Trying to understand her obsession - 3 years of push/pull relationship

[leonardo_dicapri]

Hey everyone,
I am in a push/pull relationship with a BPD woman.
She is a classic BPD with abusing mother , and unfortunately she grew up without a father who died when she was a little girl.

Our relationship started as a "normal" couple that trying to go out and dating, pretty quickly I realized that something was strange there, and she has a problem with intimacy, at least with me.. but on the other hand, she just became very attached to me, she moved away from intimacy, but just can't let go of me and always had to have me present in her life in some way..

She continued to date other men, was never in a stable relationship, and even got a regular sexual partner, (most of her partners are older guys/ married guys..) and yet, she just won't let go of me for the last 3 years, even while she is with her sexual partners, she is trying to revive our relationship In any creative way you can think about.

The thing is that she is unable to produce sexual intimacy with me at all, sometimes she just want to sleep at night together in the same bed with me, but with no touch, just want me close to her.. :\

Those are my main key points:

1.I am one of her favorite persons, maybe "the one" (when we are talking or meeting, we hardly manage to say more than two sentences without her crying or getting upset, no matter what the topic of conversation is at all).

2.She is building fantasies around me, she want us to go travel in other countries for several month, "starting new life together"... -__-  and she insists on it!

3.She is avoiding intimacy with me, is this because she see me as a "father" or a "savior"? but in her body language she is still attracted to me, it seems she just can't get into an intimate situation with me out of great fears, sometimes even a hug can make her crazy.. (but with other men she sexually active, in a promiscuous way, as part of her "acting out).

4. I know she really loves me and not playing game, she is just not healthy .. ;\

What is your opinion based on your experience, how dose she see me, like a father? friend? husband? who knows.. she saying that we are "friends" not "partners"..  but she is always jealous of the female partners I go out with, and she always tries to "steal" me for her fantasies in a distant land.

(After a year of long persuasion she is finally in psychological treatment which seems to be helping a little, but the obsession with me did not fade at all)


Thank you!
 

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[kells76]

Hello and welcome to the group -- glad you joined as you work through questions about your relationship.

Something that stood out to me in your description of your situation was this:

What is your opinion based on your experience, how dose she see me, like a father? friend? husband? who knows.. she saying that we are "friends" not "partners"..  but she is always jealous of the female partners I go out with, and she always tries to "steal" me for her fantasies in a distant land.

and that hits a couple of points.

One is that when we're interacting with a pwBPD, we sometimes take the position of "well, even though she didn't explicitly say ABC, she only kind of hinted at it, I know that what she REALLY meant was ABC".  We adopt the role of "mindreader" about what the pwBPD "actually meant". I know, I've done it too (the pwBPD in my life is my H's kids' mom).

However, that isn't a healthy approach. In a certain sense, we need to do the pwBPD the favor of treating their words like they mean what they say -- like adults. We are overfunctioning for them when we take on the mantle of "they don't really mean it when they say X, I know there must be another meaning".

So, one idea is that when she says that you and she are friends, it's a respectful move for you to treat that like she means it (vs looking for "a deeper meaning").

...

Now, I get the other part of it too, where pwBPD often say one thing and seem to do things that undermine the very thing they said. That is probably part of the disorder, where pwBPD struggle to have a sense of self. What does it even mean to have a relationship with another person, when you don't know what it's like to be a person yourself? I'd imagine that that would contribute to confusion on both sides. And, perhaps that's part of what you're seeing when she seems jealous of the other women in your life. Her words say she wants to be friends (and I still do think it's respectful to treat her like she means what she says), yet she acts differently due to her inner lack of self, among other possible reasons.

pwBPD also struggle with healthy boundaries -- it seems that they both fight against "generally normal" boundaries, and desperately crave strong boundaries and external order. That can contribute to some pwBPD seeming to have a "rules are for you, not for me" attitude -- for example, "I can have boyfriends, but you can't have girlfriends".

...

Right now you seem to be in a "friends with few benefits" setup. She is troubled by you seeing other people, and isn't able to be physically close to you. You sleep in the same bed with her without touching, and also have other girlfriend(s). She seems to like a fantasy version of you. You aren't getting intimacy from her, and are getting it from others.

Perhaps the biggest question about this whole situation is --

what do you want?

[leonardo_dicapri]

Perhaps the biggest question about this whole situation is --

what do you want?

Thank you for your detailed answer.

What I actually want is that she will be healed from BPD with a good and helpful treatment.

I have no expectations for intimacy or normal relationship after I have been through all of this bizarre relationship with her.
The problem is that she is continuing with the fantasies, and rational explanations won’t help there, every time that I am explaining her that what she asks is unrealistic, she is having a rage and feels abandoned by me.. :/ it is happening for the last 12 month every week.. I think that I will try to put more boundaries strongly.. although that’s also leads to strong rages.

[kells76]

Thank you for your detailed answer.

What I actually want is that she will be healed from BPD with a good and helpful treatment.

In a way, that's what all of us here want, whatever relationship we have with a pwBPD (partner, friend, child, parent...). The world would be a better place if those suffering from MH issues got effective treatment and healing. I'm with you there.

One challenge with BPD is that pwBPD has a lot of inner shame that they don't have tools and skills to handle. Any suggestion that "hey, you might have a problem, why not get help" can set off that shame and turn it to blame/projection: "I'm not the one with the problem, YOU'RE the one with the problem, I'm perfect and don't need help, YOU'RE the one who's making me have issues."

Check out our article on Anosognosia and Getting a "Borderline" into Therapy if you haven't already, and feel free to share your thoughts on it here. Anything resonate with you or seem familiar?

I have no expectations for intimacy or normal relationship after I have been through all of this bizarre relationship with her.
The problem is that she is continuing with the fantasies, and rational explanations won’t help there, every time that I am explaining her that what she asks is unrealistic, she is having a rage and feels abandoned by me.. :/ it is happening for the last 12 month every week.. I think that I will try to put more boundaries strongly.. although that’s also leads to strong rages.

Another important concept we talk about here is the idea of not "JADE"-ing -- not Justifying, Arguing, Defending, or Explaining, when we're in a conflict/disagreement with a pwBPD. Basically, those approaches tend to add fuel to the fire and inflame the conflict, rather than cooling things down.

Have you had a chance yet to read our thread on Don't "JADE" (justify, argue, defend, explain)? It's over in our Tools and skills workshops, which is a great resource if you're considering staying in the relationship.

Would you stay if you knew she might never change -- that this is how it's going to be?

[leonardo_dicapri]

In a way, that's what all of us here want, whatever relationship we have with a pwBPD (partner, friend, child, parent...). The world would be a better place if those suffering from MH issues got effective treatment and healing. I'm with you there.

One challenge with BPD is that pwBPD has a lot of inner shame that they don't have tools and skills to handle. Any suggestion that "hey, you might have a problem, why not get help" can set off that shame and turn it to blame/projection: "I'm not the one with the problem, YOU'RE the one with the problem, I'm perfect and don't need help, YOU'RE the one who's making me have issues."

Check out our article on Anosognosia and Getting a "Borderline" into Therapy if you haven't already, and feel free to share your thoughts on it here. Anything resonate with you or seem familiar?

Another important concept we talk about here is the idea of not "JADE"-ing -- not Justifying, Arguing, Defending, or Explaining, when we're in a conflict/disagreement with a pwBPD. Basically, those approaches tend to add fuel to the fire and inflame the conflict, rather than cooling things down.

Have you had a chance yet to read our thread on Don't "JADE" (justify, argue, defend, explain)? It's over in our Tools and skills workshops, which is a great resource if you're considering staying in the relationship.

Would you stay if you knew she might never change -- that this is how it's going to be?

Unfortunately I did a lot of mistakes with her, especially in the communication aspect, since I didn't know exactly what is BPD and it took me some time to learn about it.
Thank you for the useful links.

As for the question of staying with her: I tried to stay as a friend in the last year, not a partner, but as you know with all of her black&white thinking it was not possible, or she forces me to give in to her fantasies, or she is having rage on me - block/no contact/whatever.. and then she back again at 2:00 AM crying on phone with fantasies again.
Since she started an helpful treatment recently, I hope that she will accept the boundaries and we can stay "regular" friends respecting each other privacy.

[kells76]

Unfortunately I did a lot of mistakes with her, especially in the communication aspect, since I didn't know exactly what is BPD and it took me some time to learn about it.
Thank you for the useful links.

That's pretty normal -- many of us here (myself included) started at ground zero with BPD-specific communication skills. They're not intuitive and need practice, and I know I went through lots of frustration with beating my head against the wall of "but I explained it all so clearly, why is she still arguing?" I'm glad the links are helpful; keep exploring the site and the "tools and skills" workshops especially. Reading actual dialogue of "he said - she said" from other members, and reading the feedback of how to approach those real-world situations differently, can be really enlightening.

As for the question of staying with her: I tried to stay as a friend in the last year, not a partner, but as you know with all of her black&white thinking it was not possible, or she forces me to give in to her fantasies, or she is having rage on me - block/no contact/whatever.. and then she back again at 2:00 AM crying on phone with fantasies again.
Since she started an helpful treatment recently, I hope that she will accept the boundaries and we can stay "regular" friends respecting each other privacy.

Can you tell us a little more about how the following situations look "in real life":

-she forces you to give in to her fantasies

-she rages on you

?

...

And I'm curious about the idea of her "accepting the boundaries". Many pwBPD seem to both be infuriated by boundaries, and desperately need them at the same time.

Do you see your boundaries as things she has to cooperate with? I ask because there's another way to approach boundaries that may be more helpful in your situation, if you're interested.

-kells76

[leonardo_dicapri]

Can you tell us a little more about how the following situations look "in real life":

-she forces you to give in to her fantasies

-she rages on you

?
...

And I'm curious about the idea of her "accepting the boundaries". Many pwBPD seem to both be infuriated by boundaries, and desperately need them at the same time.

Do you see your boundaries as things she has to cooperate with? I ask because there's another way to approach boundaries that may be more helpful in your situation, if you're interested.

-kells76

When it come to fantasies, so for example she want me to travel with her for several weeks/months to different country, she wants us to go "far away" and travel together, because we did it in the past and she says that it was the best experience of her life.. :/, she want to start a "new life" with me in a far away country -_-
I think that maybe she sees me as a "savior" from her abusive mother. 
When I am sharing with her my objections from such a travel (I have work, family, we are not a couple, we are just friends..) she starting with devaluations, anger, no contact etc.. she relax, and going back again and demanding me to join the fantasies..

As for now, boundaries didn't work with her, she gets offended and feels abandoned by me when I try to place them.
I will be happy to hear about more efficient ways to place boundaries.