because no one in charge is keeping them emotionally safe.

Your go-to is appeasement and logic and trying to keep things from blowing and yet she blows up anyway.

The kids nerves are shot. They want someone to fix this because they don't have the resources or standing in the family to do it. They want to be kids and do kid things.

Excerpt
I was calm. I did not react. I actually think my wife saw that I was so dumbfounded and processing my surprise with her over the top scary anger, that, like a bully, she clicked seeing an opportunity to really leverage it in front of the kids.

Sometimes a reaction is warranted. If a bully was yelling at your kids out in public, what would you do?

Excerpt
it is hard enough for us partners of BPD to process and filter the reality in these dysregulated moments, I can't imagine a kid would be able to.

Bingo.

My kid is now 21. I left his dad when he was 9 turning 10. He said to me once, "I wish you protected me sooner."

I failed at protecting him in the marriage so have no real wisdom to offer there. I do wish I stood up for him more often, at strategic times. There were times it was just insane when I look back on it, and I thought I was managing the situation. In retrospect I was appeasing the bully which was different than protecting my kid. 
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« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2023, 05:03:48 PM »

I'm glad for you that you were able to stay nonreactive and hope you can take some comfort and pride in that, but I also feel your pain in how that makes her just walk on you more.

Really good point about how kids lash out at the safer parent. Also, kids sometimes run to their mother's aid instinctively. My parents had a terrible marriage when I was a kid and I instinctively felt protective over my mother and blamed my father. Now that I'm grown, I realize she was at least as much to blame as he was. In fact, my brother and I usually see him as the victim now. If nothing else, know that your kids will eventually (maybe when they're adults) be able to see how you were the bigger person all along and love and appreciate you for that.

Maybe you can leverage what NotWendy is saying about being the parent your children need to give you the strength to set stronger limits with your wife. It seems clear enough that you are a stellar husband and father and giving A LOT. On top of that, you stay calm in the face of your wife's hurtful behavior. If those facts aren't enough to make you deserve to value yourself and set your limits, then I'm afraid none of us deserve it. It sounds like things may stay too hot for a while longer, but when they're calmer how do you feel about approaching her from a place of cool confidence and communicate where things are exceeding what you can handle? In one of the books I read that when setting limits, it works better if you avoid describing things as what you deserve or your "rights" and instead talk in terms of limits to preserve your deteriorating health. That's much harder to argue with.

Joaquin,

A few quick replies.

I was solid in front of the kids but she was so full of vitriol that I'm sure they were just afraid.

And as I mentioned in another reply, I'm sure the kids were pulled in... Mom is so so mad, he must have done something wrong. I'm sure they saw my shock and fear and a try at calming things down (could have looked to them like guilt?).

A friend also shared a perspective - remember, they have a habit of throwing me under the bus with their mother. The tension started with they wouldn't listen to her barking to get up and going for the day. She was already escalating with them. This could have been a safe escape hatch. "Kids tend to lash out at the parent they are most emotionally trusting."

Was I sucked in? No, not in the moment but look at me afterwards. Totally sucked in - I'm ruminating and spending my day on the fall out. I'm not compartmentalizing. Not sure how to do that anymore.

Lastly, the biggest framework I live in with my wife is false narrative, self-fulfilled prophecy, and double binds.

There are so many examples, trying to pull one out to share floods me. I used to put them in my journal but that was exhausting.

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« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2023, 05:10:39 PM »

Thank you all for sharing your experiences with kids. I'm sure it's really hard to admit that you wish you did more for your kids, but at least know that it's helping those of us who haven't gotten there yet. I tend to err on the side of giving in (as I'm sure most of us here do), but your experience is motivating me to build more inner drive to stand up and be push back if necessary for my daughter when she's older.

It's hard for us as adults to be around BPD lability. Nothing makes sense. You can't please them. They get angry no matter what you do and the stress can reach catastrophic levels. Our nervous systems hit tilt. For kids, they feel it tenfold. Take what you feel and multiply it by a thousand.

This parent is biologically wired into their brain as part of their survival.

But she's not safe.

But she's essential.

But she's scary.

You're the other parent and you're underwater, of no real help to them.

Have you read the Borderline Mother by Christine Lawson? In it she describes the type of partners. For me, I had to switch the genders since I was the wife to a BPD husband. That may help you see the more specific ways in which you capitulate in the relationship, giving you some idea of how the kids see you and where your parenting may fall short.

It's hard to look at this stuff. It takes a lot of strength to not be emotionally injured. I think our kids get mad at us because no one in charge is keeping them emotionally safe.

Your go-to is appeasement and logic and trying to keep things from blowing and yet she blows up anyway.

The kids nerves are shot. They want someone to fix this because they don't have the resources or standing in the family to do it. They want to be kids and do kid things.

Sometimes a reaction is warranted. If a bully was yelling at your kids out in public, what would you do?

Bingo.

My kid is now 21. I left his dad when he was 9 turning 10. He said to me once, "I wish you protected me sooner."

I failed at protecting him in the marriage so have no real wisdom to offer there. I do wish I stood up for him more often, at strategic times. There were times it was just insane when I look back on it, and I thought I was managing the situation. In retrospect I was appeasing the bully which was different than protecting my kid. 

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« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2023, 05:15:33 PM »

As you noted with your daughter, once her mother was away, she mostly reverted to normal.  Whether they've been trained not to oppose their mother when she's ranting or some other aspect of the home environment, it's clear you are a good influence otherwise.

The children would be better able to handle the ups and down of home life if they could have counseling sessions.  Would mother oppose that or, almost worse, seek to commandeer such maters?

I recall a passage in Richard Warshak's Divorce Poison where he described a 5 year old girl whispering to her grandmother, "Whatever I say, I mean the opposite", and then pulling away shouting, "I hate you!"  It was all to avoid the pressure and/or gain the approval of the girl's parent and the girl trusted grandma to still love her despite it all.

Another risk to the boys is that by bending now to their mother's perceptions and demands, their own worldview, perceptions, inner sense of right and wrong, true and false, is suppressed.  Think of Stockholm Syndrome, they have come to side with the pressuring person.

They're like leaves blown in the wind and their mother, pardon the pun, blows the most wind.  {Without you and your support in these early years} It will be hard for them in later years to objectively ponder all aspects of an issue, formulate their own judgments and stick to them without acceding to others' pressures and manipulations.
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« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2023, 01:20:12 PM »

Thanks for so many people checking in. It really makes a difference.

An Update:

We're on the back end of her terrible "BPD bender."

She seems to have forgotten some of the more troubling actions. Today she softened even showing me her wonderful side. But that in itself is a circular trigger, sadly:

- She: softens, is sweet and expects reciprocation

- Me: After years of boundary building, understanding of BPD, being completely exhausted from the last "BPD bender," and with weary & wary that she's setting me up (e.g. Lucy in the Peanuts)... I don't reciprocate.

[I'm pleasant and engage positively, I have no energy left or time to take the low road (I'll admit though these experience do add up in the angry, resentment and exhausted bank accounts)].

- She: takes offense or uses my lack of reciprocation as proof I don't love her, I'm unkind, unwilling to improve things, etc.

- She dysregulates

- Repeat, rinse, repeat, rinse

The next couple of months will not be easy for her with school end of year; crush of summer activities; my late Mother's Memorial, etc.

I suspect that she is moving from detachment to discard. Either, way I worry for her. This week was the first time I had a mental health 800# on hand.

For all to know, there is a lot of Therapy.

- I have an amazing T, easy to say but after years of T she sits on the top. Not sure what I'd do withour her. She loves that I come to this board and attend a few NAMI zooms, share with close friends so the T sessions are the concentrated hard work, not just necessary venting, learning about BPD, etc.

- My uBPDw and I have gone to CT, four significant eras in ~12 years, all ending in uBPDw bailing when it came time for her own work. More recently, she bailed (as expected and confirmed beforehand from post discussions on these boards) requiring I sign a prenuptial and financial agreement before she goes back to CT. [Those who follow me, I haven't had the energy to bring up all the dynamics, one of which is financial].

- Our last CT was also amazing, considered one of the best in our region, if not the nation. She was able to pick up on the BPD from my language, my wife's behavior and words. Remember, my uBPDw is very high functioning. The CT actually used DBT in our sessions, of course, without mentioning it. Sidenote: the best part of CT was the T was the first person to call out (in an amazingly professional and productive way) my uBPDw on her behavior. It really helped.

- My S goes to a strong T

- My D is stubborn and resistant when I caringly it up


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« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2023, 02:48:07 PM »

How would you feel about asking your kids what was going on for them?

In some ways, this seems to be about how you feel they view you, in relation to BPD benders.

I'm guessing that you are the gentle parent in the family, very considerate and kind to your kids. Trying to protect them from their mom by anticipating things?

My H and I both had BPD exes, and we both have kids (LnL: S21; H: SS23, SD26, SD29).

We dealt with BPD co-parents in different ways, for different reasons.

I find it interesting with him that he changed very minor things about how he went about life and his kids (and ex) panicked and dysregulated in their own ways.

H isn't a doormat but he does doormat things, and they know that. He moved the doormat an inch and it was kind of like they realized the doormat could be moved.

I just wonder if there is more power in how you manage these moments. How you cope with your wife's dysregulations and try to recover without her self-awareness is tough and it sounds like she's not eager to change that.

But the stuff with your kids seems to have some potential for repair/recover, and maybe ideas on ways you can move the doormat if not get rid of it completely.

Do you feel comfortable sharing how the kids responded when they got home, and where things are at now with them?

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« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2023, 05:38:05 PM »

Life with ease, sorry to hear of this latest incident involving your children. I expect your kids were just frustrated in that moment with you, for not doing whatever your wife wanted and expected. They know how she is with the unfair accusations.

My dbpdw turns 30 on Friday. She has sternly insisted I don’t make a fuss and that I don’t spend any money on her birthday “because we don’t have the money” even though she spends what she wants on credit cards left, right, and centre. The added complication is that she is also very unwell. Her mother was supposed to be coming up to visit which I was hoping would generally diffuse things as well as making it seem easier to invite my own mother in the near future. But my wife has now cancelled her mother’s visit.

I’ve found this discussion useful, like Joaquin our kids are still so small. They are already recognising me as the “safe parent”. Sometimes my wife screeches at us all to get out of the room, (usually because someone woke up the baby). The older kids come to me for quiet cuddles in the next room. I’m also trying to learn as much as I can now so I can help them process my wife’s behaviour when they get older.

Back to the birthday, I’ve just thought, this rinse and repeat cycle could actually lead to my wife being ott loving towards me on her birthday, as I identified a few months ago that these were the “happiest moments” since new baby arrived: our anniversary, Christmas, New Year, even the good old British Coronation were all occasions my wife decided to fall in love with me again and post happy pictures of us on Facebook. It’s rather irritating, I’d rather she was just ok with me the other 360 days of the year. But her birthday could go either way. I just hope she stays calm for the kid’s sakes more than anything.
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« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2023, 07:25:47 PM »

Oops I spoke too soon, it is only 1.22am on her birthday and already things have gone to sh1t and I’ve been kicked out of the marital bed and my wife is extremely dysregulated. I’m glad she wanted me out because it was stupid her whining, me expressing kind words validation whatever and being told “shut up you don’t care” every time or “why are you ignoring me?” if I said nothing. Her mother did come in the end and it has seemed to make things worse. I’m truly dreading tomorrow.
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« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2023, 09:21:58 AM »

This feels too real to me, when they’re telling you you don’t care and don’t love them WHILE you’re literally giving love and care

Oops I spoke too soon, it is only 1.22am on her birthday and already things have gone to sh1t and I’ve been kicked out of the marital bed and my wife is extremely dysregulated. I’m glad she wanted me out because it was stupid her whining, me expressing kind words validation whatever and being told “shut up you don’t care” every time or “why are you ignoring me?” if I said nothing. Her mother did come in the end and it has seemed to make things worse. I’m truly dreading tomorrow.
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« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2023, 09:47:57 AM »

She doesn't feel lovable.

Therefore she cannot feel loved.

BPD makes it so she cannot source where the problem of her lovability lies.

She sources it outwards.

And is then told she's wrong (feels like fact).

You have a self, she doesn't. Words are going to mean different things to each of you.
 
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« Reply #20 on: June 09, 2023, 09:56:17 AM »

I have no clue about what went on between my parents with my BPD mother's birthday but I have a couple of good stories about us kids.

Birthdays seem to be a difficult time.

One time I made the trip ( it's several hours drive) to see her for her birthday. She knows I am coming. When I get there, she tells me her friends want to celebrate with her and she goes out alone with them, leaves me behind.

I plan a get together for her birthday with family, arrange for the food and at the last minute she gets angry at me for something and says she might not attend.

I sent her flowers on her birthday and get an email from the florists that they are sending her a replacement because she didn't like the one they sent.

I really wish I had something more optimistic to report about birthdays but somehow they seem to be an emotional day. Maybe we can feel better about it knowing it's not about us but something emotional for them.
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« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2023, 01:49:55 PM »

This is spot on livednlearned

I need to do more of this... the powerful part is reminding myself that I can't and might not be able to move the doormat all at once. But I don't have to. They (the family, uBPDw) noticed the small gestures. I actually, think this is something I internalized a year or so ago. I don't have to be the super Dad, just the calm, engaged, validating Dad, in the moment.

How did the kids react when they came home

D - goes on going on... engaged yet cautious with her mother.

S - adolescent first... he is developmentally appropriately focused on his own life (end of year stress, friends, needing alone time)

My uBPDw disinvited me to her replanned fancy dinner out... they don't know yet. I think my wife is bluffing. At first I was hurt but after sometime I realized it is an evening to do other things ... the kids will observe and most likely will want to join me.


H isn't a doormat but he does doormat things, and they know that. He moved the doormat an inch and it was kind of like they realized the doormat could be moved.

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« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2023, 01:53:38 PM »

Thanksful & Joaquin

Right?

This happens so often. For the birthday, because that's where we are on this post:

- You knew it was my birthday but you actively decided not to do anything

- As she makes an opinion about the special order gift she received ordered a month ago; that I bought the cake; helped the kids buy their gifts; wrap the gifts... [you get the picture]

Maybe all of us have read the threads on pwBPD being sick or ill. Same thing, criticizing or complaining about care while you're trying to help.



This feels too real to me, when they’re telling you you don’t care and don’t love them WHILE you’re literally giving love and care

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« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2023, 01:54:30 PM »

This is profound.

She doesn't feel lovable.

Therefore she cannot feel loved.

BPD makes it so she cannot source where the problem of her lovability lies.

She sources it outwards.

And is then told she's wrong (feels like fact).

You have a self, she doesn't. Words are going to mean different things to each of you.
 
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« Reply #24 on: June 09, 2023, 02:00:17 PM »

I journal for my sanity but it also helps on other levels (identifying patterns; seeing my contribution; being aware of triggers, etc.)

It was my journalling over the years that gave me the data to see that holidays, birthday, big dates (first day of school, night before travel), are extremely triggering.

It was confirmed a few years ago when my kids were old enough and their mother got into with them / dysregulated on those days.

On this last pass through, when my son was angry I calmly reminded him of how I coached him the couple of days before that it could be a rough day. I could see him make the connection in his eyes and then calm (towards me).


I have no clue about what went on between my parents with my BPD mother's birthday but I have a couple of good stories about us kids.

Birthdays seem to be a difficult time.

One time I made the trip ( it's several hours drive) to see her for her birthday. She knows I am coming. When I get there, she tells me her friends want to celebrate with her and she goes out alone with them, leaves me behind.

I plan a get together for her birthday with family, arrange for the food and at the last minute she gets angry at me for something and says she might not attend.

I sent her flowers on her birthday and get an email from the florists that they are sending her a replacement because she didn't like the one they sent.

I really wish I had something more optimistic to report about birthdays but somehow they seem to be an emotional day. Maybe we can feel better about it knowing it's not about us but something emotional for them.
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« Reply #25 on: June 09, 2023, 11:53:47 PM »

I recall one morning my ex was particularly nasty.  I would have to leave for work but she stayed in bed, moaning and groaning.  So I'd often feed our preschooler.  Then this one morning:
Years from now you'll need to be able to look your child in the eyes and tell him, "Yes, I did care for you, I did stand up for you, I did fight for you, I did my reasonable best."  Your child won't expect you to have been Superman, but he will want, no, need, you to assure him you didn't willingly walk away.  Believe me, that is the message she will be relentlessly pounding into him over the years, whether directly or subtly.

My ex did that forcefully even before we separated...  "Papi no te quiere pero mami te quiere." - Translation:  Daddy doesn't want/love you but mommy does.

My actions proved otherwise.  Yes, in the temp orders I was non-primary minority time parent and that lasted about 2.5 years but that was the court's arbitrary decision, not mine.  The point is, do what you reasonably can within your circumstances and ability, never give up and as for the rest, well, "Let Go and Let God".

So your kids may simply be echoing what they've been told many times before.  Your continued love, assurances and actions can limit the damage, though it may take time.  One advantage of a divorce, if that is your future path, is that you will get at least some time with your children in your own peaceful home away from the rhetoric from the oppositional ex.
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« Reply #26 on: June 10, 2023, 05:47:32 AM »

BPD is a disorder that affects all relationships. Of course the pwBPD has similar issues with the children- because they do with every relationship to some extent. You may see that your pwBPD seems to do better with acquaintances - for a while- because BPD dynamics occur with the closest relationships- and that would be immediate family.

Small children gain verbal and social- emotional skills as they get older- so you may see it more in the older kids.

We did have time with Dad alone as on weekends, he took us out on outings, to the zoo, the movies, out to eat. BPD mother didn't come with us. She stayed home. I don't know what she did during that time. One thing to consider- Dad, alone- was different. He was more relaxed. He had a sense of humor and could be really funny sometimes.

With my BPD mother- the focus was on her. We all walked on eggshells around her we did was focused on what she wanted to do. If she changed her mind, we'd have to change plans. BPD mother didn't seem as interested in doing "kid activities" with us.

Forever Dad makes the point of divorce allowing for a space where the kids are away from dysfunction. It also means you, the spouse, has this space too. We also got some of this space by visiting and staying with relatives, and also when Dad took us out on weekends.

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