BPD, relationship choices, and revictimization/retraumatization

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

As I continue to try to come to terms with my situation... I'd like to write here about one aspect of what happened in my case that I don't see discussed here much. But I know I must not be alone in this kind of scenario.

People with BPD generally talk a lot about how they've been victimized. But it's also true that they often have genuinely been victimized more than average, and keep getting revictimized. Betrayal Blindness Theory really applies in this disorder - people who were victimized by a caregiver as children (e.g. with sexual abuse) can respond by developing blindness to people who will revictimize them; so they keep entering situations where they're manipulated and revictimized. That's certainly true of my ex - she had a long history of dating people with NPD, who went on to revictimize her in various ways (often disastrously). Basically, she kept repeating her original trauma.

Our 25 year relationship ended after an old lover of hers with NPD visited our city and began pursuing her, while she was really vulnerable - in the midst of a meltdown over a severe family crisis (her son had become meth addicted, suicidal, and homeless). The NPD guy popped up just after I left town for a month to take care of my uncle who was dying (so that my uncle could die at home with hospice). And just before that, in the midst of the crisis with her son, my ex had split me black - she had gone into rage, feeling helpless about her son's situation, and I was the closest thing to blame and lash out at.

The NPD guy is extremely manipulative (and married and cheating on his wife). My ex and I had been told by a family counselor that we should seek individual therapy, given the extreme stress around her son's situation. I got a therapist, and my ex tried to find one, but was ineffectual in going about it. Then the narcissist who was pursuing her offered to be her therapist (even though he has no training in therapy). So then he became her "therapist", and they worked through a popular book on trauma therapy, which gave him the perfect circumstances to manipulate her and sink his hooks in deeply. No-one in their right mind would have accepted this guy's offer to act as their therapist, but especially at that point, my ex wasn't in her right mind. After a couple months of this "therapy" plus love bombing, she began sleeping with him and then dumped me. A lot of other things my ex has told me really evince how manipulative and controlling this guy is, but she mostly doesn't seem to see it.

The relationship between my ex and me had been rough for most of its duration. There were a lot of aspects that were broken, and I was dealing with all the usual BPD behaviors. But it had begun to really improve in the years just before this happened, and we were enjoying each other's company again, and I was feeling renewed hope. Then her son's crisis hit, and NPD guy contacted her and began targeting her.

I actually don't feel a ton of anger at my ex, since I understand her disorder and why she made the choices that she did (the affair provided instant pain relief for her anguish about her son's situation, etc.). I do feel quite a lot of anger at NPD guy.

Any comments on BPDs' propensity for poor judgment, betrayal blindness, and revictimization/retraumatization, and how that played out in other people's cases, would be appreciated.

[Pensive1]

As I continue to try to come to terms with my situation... I'd like to write here about one aspect of what happened in my case that I don't see discussed here much. But I know I must not be alone in this kind of scenario.

People with BPD generally talk a lot about how they've been victimized. But it's also true that they often have genuinely been victimized more than average, and keep getting revictimized. Betrayal Blindness Theory really applies in this disorder - people who were victimized by a caregiver as children (e.g. with sexual abuse) can respond by developing blindness to people who will revictimize them; so they keep entering situations where they're manipulated and revictimized. That's certainly true of my ex - she had a long history of dating people with NPD, who went on to revictimize her in various ways (often disastrously). Basically, she kept repeating her original trauma.

Our 25 year relationship ended after an old lover of hers with NPD visited our city and began pursuing her, while she was really vulnerable - in the midst of a meltdown over a severe family crisis (her son had become meth addicted, suicidal, and homeless). The NPD guy popped up just after I left town for a month to take care of my uncle who was dying (so that my uncle could die at home with hospice). And just before that, in the midst of the crisis with her son, my ex had split me black - she had gone into rage, feeling helpless about her son's situation, and I was the closest thing to blame and lash out at.

The NPD guy is extremely manipulative (and married and cheating on his wife). My ex and I had been told by a family counselor that we should seek individual therapy, given the extreme stress around her son's situation. I got a therapist, and my ex tried to find one, but was ineffectual in going about it. Then the narcissist who was pursuing her offered to be her therapist (even though he has no training in therapy). So then he became her "therapist", and they worked through a popular book on trauma therapy, which gave him the perfect circumstances to manipulate her and sink his hooks in deeply. No-one in their right mind would have accepted this guy's offer to act as their therapist, but especially at that point, my ex wasn't in her right mind. After a couple months of this "therapy" plus love bombing, she began sleeping with him and then dumped me. A lot of other things my ex has told me really evince how manipulative and controlling this guy is, but she mostly doesn't seem to see it.

The relationship between my ex and me had been rough for most of its duration. There were a lot of aspects that were broken, and I was dealing with all the usual BPD behaviors. But it had begun to really improve in the years just before this happened, and we were enjoying each other's company again, and I was feeling renewed hope. Then her son's crisis hit, and NPD guy contacted her and began targeting her.

I actually don't feel a ton of anger at my ex, since I understand her disorder and why she made the choices that she did (the affair provided instant pain relief for her anguish about her son's situation, etc.). I do feel quite a lot of anger at NPD guy.

Any comments on BPDs' propensity for poor judgment, betrayal blindness, and revictimization/retraumatization, and how that played out in other people's cases, would be appreciated.

[524_316]

Very sorry you've gone through this. If you don't mind, all I can do is sort of echo back to you what you're saying, as non-judgmentally as I can.

It sounds like your ex (or current) cheated on you, and you are expressing a lot of understanding for her, making a lot of excuses and explanations for her actions.

What would happen if you held her accountable for what she does?

[Pensive1]

1. She's my ex (not current). A couple months after starting the affair, she revealed it to me (she apparently argued with the narcissist about that, because he didn't want her to, but she felt continued dishonesty with me was a violation of everything our relationship had stood for). And she dumped me to pursue her relationship with him as her primary relationship (and initially he was future-faking). She wanted to remain friends with me, and I did that for quite a while, hoping that she'd return, and more recently I cut non-essential contact with her.

2. I told her straight up that what she did was sh*tty. And it's clear she feels guilt, both regarding me and regarding the narcissist's wife. I don't excuse her actions, but I can understand them.

3. In general, I believe that people are doing the best they can, even if that sometimes isn't too great. I generally choose to hold a pretty nonjudgmental attitude toward others.

This board contains a lot of anger and essentializing language toward people's BPD exes, and I can certainly relate to that and understand it. But that is (mostly) not what I choose for myself.

4. I tend to have less empathy toward people with NPD, because their actions are largely egosyntonic. They often get more than their fair share, and, while hurting those around them, to a large degree don't suffer the consequences of their actions. People with untreated BPD tend to live lives full of pain, misery, self-loathing, and often self-abnegation, and many get repeatedly victimized, so I feel more empathy toward them (even if I'm determined to never date one again).

[524_316]

This board contains a lot of anger and essentializing language toward people's BPD exes, and I can certainly relate to that and understand it. But that is (mostly) not what I choose for myself.

I agree entirely on this. Everyone is on the whole spectrum of every trait, so "BPD" is just sort of a blurry configuration, a bucket of behavior that overlaps often with narcissism and other stuff, and fades in and out of intensity.

As others often point out, you can't change her mindset or save her. People with BPD traits are so good at putting the hooks of empathy and pity into people, that this is almost their specialty - recruiting saviors. Lord knows that's all they want. But you can't really change her mind any more than I can change your mind. The best you can do for your happiness is to change your own mind in such a way as to make yourself happier and better off.

So, what would happen if you considered her to be an adult who is 100% responsible for her own behavior, and intentionally chose to leave you and get with this other guy? And not at all "victimized." What would happen if you, in your own mind, held her entirely accountable for that?

[Pensive1]

re: "People with BPD traits are so good at putting the hooks of empathy and pity into people, that this is almost their specialty - recruiting saviors."
Yeah, I agree with this. And early on in my relationship with my ex, this was operative in my responses to her - but over time, far, far less so.

re: "So, what would happen if you considered her to be an adult who is 100% responsible for her own behavior, and intentionally chose to leave you and get with this other guy? And not at all "victimized.""
The thing is, that's not how I think people actually operate. And here I don't just mean people with BPD - I mean people in general. As a scientist, I don't actually believe in "free will". If I was fully in someone else's shoes, with the same life experiences, underlying inherited factors, etc., I'd be making the same choices as them.

This is clearer with severe mental illnesses (which is why we recognize these as mitigating factors in the criminal justice system), but I believe it's true in general. And the phenomena of repetition compulsion and betrayal blindness (which lead to revictimization among people who have experienced trauma) have overwhelming empirical/scientific support. And I'm not going to "choose" to try to believe something that I think is factually false just to make myself feel better (just as a don't choose to believe in a fictional anthropomorphic deity - though I don't intend offense to anyone in saying this).

[524_316]

I'm glad you were not offended by my comments. Since you're still replying, allow me to ask you, as a thought experiment:

What would happen (for YOU, not her) if you did hold her responsible and accountable for her own actions? I mean for YOU, and in you?

I am not trying to convince you that people are responsible for their own actions.. honest people can disagree on philosophy.

What if some part of you, let's say one tenth, really did hold her responsible (not a puppet of a deterministic universe) for her own decision to leave you and sleep with another guy, and a bad guy? What would be the effect in YOU if you held that belief?

[Pensive1]

re: "What if some part of you, let's say one tenth, really did hold her responsible (not a puppet of a deterministic universe) for her own decision to leave you and sleep with another guy..."

First I'll note - I don't view people as "puppets" (of a deterministic universe or anything else). I just think that people's choices are deterministic. And I'll note that in some sense, I already have held her accountable (e.g., telling her that what she did was sh*tty, etc.). As a tangential point I'll note that throughout our relationship, I didn't tell her what she wanted to hear, but always told her what I thought was true. In retrospect though, if I could do things over, I would have provided her more validation.

If I held more conventional (and I think simplistic) views of human decision-making, I'd probably be angrier at her than I am. I'd also be a quite different person than I am, since I'd have a very different fundamental belief system and set of values. I'd have more anger in general at people, and probably a more conventional conservative outlook. I don't think it would help me get over what happened more readily. I've seen plenty of people trapped in a place of anger and resentment (of course that includes people with BPD). As an aside I'll mention that I used to have much more anger when I was young (from growing up in a very abusive and dysfunctional household). My mother had BPD, which made me allergic to distortions of the truth; such that honesty and trying to be self-honest became a fundamental value for me.

[524_316]

As an aside I'll mention that I used to have much more anger when I was young (from growing up in a very abusive and dysfunctional household). My mother had BPD, which made me allergic to distortions of the truth; such that honesty and trying to be self-honest became a fundamental value for me.

Yeah I get the impression that you hold yourself to a very high standard, and maybe a higher standard than you hold her. If you had cheated on her, would you have held yourself accountable for that, or would you have just considered it an inevitable outcome of a deterministic universe?

Well, I get it; your ex is not responsible for her actions. It's a good setup for her, because she has this narcissist in the sack right now, and when he inevitably leaves her to go back to his wife or his next victim, you will very likely be there with a shoulder for her to cry on. Because she meets some diagnostic criteria for BPD. It's like she's got the handicapped sticker on her car and she gets to park close to entrance of the store.

You don't judge her, and you're NOT angry at her.

But how are YOU doing?

BTW my comments are not hypocritical, you can check my own posts, I can relate. Things just look different when it's someone else. I think you posted looking for someone to tell you that people with BPD are victims of their own disorder, and get re-victimized. That may be true, but she's not here - you are, and I'm talking to you.

When psychologists do "schema therapy" they very quickly get to the nitty-gritty of patterns we believe in about how things go with women, due to how they went in childhood. Dr. Tori Olds has a fantastic video series on youtube about this. I found it very eye-opening, or even eye-popping.

If your question is, how do I make a person with BPD not have BPD anymore - that's the one question that SHE needs to be asking, and won't. Unless you want to be posting questions on victims-of-BPD-people.com for the next 10 years, you need to be asking yourself what you need to change about yourself.

[Pensive1]

My last post somehow double-posted. Not sure how to delete it in entirety, so I just deleted the content of the post.

[Pensive1]

re: "Well, I get it; your ex is not responsible for her actions. It's a good setup for her, because she has this narcissist in the sack right now, and when he inevitably leaves her to go back to his wife or his next victim, you will very likely be there with a shoulder for her to cry on. Because she meets some diagnostic criteria for BPD. It's like she's got the handicapped sticker on her car and she gets to park close to entrance of the store."

At a certain point, I do find sarcasm and presumptions annoying.

re: "If you had cheated on her, would you have held yourself accountable for that, or would you have just considered it an inevitable outcome of a deterministic universe?"

Several months after she and I first got together, I left her to get back together with my ex-wife (we had just divorced), then decided I made a mistake and returned. A few years thereafter, I got into an emotional affair with another woman. It's not like I have a history that's pure as driven snow.

re: "I think you posted looking for someone to tell you that people with BPD are victims of their own disorder, and get re-victimized."

Again presumptions. And annoying. You appear to have relatively little understanding of why I posted.

re: "When psychologists do 'schema therapy' they very quickly get to the nitty-gritty of patterns we believe in about how things go with women, due to how they went in childhood."

I've read a great deal of schema therapy material, including a ton on this exact topic (with an eye to myself). I have Jeff Young's "Schema Therapy, A Practitioner's Guide" on my shelf and have read it through multiple times.

re: "If your question is, how do I make a person with BPD not have BPD anymore"

No, that's not my question either.
Incidentally, a year ago, I persuaded her to begin proper therapy, and she's attending a weekly DBT therapy group and seeing an individual therapist (at a center that specializes in treating personality disorders). I've seen some obvious benefit to her, though progress, as usual with this disorder, is quite slow. I also provided her with contact information for a woman who appears to have recovered fully from BPD and who serves as a BPD coach for others, though at this point, my ex hasn't availed herself of that.

And I've asked myself plenty about what I need to change about myself, I see a therapist weekly, have taken an Acceptance & Commitment Therapy course, and have changed some deeply ingrained patterns.

I've held my tongue and patience to this point, but the tone of some of your commentary, and assumptions that you seem so sure apply to me, are getting a bit much. I know that you're well intended, but...

[Pensive1]

Deleted duplicate post.

[Pensive1]

P.S. I'm not looking for someone to tell me "that people with BPD are victims of their own disorder, and get re-victimized."

That's something I already fully know, from personal experience and from books, articles in the professional literature, videos, etc. I don't need someone to tell me this or validate it.

E.g. My longterm best friend (of well over two decades) is a woman who was sexually abused by a narcissist as a child, who then developed Dissociative Identity Disorder (which has some substantial symptomatic overlap wih BPD). She serially dated narcissists, with each relationship doing further damage to her mental health. In how she acted out, she hurt a couple guys pretty deeply. She was determined to break the pattern and heal, and after a decade of intensive therapy is fully recovered. This is not someone I'm romantically involved with or attracted to - she's just a very good friend.

My ex was sexually abused by a malignant narcissist parent as a child, was then abused by a predatory narcissistic high school teacher, and then repeatedly recapitulated a pattern of abusive relationships with narcissists as an adult. I'll incidentally note that her current relationship has been triggering severe BPD symptoms (e.g. extreme dissociation) of types that I never witnessed in our 25 years together.

The professional literature is replete with this kind of stuff (case studies, statistical analyses, etc.).

What I was looking for was discussion from any individuals who have been through scenarios similar to my own (with my ex) in this regard.

[Pensive1]

I thought I'd add a bit more context.

I've said to my ex, multiple times, that she betrayed me. The first time I said that to her, she acknowledged that she had. On subsequent occasions, she rationalized her actions.

My therapist does see my ex as manipulated and victimized by the guy, but also noted that people can be complicit in their own victimization. I agree with that perspective, in my ex's case.

My ex has had a very unusually high lifetime number of sexual partners. She has never had difficulty finding men, when she's wanted that. When we got together, there were multiple interested men circling about her.

Over the course of our 25 year relationship, she often threatened to leave. But while we were in a relationship, she never sought, or even flirted with, other men, up until recent events.

Two years ago, the NPD guy reached out to her, then pursued her. They had been lovers when they were young adults, but she has absolutely no memories of a sexual/romantic nature, involving him, from that period - she has apparent complete dissociative amnesia around this, potentially hiding painful or unpleasant memories from herself. After he tracked her down two years ago and pursued her, on the evening before they initially slept together, she apparently expressed major qualms and the situation triggered a severe dissociative episode for her, but the guy persisted and they ended up sleeping together. Then the affair took off like a supernova, with both of them idealizing each other.

[GlennT]

Very impressive how much you've learned and know now. I feel sorry for the both of you.. and I can see why she stayed faithful to you for 25 years. I know how very difficult and hard it is to avoid and resist that love-bombing during a vulnerable time. Poor folks are locked right into their rollercoaster ride and can't get off until their thrown off. This is a long-shot but, do you think this attraction to the married narc, may be a guide, leading her to the ideal psychological solution, she instinctively and subconsciously really needs, yet avoided so long? Once again, you have my deepest sympathy.

[Pensive1]

Thanks for your kind response, GlennT.

re: "This is a long-shot but, do you think this attraction to the married narc, may be a guide, leading her to the ideal psychological solution, she instinctively and subconsciously really needs, yet avoided so long?"

I don't know, but I would hope so.

After "therapy" with the narc, she was resistant to getting actual professional therapy. But she continued having distressing mental health issues, with a lot of apparent triggering by the narc.

I read somewhere, in a forum, that you can't get an unwilling person to go to therapy, except by modeling as a positive example. And that actually is how it played out in our case. I was doing therapy very intensively with a professional therapist, and it resulted in major positive changes in myself. My ex saw that (the dramatic positive effect it had on me), and it caused her to become open to professional therapy. And I looked for a center doing DBT, and my ex signed up and began doing group DBT and individual therapy.

One thing that's striking in my ex's case, and common among people with BPD, is how much her beliefs at any given point in time reflect her feelings at that moment, with little mooring in analytical thought (and problems with object constancy). After the initial pure love-bombing phase, the guy she's with has been alternating between hot and cold. About six months ago, she herself was saying that he has NPD. Most recently he's been love-bombing her again (after expressing some concern that she might end the affair), and now, amidst the love-bombing, she's insisting that he's not a narcissist. But she still does recognize that he's very "bossy" and that this is an issue in their relationship (he's actually extremely controlling).