2 week fight, so far

[Seekerintime]

I appreciate the opportunity to reach out to others having faced this similar to my experience. 

My SO has not been diagnosed BPD, she has been with cPTSD and our couples therapist is the person who recommended I read Stop Walking on Eggshells. 

I later asked her straight up if she thought I was BPD or narcissistic as that's the one my SO usually tags me with.  Therapist said no to both of those and basically told me that she finds me to be depressed and have savior syndrome, needing to save people.  I also strongly believe that I suffer from emotional neglect as a child which impacts me greatly. 

Two weeks ago SO said something that immediately had my adrenaline fight or flight reflex ignite, it's stupid and minor bit put of nowhere she asked me "have I done something wrong?"   Simple, right? Not threatening at all?  All I know is my entire system went into panic.  I believe this is due to numerous fights over the last 3 years and how many times I've heard that or similar in that tone.  I was literally sitting and drinking coffee either looking at the scenery or listening to the birds.  I had no idea that anything was wrong at all, let alone her having done anything.  I can remember my hands shaking and I still answered No.  She followed with "your vibe is off and you are purposefully closing your eyes so you don't have to look at me"   this set my confusion to maximum because she was behind me at the time she asked the question, getting something out of the parked car.  I explained that I was just drinking coffee and listening to the birds.  I'm sure my voice was doing something, I get a bit of the adrenaline response right now just writing this.  Panic.  Here I did said something I shouldn't, she asked if I needed space (I should have said yes) I said, no, I just don't want to be questioned. 

She stormed off, slammed the camper door and (I later learned) walked up to the house, maybe a quarter mile between camper and house.  I believe I spent the next several hours in a mostly dissociative state punctuated by feeling like there was nothing I can do, I was afraid of checking the camper (I hadn't seen her go in I just had heard the door) as that would be disturbing her privacy, I couldn't leave the camper myself for fear it would be seen as abandoning her if she were inside.  Apparently I was in that state for something like 5 or 6 hours.  I hardly remember time passing at all.

I did go back to the house, she was there, with a look of just scorn? Hatred? My brain wasn't in a rational place in any case, I know that now.  I said something like "you've been here the whole time?" Which she says I said angrily, so that's probably true.  We are clearly both elevated and neither of us are really in control.  She said something like "I don't need your anger, f*** off" 

That was 2 weeks ago, nothing I do is right, nothing helps.  Talking, not talking.  Explaining certainly doesn't help at all.  Speaking face to face I never get a chance to be heard at all.  She will cut me off, talk over me etc constantly.  She asks questions and never stops to hear answers.  She interprets motives in everything I do that have absolutely nothing to do with my actual motivations.  She seems to be actively making up alternate events in real time and can't hear me at all. 

Several days into this round she had moved out of our bedroom to a spare room.  She came to our bedroom door and said "I'm scared to talk to you, I'm scared to ask you a question" then proceeded with exactly this: "where are you comfortable with me sleeping?"  Now I wanted her with Me, of course, but she makes a point of telling me that she chooses very carefully what to say to me.  This has been a major point for a whole, how closely she feels she needs to watch her words.  So I don't answer immediately with "I want you here" because that isn't what she's asking.  I also remember flashing to the previous day? 2 days ago? Saying that she has felt that I was angry because she wasn't in the bedroom when I woke up.  I've never said anything like that, but I'm concerned that she will think I'm mad at her for sleeping in the spare bedroom.  So I answered "I'm comfortable with you sleeping here, but if you don't want to, it's ok."   She walks off saying "I don't know how I screwed that up" and I'm honestly thinking that she is going to make a cup of tea and come back and maybe the whole fight thing will go away.  But no, she sends me a text ranting a little and saying that she can't remember what she said.  So I replied, telling her exactly what was said.  She denies it all, she claims she asked a different question and never heard me say anything about being comfortable with her in our bedroom.   I do go through the "am I remembering wrong?" phase but I know what I know about this one and so little time passed I'm sure.  She has been using that interpreted dismissal of her against me for 2 weeks.  A thing that never happened.   I have apologized for everything I said wrong or did wrong while in my own dissociative state, I need to keep working on that.  But I can't apologize for something I didn't do, not any more, it's too soul draining.  I told her what I actually said, there are text messages from me within 15 minutes of the event telling her that I want her to be with me.  She just says that u should have said that in the first place and holds the whole thing against me.  I can't imagine a better answer to the question she asked soo...I'm just screwed, no way out, trapped and dismissed.

Now we are both in a ridiculous stranglehold of not being able to meet each other.  Last night she came to the bedroom door and asked to talk a bit.  I turned off the TV and listened.  She said that she loves me but is having a really hard time and just needs to handle things.  Something like that.  I said ok, yeah it's okay, no problem.  I don't think I said I love you too, that's bad for sure.  I had a terrible night, couldn't sleep and just had repeated flashbacks to fights and screaming.   I found myself startled awake several times in a half afraid vocalization, not screaming terror but something that was headed that way.   

This morning she calls me and first thing asked how I was doing.  I was honest and said not great I had a terrible night.  A little while later she asks if she can come sit with me.  I was reading a boom on the couch having my morning coffee. I said ok and she comes and sits behind and beside me so that I can't see her from where I am, I am on a couch with an open seat right next to me, but she sat behind me instead.  She starts off very nice, wanting to help, soft, expressing how hard a time she is having.  I try to talk to her about some of what had me off kilter but started to realize that all of her statements were about her, she wasn't picking up on me at all.  She was loving for me to comfort her or something like that.  It had started as help me but became help her.  One of us started to get agitated, I can remember her voice rising and tone sharpening but she says she was reacting to me,so who knows?  She left which was an improvement over just getting more and more angry.

As I calmed down I sent her an email (no text because she has blocked our text channels)  I thanked her for talking to me, repeated that I'd had a terrible night and sorry I was off.  I sent another email just trying to let her know that I appreciated her willingness and spoke about my confusion and a variety of things. 

All that landed well apparently because she sent an email back that was pleasant.   Unfortunately I had gone up to play some computer games with am online friend and didn't see her email.  She sent another and another, each one more frantic than the last, losing the pleasant character entirely with the last just being "whatever"   I only found out about any of this when she came up stairs, had me take off my headphones, mute the microphone then she proceeds to accuse me of talking to another woman, that someone had told her I was doing that, starts talking about me wanting her out of the house, divorce etc etc.   I have absolutely no idea why she'd be that incensed about the email I'd sent her.  Apparently she felt completely dismissed because I hadn't answered her emails and that I was laughing and having fun with a friend. 

I don't have the slightest idea what to do.  She started this morning offering to make me breakfast and just a couple hours later is accusing me of talking to another woman and wanting to kick her out of the house.  Because I was laughing with a friend?  She stormed out of the house, driving far too fast on a gravel road left for 3 hours.  Turned off her location tracking (shared location in Google maps which we've had for years) and just disappeared for 3 hours. Just came back as I was half way through this note. 

Anyway, how's that for a first post?  Sorry for the extent, I'm just stressed out from 2 weeks of fighting and 3 years of fighting and I'm not sure there is any point in trying to keep this going.  But.  Of course.  I love her and she is the most amazing woman I've ever been with.  Biggest heart.  Strongest soul.  The best ... and worst relationship I've ever been in

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[kells76]

Hi Seekerintime, welcome  glad you found us and can land here and catch your breath after everything you've been through.

I could really feel the stress and tension in your story. Two weeks of fighting would have anyone on edge, no question. During the three years, I think I read, that you've been together, is this the "biggest" fight so far? What were things like earlier on?

Good to hear you have a couples counselor, especially one savvy enough to recommend SWOE. Do you have a session coming up soon?

I'm wondering if you work outside the home? Just thinking of that nonstop anxiety at home makes me wonder how we can get you some time to let go, even for an hour or so, even at work.

While there's so much more to chat about, I need to wrap it up here -- but wanted you to know that we see your post and you're not alone.

Again, welcome;

kells76

[Seekerintime]

We've been together 6 years, the first 3 were pretty great, then we moved and started covid became a couple isolated together with no outside connections.  I work from home and she was starting a new business from home as well. 

Good times are the best of my life. 

The fights keep getting worse, longer, more intense.

She stopped going to the couples therapist around the last big fight.  I went a bit on my own and then stopped.  I stopped seeing my therapist as I felt a lot of the problems came from me expressing my emotions which the therapist was saying was OK, healthy. 

I have an appointment with my therapist next Tuesday

[kells76]

Hey, thanks for the update and filling in some details.

We've been together 6 years, the first 3 were pretty great, then we moved and started covid became a couple isolated together with no outside connections.  I work from home and she was starting a new business from home as well. 

Other stories I've read here seem to track with your experience -- the start of the relationship is like an 11/10, things are going generally great (though perhaps with some red flags), and then, when a big stressor hits (or multiple stressors at once), the intense conflict seems to be triggered.

As BPD traits and behaviors can be more clearly seen and expressed the closer the relationship, it's not surprising that once you started to get essentially a 24/7 experience of your SO, things ramped up.

Good times are the best of my life. 

The fights keep getting worse, longer, more intense.

Yes. The "highs" of a BPD relationship can be the best thing you've ever felt, while the "lows" can be below your other worst experiences. In a way, that's the disorder showing up. pwBPD struggle with what I've heard described as "harmfully intense, widely varying emotions". It's difficult for pwBPD to regulate emotions healthily. When there's a relationship partner involved, that partner sometimes goes along on the roller coaster ride.

While difficult, what many members here on Bettering are working through doing is -- declining to ride the roller coaster with the SO. It's a key question; how do you accept that the partner you love has huge emotional variation, without joining in. As counterintuitive as it sounds, sometimes when the non-BPD partner works on themselves to get some distance from "hitching their wagon" to the pwBPD's varying emotions, that can get the relationship a little more stable. Lots to talk through and unpack there, for sure.

She stopped going to the couples therapist around the last big fight.  I went a bit on my own and then stopped.  I stopped seeing my therapist as I felt a lot of the problems came from me expressing my emotions which the therapist was saying was OK, healthy.

Was that your T, or the couples T, saying that you expressing your emotions was OK?

Did the two T's ever talk with each other?

And did you stop seeing your T because you felt like your T wasn't "getting it" -- i.e., your T is saying "yes, express those emotions", and you're thinking, "that only makes it worse"... is that close, or off base?

I have an appointment with my therapist next Tuesday

OK, good to hear. Getting outside 3rd party professional support is so critical to navigating relationships with pwBPD.

Speaking of support, I'm curious if you have family or friends who you feel you can trust. Any of them know what's going on in your relationship?

...

Just a couple more questions to help me get your picture:

-So you both work from home -- what kinds of things get you out of the house? Groceries? Errands? Other? Again, just looking for some moments when you know you'll be alone, to give your nervous system a break.

and

-Obviously you have a lot of moving parts in this conflict -- being together basically 24/7, your stress response, her blame/interpretation of your intentions, the way the argument just. keeps. going...

What would you say your top concern is? I.e., circularity of the argument, length of the argument, her blame, other...?

...

As you settle in here, if you find yourself with some down time to poke around the site, consider checking out our threads on Managing Conflict -- there are a few that seemed like they might touch on what you're going through, maybe including Stopping Circular Arguments. Anyway, if you want, take a look and let us know what resonates with you.

Looking forward to hearing back from you, whenever works. We're here for you;

kells76

[Seekerintime]

Kells76 thank you for your response, sorry for the delay. 

Things got even more heated and she started screaming I want a divorce over and over and get away from me, so I got in the car a left, drove 1000 miles away, yeah I can be a bit reactive.

While driving she sent probably a dozen emails, apologizing, wanting to get back into therapy etc etc.  I did let her know where I was and that I was OK etc.  We've managed to rebalance over the phone enough that for me anyway the majority if the tension has dispersed.  However I've been away from home for 3 more days after the drive and am returning home tomorrow.  Who knows how that will go?  We will see.

I can't figure out how to quote your questions on my phone so I'm just going to answer here:

It's the similarity to other people's posts that got me to write mine in the first place, seeing very similar stories to my own experience and really the only place I've seen that.  Thank you to everyone who is sharing!

I know I have my own triggers and get out of whack myself, drawn onto the roller coaster.  Fleeing the home was me jumping off and it has definitely helped me and got her out of her cycle of basically just saying "I have PTSD, it's not my fault!" More into her saying "it's my (her) responsibility to fix this."   So I think that is positive.

Regarding therapists: it was my therapist telling me that it is ok to express my feelings.  I actually had a session with T later when I said that this was causing more problems and we kind of shared a moment of "oh, I'm telling you it is ok and it isn't"   T shifted to, it's ok to talk about it here and at least have someone hear you.  The couples T when I met them by myself basically told me that my wife just can't hear me at all, can't recognize the pain she is causing me and sort of hinted that she may never be able to really see or hear me.  This actually helps me better understand, it isn't that my wife is being stubborn or difficult, she CAN'T hear me.  So what I've been doing is yelling at a deaf person, they have no idea I'm yelling at all. 

Wife has agreed to and is working on re-engaging our couples T, so good!  I have my meeting with my T the day after I get home, so good!

The two Ts have cross communicated but I have no knowledge of exactly what was said, I might bring that up in my solo session.  I hate these 1 hour sessions, I have 12 hours of stuff! 

I have no family or friends to really engage in this, however, when I drove 1000 miles away I took the opportunity, with my wife's knowledge, of visiting her grandmother who helped raise her when her mother was drunk and gone.  She had some good insights and is a lovely human being and helpful. 

We have in the past structured very little alone time, that is something I think we will need to change.  One problem that came up was me taking a mental break and getting online with a friend and playing a video game together.  I dropped into the pure PLAY of that, chatting and laughing.  Wife heard this and got super mad: accusing me of dismissing her and having a good time with someone else and Is this a Woman?  Someone told me you were connecting with another woman!   

I think my biggest problem is the blaming and accusing: assigning motives to my behavior that have nothing to do with my own thoughts and then insisting that she is right about my motives and I'm just lying or making things up.  That's the gaslighting that just drives me nuts.  I'm guessing this falls into the "she CAN'T hear me thing"  and she really cannot accept my statements at all, they simply don't get heard at all.  It certainly feels that way.  And I'm a very logic and reason driven person, always have been, so my brain goes into: here is a perfectly logical way to see this, how can it not make sense?  But she's 100% emotion at this point and nothing makes sense. 

I want to find a way to stop the cycle as soon as i see it coming.  This is one of the first things I told our couples T: I need a way to stop the train before it leaves the station and gets into runaway.  I still have not gotten a workable solution for this.  I kind of want a Yellow Card and a Red Card, when it seems like things are headed sideways, Pull Out the Yellow Card and just each of us walk away and regroup.  If the Yellow doesn't work, go to Red.  Has anyone tried something like this?  Like agreeing to it while everyone is calm and actually executing in the moment?

Thank you for directing me to the forum topics, that will be useful.  There is SOO much on here it is overwhelming to approach, like I'm doing another thesis for a masters degree in psychology

[Smedley Butler]

whoo boy, ok here goes.  first off, you're in my almost exact situation just slightly behind me in terms of discovery and learning.  literally, your original post on this thread has been the majority of my twelve year marriage.  on and off the crazy train, replaying conversations in my head, thinking i was the crazy one, trying to understand how what i did with "X" intention or motive was so badly misconstrued by my wife as "Y" intention or motive, etc etc etc ad nauseum.  you have JADEd yourself into a tizzy, my brother.  if you dont know what that is yet, just google "JADEing" - but it's "justify, argue, defend, explain", and it's the lifeblood of a borderline.  you, in good faith that you are trying to solve problems, understand, and reach conclusions have JADEd yourself into oblivion, just like I did in my marriage.  so in response to your last post:

I want to find a way to stop the cycle as soon as i see it coming.  This is one of the first things I told our couples T: I need a way to stop the train before it leaves the station and gets into runaway.  I still have not gotten a workable solution for this.  I kind of want a Yellow Card and a Red Card, when it seems like things are headed sideways, Pull Out the Yellow Card and just each of us walk away and regroup.  If the Yellow doesn't work, go to Red.  Has anyone tried something like this?  Like agreeing to it while everyone is calm and actually executing in the moment?

you gotta stop trying to rationalize your actions to a person who is, by definition, not rational.  every sane and reasonable explanation you give her will be met with ten more completely irrational accusations, all of which you will try to rationalize to her with equally irrational responses - it's a black hole of crazy.  the way to stop it before it starts is to STOP JADEING IMMEDIATELY.

my goodness though, this:

I think my biggest problem is the blaming and accusing: assigning motives to my behavior that have nothing to do with my own thoughts and then insisting that she is right about my motives and I'm just lying or making things up.  That's the gaslighting that just drives me nuts.  I'm guessing this falls into the "she CAN'T hear me thing"  and she really cannot accept my statements at all, they simply don't get heard at all.  It certainly feels that way.  And I'm a very logic and reason driven person, always have been, so my brain goes into: here is a perfectly logical way to see this, how can it not make sense?  But she's 100% emotion at this point and nothing makes sense.

is something i could have written myself six months ago.  i have learned that i just cant take these accusations and blaming seriously.  if she tells me she "feels" like i just got back from a mass murder spree up and down the eastern seaboard or that she "feels" like i didnt actually go to work today and instead that i flew to Canada to meet up with some woman i'm have an affair with, i just tell her "i understand you feel that way, and i'm sure that's hard" and then i go back to whatever i was doing.

the real question that you have to ask yourself is whether or not that is the life you want.  i choose to endure it because i am staying in the marriage for my young children.  you need to ask yourself some tough questions and you need to consider that if THIS is true:

and worst relationship I've ever been in

then this MAY not actually be true (maybe it is...but just consider):

she is the most amazing woman I've ever been with.  Biggest heart.  Strongest soul.

[Smedley Butler]

Wife has agreed to and is working on re-engaging our couples T, so good!  I have my meeting with my T the day after I get home, so good!

i also want to add that unless your couples therapist is fully read-in and believes or knows your wife to be a borderline, you can anticipate couples therapy to be, at best, inconclusive.  for me and my wife it almost always led to even worse fights (this was before i realized she was a borderline).  just something to consider - borderlines are master manipulators, and that includes manipulating unsuspecting couples therapists who, through no real fault of their own, are just unknowingly in WAY over their pay grade, even if they have the best of intentions. 

[Seekerintime]

Smedley, thank you for sharing your experience with me.

There is a huge part of me that can't walk away, it's constantly reminding me that I love this person, that I can't leave her alone, she deserves some kind of happiness, someone to be there for her when nobody has ever been there for her.  I don't think I could live with myself if I went that direction.  I know there is also a selfish and weak part of myself that believes it is this relationship or none, but even inside that the thought of moving forward alone or even worse, finding someone else, gives me terrible self images of abandonment and inflicted pain.

We made it from Monday night to Saturday afternoon in sync and doing well considering the intensity of the fight that had me fleeing our home last Thursday. I went to my therapist, she had a scheduled tele-health appointment at the same time.  Turns out, she didn't do hers, rescheduled,  supposedly.

Unfortunately I set her off again, we made a plan to run errands in the city, about 2 hours from home.  I brought her grandson back with me when I drove home and he needed some things and my wife wanted to connect with some people and I needed to get my motorcycle out of service.  While we were doing errands wife needed to go see someone in a salon. I drove is over there, it's in a commercial area, pedestrian walks and lots of different stores.  Walked her, the dog, and grandson over to the salon. She goes in, the rest of us are standing out in 100+ Temps, so I send her an sms saying that in going to walk a bit and asked her to let me knew when she was done. 

Turns out she had forgotten her phone in the car, didn't get my message at all, came out of the salon and freaked out that I wasn't waiting there. Apparently she had her abandonment trigger go off so hard that she was on the verge of crying.  I get that this is a real reaction and that it is traumatic and it was caused by me not being there when she came out of the salon.  I never expect this one, she's a 50+ year old woman and I never can imagine feeling that shock of abandonment from something this minor. 

That was it for the day, accusations, attacks, distancing, silent treatment, etc etc.  It's the next morning now and she's upset, accusing, blaming, self blaming, calling herself names, etc. I'm trying to stop myself being dragged in but have no idea how.  When she apologized for everything and said that she felt like PLEASE READ about having such a string reaction, I tried bent present without doing anything, tried being supportive, tried suggesting that she talk to her therapist the same way she is talking to me, eventually when she apologized I said thank you.  She stormed off saying "thank you for being a pile of PLEASE READ, that's great, I guess I'm PLEASE READ" etc etc

There is no way for me to proceed again. So now I'm in complete chaos, no ability to approach her, no ability to get my life going.  I feel continuously like there is just no stability anywhere.  I never feel stable enough to take a step