codependent rage

[Our abuse recovery guide]

That crossed my mind, too.

What happened to locking the bedroom door when SD26 is there? Seems like that was working.

Yes, autism spectrum is definitely a possibility. Which indicates an increased need for clarity.

I don't see anyone giving SD26 clarity on her behavior.

[GaGrl]

That crossed my mind, too.

What happened to locking the bedroom door when SD26 is there? Seems like that was working.

Yes, autism spectrum is definitely a possibility. Which indicates an increased need for clarity.

I don't see anyone giving SD26 clarity on her behavior.

[livednlearned]

This is a giant post (again). I re-read everything in this thread, trying to puzzle together what happened. Mommydoc was right that it would be helpful to tease apart the different pieces.

Where this all ended up:

* I can assert boundaries with regular people much better than I once did.
* Asserting boundaries with someone who has none takes way more effort but I am getting better there too.
* Asserting boundaries with someone who has none and who is in the family like SD26 is way harder.
* Asserting boundaries when two or more people (H and SD26) are violating my boundaries is the hardest and takes a lot of preparation and 110% commitment on my part.
* Asserting boundaries with H is complicated by dynamics with S22 – we are in a bit of a kindness prison. I also feel lulled into safety because H is so respectful of my boundaries, at least until SD26 is involved. 

But this is probably the hardest thing I learned: being flexible and helping them violate my boundaries makes me feel enraged at myself. Like I betrayed me.

When I look at why things played out the way they did, I can see how this H-SD26-LnL dynamic maps to my childhood FOO is almost a mirror image. It’s a revelation to realize the ways in which SD26 and my mother are so similar (self-absorbed, needy, waifish, childlike, perceive themselves as victims, covertly aggressive, no boundaries, socially difficult, etc).

They both use other people (my father, H) like a weapon or shield depending on what they are trying to do or get. Rage towards SD26 is definitely tangled up in rage and disgust I have towards my mother.

After SD26 left, and H said she cannot stay here more than one night, I felt relief but also guilt about putting my needs first. I know it’s unhealthy, but the thought pattern is: “See? You wanted something important and it made everyone mad. Are you happy now?”

YES.

I have to protect myself, especially if other people can’t or aren’t willing. I think that’s why I felt so angry at myself. I was dreading SD26’s visits months ago even though she was supposedly staying in a condo. Then she got here and I kept up this pretense that I can be accommodating when it comes to her. And I can’t. Or I shouldn’t be. Maybe things wouldn’t have blown up if she stayed at the condo but the overall pattern would still be there: me making things easier for her to violate my boundaries through H.

Another thing to come out of this is recognizing that H and I both have boundary issues with our bio kids. I see SD26/H issues more clearly and he sees S22/me issues more clearly. The stuff with SD26 is worse because her boundary issues are worse, but S22 and I have mom/kid boundary issues in a different way. Acknowledging that to H kind of leveled the playing field and made it easier to talk about what both of us are working on, or need help with, or can’t do.

 

we are complex beings, and feeling anger and being unnerved doesn't make you a bad person, nor does it make you petty... It makes you complex, and COMPLETE.

If it’s true that anger is often a secondary emotion, what I wanted to understand is what the primary emotions were about. I mean, I wasn’t thinking that at the time, I was just pissed. It’s a bit more clear now. I have a lot of work to do when it comes to embracing anger so I appreciate when you wrote “it makes you complex and complete.”

That wasn't the plan, from what I remember. I'd be enraged on two levels -- one, the content itself (her staying in my home), and two, the sudden/surprise change.

You're right, it wasn't the plan. The two kids were supposed to stay in the rental condo. When SS24 was hospitalized, we had to postpone his trip so only SD26 came out. It was hard for me to say, "SD26 will stay in the condo" because I knew there was a delicate balance between what was good for H (making SD26 feel good) and what was good for me, especially given what just went down with the brain surgery. In retrospect, this whole thing was probably inevitable. We needed a reminder that SD26-LnL leads to conflict, however it might get expressed.

A mature person would have a "house discussion" where everyone shares their schedules. The thought of being open with her about what I need is insurmountable.

I’m curious if what feels insurmountable for you is similar to how this stuff works for me.

When you have all that anger, am I tracking with you that the way that anger gets expressed is verbalizing and writing that you are angry with yourself? So the anger gets pointed at you, and the expression is verbal/written, and the specific way that it gets verbalized is "there's something wrong with me / I'm the problem"?

I’m actually surprised to learn how much I direct my anger back at me. Maybe this is a weakness that can sometimes be a strength? I take responsibility for my actions and learn from them and try to get better at life. A therapist told me my ability to do this is disarming. I seem to be able to separate what is mine from what is someone else's issue, even if the other person is behaving worse. It's not a bad skill, but it has a whiff of survival mechanism to it. My memories going back to childhood are filled with emotional self-sufficiency. I can’t remember being any other way. It’s probably a by-product of neglect combined with incompetent primary caregiver.

I'm curious if you putting yourself down is regulating somehow. I can identify that when I am overwhelmed beyond my limits, that I tend to mentally have an extremely dark and negative train of thought about myself, and I experience that as balancing/regulating.

Maybe? I don't know. I mostly think I painted myself in a corner when it came to expressing anger at H. But what you wrote makes sense at a deeper level. I have to think about it.

For me, my question would be related to Riv3rW0lf's question -- how do I discharge this deep anger and loathing appropriately, when life feels so profoundly unsafe everywhere?

This is what H and I now have to work through. In the years we've been together, he often says he has never been allowed to express anger. Yet, he expresses anger. Or at least more than me. When I asked him if he could remember when he last saw me angry he couldn't remember. I definitely edit my anger more than he does. This might tie into gender conditioning.

I kept cooking the other day and every time I look over my Dad is looking at me, needy

SD26 does this to me too. So does my mother. It makes me insane.

 

you had any luck trying to use humour or deflection in these moments with her?

That's my go-to when I'm regulated. All 3 step kids how I banter or whatever you want to call it. They didn’t have that growing up in a home with a BPD mother. H and I laugh a lot and that's a side of their dad that’s pretty new for them. They love it. But I lost all my footholds with this thing and nothing felt funny or lighthearted.

I’m curious if some of your anger is a result of feeling so powerless around her? Do you answer her back?

I feel powerful in some ways and powerless in others. When I began turning things around back when she lived with us, that helped me get power back. I’m not sure what you mean about answering her back. Do you mean to put her in her place? She has a habit of agreeing with H about something he is saying to me, even though there’s nothing to agree with. Like H saying, “LnL, we should get some lighter beach chairs since those other ones are ridiculously heavy.” SD26 will answer, “Yeah, get some lighter beach chairs, I know.” I now call this out. My last therapist perceived that it was about SD26 wanting to put herself on even footing as H’s spouse, to compete with me. I try to call it out. Something along the lines of, “Do you know what chairs we’re talking about?”

Sometimes I wonder if they treat us badly because we allow ourselves to be their doormats. All because we don’t want to seem rude or hurt their feelings. Often because we’re scared.

That is kind of the big takeaway for me Methuen. I’m training a puppy right now and there are so many parallels (no offense intended to my puppy). He can’t help himself so I have to be consistent to shape his behavior. With family members, we have social norms that can tie our hands, not to mention internal conditioning, so it’s harder to train them to treat us better. When I went through my 7 year estrangement with my father, it signaled to him that I was not a doormat and there was a fascinating reset but even so, each visit I have to stand my ground with all my strength.

Doesn’t anger need to be processed so it doesn’t just keep returning (as in being re-triggered?). Isn’t self-expression one way to process anger? 

I had to blow up. It was necessary and inevitable. It feels processed although who knows. Maybe I’m just getting started.

I think she went into your bedroom and bathroom because she gets something from doing that, and she knows nothing will happen.  She feels completely safe in doing this.  So why would she stop?

My hunch is that I present two problems: 1) I share an entire life with her dad, whereas she has only partial access. She feels abandoned when he and I happen to be in the bedroom or bathroom at the same time. That makes her want access. 2). I am his peer. She has to mirror spouse behaviors to have access to the same kind of conversations I have with H. You’re right that she felt safe accessing my bedroom and bathroom. I’m entirely sure that next time she visits she will make another attempt. When she lived with us, I was explicit about not coming into my bathroom or bedroom. The only thing that worked to keep her out was to lock doors.

What I don’t get is why your H doesn’t hold your boundaries?  I mean, telling her she can go in when he knows this causes you distress?  It sounds like there’s other bathrooms.  Maybe an honest chat with your H is needed when you are feeling calmer?

We definitely had that honest chat. What is new in our relationship, what wasn’t there before, is being better about checking in. We both have codependent traits. A lot can slide by in the name of codependence when there’s a lot of stress.

It sounds like you’re angry at yourself for being angry.  Have I got that right?

More like I’m angry that I let myself be hurt. Although, yes, there seems to be something about losing control through anger that makes me more angry.

[livednlearned]

There is a tendency, I think from most of us here, to blame ourselves for our trauma... We take responsibility for our emotions to such an extent, that when someone steamroll through our clear boundaries and we get triggered, we take responsibility for it because we somehow convinced ourselves that it's on us if we got triggered. How about accepting that this trauma is now part of your personality, of who you are today?

Ooof. This hit deep. You put words to something that hits a bone and made me realize something related. “I need to be who I would be if I didn’t have trauma” is definitely a narrative in my head. That's not too bad, right? Exactly what you suggest, I treat the part of me that carries trauma as something I am responsible for healing. Whatever is the other way must be close, but better. Like, here’s this trauma, let’s hold space and not rush around reacting. Holding space might mean back off, and it might mean ok, I’m ready. The important part is getting to choose. I think? They seem so close, I can see how I sort of went to the darker version where something is wrong with me and I'm responsible for creating the problem so I have to fix it. Although I know that is messed up.

I notice in your story that you... Gave her a way out? You asked her what she was doing in the bathroom... Then gave her a way out, asking her if there was something wrong with the other one. You took the blame for her. But you are not to blame, and you have every rights to be angry. And at your H too! I am angry at them just reading this !

You’re so perceptive Riv3rW0lf. I was in my office on a call when I heard her go past my door and my anger lit up like fireworks. My heart was pounding and I acted without thinking and that kind of scared me. Like how bad was this going to be, I’m supposed to drive this person to the airport, how awful is it going to be and for how long with H. All that raced through my mind. I was trying to give her something to help her make everything less of a fight.

I absolutely do believe now you will have to show legit ANGER to be heard by your H.

He hears me now. What’s interesting to me is that SD26 didn’t mention me blowing up. H said she was quiet in the car. I think she knew H would take my side. “Why were you in our bathroom? Why did you lock the bedroom door” are hard questions to answer.
H and I are both so anger averse that it doesn’t take much to have it feel like anger. Me bringing up my boundary about house guests and bathrooms is about the same as me expressing anger. Both of us have BPD in our FOO, I don’t know if that makes a difference to how we express and process anger.

To all of us, me included : THIS is the trauma we need to free ourselves from. Not being triggered, but living anger as a problem and blaming ourselves, directing our own anger at ourselves, not holding the actual abusers accountable, this is the trauma we have to clean, because this is what is keeping us in a self-abusive state, unhappy and in pain. Anger is protection : it's ok to protect ourselves, so being angry is ok. Over time, anger morphes to healthy assertion. But with some people, we do need to be really angry.

I agree with you! At the same time, for me it’s so confusing when it’s happening. It’s so confusing when there are other family dynamics making me feel like I can’t be angry, or shouldn’t be angry, or could process it a bit before delivering it. It’s kind of a baby emotion for me, one that has been so repressed that I’m just getting to understand.

My take from this is that before the next visit, you do something proactive- long before a next visit is planned, because these visits are just miserable for you.

I’m keeping this thread bookmarked (and the earlier one where I was trying to prep for the visit). H and I agree SD26 cannot stay here longer than one night. H will travel with her somewhere and there is no expectation I participate in their time together. We have something similar for visiting my mother/father. We also talked about going to marriage counseling. And we talked about how it’s harder to have boundaries when it’s your own kids. He has come a long way having boundaries with SD26 but not when it comes to boundaries, SD26, and me.

I think it's time to establish the boundary that SD26 never, NEVER, stays overnight in your house again

One night I can tolerate.

I can’t help but wonder if she feels that since it’s her dad’s house, she’s sort of “home” and not a guest, therefore she feels she can use any room she wants regardless of what rules are set or how it makes you feel.

Yes. We have a history of this from when she lived with us for 4-ish years. I worked with a therapist to reclaim my home from her. It took a while and I was successful but I did it in mostly non-verbal ways (verbal seemed to give her ammunition). I underestimated her in this new living situation where she is simply a houseguest.

I think maybe you hold yourself to high expectations regarding feelings because you recognize your role as the emotional leader. That doesn’t mean you’re not human. I think it’s natural that you felt smug that she struggled on the hike after joking about you. I also think, given the full context, that it’s natural for you cannot tolerate the tiniest bit of contact with her, especially with her in the house.

All true. Sometimes I think neutralizing her (when I lived with her) is my greatest emotional work with someone this difficult. I’m in almost no contact with uBPD brother, low contact with dysfunctional parents, no contact with uBPDx. We also had a lot of extenuating stress, H admitted he feels needier, I admit I withdrew a bit. But what you say is definitely true: I’m the emotional leader and without what I’ve learned here and in therapy (and some books), this would be another BPD shipwreck.

You are wondering why you feel bad instead of celebrating when your H says SD26 will not stay at your home again. Perhaps it is because you would be glad to have a healthy SD stay at your home if she were normal. You are not the kind of stepmother who would mistreat a step child and instead are one that would try to welcome the step children into your home. However the situation with SD26 is different and you have to protect yourself. I think a lot of us on this site go through periods of feeling bad, I know I do, about what measures we have to take to protect ourselves from disordered family members, something we would not have to do if we were dealing with more normal family members.

Zachira, I mentioned in the earlier thread about where some of the guilt comes from (like I’m responsible for ruining things and making people upset). I also think deep down, whether he says it aloud or not, he expects me to help him carry the emotional labor required to deal with her.

What action will you take when SD26 violates the boundary?

Because what I hear is that you will talk with your H. And it's not H's boundary -- unless he is willing to take it on for you.

Right now it sounds like the boundary is, "When SD26 enters my bedroom/bathroom and violates my privacy, my action will be to manage my anger but wait until she leaves, and then talk to H, who will then say she no longer stays at our house on visits, and H will then arrange for her to stay in a hotel the next time she visits...but SD26 will never know why, because no one wants to hurt her feelings."

My read on it.. how does that sound to you? How much of the action/response is you, and how much is H?

I am getting away with nothing here! I’m grateful, truly. This whole thread is a big catharsis I was probably overdue for.

Right now where things stand, SD26 can stay here for one night only. However before we sat down to talk, I thought the solution was to sit them down together at the start of the visit and say, “Only H goes in my bathroom, are we clear?” If I am in a good place next time she visits, I know I can light-heartedly say, “Hey, this is the GUEST bathroom. This one is yours. You’re our GUEST. That one is the MASTER bedroom. Everything in there is MINE.”  Then pat her on the head.

[livednlearned]

SD26 almost sounds like she might be on the autism spectrum.

SD26 almost certainly has autism. SD26 is a special ed teacher who teaches kids on the spectrum. Her last two boyfriends and current roommate: autism.

There’s a lot of autism going on. S22 has autism. SS24 has autism. I (and others) suspect my father has autism (engineer). My uBPD brother likely has autism. n/BPDx is on the spectrum.

I work in a part of academia known for high rates of autism. I work with software engineers, more autism. My business partner is autistic.

SD26 is the only one who has no boundaries and disregards when people assert them.

Yes, autism spectrum is definitely a possibility. Which indicates an increased need for clarity.
I don't see anyone giving SD26 clarity on her behavior.

H gives her a lot of clarity when it comes to transactional things. When it comes to boundaries, the drive for clarity has come mostly from me. I think SD29 (not on the spectrum) enforces boundaries in a similar way to how I do it (non-verbal), although she is not averse to being openly aggravated with SD26. The problem is that SD26 runs to uBPD mom and then SD29 is in cross-hairs. SD29 is low contact with both SD26 and her BPD mom.

That crossed my mind, too. What happened to locking the bedroom door when SD26 is there? Seems like that was working.

I did that when she lived with us, although mostly when I was in my own room.

I don't think SD26's autism is the issue. We are fluent in autism in this family. Her autism is a complexifier but having no boundaries is the BPD part.

[Methuen]

However before we sat down to talk, I thought the solution was to sit them down together at the start of the visit and say, “Only H goes in my bathroom, are we clear?” If I am in a good place next time she visits, I know I can light-heartedly say, “Hey, this is the GUEST bathroom. This one is yours. You’re our GUEST. That one is the MASTER bedroom. Everything in there is MINE.”  Then pat her on the head.

This still requires some logic. She still has to connect the dots (or accept) that the master bathroom is yours, therefore it is not hers. I'm going to go out on a limb and speculate that people who don't have boundaries don't connect those dots like we do (and completely miss the "therefore" step). It's still ambiguous.

Another suggestion for perusal:

"Here is the GUEST bathroom for your GUEST bedroom.  Bathrooms are private places with private things, and in this house we take care to respect each other's privacy.  Please only use your guest bathroom, and not my master bathroom.  Can you do that?"   It states a clear boundary AND gets a clear commitment from her before she settles in.  If she still uses your bathroom, then maybe one overnight is still too much.

[Riv3rW0lf]

At the same time, for me it’s so confusing when it’s happening. It’s so confusing when there are other family dynamics making me feel like I can’t be angry, or shouldn’t be angry, or could process it a bit before delivering it. It’s kind of a baby emotion for me, one that has been so repressed that I’m just getting to understand.

For me, and this might not be the case for you, but what makes anger especially hard to "master" is that anger was by far THE most dangerous state to be in when I was a child and living with my BPD mother.

She reacted to pain with guilt and shame. She reacted to joy with jealousy and irritability, a need to make it always less joyful. She reacted to love with coldness and control. And she reacted to anger with rage.

Being angry was dangerous for me and I learned to fear this state in myself. I learned to turn it inward against myself, to not disrupt my mother. If I was angry at myself, she wouldn't rage, she wouldn't grab and shake me, she wouldn't do those things that terrified me.

When you are a child in a dysfunctional home, being angry is dangerous.

For my daughter, being angry is already assertion, because she is free to say what she feels. When she gets angry she will scream : "JUST LISTEN TO ME". She often gets angry when she feels powerless, she is looking for words she doesn't quite have. My mother would RAGE. And I, often, stop and listen, and my daughter asserts herself, and then she is back to her regulated state... While I would be absolutely terrified.

In a safe house, anger is assertion, it comes and goes.

In a dysfunctional house, anger is dangerous, it cannot be expressed so it lingers within us, it builds... So we regulated as we could... This anger had to be expressed somehow, so we lashed out on ourselves. It's a very hard habit to break.

[livednlearned]

Methuen, you are a hero for reading through those long responses  

"Here is the GUEST bathroom for your GUEST bedroom.  Bathrooms are private places with private things, and in this house we take care to respect each other's privacy.  Please only use your guest bathroom, and not my master bathroom.  Can you do that?"   It states a clear boundary AND gets a clear commitment from her before she settles in.  If she still uses your bathroom, then maybe one overnight is still too much.

I see what you did there and yes, that's much more clear. I was being a bit facetious -- I really think when it comes to my boundaries, H and SD26 have to be handled together. I need to summon the strength to be firm about SD26 staying here. I mean, her own siblings don't like to share spaces with her. H and I have to be able to have more honest conversations about his expectations and I have to be more honest about what these visits do to me.

H has my back when it comes to my dysfunctional family and it is beyond amazing. I've never had that. However, it's like he regresses into full-blown codependence when it comes to SD26.

[livednlearned]

For me, and this might not be the case for you, but what makes anger especially hard to "master" is that anger was by far THE most dangerous state to be in when I was a child and living with my BPD mother.

There is full-blown misogyny in my family so anger was something only men could express. Men get angry for reasons. Women's anger was forbidden.

What you describe does apply with uBPD brother. Only once did I express anger and it felt insane. He was beating me pretty violently and I remember it would. not. stop. I was in my late teens and I could not believe this was still happening. I was in a relationship with someone I really cared about and had to have a whole double life about why I had bruises, why a piece of clothing was torn, why I looked flushed, why I was late, why I couldn't meet, why he couldn't come to my house. He was so normal and I was so damaged, I wanted so much to be who he saw me as. The more I liked him, the angrier uBPD brother got so he was beating me up because I was trying to get out of the house and go meet this guy. And I remember losing my mind with fury. Because what was there to lose at this point? It felt like it would never end, not just this one time but forever. Who was going to stop it? Who even cared it was happening? I look back and realize how right I was but there was still a hope that maybe I got all of this wrong and it could be explained somehow. When I fought back, it was like a demon took over and I'm not a big person so it wasn't like I sent a message don't f*@k with me. It was more like, Ok, good I got her dysregulated haha.

That's my thing with anger. It doesn't work, it makes things worse, no one who matters is listening and some people get off on stirring it up.

[Notwendy]

A combination of autism spectrum and BPD would make addressing behaviors more challenging. Is it the lack of boundaries due to BPD or not understanding social cues? My BPD mother is manipulative on a social level and one has to have strong social skills in order to do that- and one aspect of autism spectrum is a lack of that. Also, people on the spectrum tend to speak what they are thinking while one can not tell if what BPD mother says is actually true or not.

I think some of the behaviors can look the same such as the meltdowns when stressed but there seems to be a different quality to them.

You and your H both have your own bio children. I think we all have a tendency to acquiesce to our own children- and the family dynamics that come with that.

I am glad your H understands and has agreed to limit D26 to one night. I think having locks is a good approach to her going into your bedroom and bathroom.

[Riv3rW0lf]

There is full-blown misogyny in my family so anger was something only men could express. Men get angry for reasons. Women's anger was forbidden.

What you describe does apply with uBPD brother. Only once did I express anger and it felt insane. He was beating me pretty violently and I remember it would. not. stop. I was in my late teens and I could not believe this was still happening. I was in a relationship with someone I really cared about and had to have a whole double life about why I had bruises, why a piece of clothing was torn, why I looked flushed, why I was late, why I couldn't meet, why he couldn't come to my house. He was so normal and I was so damaged, I wanted so much to be who he saw me as. The more I liked him, the angrier uBPD brother got so he was beating me up because I was trying to get out of the house and go meet this guy. And I remember losing my mind with fury. Because what was there to lose at this point? It felt like it would never end, not just this one time but forever. Who was going to stop it? Who even cared it was happening? I look back and realize how right I was but there was still a hope that maybe I got all of this wrong and it could be explained somehow. When I fought back, it was like a demon took over and I'm not a big person so it wasn't like I sent a message don't f*@k with me. It was more like, Ok, good I got her dysregulated haha.

That's my thing with anger. It doesn't work, it makes things worse, no one who matters is listening and some people get off on stirring it up.

LnL, it truly is horrible...what you went through. I mean, reading this just really gets to the middle of my heart, and it's piercing, and I truly hate that you had to go through that alone.

It's sensitive, and I have no idea how I'd even begin to heal this kind of aggression you suffered.

I do understand when you say anger was not only dangerous, but also worthless, and how it was a vulnerability, since you weren't taken seriously, and because your brother enjoyed stirring it up. It makes sense.

I think, the thing with anger is, it's also not supposed to be expressed outward... I see it more like a drive for assertion and protection, a quick burst that should come and go. A connection to our inner power. And because some people are deranged, they like to crush the power of others, they like to stirr anger and make people feel worthless, just so they can feel in control. But those are psychopaths, sociopaths... And a dysregulated borderline can feel like a psychopath for sure. But with those people, abuse happens, whether you feel angry or not...

You know a low about what drives you, much more than I could ever know. I guess those aim to be words for encouragement : you aren't the LnL you were back there. You can take your power back. I understand it being confusing. In the long run, I think looking at your anger with compassion, and truly gratefulness (because this part of you wants to protect you still, she refuses to back entirely down, she is still there for you, despite all the beating she had to endure and swallow), instead of condemning it and sending it away, will help. Because if anger cannot be expressed, it lingers, morphes into resentment, and hurt itself.

I saw you beat yourself up on this very thread because you were wanted to assert yourself. You kept yourself in check, by calling it petty and wrong, never gave yourself the authorization to speak up. Those regulation tactics probably used to work to explain why bad things, that you didn't deserve, were happening to you back then, but it seems like, today, they are only making your anger out of control and hurting you. I go there too, still, at times. It's hard to learn to feel safe to be assertive; this is so very alien to us. And it's true that it doesn't work with everyone.

I think the very main thing I am trying to convey here is NOT that you should absolutely be angry and assertive all the times, and with everyone, and especially SD.

What I am trying to say is : we should not look at our anger like the problem, it's just a signal. Just a signal. And it deserves just as much compassion as pain and hurt. It deserves to be heard just as much. We cannot act on it, not always, because anger is sometimes wrong, and it is impulsive. But we do have to listen to it and give it a change to explain itself before we call it petty and wrong... because sometimes : anger IS right, and it deserves a chance to act.

Just like my DD : "Just Listen To Me!" ..and then it goes away.

[Cat Familiar]

I learned to repress my anger; it was not safe to express due to my mother, and later my ex husband, both pwBPD, who were much more adept at the vocabulary and manifestation of rage. I was no match for their cruelty.

As a result of not acquiring the skills to be fluid at communicating my anger and stuffing it for so many years in order to maintain the peace, sometimes I feel intense anger that is unrelated or an overreaction to what is going on in the moment. It’s generally due to my boundaries being crossed or feeling like my wishes and needs are entirely disregarded.

Why such extreme anger, often for insignificant things? The easy answer is that *water under the bridge* if allowed to build up, eventually will flood and destroy the bridge.

I get concerned sometimes that this anger and resentment will never go away. It’s not a feeling I enjoy and certainly not one I want to inflict upon my BPD husband, though he is typically the cause of it. As Grey Kitty (remember him?) often said, “No good will come of it.” My husband is a *professional victim* and should I confront him with anger, it’s a given that he will not only not hear my grievance, but will chalk it up as an unprovoked attack and evidence that I am unkind.

So the question is: how to express wants, needs, boundaries before anger builds up? When I’m angry, I certainly don’t have full access to the skills to communicate this in a non-blaming way. Setting ground rules during a time of peace can be triggering for a pwBPD, and often something neglected because it isn’t an issue at that moment.

L&L do you think your anger is more directed at your stepdaughter due to your history with her than at your husband? Perhaps it feels more justified to feel anger toward her than feeling angry with your husband for neglecting to enforce your reasonable boundaries and expectations about having privacy in your bedroom and bathroom.

[livednlearned]

A combination of autism spectrum and BPD would make addressing behaviors more challenging. Is it the lack of boundaries due to BPD or not understanding social cues?

It's not that people on the spectrum cannot read social cues. When my son's sensory differences are regulated and he is not in defense mode, he reads social cues just fine. My business partner (ASD) reads social cues. However, they arrive at conclusions in ways that are different than someone who is neurotypical because they use different clues.

Both S22 and my colleague experience sensory defensiveness, which makes it harder to regulate their sensory experiences compared to someone who doesn't struggle with those challenges. If sensory experiences are not regulated, then other things (like reading social cues) become harder. My son loves baseball but he tires quickly when we attend live games. He usually has to go straight home and lay down after a game. I can see autistic traits increase if we try to do too much, especially if it's a sunny day and the crowd is particularly loud (light sensitivity + sound sensitivity).

We also have a lot of double empathy going on in our families. We try to empathize with autistic perceptions and help explain neurotypical thinking. When you look at neurotypical behaviors through the eyes of someone with autism, it's pretty fascinating. Neurotypicals like us do a lot of things that don't make sense but there are fewer people with autism so their perceptions are in the minority.

I say this because SD26 is in a family that gets autism. She herself has not said anything about being on the spectrum. Years ago when H and I (and SD29) were concerned about SD26's suicidal ideation, H reached out and left a voicemail with SD26's therapist. When the therapist called back, H and I were in the car and he put her on speaker phone. The therapist mentioned autism, and said that she raised it with SD26, and that SD26 was not receptive.

Which is fine. We err on the side that she might be on the spectrum and kind of shrug whether she chooses to look into it further or not. Personally, I'm not convinced she's on the spectrum but it's hard to dismiss it entirely and we know less about how autism presents in girls than boys so that alone isn't an easy dx.

SD26 strikes me more as quiet BPD with autistic traits. If her therapist talked to family members (other than BPD mom who would say everything was all H's fault) there would be less focus on autism and more on BPD. I mean, SD26 is weird. If you met her, chances are you'd find her odd. Sometimes she seems so profoundly disassociated (thousand yard stare) I could see someone thinking, "must be autism because it's atypical."

The Coventry Grid was developed to help differentiate between ASD and attachment disorders in children and when I think of SD24's behaviors, she presents much more like someone suffering from attachment disorder/BPD than ASD, at least in the classic sense, if there is such a thing.

My BPD mother is manipulative on a social level and one has to have strong social skills in order to do that- and one aspect of autism spectrum is a lack of that. Also, people on the spectrum tend to speak what they are thinking while one can not tell if what BPD mother says is actually true or not.

Some people with autism lack those skills. Not all. My son's autism includes "extreme demand avoidance" and he has a "hierarchy of avoidance approaches" of which many could be called manipulative (distraction, making excuses, changing the topic, procrastination, physical excuses, etc.). He is a master at social manipulation except the purpose is to avoid panic attacks and being put in situations he feels unprepared for.

SD26 is complex, no question. Of all the books I've read, the one that helped the most is In Sheep's Clothing, a book about managing people who are covertly aggressive. Whereas books or sites about autism help me a lot to understand and support my kid, SS24, my colleagues with autism.

So idk.

If issues with SD26 were about different ways of processing information, those skills don't seem to work with her.