Walking on eggshells 2.0

[15years]

Hi!

While I'm not taking things personally too much and her opinion of me doesn't define what I think of myself as much as it used to, I have been realizing I still walk on eggshells around her. I don't think I like her outbursts on any level anymore, the sense of validation I get from it isn't worth it. So I do my best to avoid triggering her which has led me to being extremely hyper vigilant. Up until when she is already dysregulated, after that it's not the same.

For example when she is nice, or still regulated, I am careful about the music I listen to, to avoid triggering her. And I wouldn't start arguing about my right to listen to any music either as long as she's not completely dysregulated. So I focus on not triggering her, while still trying to listen to music as freely as possible kind of within the framework of her feelings, so it becomes a balancing act which at some point leads to a situation where she feels I have gone too far, which of course I haven't...

I don't know what steps I need to take to make some progress, it's tiring and stressful to do this. Sometimes I wonder why I don't simply try more to live my life like she wants me to...

[Smedley Butler]

i live with a constant low-level of stress and anxiety anytime i am physically in the presence of my wife for the same reasons you describe.  funny you mentioned music, because we have the same issue.  she constantly takes issue with the volume and/or content of the music i am listening to.  i cant simply get in the car with her and my kids and turn on music without a nervous feeling of what she is going to say or do.  and i listen to mostly classic country music, it's not like i'm getting in and bumping NWA with my kids in the back seat.  similarly, i'm not getting in and cranking the volume to 100.  nevertheless, she gets upset about the song or the volume, and then accuses me of being controlling when I get frustrated with her changing the volume or song.  crazytown.

for this reason, i drive separate almost everywhere we go if at all possible.  i come up with some reason, like i have an errand to run afterwards, or i need to stop for coffee on the way to church, or something like that. 

[ForeverDad]

I don't know what steps I need to take to make some progress, it's tiring and stressful to do this. Sometimes I wonder why I don't simply try more to live my life like she wants me to...

Um, I thought you were already trying to live your life like she wants you to... and it doesn't work?

[15years]

Didn't walk on eggshells good enough yesterday. My mistake - I commented on a strange looking pair of earrings a woman had in one of her women's magazines. I just said "Have you ever seen these kind of earrings in action ", which was enough of a slip up to cause her delusions to spiral out of control. Now she wants to resolve this matter and get to the bottom of this "pattern" of mine, where I try to make her uncomfortable by making sexual innuendos about other women because of my own insecurities.

First time in a while I made this big of a slip up, and it's really nothing. Says a lot about how little I actually do trigger her, I've put a lot of energy the last year into not saying things she might misinterpret, this time though it just slipped out of me without a second thought. Actually I just wanted to connect with her (though I admit it was a totally uninteresting and boring comment of me), I guess I forgot for a second that she is insane.

How can I stop walking on eggshells if this is the reaction I get if I don't?

[elmtree]

I truly think there’s no way to stop it. The second they start feeling out of control they go ballistic. Might be subtle things or might be a complete blow up. I kind of inferred that there were some things I was concerned about and she started doing some research and said no I don’t have what you think I have. If I did, I’d be really angry right now. The only reason I get so upset is because you know my triggers. that’s the key right there. Triggers. I know there are things that upset people, but if you know you have triggers, that should be a red flag right there. She turned it around and said I’m not who I used to be and now I should be on some sort of medication. That I have mental problems. this is the exact reaction expected after all of the reading I did. Now she’s in desperation mode. After I told her, I think we can’t move forward, and she’s demanding intimacy, and all kinds of things after completely berating me over and over.

[elmtree]

Um, I thought you were already trying to live your life like she wants you to... and it doesn't work?

Just had my first therapy appointment since January, and my therapist reminded me that I told her the same thing. She said it was a big red flag, and at the time i didn’t know about BDP.  They use tactics to brainwash us, making us think we’re the problem in order to regain control when they start to worry about abandonment. Now that I’m realizing and showing resistance, she says she misses the old me, that there’s something wrong with me and that i should be on meds. No! I’m still the same calm guy, but i’m just not as submissive.

Last night she berated me, the. woke me up hysterically crying, begging me not to leave. Don’t try to make sense of it, because it doesn’t make sense. you can only remind yourself that it’s the condition, and you don’t have to comply with every order.

[livethequestions]

Ah boy, do I relate. I'm at a point where... I don't really think it's possible to stop walking on eggshells around someone who has untreated BPD.

Music is a thing, too. I don't listen to my own music at home, or with my spouse in the car. I also can't enjoy my music using headphones, because I am constantly scanning my surroundings for signs of an explosion (mainly them screaming). It's exhausting...

It is crazy what we end up doing to avoid triggering them.

[who_knows11]

Just had my first therapy appointment since January, and my therapist reminded me that I told her the same thing. She said it was a big red flag, and at the time i didn’t know about BDP.  They use tactics to brainwash us, making us think we’re the problem in order to regain control when they start to worry about abandonment. Now that I’m realizing and showing resistance, she says she misses the old me, that there’s something wrong with me and that i should be on meds. No! I’m still the same calm guy, but i’m just not as submissive.

Last night she berated me, the. woke me up hysterically crying, begging me not to leave. Don’t try to make sense of it, because it doesn’t make sense. you can only remind yourself that it’s the condition, and you don’t have to comply with every order.

I feel for you here.  Seems like I'm in the same place.  My wife hates that I now just stare at her blankly when she is telling me how awful I am.  I get it a little.  It's like there is zero care or concern coming from me, because that's sort of true.  I care and have concern about her but I'm so over the drama.  I just sit there and wait for her to quit talking/screaming.  My resistance has put her in a new perspective somehow.  It's different but no better.  We've went through the same ups and downs of I'm awful and she's about done with me to in a matter of minutes it's all her fault and she doesn't understand why I haven't left her yet

[ForeverDad]

BPD is a disorder most evident in close relationships.  Some may describe it as a disorder impacting only close relationships but the fact is that others can notice too but to a much lesser degree since they don't experience the full brunt of what happens in private scenarios (behind closed doors and alone in automobile trips) where they vent as they feel free to let it all out.

Distance helps, you may conclude the person has improved and be tempted things are better now, less bad, but go back and get close again and the cycles just restart again.  Meaningful therapy that is diligently applied in their entire lives over years is the only realistic way for substantive improvements.

Since many are deep into Denial and Blame Shifting, at some point it may be that Ending the adult relationship is the last alternative.  Of course, if there are children then the parenting continues, but separately.

[elmtree]

We've went through the same ups and downs of I'm awful and she's about done with me to in a matter of minutes it's all her fault and she doesn't understand why I haven't left her yet

This is a difficult weekend for us. We were supposed to go away to renew vows in front of friends and family and cancelled last minute due to a blow up fight. During the flight here she begged me not to divorce her and constantly takes jabs at me saying i should love her more. So here we are in a hotel, in separate rooms. I’m with my daughters and she’s alone. I actually got a second suite as a backup plan thinking she and her daughter could stay in this one, but she twisted it saying my plan all alone was to make her stay by herself. I had been hoping her daughter wouldn’t cancel her plans to be here, but she did. I had asked her if she would stay in the suite with us, but she refuses and now says she won’t talk to me until we leave to catch our flight back in a few days. Everyone in my life tells me to leave, yet I’m laying here on the bet with a huge pit of anxiety about the whole thing. I love her beyond words, yet I know we can’t be truly happy together.

[ForeverDad]

This is a difficult weekend for us. We were supposed to go away to renew vows in front of friends and family and cancelled last minute due to a blow up fight. During the flight here she begged me not to divorce her and constantly takes jabs at me saying i should love her more...
Everyone in my life tells me to leave, yet I’m laying here on the bet with a huge pit of anxiety about the whole thing. I love her beyond words, yet I know we can’t be truly happy together.

elmtree, around here as we deal with intractable people with BPD behaviors (pwBPD), hopium typically doesn't work.

I'm thinking renewing vows would have been putting icing on a refrigerator leftover.  Making it look pretty would not have made the reality any better.

Have you heard of the 5 stages of grieving a loss, a popular internet topic? We have a few topics on our Tools and Skills Workshops board concerning grieving. Here's one of them:
Grieving Mental Illness in a Loved One

[elmtree]

elmtree, around here as we deal with intractable people with BPD behaviors (pwBPD), hopium typically doesn't work.

I'm thinking renewing vows would have been putting icing on a refrigerator leftover.  Making it look pretty would not have made the reality any better.

Have you heard of the 5 stages of grieving a loss, a popular internet topic? We have a few topics on our Tools and Skills Workshops board concerning grieving. Here's one of them:
Grieving Mental Illness in a Loved One

Thank you for the link.  It wasn’t until the big blowup, and things that happened after, that I realized she has the traits of BPD.  I started therapy after having last met with my therapist in January, and she told me there were some red flags that she noticed back then.  It was the recent session that she mentioned that although she can’t diagnose someone based on my description of things, it really sounded like BPD behaviors.  Blew my mind after researching and reading stories from others that were so similar to what I’ve been experiencing. 

[15years]

This is a difficult weekend for us. We were supposed to go away to renew vows in front of friends and family and cancelled last minute due to a blow up fight. During the flight here she begged me not to divorce her and constantly takes jabs at me saying i should love her more. So here we are in a hotel, in separate rooms. I’m with my daughters and she’s alone. I actually got a second suite as a backup plan thinking she and her daughter could stay in this one, but she twisted it saying my plan all alone was to make her stay by herself. I had been hoping her daughter wouldn’t cancel her plans to be here, but she did. I had asked her if she would stay in the suite with us, but she refuses and now says she won’t talk to me until we leave to catch our flight back in a few days. Everyone in my life tells me to leave, yet I’m laying here on the bet with a huge pit of anxiety about the whole thing. I love her beyond words, yet I know we can’t be truly happy together.

Me and my wife had a civil marriage (as in not married in church), despite being Christians. I think we were both insecure and wanted to be different by not doing the normal thing (marrying in church). Ever since, she's blaming me for not giving her a real romantic wedding (plus the fact that I never really proposed properly in the first place). I used to do what she wanted me to do, so naturally I would have given her a church wedding if she wanted to. And I understand that it can be really frustrating to have a partner who simply does what he/she is asked to do. I understand that it would have felt good if I would have told her; "No! I want a beautiful ceremony in church and a big wedding with lots of guests!".

A few years later, we struggled to conceive for a few months, and she thought that it might be because we didn't have a Christian wedding ceremony, so we arranged a quiet blessing of the marriage with a priest and our first son present. I even bought her a ring and made an awkward proposal, because she had implied that I should do that. So now she has three rings.

A couple of years later the relationship crisis really took off. A year into that, she began expressing the wish to arrange a real wedding party. She wanted me to tell my family about these plans and I did. Around that time I started to realize that I might not be the villain she paints me as after all (two years ago now). I joined BPDfamily 12/2021 and around that time I was VERY anxious about whether I should go along with arranging a wedding or not. I felt that if she asks me to, I have to do it. Luckily she dropped the idea on her own at some point. If she would suggest it now, I wouldn't consider it.

I wanted to write this down, because I really think I understand the confusion and anxiety you must feel about renewing your vows.

[who_knows11]

This is a difficult weekend for us. We were supposed to go away to renew vows in front of friends and family and cancelled last minute due to a blow up fight. During the flight here she begged me not to divorce her and constantly takes jabs at me saying i should love her more. So here we are in a hotel, in separate rooms. I’m with my daughters and she’s alone. I actually got a second suite as a backup plan thinking she and her daughter could stay in this one, but she twisted it saying my plan all alone was to make her stay by herself. I had been hoping her daughter wouldn’t cancel her plans to be here, but she did. I had asked her if she would stay in the suite with us, but she refuses and now says she won’t talk to me until we leave to catch our flight back in a few days. Everyone in my life tells me to leave, yet I’m laying here on the bet with a huge pit of anxiety about the whole thing. I love her beyond words, yet I know we can’t be truly happy together.

Man I feel you.  That sounds like a lot of my trips with my wife.  I don't want to take anymore trips at this point.  Why spend all that money to go fight somewhere else when we can just fight at home for free.  It's a terrible feeling and I hate that I'm not the only one having to feel it.  I wouldn't wish it on anybody.  Your last sentence might be the hardest part.  I know that to your wife and mine it feels as if we don't love them or care about them, but we know that isn't true.  It's really sad that they feel that way.  I am truly sad for them

[Tangled mangled]

Totally! That’s very funny  . My parents had a timetable/routine for arguing and fighting, it was a weekly occurrence. Two narcs been in a hellish marriage for over 45 years, I m no contact but 100% believe they still fight.
Makes sense to do it at home. I use to dread going on holiday with my ex. Only time I managed to do so in 10 years I ended up babysitting him because he was drunk the whole time. We had alcohol fuelled arguments, didn’t know it was bpd.

[Tangled mangled]

Phone error

[elmtree]

Me and my wife had a civil marriage (as in not married in church), despite being Christians. I think we were both insecure and wanted to be different by not doing the normal thing (marrying in church). Ever since, she's blaming me for not giving her a real romantic wedding (plus the fact that I never really proposed properly in the first place). I used to do what she wanted me to do, so naturally I would have given her a church wedding if she wanted to. And I understand that it can be really frustrating to have a partner who simply does what he/she is asked to do. I understand that it would have felt good if I would have told her; "No! I want a beautiful ceremony in church and a big wedding with lots of guests!".

A few years later, we struggled to conceive for a few months, and she thought that it might be because we didn't have a Christian wedding ceremony, so we arranged a quiet blessing of the marriage with a priest and our first son present. I even bought her a ring and made an awkward proposal, because she had implied that I should do that. So now she has three rings.

A couple of years later the relationship crisis really took off. A year into that, she began expressing the wish to arrange a real wedding party. She wanted me to tell my family about these plans and I did. Around that time I started to realize that I might not be the villain she paints me as after all (two years ago now). I joined BPDfamily 12/2021 and around that time I was VERY anxious about whether I should go along with arranging a wedding or not. I felt that if she asks me to, I have to do it. Luckily she dropped the idea on her own at some point. If she would suggest it now, I wouldn't consider it.

I wanted to write this down, because I really think I understand the confusion and anxiety you must feel about renewing your vows.

Well, here we are. Stayed in separate rooms. my two grown daughters and i in one room and she in another. Thursday night she told me not to talk or communicate with her until Monday morning before our flight. This morning, first thing she made a scene at the hotel and told me to ‘f’ off. now she’s begging me to be with her. what?

[Notwendy]

I think they may also do the "splitting" with themselves. PwBPD have a poor sense of self and external things can either reinforce their positive self image or become the blame for their uncomfortable feelings. It's an odd cognitive dissonance. Yet, they want what any other person in their situation wants- a caring spouse and family but somehow there's a disconnect between their behavior and that.

My BPD mother seems to want visible displays of affectionate family.  She planned a family get together around her birthday. Our relationship has been complicated. She wanted me to tell stories about her being a wonderful mother. One might think "oh go ahead and indulge her". I had planned to say something positive but I think I would have stammered at a scripted speech and so told her I'd say something in my own words.  So she got someone else in her extended family to do it and I was not asked to say anything.

Even if my parents argued at home, my father would praise my mother in public. The statement "putting icing on leftovers" fits when the image seems different from what is actually going on.  The idea of people's love language comes to mind but this seems to be a self image need too and with a shaky sense of self- a need that may not be something we might think of. She's hosted  birthday parties for my father as well with friends and family. He'd have been happy to have birthday cake with immediate family at home. I have learned that she needs the affirmation. I try to do what I feel is authentic when possible.

I think it is possible for them to do this "split"- have an argument in the hotel room and also want a vow renewal ceremony. It's hard for the spouse/family members to comprehend- these two scenarios go together, but not if they are split. The question is- if their need for this is greater than what you can do financially or emotionally - then boundaries are necessary and they will not be happy about it, and maybe not even if we do agree to what is wanted. I hosted another birthday get together later for my BPD mother later. I knew I had disappointed her before, so I tried to do something nice for her. The day of the party, she got angry at me and refused to attend. Right before the party, she changed her mind and came. She then told me my visit made her unhappy- and didn't mention the party.

Which brings up another idea- them thinking like a victim- but the vow renewal or party for them- that doesn't align with victim thinking- so perhaps they will sabotage it in a way- so that it isn't the success hoped for? Yet at the same time- still wanting the show of affection?

[15years]

I think they may also do the "splitting" with themselves. PwBPD have a poor sense of self and external things can either reinforce their positive self image or become the blame for their uncomfortable feelings. It's an odd cognitive dissonance. Yet, they want what any other person in their situation wants- a caring spouse and family but somehow there's a disconnect between their behavior and that.

I'd add that external things can also be a threat to their positive self image, and they need to bring in another external thing to blame. Or add some disordered thought to lessen the importance of that threat.

For example, homosexual men strangely seem to be a trigger for my wife.
Threath: homosexual men.
Reasons: They are not attracted to her, and the nature of the sexual relationship between two men triggers her.
Blame: Society's increasing acceptance, or me.
Disordered thinking to weaken the uncomfortable feeling: "No one is ACTUALLY gay and homosexuality is per definition abuse. I could make any gay man fall for me."

[Notwendy]

For example, homosexual men strangely seem to be a trigger for my wife.
Threath: homosexual men.
Reasons: They are not attracted to her, and the nature of the sexual relationship between two men triggers her.
Blame: Society's increasing acceptance, or me.
Disordered thinking to weaken the uncomfortable feeling: "No one is ACTUALLY gay and homosexuality is per definition abuse. I could make any gay man fall for me."

That seems odd considering her ideas about your heterosexuality- with her, with former girlfriends and her ideas about you feeling attracted to any woman on TV, or the movies, or co-workers. It's normal for people past the age of adolescence to feel sexual attraction. It's biology. It's how we behave about it that defines whether or not our behavior is abusive. Just noticing that someone is attractive isn't abusive.

Maybe her issue is with anyone who might feel attraction to someone?

[elmtree]

For example, homosexual men strangely seem to be a trigger for my wife.
Threath: homosexual men.
Reasons: They are not attracted to her, and the nature of the sexual relationship between two men triggers her.
Blame: Society's increasing acceptance, or me.
Disordered thinking to weaken the uncomfortable feeling: "No one is ACTUALLY gay and homosexuality is per definition abuse. I could make any gay man fall for me."

This is interesting, because in the case of my wife, she tends to be more comfortable around gay guys. I think it’s because she feels like they are not a threat and not competition to her. For example, I decided to get therapy so I convinced her to get therapy on her own as well. The therapist she picked is a young gay male.

[15years]

In fact, she tends to be drawn to gay men too but not sexually, but maybe now she has began to need them to be interested in her despite her not really being that much into them sexually.

[WBoase]

I walked on eggshells until I didn't. I just didn't have any more of it in me. pwBPDs can behave much better than than they allow themselves to. You just have to show them the boundary.