wife had breakdown and involved the kids for the first time

[Smedley Butler]

I left town this past weekend to go to a wedding, and my wife stayed home to work.  This was prearranged, and her mom was in town to assist with the kids.  Thursday night before I left, she initiated a big argument, but I mostly just deescalated, and left early in the morning.  This is standard fare when I travel without her, so I didn’t think much of it, but we didn’t speak much over the weekend. 

Monday morning she took her mom to the airport, and when she got home she was very emotional.  This is also fairly typical, but instead of gradually getting better throughout the day, she got worse, eventually just crying more and more and going to bed.  Tuesday she was supposed to work, so I was planning on taking leave that day to stay home with the girls.  She told me early in the morning that she got put on call (she’s a nurse, so this is not abnormal, but as it turns out, she told them she couldn’t come in due to, presumably, her mental state), but since I believed she may still have to go in, I stayed home anyways.

Starting about ten in the morning she just began crying and not stopping.  She was going about the house doing chores, cleaning, etc, and just crying continuously.  Our little girls were growing increasingly distressed over this, but she just kept telling them she was ok.  Finally she told me she needed to talk to me, so we went in the back room.  There she told me that her mental wellness was not good, and she listed about ten things that were all making her overwhelmed with stress and anxiety (to include the girls’ behavior, my behavior, future PCS decisions, whether or not to send our daughter to camp next summer, and a myriad of other, frankly, fairly routine issues).  I gently tried to explain to her that her OWN mental health was in such a state that she was unable to see clearly that these seemingly insurmountable problems really weren’t as bad as they seemed to her, and that she was seeing reality through a skewed lens.  At first she was receptive to this, but gradually as the conversation went on, she checked back out, resumed crying, and pretty much shut down.

At this point I felt the best thing to do would be to get the girls out of the house and give her some breathing room, so I took them to Home Depot and a couple other places to get them away from it all.  When we got home, we hadn’t even gotten inside when she came out with a bag and told us she was going to the urgent care.  She gave no explanation, and she barely even acknowledged the girls.  Younger daughter (6) started frantically asking if mama was going to die, and older daughter (9) started crying and wailing that it was all her fault.  After my wife left, the girls were in a near panic state, and my older one kept crying and nearly screaming that it was all her fault and that her behavior is what made mama have to go to the hospital.  I started to try to explain that mama just wasn’t feeling well, but she told me that mama had been telling them that their behavior and bickering with each other was making her crazy and sick and that she might have to go to the hospital because of it.  So, needless to say, they were in rough shape.  I spent the next four hours or so trying to keep them distracted and playing, but none of us had any idea what was going on with my wife, where she really went, or what was happening.  They were quite distraught. 

Finally, about four hours later, she came back.  When she pulled into the driveway, the girls rushed out to see her and make sure she was ok, but she barely acknowledged them.  She gave them half hugs, went to check the mail, came inside and made a little dinner, and essentially acted like the entire day hadn’t happened.  The girls and I went back outside for awhile, and when we came in, my wife was laying on the bed in a pretty much zombie like state, staring at the TV.  She was responsive but completely devoid of emotion.  The girls tried to engage with her, but she didn’t really respond.  Finally, she just told me to go put them to bed, which I went ahead and did. 

She was still pretty out of it the next day, but by later in the week was back to "normal".   She has not acknowledged that the entire episode even happened. 

My suspicion of why she included the girls in this is because in recent months I have stopped justifying and arguing back with her every time she feels the need to tell me how awful I am.  I think she has gotten desperate for someone to be her emotional punching bag, and she has shifted to the girls.  This is truly an awful thing for me to consider, and something that I would have never thought her capable of because I know how much she loves them, but I watched it happen in real time.

It's been a rough week.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Smedley Butler]

going to frame the story a little more - the trip I went to was to Seattle for Marine buddy's wedding.  my wife doesnt know him or the bride, but originally, we were both going to go for a little vacation.  she looked at flights and hotels a few months back, said it was going to be way too expensive, and that she didnt thing we should go if it was going to cost that much.  i agreed, and the trip was off.  fast forward to early June, my buddy asked me if we were still coming (because i had RSVPed yes, but then forgot to update him).  i told him that it didnt look like it, but that i'd take one more look at flights.  turns out that i was able to get a round trip out there pretty cheap, no rental car was necessary, and they had a big AirBNB already reserved for a bunch of guys traveling to the wedding without their spouses or SO's.  basically the whole weekend would cost me a flight and incidentals.  i KNEW this was going to be a major issue with my wife, so i tried very carefully to explain what happened, when, and how, and that i would like to zip out and back for the weekend.  her mother was already scheduled to come into town that weekend, so i knew i wouldnt have to watch the girls while she worked.  i could tell she didnt want me to go, but she also couldnt enunciate why.  she just didnt want me to go.  i waited a day, then sent her a long message basically spelling out exactly what i just typed out above, told her that I would prefer to go with her, but that it just had worked out in a weird way that i didnt intend.  she just said "ok" and then refused to talk more about it.  so i went ahead and got a flight and made the trip.

i realize that going on this trip was a major trigger for her, and, full disclosure, i kind of knew it would be (not to the extent that it turned out to be, but i knew she would be very upset).  she fully believes that I schemed to get her to not go so that I could go without her, which honest to God isnt the truth.  i would have preferred to go with her, and i mean that. 

i just dont know how to handle these kinds of non-standard situations with her, but i also feel like the solution cant just be "never take trips without my wife"

[kells76]

Hey SB;

This is hard stuff. I know you didn't want your kids impacted like that; it's excruciating watching it go down.

Are you still seeing your T? Have you run this by him (her?) yet? I'm wondering if your T can give you a referral for a kids' T. What happened sounds pretty overwhelming for them. Your T might also have some insight into how to make that happen if your W is resistant, though in a weird way, the fact that she got help (drove to urgent care) might be a way in -- "babe, just like you showed the kids it's OK to get help, we'll work together to get help for them" or something. I get that "her modeling getting help" is not the core lesson of this past weekend  but if you think she might dig her heels in, it could be worth trying (so that she doesn't feel shamed and then resist).

What's your childcare support system like these days? Neighbors, family in town, fellow faith group members, friends, kids' friends' families? There's dealing with the immediate fallout, and then there's also knowing that your W may be parenting at the extent of her ability right now, which is not a lot. It might be a good idea to plan ahead for backup child care (out of the house?) so that on those days where you "see it on the horizon", you can set something up quickly to get the kids out of the way.

I get what you're saying about the solution not being "so don't leave the house", and that makes sense; caving in doesn't make things better long term.

Your juggling act might be how to balance staying in the marriage, with keeping your kids out of the line of fire, with somehow affirming/leveraging this new opening from your W that in a weird way she knows she's not doing well and needs treatment.

Really sorry it went down that way. How are the kids doing today?

[Notwendy]

I think it's good that you went on the trip and had a guy's weekend. It isn't good for anyone to isolate from other family members and friends so as not to upset a spouse. There has to be a balance of course- not be out all the time with friends - but that's not the case here.

On the topic of the kids. This was common in my family growing up- BPD mother blaming me for her feelings. I know now that this is what she does, it's not just with me, but it feels personal when you are a child. I recall asking my father if it was my fault that my mother wasn't happy. I don't recall what he said or know what he was thinking hearing me ask that.

As a teen, she told me that I was the reason my parents were having issues with each other (I don't know how she made that connection, I wasn't doing anything that would do that). I graduated high school early and then went to college away from home. I assumed they were happy once that happened.

I learned later that they still had their same dynamics. Of course they would because these were between them. Kids want to please their parents. Your girls want to make their mother happy. For them, though, it's an impossible task, because we can't control anyone's feelings. The problem though is that- this task becomes assigned to them. ( due to the BPD dynamics) - and they will inevitably fail at it, many times.

Understandably, for my father, and for us too, it helped when we didn't "upset mother" and so we all made this effort. I would encourage you though, to counter this "job" for your girls. All kids need to learn standards for behavior. We should be respectful to our parents and have standards of conduct for how we treat others, but they are not responsible for their mother's feelings. It's hard for kids to understand the difference.

[Smedley Butler]

kells - I still see a therapist, but not the one that my wife and I were both seeing.  we have been trying to find a therapist for the kids, but there is very little availability where we live for whatever reason.  i'm of the opinion that while therapy is good for EVERYONE, most of my kids' issues are just reactive to their mom.  when it's just me and them, they exhibit very few of the same symptoms that she supposedly sees.  our childcare support system is not great - we live out of state, so grandparents arent here a whole lot.  i agree that my wife is parenting at the extent of her ability, which is frustrating to me, because it seems that her extent is pretty weak.  i definitely agree that i need a "see it on the horizon" plan for them, which is something i hadnt considered and is a very good idea.

regarding her trip to urgent care - you may be right that she was legitimately seeking help, but my feeling is more that she was trying to demonstrate to us (me & the girls) how unreasonably awful we are and how remarkably difficult her life is because of us.  to be fair, i'm also very jaded and cynical towards her right now, and it's hard to feel anything else.

the kids are back to normal on the surface now.  but i know there's a lot underneath the surface that is working at them, especially my younger one.  i'm really trying to demonstrate stability for them every single day when i get home from work, and it's remarkable how well they respond to just some good ol fashioned positive attention and being told "you're ok, i love you, i like you, and i'm proud of you".  breaks my heart a little to be honest.

[Smedley Butler]

notwendy - I started "understanding the borderline mother" this week on audible, and i'm about four hours in.  holy smokes, it is eye opening how much impact a mother has on her children, especially little girls.  i'm making it a point now to ALWAYS make sure they know that they arent responsible for mama and daddy's feelings, and nothing is their fault with regards to what kind of moods we're in or what kind of emotions they see us going through.  it just seems so nasty and cruel that my wife would say that to them, and i truly would not have thought her capable of it. 

basically both the "waif" and "hermit" chapters describe her to a T.  listening to the waif chapter, i was like oh my gosh this is her!  then listening to the hermit chapter, i was like on no wait, THIS is her!  i think she possesses a very high degree of both of those.

[Smedley Butler]

couple more thoughts -

i found out during this episode that she has been prescribed Ativan, which i dont know much about other than it's a benzo.  it may explain some of the times that she has been completely spaced out.  not sure what to make of this, but it seems like a pretty heavy drug. 

also, and this is going to make me sound totally selfish and probably a little like a jerk, but this whole episode with the kids, the breakdown, the urgent care visit, etc has been extremely validating for me.  i called my dad to let him know what was going on, and also so that he could hear the story in case things got even crazier.  he has long been my sounding board for difficult times with my wife, and while he is very loving and patient, he has always been pretty much like "yeah marriage is hard" and then reminds me of all the ways i'm actually probably mostly to blame for our issues.  now he is finally starting to be like, ok maybe there is something more to this after all.  i'm like - FINALLY someone is starting to believe me

[zondolit]

Ah, it takes such courage and vulnerability to open up to others about what is really going on in our marriages/relationships, and then to have someone tell you "all marriages are hard" or take a lot of work is like a kick when you're down. I'm so glad your father is shifting his view.

You do not sound like a jerk or selfish at all to feel validated by this unfortunate episode. Not at all.

[Smedley Butler]

then to have someone tell you "all marriages are hard" or take a lot of work is like a kick when you're down.

in fairness to my dad, he has been teaching a marriage sunday school class at his church for most of his adult life, and generally speaking, the advice he gives me is probably pretty sound for a typical marriage facing typical communication problems.  and my wife presents a very well put-together facade for the world.  and a lot of the criticism he gives me is valid, in general - i do like to argue, and i do like to be right.  for years he has used this trait as the reason for why my marriage has been so bad.  and it certainly hasnt helped - my inherent argumentative side played right into the JADE game with my wife as she sought conflict. 

what he missed, and is now starting to understand, is that she SOUGHT OUT the conflict with me and thrived on it.  the analogy I have used many times when i used to always fight back and defend myself is that if she comes along and says she feels like i'm an axe murderer, there is really no way to reasonably respond to that other than to be like, no...i'm not an axe murderer.  which is then met with YOU ARE INVALIDATING MY FEELINGS. 

now i just tell her i'm not arguing.  if she wants to feel that I'm an axe murderer on a given random Tuesday or something, then that's fine with me.  i'll be in the garage.

fortunately my dad is starting to get it, which is a tremendous encouragement to me.

[Link]

This approach you are taking with your wife is something that I am doing more of. At least I'm not JADEing as much. It is something I just started doing but I did not really know the meaning of JADE to this moment. The "E" in JADE I was missing. She hates when I explain and believes it is the same as justifying. Explaining to clarify is different from justifying but not in the mind of my wife. They are the same. I will stop explaining as well and see what that brings.

[zondolit]

the analogy I have used many times when i used to always fight back and defend myself is that if she comes along and says she feels like i'm an axe murderer, there is really no way to reasonably respond to that other than to be like, no...i'm not an axe murderer.  which is then met with YOU ARE INVALIDATING MY FEELINGS.

On one (!) occasion I was able to successfully validate in such a situation. I managed to put myself in my husband's position and with true sympathy say "It must be awful to feel your spouse is [an axe murderer]." Because it really would be awful! My husband began to cry: someone finally got it! And to myself I just have to laugh because WHO got it? Well, the axe murderer, of course!

[Smedley Butler]

and with true sympathy say "It must be awful to feel your spouse is [an axe murderer]."

this is probably the smartest and most empathetic way to respond and is probably the healthiest as well.  the problem i have right now is that i just dont have it in me to try to empathize with the insanity like when she tells me she is "basically a single mom".  it's just so insulting to me that i dont care enough to be empathetic to that.  i just think to myself, "whatever you say lady" and tell her i'm not arguing. 

maybe i can eventually get back to a point that i can be more tender hearted towards her, but i just cant do it right now.  my energy is all going into my kids.

[Link]

In the midst of my wife's raging I feel I could become an axe murderer. ...just saying.

I'm restrained by the fact that murder is wrong. (just clarifying)

[Smedley Butler]

hahahaha

yes, i know that feeling as well! 

[Link]

i realize that going on this trip was a major trigger for her, and, full disclosure, i kind of knew it would be (not to the extent that it turned out to be, but i knew she would be very upset).  she fully believes that I schemed to get her to not go so that I could go without her, which honest to God isnt the truth.  i would have preferred to go with her, and i mean that. 

Maybe I have been out of the loop of the real world for too many years but I know for a fact that this trip would be an issue for most women let alone one with BPD. The fact that you initially were going together, then it ended up just you going would trigger any one. Granted, my view of life has been skewed by an overly jealous emotional woman. But there is also that factor of selflessness that is important to a good functioning marriage. This is just an observation about your choice to go without her. Were you looking for a reason to trigger her? Are you at the end of your rope and testing her limits? Maybe subconsciously?

My wife went on a trip to Las Vegas with our daughter 4 years ago. I wasn't invited. I didn't care, it was never in the cards that I was going. Celine Dion is not my thing. If I was going and dropped along the way I think I would have had some issues with it.

I don't know the whole story and I'm sure there is more to it. I'm just making an observation. For what it's worth

[Smedley Butler]

i 100% did not do it to trigger her.  i wanted her to go, and she thought it was going to be too expensive, so we decided not to go.  not until right before the trip when i realized i could do it on the cheap did i reconsider.  if i had chosen NOT to go, it would have been simply a useless sacrifice.  her mom would have still been in town.  i would have still been at home with her mom.  she still would have worked. 

she would never in a million years consider it an act of selflessness.  to my knowledge, nothing i have ever done has been considered an act of selflessness.  she always thinks i'm somehow playing an angle or scheming against her. 

i agree that this would be an issue for most women, but honestly, that seems more of an issue that women need to work out than men.  ANYONE, husband or wife, has to be able to have a certain degree of flexibility and freedom in a marriage, and this was just a case of "the way it happened".   

dont need to derail the conversation to a battle of the sexes though. 

[Smedley Butler]

to my knowledge, nothing i have ever done has been considered an act of selflessness.  she always thinks i'm somehow playing an angle or scheming against her.

I literally gave up my active duty commission as a Marine officer, my dream job, to move back to Houston so we could live where she wanted near her mom.  her response?  that I just did it so that I could have something to hold over her head every time we fight.  and when i was miserable in my civilian job, she told me I was only acting miserable to make her feel guilty for me leaving active duty. 

i dont think missing a wedding would move the needle on the "selfless husband" gauge.

[Link]

she would never in a million years consider it an act of selflessness.  to my knowledge, nothing i have ever done has been considered an act of selflessness.  she always thinks i'm somehow playing an angle or scheming against her. 

 

I am in no way suggesting that she would see it as an act of selflessness. My wife wouldn't acknowledge me stepping in front of a bullet for her. She'd probably say it was my fault that the dude had a gun. It's all nothing when it comes to this disorder. I'm just referring to the fact that in a normal marriage a couple was going on a trip then because of what ever circumstances only one was going I think a sacrifice could be made for the couple. "Hunny, I could be going on this trip but if I can't be there with you I'd rather not." That sort of thing. But in my dream of a normal relationship, at that point my wife would say "I want you to go without me. Seriously you enjoy yourself and I'll be looking forward to your return. We'll have awesome sex when you get home."  Like I said, I've been out of the real world.

[Smedley Butler]

haha ok, point taken.  agreed.  probably all things being equal, it would have been better to just not go. 

[GaGrl]

I literally gave up my active duty commission as a Marine officer, my dream job, to move back to Houston so we could live where she wanted near her mom.  her response?  that I just did it so that I could have something to hold over her head every time we fight.  and when i was miserable in my civilian job, she told me I was only acting miserable to make her feel guilty for me leaving active duty. 

i dont think missing a wedding would move the needle on the "selfless husband" gauge.

My H was married to his ex (uBPD/NPD) during his military career. When his children were all in their teens, he was offered an assignment in Central America, a training support position as XO, unaccompanied of course. It would have made his career -- he would have gone to a Pentagon assignment next. Considering his family situation, he declined the offer -- he said if he left his wife alone with the kids for two years, someone would be dead when he returned.

H had no awareness of what her mental illness was -- he developed some strategies and techniques that worked for him, but she had no interest in admitting she had a problem or needed help, so...nothing. In the end, his rationale for staying was to protect the children.

[Smedley Butler]

GaGrl - how long did they stay married and how old were the kids?  just curious.  did he reach military retirement?

for record, i am back full-time in the Marines now.  i gave the civilian life three years and i just missed the life too much.  interestingly, being in the first time, out for three years, and now back in again for the last five - none of this has had a particularly large impact on the dynamic with my wife.  the fights have been the same frequency and the same intensity.  my job has been the topic sometimes, sometimes not, but it hasnt really changed much one way or the other.  so i figure i might as well keep doing the job i love.

[Link]

There should be give and take in a relationship built on mutual respect, love, and trust. Since trust is a big missing factor with pwbpd, going on trips away from them is nearly impossible. In my experience. I have spent one day away from my wife in many many years this past summer. I had to get away from her or things were going to get ugly. I spent the night at my brothers house. This has been a soar spot for a year and is the reason she is trying to eliminate my brother. Nothing ever works in our favor...pwbpd will always twist reality to there benefit.

[Smedley Butler]

that has been my experience as well.  i like to backpack, and since i live in the deep south, i have to travel to get to get backpacking destinations.  i try to do one backpacking trip a year, usually for 4-5 days.  every single time i invite my wife to come along, even if she doesnt want to backpack, just to get away.  she has never taken me up on this.  i often plan these trips up to a year in advance, with her knowing about it all along.  never fails, a day or two before a trip, she instigates a huge blow up that lasts the duration of my trip and continues afterwards.  i am convinced she is just trying to ruin the trip for me because she cant stand the thought of me having fun out of her presence.  truly mind boggling.  i ENCOURAGE her to take trips with her friends or to go see her family (she rarely does this - it doesnt align with her victim narrative that she has spun).

[GaGrl]

GaGrl - how long did they stay married and how old were the kids?  just curious.  did he reach military retirement?

for record, i am back full-time in the Marines now.  i gave the civilian life three years and i just missed the life too much.  interestingly, being in the first time, out for three years, and now back in again for the last five - none of this has had a particularly large impact on the dynamic with my wife.  the fights have been the same frequency and the same intensity.  my job has been the topic sometimes, sometimes not, but it hasnt really changed much one way or the other.  so i figure i might as well keep doing the job i love.

My H's 30 year military career was interesting. He joined the Army in 1970 as Enlisted and married the ex when he was stationed in SE Asia. He would tell you it was a love marriage when in actuality it was very much about money and getting to the U.S. (she was not discreet in discussing this in front of friends). Because of cultural mores, she was willing to stay in the marriage but also had no compunction about affairs. The marriage was one of blatant and near constant infidelities on her part.  H went Reserve and worked for the D.O.D, then went to OCS (Infantry) and was again active until the last few years of service, when he was Reserve again and taught ROTC.

H said his reason for going to OCS was to be able to support his family while not having to live with her all the time. (Unfortunately, he then realized the effect of that on the children.) They lived together a total of 20 years, then were separated for over another 10 years before divorcing. By the time the children were in their teens, they were aware of their mother's relationships outside the marriage and were asking why he did not divorce her. The F-O-G was thick. He felt enormous obligation for having brought her to the U.S. and did not trust that she could function alone. She actually cannot, as it turns out, but there have been a series of men who fulfill that functioning for her.

[Notwendy]

From your Dad's perspective- and his is spiritual as well- he's correct in that marriages are challenging- by nature- to allow us to grow emotionally as human beings. But I don't think this kind of marriage advice applies in some circumstances where one person is destructive to the other. I know that religions and denominations vary on the topic of divorce but in the case of abuse, or addiction, or serious mental illness- those are serious considerations that I hope are taken into consideration and have guidance for what to do.

Others not "getting it" seems to be common. I don't think anyone can fully understand it if they haven't experienced it. I think this is especially common when it's a mother. We attribute so much to that title. It's also difficult for others to "get it" when the pwBPD behaves differently with them than in their immediate family. I understand what you mean by feeling validated. For me, nobody in my mother's circle knew. It was a big family secret. Now that she's elderly and has engaged in similar dynamics with the people who assist her, others have seen her behaviors too. There's something validating about it but also it's made her situation challenging.

I am glad, for your kids, that you are learning about how BPD affects children and also about your own relationship. I think it's good for you to keep your own interests and be able to stand up for yourself. While a mother is a role model, so are you and you will be the one to role model emotionally stable behavior and boundaries.

[Smedley Butler]

It's also difficult for others to "get it" when the pwBPD behaves differently with them than in their immediate family.

this sums up my entire marriage, both before and with kids.  a lot of the time, my wife behind closed doors is a completely different person than when out in public.  i have actually seen her make the change so fast from seething rage and contempt for me to smiley-happy "we are a perfect family" mode that it is almost like she put on a literal mask.  it is unsettling and can be a little creepy.

[Smedley Butler]

GaGrl, your husband's career sounds like mine in a lot of ways (but very different in a lot of ways too).  I did a long stint active duty, got out, did the reserve thing for awhile, and now i'm back active again.  handful of deployments thrown in there too.  in hindsight, in a lot of ways, my life offers the exact opposite of what my wife probably needs.  while we are very financially stable (not according to her, of course, but according to math we are), the inherent unpredictability and instability in the life of a Marine is not good for her.  she knew what i was when she married me, of course, and i did NOT know what she was when i married her, so i dont really carry much guilt for doing the job i love.  but...it still makes sense why it has been so hard on her.

[GaGrl]

this sums up my entire marriage, both before and with kids.  a lot of the time, my wife behind closed doors is a completely different person than when out in public.  i have actually seen her make the change so fast from seething rage and contempt for me to smiley-happy "we are a perfect family" mode that it is almost like she put on a literal mask.  it is unsettling and can be a little creepy.

Many, many people who post on this board have commented on this very aspect of BPD. H says his ex could be in the midst of a towering rage, hear the phone ring, and answer it in the most saccharine sweet voice you could imagine. She presented herself as a competent person, warm and gracious, and would make friends easily -- until the inevitable happened and new friends either experienced the transactional nature of her relationships and felt taken advantage if, or crossed her and saw a rage first hand.

H saw red flags before he brought her to the U.S. but excused them as immaturity -- she was very young when they married, as was he. He truly believed that a good, Christian marriage would result in her assimilation and maturing. (How he thought this, with her having grown up Buddhist, I'll never know.) But he truly did not see the extent of her mental illness until about 18 months into the marriage.

[Smedley Butler]

until the inevitable happened and new friends either experienced the transactional nature of her relationships and felt taken advantage if, or crossed her and saw a rage first hand

my wife does a pretty good job of concealing this side of her from everyone but me (and now the girls).  i suspect her family has seen it as well, but they close ranks around her to protect her, so it's hard to say.

I think with her, her friends eventually just tire of the incessant dreariness and instability and sort of fade into the background.  she doesnt really seem to "lose" friends, per se, but they fade in and out, with usually one at any given time being the "main friend".  right now she is friends with a girl at our church and she spends hours on the phone with her and texting with her.  this girl is late twenties, maybe early thirties (my wife and i are both early forties), which is why i think she has been chosen to take up the mantle.  i think she is young enough that she still sees my wife as a mentor and "big sister" type, when in reality, my wife is likely sucking the life out of this poor girl with tales of how awful I am. 

[Lenfan2]

   Smedley, from your posts I see a bit of myself 20 years ago. Unfortunately, I did not catch on about BPD until my daughter was in her teens. I feel some guilt when I read posts on this site from women who remark that their fathers did not do enough to protect them from their mothers’ emotional abuse. Unfortunately, I did not catch on to BPD until my daughter was in her teens, and even armed with that knowledge, knowing the right thing to do and carrying it out is extremely difficult, because it is not just a matter of common-sense simple solutions, or just be being firm.  My wife is such a classic hermit that it seemed like the author of  “ Understanding The Borderline Mother” had followed her for years before writing the book. She was loving and very protective, if not overprotective of our daughter, so I naively had no worries that their relationship could become hurtful and toxic. However, when my daughter got into her middle school years, and my wife could not deal properly with my daughter asserting herself, things went downhill.
    You will need to set boundaries and express them to your wife about what is appropriate behavior in front of your girls.  What those boundaries are and how you express them I will have to leave to more qualified people than I to suggest. I still struggle with this and everyone’s situation is different. Your wife crossed a boundary that you reasonably didn’t expect to need to set, so you have to re-group and prepare for the next time so there isn’t a next time, or at least so it won’t be so bad.  To make things even more difficult, I think in my case a direct announcement of what the boundaries are would have been counterproductive and backfired, because she’d get defensive and/or try to test them. A more subtle approach seemed to work. In some respects, my wife seems to know some of the boundaries which were set in some unspoken way that I can’t really describe.
  Continue to do what you can to minimize your wife’s undermining of your girls’ self-esteem and sense of security. My own T told me that just one adult/parent validating a child’s self-worth makes all the difference, so you’re on the right track there. They also need validation and opportunities to succeed from other sources to compensate for what their mother is not equipped to provide. Give them every opportunity to succeed outside of the house. A good summer camp that incorporates confidence building and self-esteem or an after school program may be a good break from the drama. Sports and arts are wonderful outlets, whatever they show some promise in. My daughter was able to excel in performing arts, and that made a world of difference. It’s important though that they don’t do these things just to please their parents, let them know it’s for them to grow stronger and independent.
 I strongly recommend you read the book “Queen Bees and Wannabees” it’s not BPD related but it deals with parenting middle school and high school girls. You’re not there yet, but it’s coming fast with the oldest, so get reading. There’s a lot in there about mother-daughter relationships, which can be tough even in normal circumstances, that will be helpful for you and provide some insights. (My wife, didn’t read it because, “I don’t need books.”)

BTW, I guess this is becoming a bit of a cliché so I have been hesitating to say it these days, but  . . . Thanks for Your Service.