How to deal with isolation?

[FarDrop77]

A few months ago my wife was saying my mom was bullying and suspected her of having dementia, so I started talking with one of my aunts about it, mainly because I wanted to get perspective from other family members if it was true.  I didn't mention that my wife was also asking for a divorce, but this conversation opened up other issues, and I started occasionally talking to this aunt about my wife's suspected bpd.

For the past month my wife has been back into her "white" phase - a month of I love you's, baked treats, surprise gifts, and telling me how she wants to retire together in a beautiful beach town somewhere.  But she's also been having headaches, dizziness, and seeing bright lights, so her neurologist prescribed a migraine medication and instructed her not to drive for 8 weeks while they evaluate whether the medication works.

Then yesterday my aunt sent me a message asking how we were doing.  I told her about how my wife had reverted to her former (cheerful, happy) self and how surreal it felt, and about her migraines.  My aunt has had migraines her whole life so she sent me a pdf about an elimination diet that helped her to relieve them.  I forwarded this on to my wife, thinking her mood had been elevated enough that she could probably handle it.

Unfortunately I was wrong, but she didn't split right away.  It was like sometime late in the night she started thinking about it, decided she was upset, and sat upright, in bed, in the dark, staring into space, and refused to tell me what was bothering her.  Then this morning when I was supposed to drive her to gym and our son to summer school, she refused.  She said, "I don't have migraines.  There is nothing wrong with me.  Don't tell other people things about me unless you don't want me to tell YOU things about me."  I said I was sorry and she drove off.

I think it was unwise of me to forward her my aunt's food list - since this let my wife know I had talked to my aunt about her - but was it wrong for me to talk to my aunt?  Against my wife's advice I called my aunt and explained this whole thing.  My wife refuses to talk about therapy - just the mention of it makes her split - but my aunt suggested that I go myself.  I'm honestly scared of how my wife would react.  The last time I sought therapy she really didn't like it, and it was kind of a minefield trying to avoid her questions about what we talked about in there.  I expect that if talking to my aunt about migraines upsets her this much, talking to a therapist about her bpd would have an even worse effect (to say nothing if she ever found this website and read my posts here).  I can't go to therapy "in secret" because I work from home and it'd be obvious that I'd left the house.

My aunt suggested I look into telehealth therapy.  If I put on my headphones and close the office door that might work.

My question is, is this usual, and how do others cope?  Do most partners of pwBPDs carry on "secret" discussions with friends and family, seeking therapy, etc?  Oftentimes I feel like these secret conversations are the only genuine ones in my life, as if the rest of the time my wife is playing an elaborate game of "pretend", with its own bizarre rules, and I'm playing it with her.

The main ratchet in the gears is that our child is severely physically disabled and I don't think either one of us can take care of him on our own.  So everything I do is to keep it stable for his sake.  It's so hard.

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[Pook075]

Hi Fardrop.  I'm sorry you're going through this and so much resonated with me- we actually picked out our retirement beach town a little over a year ago, got the house ready to sell, then my wife left a few months later after splitting and discarding me completely.  I completely understand how much that hurts.

For the rest of your story, it is perfectly normal to talk to relatives about family health problems.  Likewise, it is perfectly normal for an aunt to have advice.  My wife also had frequent migraines and we tried dozens of things.  I am convinced that they came from stress when she was depressed or splitting, and no modern cure was going to fix them.

As far as how to cope, check out the threads along the top of this website- better communication makes a huge difference in avoiding those situations.  I'll let others pitch in with direct advice since this is one of the hardest aspects of a BPD marriage.  Good luck brother!

[FarDrop77]

Hi Fardrop.  I'm sorry you're going through this and so much resonated with me- we actually picked out our retirement beach town a little over a year ago, got the house ready to sell, then my wife left a few months later after splitting and discarding me completely.  I completely understand how much that hurts.

For the rest of your story, it is perfectly normal to talk to relatives about family health problems.  Likewise, it is perfectly normal for an aunt to have advice.  My wife also had frequent migraines and we tried dozens of things.  I am convinced that they came from stress when she was depressed or splitting, and no modern cure was going to fix them.

As far as how to cope, check out the threads along the top of this website- better communication makes a huge difference in avoiding those situations.  I'll let others pitch in with direct advice since this is one of the hardest aspects of a BPD marriage.  Good luck brother!

Thank you. I'm reading the threads at the top now.  I feel like I have a lot of learning to do before these kinds of skills become automatic for me.

[kells76]

Hi again FarDrop77;

Thank you. I'm reading the threads at the top now.  I feel like I have a lot of learning to do before these kinds of skills become automatic for me.

We all did -- the tools and skills for "turning down the heat" with a pwBPD aren't intuitive. It was on the order of years (vs days or months) for my H to pivot from JADE-ing emails with his kids' mom (uBPD) to BIFF emails. One difference between your situation and ours, though, is that I think my H struggled with being too overwhelmed to be motivated to learn and apply the tools and skills consistently and frequently. For you, you're here, you're posting, and you're open to learning a new approach -- so it doesn't necessarily have to take years for you to have those tools be intuitive and reflexive. We're a good group to practice on  

It's hard when your BPDw is in pain and struggling (migraines), and you'd like to make things better for her. In a generally normal relationship, what you did would probably have worked -- telling your spouse "hey, my aunt told me to try XYZ for migraines, what do you think?". Like you discovered, that went over like the proverbial lead balloon with your W. Interesting that it seemed to have tipped her towards paranoia/isolation vs anger/shame -- i.e., the sticking point with her was "you're talking to someone else about me! Don't talk to other people!" vs "I don't have migraine problems! I'm perfect, you're the problem!"

While difficult, one general approach you could consider is that trying to help a pwBPD in a "normal" way often blows up, whether in a paranoia direction, a shame direction, an anger direction, or some other inappropriate response. pwBPD often feel core shame, and so offers to help can hit that sore spot -- they may feel "less than", or mocked ("you're so inept"), or ganged up on, or any number of shame/anger/etc responses. I wonder how things might go if instead of offering to help, you "left a door open" for your W to choose if she were so inclined -- saying something like "I really care about your health... it seems like the migraines are so hard on you... if you ever want me to research ideas to help you, just let me know". Then, it's up to her to take action to accept the help, or to hold her own responsibility for her health. Maybe that could be a way for you to step out of the Karpman drama triangle "persecutor" role that she seems to put you in.

Bigger picture, though, with individual counseling --

What do you think the worst-case scenario would be, if you announced (not asked her, or hoped to be allowed to do, or requested if you could!) that you were getting individual therapy?

Do you feel like you're in a place where you could field that?

Often, pwBPD say all kinds of over-the-top stuff as they regulate their wildly varying emotions. Could you handle what she might say or do and let that wave crash on its own? Do you think she would truly follow through on any threats she might make?

Many members here have had a SO who was controlling over various aspects of their lives -- seeing family, talking to coworkers, personal hygiene... the list goes on and on. And many of those members have been able to kindly yet firmly hold personal boundaries about non-negotiables, knowing that their SO will likely have an extinction burst (and being ready for it), because things like -- seeing ill parents, having work discussions with coworkers, taking showers, drinking coffee alone or first, going to work at all, getting counseling... those areas of life became the bottom line for many members. They, too, had to face the question of -- I'm no longer willing to try to appease my SO by not talking to my family. Can I handle what may come next, as I live out my values?

Not easy questions, especially when you have your son in the mix. What you can know from this, though, is that other members here have been able to stand up for themselves in those areas, and despite the uncomfortableness of their pwBPD's reactions, they have been able to persevere. Not easy, but doable!

Lots of food for thought --

kells76

[once removed]

couples do vary in the things they share; what they share, and whom with. some are more private than others. it is fairly common to have some arguing about this, because everyone differs when it comes to what they consider private.

there are lots of medical conditions that not everyone might want everyone else knowing about. maybe theyre embarrassing, maybe theyre very serious, maybe theyre just exhausting and the person with the condition doesnt want to explain them.

migraines are a curious choice to be private about. the underlying issue is almost certainly bigger and broader, but one clue is that she is very self conscious (not surprising for someone with bpd traits) about others perceptions of her.

its hard to say, from reading, what that bigger and broader issue is, but i see two of them as it directly relates to your relationship.

the first is a breakdown in trust. you have your wife (reasonably or unreasonably) asking that you "dont tell other people things" about her. meanwhile, youre doing exactly that (the subject matter is generally reasonable, doing it against her expressed wishes, not so much).

the issue is not so much about who is right or wrong here (you both be "right" and "wrong"), but a breakdown in trust and communication. its an indicator that this is the sort of thing to work to get on the same page with your wife about, if possible.

what i would do is revisit the conversation in a time of calm, as an opener. i might apologize again, and let her know i was thinking about it, and wanted to talk more about it. my goal would be twofold. i would want to listen, and get a sense of where shes coming from about this. is the issue about something more, something bigger? is it about who you told (does she have a beef with your aunt and/or other family members?)? is it about what you told (its an odd choice of words that she considers migraines to be "something wrong" with her, but my dad was sort of that way, and he didnt have bpd)? is it about her general distrust of you, and/or being talked about to others? this is important to know. you may need to read between the lines to get at whats underlying it.

but i would also want to get clear, as a couple, on what our boundaries are, and what interdependent values they are based on. does she really mean dont tell others anything about her? what things are okay, and what things aren't okay, for us as a couple. and then i would live by them (assuming that we agreed), with two exceptions i think are ethical: a therapist, and this anonymous support group.

which brings me to the subject of therapy:

my aunt suggested that I go myself.  I'm honestly scared of how my wife would react.

walking on eggshells (something we have all found ourselves doing) ultimately breeds resentment and distrust on both sides. its not sustainable for a relationship, bpd or otherwise.

thats not to say go to therapy, or dont go to therapy, but to say that you cannot live ruled by fear (and what is also really your wifes fear).

spouses certainly have a say in the activities of their spouse, but therapy, and support, are needs. i think its understandable to be a little self conscious of the idea - if i knew my spouse was in therapy, discussing me, id certainly wonder, and id want to present my side! - but thats bpd; taking those kinds of things to extremes.

ultimately, if going to therapy ends your marriage, then your marriage would either end over something else, or survive in misery until it doesnt. thats how i think you should consider some of these things, when it comes to walking on eggshells. im not saying change everything over night, or rock the boat, or bite off more than you can chew too quickly - any relationship can be threatened by too much change - but as a general way to look at it.

I can't go to therapy "in secret"
...
telehealth therapy.  If I put on my headphones and close the office door that might work.
...
Do most partners of pwBPDs carry on "secret" discussions with friends and family,

these are exceptional relationships, for sure, and arguments can be made on a case by case basis either way, but in general, secrecy is bad for a relationship, and an indicator of a larger breakdown in trust.

i think what im getting at is that our opinions on who is in the right or wrong in what given example are sort of irrelevant. what may be true, or necessary, or right, or wrong, for one couple or one person, may be different for everyone (for example, you could either make the case that you should tell your wife if you enter therapy, or that its frankly none of her business given the circumstances).  

the question about these things is ultimately about what is right for you personally (i would include what is right for the two of you as a couple, but if you may be faced with a divorce, whats right for you may preclude whats right for her).

which is a values question. take stock of what your personal values, and your interdependent values are. let them guide you.

[FarDrop77]

]

Interesting that it seemed to have tipped her towards paranoia/isolation vs anger/shame -- i.e., the sticking point with her was "you're talking to someone else about me! Don't talk to other people!" vs "I don't have migraine problems! I'm perfect, you're the problem!"

She did say she didn't have migraines in addition to saying not to talk to other people.  But she doesn't always deny health issues ... often she seems to enjoy telling people about them. 

I wonder how things might go if instead of offering to help, you "left a door open" for your W to choose if she were so inclined -- saying something like "I really care about your health... it seems like the migraines are so hard on you... if you ever want me to research ideas to help you, just let me know". Then, it's up to her to take action to accept the help, or to hold her own responsibility for her health. Maybe that could be a way for you to step out of the Karpman drama triangle "persecutor" role that she seems to put you in.

Yeah, I have been trying to do that more.  I'm hoping I eventually build muscle memory.

Bigger picture, though, with individual counseling --

What do you think the worst-case scenario would be, if you announced (not asked her, or hoped to be allowed to do, or requested if you could!) that you were getting individual therapy?

Do you feel like you're in a place where you could field that?

Often, pwBPD say all kinds of over-the-top stuff as they regulate their wildly varying emotions. Could you handle what she might say or do and let that wave crash on its own? Do you think she would truly follow through on any threats she might make?

Many members here have had a SO who was controlling over various aspects of their lives -- seeing family, talking to coworkers, personal hygiene... the list goes on and on. And many of those members have been able to kindly yet firmly hold personal boundaries about non-negotiables, knowing that their SO will likely have an extinction burst (and being ready for it), because things like -- seeing ill parents, having work discussions with coworkers, taking showers, drinking coffee alone or first, going to work at all, getting counseling... those areas of life became the bottom line for many members. They, too, had to face the question of -- I'm no longer willing to try to appease my SO by not talking to my family. Can I handle what may come next, as I live out my values?

Not easy questions, especially when you have your son in the mix. What you can know from this, though, is that other members here have been able to stand up for themselves in those areas, and despite the uncomfortableness of their pwBPD's reactions, they have been able to persevere. Not easy, but doable!

Lots of food for thought --

kells76

I guess it varies... Mostly, I worry so much for my son and just want to keep it together enough for him to reach adulthood without shattering his world. Then there is a part of me that still thinks about all the good times and doesn't want to think about how much was a fantasy, and the thought of losing it feels like a nightmare and makes me instinctively try to appease her to keep it intact.  Then there is this kind of self-preservation voice saying to just give up, let her get upset and do what she threatens  (leave me and take my son).  But in a way I already did that and nothing happened - no divorce paperd appeared and she seemed to forget about it.  So maybe you are right and getting therapy would be the same.

[waverider]

She has taken it back to first base. Not that you were discussing migraines but rather "why" you were talking to your aunt in the first place about her. From here her paranoia went rampant and jumped to the conclusion your were probably criticising her, which in effect is true.

If you wanted to broach this issue better something like "hey my aunt gets a lot of migraines do you want me to ask if she has any handy tips?". Its not about the subject, its about who is controlling it

[Link]

My question is, is this usual, and how do others cope?  Do most partners of pwBPDs carry on "secret" discussions with friends and family, seeking therapy, etc?  Oftentimes I feel like these secret conversations are the only genuine ones in my life, as if the rest of the time my wife is playing an elaborate game of "pretend", with its own bizarre rules, and I'm playing it with her.

I can SO relate!

My wife does not want me talking to anyone about her. It's paranoia. If I'm talking to someone about her I must be bad mouthing her. But she is right. I probably am. Not that I get any satisfaction out of sharing the difficulties I have with her, but that that is the only interactions (it seems) that I am having with her. Difficulties.  There is hardly any peace, and if there is, it doesn't last a week. So if I reach out to someone, I'm looking for a sanity check and possible help. Which never comes really. In my mind I'm not bad mouthing, I'm looking for help. To get help, I need to relay the situation. In relaying the situation I have to speak of her and the troubles we are having. The alternative is to not speak at all about it and just live in an isolated hell.

She would be livid to know that I am posting here. But I am here to get help. She will not be cool with me going to therapy, so I am here  instead. It's done in secret though because how else can I get the help I need. To tell her about it would probably end any hope that we may still have. It's a horrible dilemma. I don't believe in having secrets, to me it's lying and I don't want to lie. I just do not see the alternative in this alternative universe that is my marriage.

I talk secretly to my brother. I email him because if I texted him my wife would find the text. She searches my phone. Email is easier to hide. But I started privately speaking to him because I was at my wits end with no where to turn. I also needed to let him know why our relationship (me and him) was so strained. (we used to be best friends) My wife has tried to eliminate him from our lives.

Only one other person do I do this with and I was backed into a corner and had to confess to him. It's my boss. I was expected to go on a visit to a customers facility and to do that would have been impossible with my wife's condition. The accusations would have been unbearable. I couldn't see a way out so I had to let him know.

So, yes, there are those of us that carry on secret conversations with friends and family. This is so abnormal and stressful but necessary at the moment for me because I don't see any way around it. I do realize that it can't be sustained. At some point it will all come crashing down unless an actual miracle occurs.

I don't know if this helped but at least you know that you are not alone.

[waverider]

So, yes, there are those of us that carry on secret conversations with friends and family. This is so abnormal and stressful but necessary at the moment for me because I don't see any way around it. I do realize that it can't be sustained. At some point it will all come crashing down unless an actual miracle occurs.

It therefore creates the very situation they are so paranoid about, eventually you trip up and they are validated in their paranoia. We are just kicking the can down the road until that day arrives. You get roasted over hiding something extremely trivial, that you should not need to hide. This only serves to make you look like a very shady character who must have more serious evil doings to cover up if you are willing to lie about such a small thing.

This is the way it has always been for them. It is a circle they can never escape as they dont know any other existence. They are the experts at it, we are just like rabbits caught in the headlights, no wonder we cant make wise decisions on the run.

This is why you cant allow yourself to fall into the trap of always covering up everything that you think my trigger them, as that list will just grow to cover virtually everything you do, and you will stop existing as an individual.

[Link]

Sure, I totally agree waverider.

What is the alternative though?

I would expect the answer would be start adding boundaries. Start slowly taking back the ground given up.

I've tried to do this for 20+ years. She will not give an inch and she will break down, forcibly, every boundary erected. If this is the same situation going on with FarDrop77, what do you do then? How do you get the mental help that is so desperately needed?

[Gravity Man]

My recommendation is do not try to make sense out of any of this.  I recommend "Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist."  Also, there is a guy on Quora who writes under the name "WH Biggins" - I would read everything this guy has posted.  These are the two things that have helped me the most.  I've been dealing with this for 30+ years.

Several years ago, my wife was diagnosed with thyroid cancer.  Fortunately, it turned out to be slow growing and not deadly.  She did, however, need to have most of her thyroid gland removed and now must take synthroid.  At the time, she readily accepted the help of my parents to watch our young children during the operation and for a few days that followed while she recovered.  As a side note, she also asked my parents (through me) for help many other times for other things - and I mean some really big favors - including what was to us and them significant amount of money for some home improvements - a loan of which we did pay back.  But there were other really big  things of which I will not go into detail.

Fast forward 10-15 years for the birth of our youngest child.  I asked my mom to come help with our other kids at the time of birth, which she did for a week or two.  I needed the help because of work commitments and my wife was physically incapable of functioning.  It was after the birth of of youngest child that my wife painted my family completely black.  Shortly after the birth, my mom asked how my wife was doing.  I told her that she was feeling tired and they were experimenting with my wife's synthroid levels after the birth to make adjustments.  My wife hit the ceiling when I told her that I told my mom this.  I did not see this as some huge breach of trust since my wife had invited them into the whole thyroid situation years earlier.  They were well aware of it.  My family is still completely painted black except when my wife really needs something from them, then she is able to completely treat them as if nothing has ever happened.

I think when the experts talk these changes of personality as mood swings, it greatly understates the problem to those of having to live with it on a daily basis.  To me it is much closer to a person having multiple personalities, able to switch from one to another with ease - though I am told that is not it.

[waverider]

I think when the experts talk these changes of personality as mood swings, it greatly understates the problem to those of having to live with it on a daily basis.  To me it is much closer to a person having multiple personalities, able to switch from one to another with ease - though I am told that is not it.

Interesting point, I dont think of it as "mood" swings but more a "presentation" swing. Mood to me is more about feeling up or down, not sudden reactions to triggers which cant be contained.  A lot of the same thought processing goes on inside its just sometimes the reactions to things can be contained and often they cant. Many of the same motivational characteristics and thought processing are present, but sometimes they simmer away discreetly on the back burner at other times they ae boiling over and will burn anyone who is in contact with them.

The apparent multiple personalities i find in my case is role playing who they would like to be, almost like mimicking, hence at times leading to overcompensating, or trying too hard, over pleasant, over kind, most importantly making sure they are seen to be so. But its not internally deep rooted so only takes a nudge to completely displace it leaving them vulnerable, and reacting by lashing out and playing victim. Then equally pulling back that protective persona when required