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VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?" Parental alienation is when a parent allows a child to participate or hear them degrade the other parent. This is not uncommon in divorces and the children often adjust. In severe cases, however, it can be devastating to the child. This video provides a helpful overview.
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M604V
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Relationship status: Married
Posts: 65


« on: October 03, 2023, 12:13:47 PM »

Feel free to respond if you'd like.  I do love hearing from the group, but this is really just an attempt to get things out of head so I can get back to enjoying my only day off.

The last few weeks have been relatively uneventful in my house, at least as far as my marriage is concerned.  Keeping things calm, and staying in my lane, has allowed me to keep the noise down and really pay attention to what I'm doing, thinking and feeling.

I've spent years trying to crack the code.  Trying to figure out what it would take for her to be "happy".  I recognized early on that there were holes in her life, empty spots in her soul that, although I didn't cause them, I would accept responsibility for filling them.

From early days I allowed the lines to get crossed, the boundaries to get blurred.  I never knew how to say "no", had no capacity to assess a situation and say: "I wish you the best of luck but this is more than I can handle."  I can look back and admit that I ignored a number of serious red flags. Thus I quickly became embroiled in her mess and went from spectator to co-conspirator to perpetrator almost immediately.

Concurrently, I subscribed to the myth that I'll be happy if and only if she's happy.  That if she's good that must mean I'm good; if she's a happy wife then I must be a happy husband.  I was unable to view myself as myself; all I knew was her assessment of me.  Little did I know that I was dealing with someone who was incapable of seeing me as me.  All she could see was a reflection of her own turmoil, which she finds disgusting and painful and traumatic. And for all my efforts all I've really managed to do is work myself into such an emotional and psychological frenzy that I become incapable of making anyone happy, least of all myself.

What do I want? I want to live in a world where I'm respected and appreciated.  When appropriate I want to hear "thank you", "I understand", "I apologize", "I appreciate you".  I trust myself to be a good person who does good things most of the time.  Certainly not perfect but I know where my heart is.  I know that I'm committed to my marriage and my family and am devoted to doing right by them as best I can.  All I ask in return is that I be treated as such.  Not yelled and screamed at, not subjected to days of silent treatment, not threatened with divorce, etc.  That's not the behavior of someone who respects and appreciates me, thus I don't want it. 

What does she want?  I have no clue.  I assume that she wants the same things as me.  I think most people simply want a place in which they feel safe, where they can relax and let their guard down.  Where they're not at risk of being attacked, at least not from the inside.  So I assume that's what she wants but really I have no idea.  I doubt she does either. 

So then how can I or anyone really help her get what she wants?  Sounds impossible.  In the meantime, based on what I've learned of BPD, I'll be standing here with a bullseye on my chest just waiting for the next time she needs to offload her sh*t on to me. 

I'm becoming less and less optimistic about the future of my marriage.  Honestly I just don't see it working out.  I know what I would need for this to continue and it seems like a tall order.  I freely accept that marriage isn't 50/50; it's 10/90, 90/10 and anywhere in between.  There will be days when I have to carry her load and some days where she has to pick up the slack.  Except I realize now that my willingness to go over and above--hell, just meet her halfway--diminishes day by day.  In order to do that, to sacrifice, to bite my tongue, to put my wants aside for hers, I have to forget about the last shi*ty thing she did, the nasty thing she said, the time she treated me like crap and never apologized for it or otherwise acknowledged it.  And that pile just keeps growing so that, in essence, I find myself having to push aside the last 15 years of crap just to agree to pick up Starbucks on my way home.

Simply put: I'm bitter and resentful and angry.  Those are my feelings and are likely to stay that way.  I'm not bitter at her bad behavior, per se.  No one is perfect and we all do rotten things. I'm pissed that it's never been acknowledged. Even when I've stared her straight in the face and said "I'm hurting and it's because of XYZ that you did," it's met with a blank stare.  So I've accepted that these are my crosses to bear, but so is the choice to put them down. I think that's what I need to do.

She's mentioned marriage counseling a few times in the last few weeks.  I'm more than willing to go.  We've gone before but it didn't amount to much.  But I'm still willing to give it a try especially because she brought it up on her own.  However, the other day I asked if she had any luck finding anyone.  "No," she said, "it's really hard. The website is hard to use."  That's a crock.  My wife is a talented nurse with years of experience in a number of different settings.  She can find a therapist in a matter of hours if she really tried. 

What now?  First I'm going to detach.  Detach with love, as they say in Al-Anon, but detach nonetheless.  Just go cold to it.  I can't control what she does or thinks but I can limit my exposure to it so that's what I'll do.  I guess that's how I can avoid the attacks and at the same time avoid from getting my hopes up.  Just become disconnected from it.  I'm going to stop trying to buy her love and approval; I don't think it was ever for sale to begin with.

And I'm just going to take things as they come, as they are.  She has all the information; I've told her how I felt, what I want, what I think, who I am, on multiple occasions. Despite her challenges she is generally a healthy, capable, intelligent person who has a whole host of resources available to her.  She is free to choose what she wants.  I need to stop trying to analyze it and figure it out.  I just need to accept what she gives me and choose accordingly, i.e. no marriage counselor means it wasn't important enough for her to find one.  I just need to invest in myself and our children and start preparing myself for the next step, right?
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Smedley Butler
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Posts: 89


« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2023, 01:06:22 PM »

your story continues to mirror my own, to an almost uncanny degree.
Excerpt
Except I realize now that my willingness to go over and above--hell, just meet her halfway--diminishes day by day.  In order to do that, to sacrifice, to bite my tongue, to put my wants aside for hers, I have to forget about the last shi*ty thing she did, the nasty thing she said, the time she treated me like crap and never apologized for it or otherwise acknowledged it.  And that pile just keeps growing so that, in essence, I find myself having to push aside the last 15 years of crap just to agree to pick up Starbucks on my way home.
yep.  i find myself having to pretend that each day is a single serving day.  what happened yesterday or five years ago, well, i just have to not think about that.  and likewise, i have to assume that anything good, kind, helpful, thoughtful, supportive, etc that i do today exists only in today, she has no emotional capacity to remember my goodness today, tomorrow.  there is no emotional depth in this type of relationship, which is why i, like you, have basically detached. 
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M604V
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What is your sexual orientation: Straight
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Relationship status: Married
Posts: 65


« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2023, 01:42:40 PM »

Throughout my adult life, especially in my marriage and my previous career as a cop, this metaphor has come to mind (and oh how I love a good metaphor):

It’s like you spend all day at the arcade, dumping quarters into the various games. High score after high score. Your pockets overflowing with tickets. You know that the prize you’re gonna get isn’t worth what you spent on the games but who cares? At least it’s something. At least they understand that it feels kind of reciprocal, right? “This guy dropped $100 on these cheesy games, we should give him something for his efforts.”

You excitedly carry your tickets to the counter, ready to exchange them for some prizes. “Look at me! Look at what I did! I’m good and I have the tickets to prove it!”

Except there’s no one there to take them. No prizes, no candy, no nothing. No one to recognize the trouble you went to, no one there holding up their end of the bargain. You’re out two hours, $100, you have a pocket of worthless paper and no one’s there to even acknowledge it let along reward you.

If a tree falls on an arcade and no one is there to reward you with some plastic army men, what’s the point?
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M604V
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What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 65


« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2023, 06:27:33 AM »

@Smedley you’re so right. There is no consistency, no connection from one day to the next. A good day today has no bearing on tomorrow. I understand that life isn’t that simple…or is it? Shouldn’t it be that simple? Isn’t life just a collection of days? I don’t know, seems like you should be able to string a couple good days together and build some momentum.

Sometimes I picture this life like one of those Lotto machines you see on TV, the clear plastic box with all the balls bouncing around. There’s good days rattling around in there and some bad ones too. Which one’s gonna pop up? No one really knows.

Funny, sometimes when she’s going off on me I’ll ask her: “What’s the last good thing I did?”  I have yet to get an answer.

What’s the point? What’s the end game? I feel like a pwBPD has no end game. It’s moment to moment. There’s no goal, thus there’s no plan, no pattern. There’s no recipe or structure or set of rules. It’s just running from one emotion to the next, and none of them feels good or nets them the result they want, at least not long term. I’m along for the ride, trying to do my best (or trying hard to try hard, anyway). All I can really manage to do is *justify* her feelings, not soothe them. I think that must bring her comfort more than anything. She’d rather suspect that I’m a bastard and eventually be proven right, instead of living optimistically, with eyes wide open, and be pleasantly surprised that she actually has a decent life.

I’ve gradually been getting better at being indifferent to it. Little by little. I think I’ve come to accept that how she views and treats me has just as much to do with her state of mind as it does my behavior. So screw it, might as well go golfing instead of cleaning the house.  At least one of us will be in a good mood.

I’ve spent a lot of time running around, just trying to pad my résumé. Trying to get as much stuff on the “good husband” side of the ledger, preparing for the eventual audit. “See? I’m good! Look at what I’ve done!”.  It doesn’t seem to matter though. Sure, I can buy myself a good day here or there. Sex sometimes, occasionally a kind word. It sucks though, knowing that there’s a storm lurking on the horizon at all times. I don’t just mean a bad day, I mean a fu>king tornado. Screaming and name-calling. Threatening to leave. Disappearing for hours. All the while she’s completely blind to the impact it has on those around her. Or maybe she is aware, she just thinks that she’s earned the right, or that we deserve to be yanked back and forth like this.

I feel sorry for her, I really do.

Again: what’s the point? What is anyone getting out of this? I have something to be hopeful for, I guess, and that’s actually enough to fuel me sometimes. It’s something to wish for, something to aspire to. Maybe things will turn around, and I can think of no better reward than to crack this fu>king code and ride off into the sunset. Her? Not quite sure. I figure this is a nice emotional playground for her, like a psychological landfill. She gets to keep the feelings she wants to have and dump the unwanted ones on her convenient scapegoat. She knows eventually I’ll do something wrong and she can say “Ha! I knew it! It was never my fault, see?”

I have spent a fair amount of time fantasizing lately. Fantasizing about a modest apartment, just me and the dog and the kids a few days a week. Fantasizing about how much happier I could be, what it would be like to be free from this responsibility. The responsibility for her feelings, her behavior, the future, the kids future, having to devote energy “double-parenting” because she’s decided to check the f>ck out for the day or the week of the month. What would that be like? What would it be like to just be responsible for me?

I’ve accepted that I don’t want to just *live* my life but I want to attack it. To celebrate it. To enjoy it and have fun and be proud and comfortable. To pay myself on the back even if no one will. I read a lot about communication techniques and coping strategies and all that. F>ck all that. I can’t devote another second trying to manage my life with someone who can’t even muster a simple “sorry”.  Cooperatively? Sure, *we* can work on *we* problems all day. I’m fine with that. But I don’t want to be jumping around from SET to DEARMAN to whatever-other-acronym just pulling at straws.  It’s just another example of me taking responsibility for her behavior, my behavior, and managing the fall out. Screw that. She’s a grown woman and should take charge of herself. “Oh shoot, I did well on support but maybe my truth statement was a little off.”  She’s not a colicky infant, she’s an adult human. She has enough resources and opportunities and information at her disposal to make an informed decision. And if she doesn’t choose health, and it’s because there’s something perhaps pathological blocking her decision-making, then what chance do I have?

“So tell me who I have to be
To gain some reciprocity?
Cause no one’s hurt me more than you
And no one ever will.”
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Cat Familiar
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« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2023, 12:09:35 PM »

I hear you, M604V.

I, too, once found meaning in my existence, thinking that I was bringing joy to my husband. It’s a powerful reward, when given.

Unfortunately when you have a spouse with BPD, they are unable to fill up their cup with happiness, so you end up pouring a continuous flow into a leaky cup, until you just get worn out.

I’d put so much energy into trying to make things better with him, that I forgot about what gives me joy.

I posted this on another thread. It seems apropos here:

I’m well-versed in the anger and resentment territory. I’ve struggled to overcome it, telling myself I should just forgive him.

But when the verbal assaults continue unchecked, forgiveness is difficult to find. I easily forgive others when there is accountability, behavioral change, and remorse. Unfortunately with pwBPD, often there is none of the above.

So, it’s perplexed me. What do I do with this load of anger and resentment I’ve carried for a while?

If I cannot talk with him without further *hurting his feelings* or engendering anything from pouting to a tantrum, what do I do with my feelings on this?

Talking to a therapist has helped. Posting here has helped. Still I’m a long way from *forgiveness*. I’m not even sure exactly what forgiveness looks like. Certainly I’ve arrived at a place where I no longer feel *wounded* but at the same time, I’ve got a good memory for the unpleasantness I endured from him.

Lately I’ve been taking some quiet time to reflect back upon all the cumulative verbal assaults and remembering each one from the beginning of our relationship. Some may benefit from writing this as an exercise, but I’m quite comfortable doing this as a thought exercise.

What I’ve realized is that even at the outset, there were so many incidents of “casual cruelty”—nothing that really rises to the level of abuse, just minor incidents of disrespect, thoughtlessness, selfishness. I ignored these incidents when they happened, but it’s interesting that years later, I can recall them clearly.

The irony is that he is so solicitous and obsequious to acquaintances and strangers, and would never speak to them in such a way.

This thought exercise examined many years of these incidents, minor and major, and I recalled my behavior, either exacerbating the drama or actively ignoring the insult…typically none of it good or effective.

Needless to say, I’m a big fan of dredging things up, analyzing them, but I’ve found that it serves no good purpose to share this with him, and have found that doing that as a solitary exercise has been freeing.

I believe that the past must be looked at, and understood, before I can let it go. And what I’ve learned in doing this is how much I’ve disrespected myself.

Appeasement doesn’t work, yet those of us who were trained in our family of origin to be people pleasers, just keep trying it again and again, even though it fails spectacularly.

Lately my attitude is that *this is what I’m dealing with* and I’m no longer willing to put up with  Cursing - won't cause site restrictions at Starbucks (click to insert in post) just to keep the peace. That said, I’m also not willing to participate in his drama. This requires that I be able to tolerate him being unhappy when I politely exit conversations that are spiraling downwards. I no longer am willing to play the subservient role, nor not call out disrespectful comments.

Last night, when being accused of unwillingness to talk with him, I said, “I’m happy to continue the conversation as long as you speak with civility to me.” He checked himself, and then continued for a while. When he started becoming snarky, I called that to his attention, saying that was crossing the line. I could see that it took a lot of effort on his part to control his emotions and communicate without blame and anger, but he did it.

As far as the *rules*—you are an active participant in your own enslavement. Does following the rules make things better, or does it just validate that they’re justified and therefore cause more rules to be in place?
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“The Four Agreements  1. Be impeccable with your word.  2. Don’t take anything personally.  3. Don’t make assumptions.  4. Always do your best. ”     ― Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom
ForeverDad
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Relationship status: separated 2005 then divorced
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You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...


« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2023, 02:13:07 PM »

Unfortunately when you have a spouse with BPD, they are unable to fill up their cup with happiness, so you end up pouring a continuous flow into a leaky cup, until you just get worn out.

Similar examples are described here:

Over in our Topic discussing The Bridge there is a post there about The Backyard Black Hole.  (If you haven't read The Bridge, then please read it too.)

The Bridge
The Backyard Black Hole

In short, no matter what you do or say to comply, appease or whatever, there is little if anything you can do to help long term ... unless your spouse wants and tries to improve herself.  Only a very few can do so without experienced guides by means of intensive therapy.
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M604V
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Relationship status: Married
Posts: 65


« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2023, 12:47:41 PM »

Thank you Cat. I like that a lot, and I really appreciate it.

Your message was very refreshing to read.. I read a lot of the posts here and I get where people are coming from. I hear a lot about patience and compassion and forgiveness, about various tactics and strategies, what to say and how to say it. I get it, it makes sense, and I hope for those who employ these strategies that they work.

But I’m too goddam tired. Worn out, like you said. Worn out from waiting. Waiting for her to be the wife and mother that I want. That I deserve and the kids deserve, and the one that I know she can be. Worn out from applying for the job of husband over and over and over and over again.  I wish she would just fire me.

I’m worn out from the anxiety brought on by the uncertainty of what each day is going to bring. I’m at work today, and my sons friends mom reached out seeing if my son can come play. I referred her to my wife because I’m not home. And then the uneasy feeling in my stomach set in. I got no response from the mom or my wife which I’m pretty sure means that my wife didn’t respond to the mom. I’m going to get home in an hour to find that she “doesn’t feel well”, didn’t respond to the mom and my son missed out on another chance to be a kid. I feel so responsible for their childhood and this will set me off, if I’m right.

Forgiveness? What even is forgiveness? In simple terms I know, of course. And I hear all those platitudes like: “forgiveness is the gift you give yourself” and blah blah blah. For me forgiveness is about grace and compassion, for sure. But forgiveness is also about drawing a line in the sand. Implementing and enforcing a boundary, a rule. “You did wrong. You’ve sought forgiveness. I forgive you. Don’t do it again.”  Forgiveness in a BPD relationship?

<slap>
“I forgive you.”
<slap>
“I forgive you”
<slap slap>
“I forgive you.”
<SLAP SLAP>
“I forgive you.”

Is that forgiveness? Or is that servility? Can you actually forgive someone who 1) never sought forgiveness, 2) is going to hurt you again and 3) believes their injury to you is actually your fault? I mean what’s the fvcking point of forgiving someone who can’t even hear your forgiveness anyway? And who’s bound to revictimize anyway? What’s the point?

And I don’t want to hear the platitudes. I don’t want to hear about love and acceptance and all that. If love was the answer then I wouldn’t be writing this. I’ve loved and loved and loved and loved some more and it hasn’t gotten me anywhere. Not where I want to be anyway.

Have I disrespected myself, like you said? Maybe. Not sure. I suppose post-mortem it looks that way; I don’t know if that’s what it was in those moments. I thought I was investing in something. Making tiny deposits over and over again. Setting an example.  Proving myself.  When I first started down this road 15 years ago I had no idea it was a dead end, or a roundabout with no exit. I had no clue.

I hate what all of this has turned me into. I hate that I have to hide myself. A coworker once told me: “You know what I’ve always noticed about you? You’re either all in or all out. There’s no in between.”  And he’s right. I believe the life best lived is the one where you’re all in. Fully committed, open, vulnerable, risking it, trying it, diving right in. But I can’t do that in my house. I have to stifle myself, eat my words, peel around every corner, because I can’t take another slap from her. I can’t ask for help again and not receive it. I can’t seek support and not get it. I can’t make another attempt at connection and watch her turn away. So instead I tiptoe. I keep it to myself and I hold it in. What kind of life is that?

I have one of those car-tracking GPS things in my Amazon cart. I haven’t brought myself to purchase it yet. I don’t really suspect she’s unfaithful, but there’s a part of me that wants her to be. I’ll take anything definitive, even if it’s heartbreaking.
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ForeverDad
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Relationship status: separated 2005 then divorced
Posts: 18240


You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...


« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2023, 06:08:30 PM »

Forgiveness? What even is forgiveness? In simple terms I know, of course. And I hear all those platitudes like: “forgiveness is the gift you give yourself” and blah blah blah. For me forgiveness is about grace and compassion, for sure. But forgiveness is also about drawing a line in the sand. Implementing and enforcing a boundary, a rule. “You did wrong. You’ve sought forgiveness. I forgive you. Don’t do it again.”  Forgiveness in a BPD relationship?

<slap>
“I forgive you.”
<slap>
“I forgive you”
<slap slap>
“I forgive you.”
<SLAP SLAP>
“I forgive you.”

My view is that, to a certain extent, forgiveness in a relationship should be merited.  Is the other contrite?  Will the other try diligently not to do/say it again?

Of course, there's the Biblical example, "Father, forgive them for they do not know what they are doing". (Luke 23:34)  But in your case is it a matter of you forgiving someone who has no idea of the greater meaning and move on with your life, never to see the person again.  This is a person regularly if not daily in your life.

I've sometimes commented that if "forgiveness" does not feel appropriate, then you can always Let Go and then Move On with your life.
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JazzSinger
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« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2023, 09:55:19 AM »

I totally get it. I feel for you.  I’m living a similar life.

Before you can heal from one shot, here comes another.  Sometimes the “flavor” is different, but it’s still a single serving of crap you could live without. 

Not easy.   

More self-care helps.  Take care of you.   People here are quite helpful and supportive too. 

One day at a time.
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M604V
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« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2023, 05:14:31 PM »

I appreciate your replies and I agree with what you’ve said, generally speaking.

I’d like to forgive, I really would. The second she well and truly acknowledges her responsibilities and the impact of her behavior and asks for forgiveness she’ll get it from me. Instantly.

That’s not self-righteousness talking I don’t think. I don’t picture myself hoarding all the forgiveness, refusing to dole it out until she drops to her knees and repents. It’s just that forgiveness, in that respect, really has no place in the saga that has become my marriage. She’s never asked for it because she doesn’t think she’s done anything to requires forgiveness. Thus the act of love, grace, compassion and understanding that is forgiving someone is, in fact, meaningless. It’s an empty gesture.

So, then, what to do with this anger and resentment? Or more aptly: sadness and disappointment. Because that’s what jt really is, let’s be honest. I’m disappointed in her, disappointed that I couldn’t do enough to make this better. Im sad knowing that I’ve spent a lot of time investing in something that probably won’t pay off. Im sad knowing that it will have to get worse before it can get better, and that it involves hurting my children and disrupting their lives.

I’m disappointed to know that I was right: she “didn’t feel well” (cramps) and my son missed out on a chance to hang with his buddy. I’m sad and frustrated to know that I alone am responsible for their childhood and trying to make it as rich and healthy and fun as possible.



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