Tried normal problem solving with BPDw - dumb idea - when will I learn my lesson

[maxsterling]

BPDw went back to work this year teaching at a nearby school.  She wanted to have S6 and D6 attend the same school she was now teaching at.  I was hesitant, my logic being that I needed a reason to take them out of the school they were in last year and put them in a new school and subjecting them to that stress.   If you recall my story, Ws indecision and arguments with the kids' teachers meant they switched schools 4 times last year.  So why did I try logically going through the steps with W this year rather than trusting my gut and putting my foot down?

Putting the kids in a new school does save us time and money and is logistically easier.  The new school is a good school, but a "rougher" population.  We talked to the kids' play therapist, and she encouraged us to try the new school. So did the P that evaluated the kids for ASD.  (I was hoping one of those two would tell W to keep them where they were so that W would drop it).   

W wanted them at her school and given the logistical advantages (I was also looking a bit farther down the road and having the kids at her school would make a potential separation and parenting schedule MUCH easier).  I could not think of a good reason not to move them, so I went against all instinct and knowledge of Ws track record and agreed. 

First day of school, the kids did great - much better than I expected.  W did exactly as I expected - upset with coworkers, had a hard time with her students, finding this or that that went wrong, generally negative.  10pm that night, now wants to re-enroll the kids in the old school.  And now seeing W's negative mood and knowing that W is not likely to keep this job beyond one year, I agreed. 

Why did I not simply put my foot down in the first place if I knew deep down exactly this would happen?  I even expressed this concern to W a month ago - that if we switched them I wanted us to commit to more than this school year and I was concerned she would not like her job and quit and we would be switching schools for the kids again.

I've got a lot to discuss with my T on Friday...

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[Notwendy]

Max, this is a good question- not why doesn't this work with your wife but- why do you continuously go with her wishes, even if you know that what she proposes- her reasoning- isn't based on reality, but her own feelings and you have reasons to not go along with it.

Basically the process is this: you suspend your own sense of reality and temporarily buy into hers. All the while you have a sense of what is going on with your reality- and you ignore it.

This is what Dr. Phil said to a family with a disordered family member and while the disorder wasn't the same as BPD, the statement stood out to me. "You are all lost in the woods and looking at a disordered person to lead you out".

Somehow, you follow your wife "into the woods" ( her reality) and then, you realize you have done that.

I don't think this is always conscious- it's almost an automatic response. You are responsible for your decision, you know you are making that decision, but it's almost as if something takes over you and you go along with her.

It doesn't matter how intelligent or logical someone is- my father was very smart, educated, accomplished. Yet, when it came to agreeing with my mother's wishes, he did- whether it made sense or not, or if it even was the reasonable thing to do, or if it was illogical.

I recall trying to make a logical decision and it didn't work- I was naive to the dynamics with BPD at the time. BPD mother needed a new computer. My mother can barely do the basic functions on a computer. She wants it for emails and to order items online. She also tends to believe other people's opinions, so she asks the teen age son of her friend what computer he thinks is best and decides on that one. Sends Dad to the store to get it for her- an expensive one that would be a gamer's dream- well if you ask a teen age boy what he thinks is the best computer - that's what he's going to wish for. I was visiting so I went with him.

At the store, I find one on sale that is perfect for mother- has all the functions she wants, is easier to operate- and half the cost of the one she wants. I show it to Dad and he snaps "no, we have to get the one she wants". And I understand- once she decides she "needs" something- it has to be exactly what she has in mind. Nothing else will do. But her need isn't rational and to meet that need is going to cost him a lot more than the computer that is the best one for her.

I am thinking logically but logical thinking doesn't apply when it comes to discussions with BPD mother. The only thing that would have worked would be to say no, but Dad couldn't do that and I understand why that is as well.

In your situation, once your wife got this idea - and it made sense to her, and actually I know teachers who have their kids in the same school where they work- it's easier to commute and have the kids there. She's not thinking she may not keep that job. That's another aspect of what I have seen with my mother- she has an idea of what she wants and you can't propose another one or another possibility.

Why did you give in? You gave in because saying no would be a much more difficult situation. You know how your wife will react if you say no. I know how my mother reacts if anyone in the family says no to her or argues with her "wants". It takes a lot of time and emotional attention to do that. She's not likely to give that up and that one thing you did or didn't do could become the excuse or reason for any dissatisfaction.

The problem with giving in is that it reinforces her behavior, it's enabling. But sometimes one just doesn't have the emotional reserves to get into it. Like with my father, I think he was considering the savings in cost of getting a different computer vs the reaction he'd be facing if he did- it wasn't worth the money to him to do that.

The other problem is that when decisions are made like this- there are consequences. There were financial issues due to spending decisions. Relationships were strained due to the dynamics in the family. I agree- this is something to bring up with your T because you are playing a part in the dynamics between you and your wife. If you want to change that, it's something to look at.

[Skip]

Which problem solving event bothers you the most? The practical one that the professionals agreed with or the emotional one pushed by your wife after one day of work?

At the end of the day, its not a big deal as the kids are six-ish and they spent one day in different school, but is there a lesson to be learned?

If you had it to live it over (each decision) how might you have handled them differently (or would you handle the same); the decision to go to her school, the decision to withdraw from her school.

What will you do if she settles into her new job and then suggests the children go to her school again?

[Notwendy]

I remember that we kids changed schools sometimes. My BPD mother isn't a teacher so these moves would have been for other reasons. One is that we moved due to my father's work- so that reason was a logical one- we moved as a family. But even when we didn't move we sometimes changed schools. There was always a reason- the school was the better one. But thinking about the computer purchase- I wonder how did my parents arrive at which is the "better" school? So now, after reading this, I wonder if some of the school changes were due to my mother's decisions.

I agree with Skip that changing schools doesn't have a large impact on a 6 year old unless one school is obviously worse than another one in terms of academics or peers and in your kids' situations, services available or the children are moved excessively and during the academic year. The only time it became more difficult for us was at the middle school and high school levels- and the main one is social as kids tend to form their groups. Middle school can be socially difficult, especially for children on the spectrum if your children might be and being a new kid in this situation could be tough. I give my parents credit for not moving us during a school year. If there was a change, it was done over the summer.

I think the bigger issue about these decisions is between you and your wife. If your kids have spent one day in a new school, it isn't a big deal to either keep them there or move them back to their other school. I think it would be a big problem if you keep changing them back and forth several times. The other consideration is that this is the start of the academic year. Moving in the middle would be more disruptive. If you are going to change back to the old school- best to do it now and do not move them again. Or keep them at the new school and don't move them again.

All kids, and especially kids on the spectrum, need consistency. Once you decide on a school- it's best for them to keep them there.

[maxsterling]

My gut was telling me months ago to keep them at the same school.  I had my logical reasons and reasons based upon experience with W.  But I also think I had "emotional" biases, and I wondered if those emotional reasons were unfairly taking precedence in my own head.  So, I wasn't trusting my first instinct, and that made me open to W's reasoning.   I was hoping others (the T and P, and other family) would step in - but they didn't.  So, I tried to logically justify W's reasoning - and the saving me time and money aspect won out.  Also winning out was the possibility of separating from my W with minimal disruptions for the kids (if they were at the old school and we separated they would most likely be forced to go to a different school for logistical reasons).

I did tell her when we made the decision that I wanted her to commit to two years.  Of course when she came to me last night with her concerns, emotions (and parental protection instincts) kicked in, and I trusted her negative description as valid.

[Notwendy]

Seems like you went against the trusting your gut twice now. The first was that you somehow rationalized the move to the new school even if you didn't want it. Then you had an agreement that if the kids moved, they'd stay in one place for two years. Now you have gone back on that too.

Right now, at this time, if you move the kids back after one day, it's not likely to have an impact on them. Moving them back and forth several times during the school year according to your wife's feelings would.

Take a step back from this dilemma. The "reason" might change but the pattern is you ignoring your gut feelings and rationalizing your wife's wishes. This is a pattern with you.  Your story seemed similar to my parents' relationship. I was trying to understand why my father did some of the things he did. They didn't make logical sense to me and this went against what I knew of my father. He was a rational and effective person-who was also married to a very mentally ill BPD woman. For many of the decisions, he knew they weren't rational. Sometimes he'd hold his ground, but that didn't last long. He always  complied with what my mother wanted.

That's your main question Max. Why do you do it? I think we learn to do it and it gets easier the more you do it. In the beginning, I think the love feeling causes us to override "trust your gut" hesitation. In time, it can become a pattern. You know that practicing anything- a sport, an instrument- makes it automatic. You get better at it. To change this, one has to practice a different behavior. It's not easy, it takes practice. (Assuming you don't play violin) If you were to play a violin for the first time, you'd sound like screaming cats. It would feel awkward. Years later, with practice, it would be smooth and automatic.

Your T can help you do this.

[maxsterling]

Seems like you went against the trusting your gut twice now. The first was that you somehow rationalized the move to the new school even if you didn't want it. Then you had an agreement that if the kids moved, they'd stay in one place for two years. Now you have gone back on that too.

I think one of the "themes" for those of us living with a BPD partner is that their black and white thinking in extremes makes us feel like we have to have black and white responses - there is no "middle ground"  Of course, that is not true, but when you have seen your BPD partner attempt suicide and/or have other extreme reactions we condition ourselves to expect those reactions and allow that to influence our thought processes.  So, in my case the fact that W was so incredibly negative following the first day of school, I saw a real possibility that W either quits the job or winds up in a mental hospital, so I felt that switching schools after one day or one week was far better than the real possibility that the kids will be on their own in a new school while W is in the hospital or back at home licking her wounds.  So right now moving back to the old school feels like trusting my gut, because I know with almost certainty that this school year will not go well with W.  I knew that before, too.  Perhaps I was scared to simply say to W "I want the kids to go to the same school until we know for certain that you will like your job and be able to keep it.  I might have been scared of her reaction, but I know I was also scared that if she interpreted my position as a lack of confidence in her, then it would almost be a guarantee that the job would be a failure.  And that is hard because I know that if W is able to keep a job, that greatly reduces the burden upon me.

[maxsterling]

Which problem solving event bothers you the most? The practical one that the professionals agreed with or the emotional one pushed by your wife after one day of work?

At the end of the day, its not a big deal as the kids are six-ish and they spent one day in different school, but is there a lesson to be learned?

If you had it to live it over (each decision) how might you have handled them differently (or would you handle the same); the decision to go to her school, the decision to withdraw from her school.

What will you do if she settles into her new job and then suggests the children go to her school again?

Good questions.  Both problem solving events bothered me equally but for different reasons.  The first one bothered me because we were simply having the discussion.  There is a history here from a year ago, and I was annoyed that we were even considering switching schools.  Actually, it was W considering it, and I felt obligated to participate as a parent.  The discussion after 1 day of school bothered me because I was frustrated with myself for not trusting my gut earlier knowing what would happen.  I felt I let my kids down by not strongly advocating that they stay at the same school.

Doing it over again, I would have pushed harder for them remaining at the old school and trying again to compromise - that our concerns with the new school are valid, and we can always switch to the new school after a week or month if W likes her job and the environment.  For last nights decision, the only approach I would have done differently would be to say that it has only been one day, and it would be easier to switch beginning next week.  Once I saw how negative W was about her job, I have no problem with the decision to switch back. 

As for W settling into her job, I put the chance of that at almost zero.  I've known her 10 years, and the longest she has had a job was just over a year, and she never really settled into it.  Going back to her years prior to me, I don't think she ever had a job longer than two years, and only one she ever says much positive about - but that was a college part time job.  If by miracle  she actually settles in and enjoy her job, I would re-evaluate at that time. 

[Notwendy]

I think one of the "themes" for those of us living with a BPD partner is that their black and white thinking in extremes makes us feel like we have to have black and white responses - there is no "middle ground"  Of course, that is not true, but when you have seen your BPD partner attempt suicide and/or have other extreme reactions we condition ourselves to expect those reactions and allow that to influence our thought processes.  So, in my case the fact that W was so incredibly negative following the first day of school, I saw a real possibility that W either quits the job or winds up in a mental hospital, so I felt that switching schools after one day or one week was far better than the real possibility that the kids will be on their own in a new school while W is in the hospital or back at home licking her wounds.  So right now moving back to the old school feels like trusting my gut, because I know with almost certainty that this school year will not go well with W.  I knew that before, too.  Perhaps I was scared to simply say to W "I want the kids to go to the same school until we know for certain that you will like your job and be able to keep it.  I might have been scared of her reaction, but I know I was also scared that if she interpreted my position as a lack of confidence in her, then it would almost be a guarantee that the job would be a failure.  And that is hard because I know that if W is able to keep a job, that greatly reduces the burden upon me.

Exactly- and I too have seen these extreme reactions that you described. Like your wife, my mother is very impaired. There's no way she could hold a job. The difference for her is that she is from the era where "women didn't work" and so it was not expected of her to do so.

I see the toll this relationship has on you. I could see it with my father as well. Yet somehow, you are emotionally tied to this woman, in a way others may not understand- even if it is difficult for you. My father was too.

I suspect this fear of her reaction plays a role in the decisions he goes along with too. I imagine it's a logical decision to give in rather than deal with the possible reactions.

I felt I let my kids down by not strongly advocating that they stay at the same school.


Understandable you feel this way. But this is another thought-
Before you let your kids down, you let yourself down.

You ignored your "trust your gut" Max, and once that becomes easy and automatic, it's also easier to do so with the kids.

This is water under the bridge Max and whatever school the kids go to, if you don't keep changing schools, this one change won't make a difference. It's also a learning curve for you Max. You can see your part in it. We can learn from this. The next time you are in a situation like this, you will have learned from this and this can help you make choices that are aligned with your thinking.

[Skip]

I was frustrated with myself for not trusting my gut...

Another possible perspective. "Trusting our gut" is a backward-looking phrase. In life, we only get to make forward-looking decisions. For that, mindfulness is a good tool. It's about finding balance between our emotional (gut) and fact-centered mind (logic).

Doing it over again, I would have pushed harder for them remaining at the old school and trying again to compromise - that our concerns with the new school are valid, and we can always switch to the new school after a week or month if W likes her job and the environment.

 
Compromise and trying to work with the "grayness" (pros and cons) sounds like a good formula for both decisions. Your wife experiences life in black and white. You don't need to.

The two professionals, your wife, and you all saw the practical, logistical benefits of going to the new school. There were risks/cons too. All said, it was probably worth the risk. I'm reading that between the lines you've written.

Based on the information on hand at the time, the upside outweighed the downside.

For last nights decision, the only approach I would have done differently would be to say that it has only been one day, and it would be easier to switch beginning next week.

 
I think so too. Again, she reasons in black-and-white terms - by the gut. You don't need to. You could probably have sold this "compromise" to her.

And a lot can change in a week with a person with BPD traits.

I felt I let my kids down by not strongly advocating that they stay at the same school.

Will this be on the kid's radar a week from now? Sure, we always want to put the kids first, but this event will be a distant blip by next week.

Going back to your title... "Tried normal problem solving with BPDw - dumb idea - when will I learn my lesson". Granted, this situation didn't work out. But mindful thinking on your part is not why it failed.

[EyesUp]

Tales from the other side.

uBPDxw wanted to enroll D8 and D12 (then younger) at her school... like OP, my X had just started a new teaching role in a new school.

Logistically, it would be much easier - she could provide transport to/from, no need for early AM or after school care (reduce expense), and... it's a very good private school.

However...

As we are now divorced, with 50-50 decision making, uBPDxw cannot make unilateral decisions... both parents are explicitly required to sign to approve enrollment.  

So many past decisions in our relationship were, in fact, unilateral - in which I capitulated - so there was the appearance of agreement - when in fact, there was none.  

"happy wife, happy life" - I'd like to review some things with whoever coined that term...

Fast forward: I laid the logical arguments:  Kids are all performing at or above level.  Kids have established relationships and friendships.  Kids have already been through enough recent disruption (moved towns, started new schools, covid, divorce...) and another major change is not necessarily helpful.  Continuity and stability are key.  All points fell on deaf ears.  

Lack of immediate agreement - or capitulation - induced rage.  My X threatened to file a motion - for what, I'm not sure - but it was just a threat.  I suspect that she was advised that any such motion would be tied up with evaluations for some time, during which the kids would continue with their current schools anyway...

Why did my X want to change schools in the first place?  One idea was more time with the kids. More time = more influence and control of the kids.  Another idea was more time with kids = more ways to extract "love" from the kids.  

From where I sit, I never had a way to "reason" with my X when we were married - I was either with her or against her. Everything was framed as win/lose. There was no such thing as win/win.  Post-marriage, I still don't have a way to reason with X. However I have gained other tools and ways to communicate that help set boundaries.

This is not intended to be a pro-divorce post, however it is an example of how to set firm boundaries...   sometimes radical acceptance does not mean accepting someone else - it means accepting some hard truths about yourself - and what you are and are not able to do or change on your own.

OP - What are some things you might be able to do differently next time a scenario like this comes up?

[maxsterling]

Wow Eyesup, that is very interesting.

I think most of her motivation for wanting the kids to be at her school is to have more control/involvement in their lives.  And I knew this.  The problem is, I tried to approach the situation the same as I would with a co-worker, family member, or nearly everyone else in my life. Unfortunately, I am dealing with a disordered person where it feels like I either go along with her moods or have her blame me later.  What I am learning to do is trust my own decision and reject the blame and not worry about the consequences.  If she wants to move out, fine.  I have no control over that.  I can simply do what I need to do what is right for me.  This was one area where I saw potential benefits for me and the kids on both sides.

In our household, I wind up doing 90-95% of the domestic duties, on top of my career.  W going back to work and having the kids at her school is a way to reclaim some of that - because now she would not be tasking me with taking the kids back and forth to school and spending more time with them.  I think she envies the time I spend with the kids and she sees it as a competition between us (the kids have started to prefer me for most things, and I know that bothers her).  But, it's backwards thinking on her part - If she would simply be more present when she is around the kids I am sure things would be different.  She will spend all day at home with them while I work, yet all she does is sit on her phone while they watch TV or do their own thing.   I get home, and she then complains that she did not have the energy to do anything with them.  Having them at school with her makes her feel "involved" without having to do anything. 

I suspect the person who coined the "happy wife, happy life" phrase may have had experience with BPD, either a BPD wife wanting a spouse to make her happy, or from a husband having to deal with a demanding wife.

[Notwendy]

It's understandable that your wife wants what any mother wants - but does she have the capacity for it? My mother wants the impression of being a good mother- but the reality is that she can barely handle herself over the course of the day and her emotions and relationship skills are limited. Much of what goes on in our family is scaffolding and doing for her so she appears in line with these things.

Like you, Dad did the parenting and other tasks ( or he hired household help) .Inevitably, kids bond with a parent who takes care of them and the parent they feel safe with. We were mostly afraid of BPD mother. I think it did bother her that I preferred my father. I can understand that this is concerning to your wife. But she can only have the relationship that she's capable of. You can't do this for her. She may want to spend more time with them, but may not be capable of this unless you are there to help too.

Having them at school with her makes her feel "involved" without having to do anything.

I think that says it well. But if it were also good for the kids, then it's not an issue. I think the main issue is not what school they are at,  but to not move them too frequently. I think what bothered you about agreeing to this is that you saw the reason for the move as being a way to meet your wife's emotional need rather than based on logic and best interest for the kids, and then she changed her feelings about the school.

[maxsterling]

It's understandable that your wife wants what any mother wants - but does she have the capacity for it?

From my observation, no.  At the beginning of the summer, she took the kids to housesit for my brother, and within 24 hours after my brother and his family left, W was calling me up freaking out not knowing what to do, saying she could not handle the kids by herself.  Any time she takes the kids *anywhere* by herself, she remarks what an accomplishment it is and how difficult it was.  On a typical week prior to her working, she would sit at home with the kids, possibly team up with another mom for a playdate, then come the weekend tell me the kids havent been anywhere all week and that they needed to get out of the house.  The expectation was that I would be there so that we could all do something together.  A few weeks ago, W wanted to take them to a movie, and I told her to take them by herself because I had a lot of work to do around the house.  She could not handle that and came home without seeing a movie preferring to watch something at home. 

Thinking about this more - I went from wanting a reason to move schools from the old school to wanting a reason to not move them.  This happened because I gave into Ws emotional need and considered the move, and then after the P and T raised no issues (I was surprised they didn't), I was then needing a reason not to move them, and never had that reason. 

[Notwendy]

That's the case with my mother as well, and our family made great efforts to hide this, as I think it also causes her shame and makes her feel bad about herself. But it is what it is- she simply can't. It was so confusing growing up and knowing at a certain point that my mother is not like the mothers of my friends but I didn't dare say anything because we had to pretend she was.

This is part of radical acceptance. It isn't a right/wrong or good/bad thing. She isn't a bad mother. She's a mentally ill person whose capacity for doing things is limited. I very much doubt that your wife would move out. I don't think she could manage it, even if she thinks or says it.

I think you were looking for an outside reason to be able to hold your own opinion- and there was none as far as the kids were concerned because, probably, either school would meet their needs.

I think what you realized with more clarity is that, you were trying a logical approach to a decision that was based on your wife's emotions. Logic doesn't work in this situation. Probably most of what your wife wants are emotionally driven. It's like the computer example. Logic would presume that a teen ager's dream gaming computer makes no sense for a grandmother who doesn't need all these features. What drove the purchase was that my mother had an emotional feeling about it.

No two people will want the same things and will have to work out differences. But you are correct in that you are not dealing with someone who thinks logically like you do. You are going to have to pick your battles here. Some things are not worth the battle. Maybe the school decision isn't. I'd be putting my foot down on frequent moves, but maybe not on school choice if the schools are equivalent for the kids.

For me, I don't adopt my BPD mother's reality but I do try to think in terms of "what is the feeling behind this request". The next question is- what is worth holding a boundary on and what isn't that big a deal for me, even if it doesn't make logical sense to me, and what are the consequences of that decision. I am willing to go along with some of them when they don't have harmful consequences. It may help to look at your wife's requests through the emotional lens as well.

It's not fair in the sense of a relationship that you do most of the work of parenting but if she isn't able to, then the kids still have that need. If you can shift your reason to it being for their benefit, that may sit better with you. But you have to also take care of yourself and hold on to your reality - for your sake and theirs.

[waverider]

I think where the self loathing is kicking in is that you feel like your feelings or opinions are of little value, so you cant sell them as a reason. You have to rely on some external factors which can be seen as outside of your influence. eg someone else stepping in, or some genuine practical obstacle.

This is massively invalidating for you, especially as it has probably become a repeat pattern. Sometimes we try to "invent" more logic than required due to the lack of currency our "feelings" have. Meanwhile pwBPD uses no logic and all feelings, so our reasons, and ability to communicate on the same plane, becomes even further apart.

"Sorry I am not comfortable with this" is a genuine, honest, and fair enough, reason, but carries absolutely no weight when used to debate a pwBPD.

How often do you find yourself scratching around for effectively side issues to justify major decisions? This is getting into JADE territory. You bring them in to shore up your opinion, yet a pwBPD will drag side issues into an issue to camouflage the real reasons. The end result is decisions are made on no solid reasoning at all. Chaos ensues.

Emotional(gut) and logical consequence based reasoning need to both be used in conjunction to arrive at a workable strategy. Allowing one to completely rule always leads to regret.

The longer you can insert delays between thought, proposals, plans and actions the better