Validating vs Enabling

[Strawberry29]

This is something I have ever been struggling with: validating without enabling.

In the past I always tended to err on the latter side (risking becoming an "enabler"), always forgiving everything and acting as my brother wanted. I have recently started trying to be stricter, but this creates problems with my validation.

For example, let's say the BPD person starts saying that they have been mistreated, and they are just reacting to this. Say you don't really think they were treated badly, and that the other people just had normal reactions towards their behavior. In order to validate I think you should always start by saying something like "I am sorry, it must be difficult to live with this" or similar. But if I don't think it is really true that the behavior they received was wrong, I guess I cannot just say anything like "I am sorry you had to go through this". Sentences like "I am sorry you feel this way" seem bad to me, and I know from experience they won't solve anything.

How do you usually manage to validate the feelings of your family mamber with BPD without conceding on things you think are important and should not be encouraged?

[kells76]

Hi Strawberry29  I think few of us here want to agree with things we don't believe are true, so you raise a good question.

For example, let's say the BPD person starts saying that they have been mistreated, and they are just reacting to this. Say you don't really think they were treated badly, and that the other people just had normal reactions towards their behavior. In order to validate I think you should always start by saying something like "I am sorry, it must be difficult to live with this" or similar. But if I don't think it is really true that the behavior they received was wrong, I guess I cannot just say anything like "I am sorry you had to go through this". Sentences like "I am sorry you feel this way" seem bad to me, and I know from experience they won't solve anything.

Zooming in to details of phrasing, one option I've used leans on the conditional (I think!) tense:

"That would feel really bad if someone said that to me", or

"I would hate it if someone reacted to me like that", or

"Anyone would feel upset like you do, if that happened to them". or

"It would be so painful to experience that reaction from someone"

You aren't agreeing that it happened that way, but you are thinking about -- if it did happen, what that would be like.

And that kind of zooms out to the bigger picture -- what a pwBPD may want in an interaction like that.

It's possible to practice finding the feelings behind the words. A pwBPD may express hurt or loneliness in maladaptive ways or with unhelpful language. When your pwBPD says something like "I've been so mistreated", rather than focusing on the chosen words, I wonder if you could practice identifying the likely feeling behind the words -- maybe something like "he may be expressing loneliness or hurt" -- and targeting that feeling instead of the content of the statement.

Another part of the bigger picture is thinking about how validation is less of a "magic wand" to solve things for others, and more of an approach to keep things from escalating and help the other person with "emotional special needs" feel more heard. At the end of a conversation involving validation, your pwBPD may still be feeling upset or victimized, and that doesn't mean validation "doesn't work" -- it could just mean that you have listened as best you could and still declined to solve their life problems.

That's yet another part of the bigger picture -- you get to decide how long you are able to stay in those conversations. You may hit a limit if your pwBPD continues to push for agreement. You get to decide to say things like "Wow, overall that sounded so difficult. Even though I have to go walk the dog now, I'm confident you'll think of a way forward", or "I'm glad you felt like you could share that with me. I have to go make dinner; I'll be interested to hear what you figured out when I call you tomorrow at 5pm", etc.

The pwBPD feeling like their problem is solved, isn't the sign that you did everything right or validated correctly 

You can validate the valid as a way to keep the conversation from boiling over and to try to listen more effectively to your loved one. And, you can decide to lovingly end the conversation, whenever you need to, regardless of what feels solved or not.

Curious what you think?

[Strawberry29]

This is very helpful, thanks kell!
Yes, I suppose it is quite common. Initially I was probably just letting false things fly by for fear of his reactions, but now I am sometimes scared about using the wrong words to contradict.

I think the key part is that I have to realise, as you say, that the end of the conversation will very unlikely be that we are all happy and agreeing on everything... And that I just need to try and be constructive, but leave whenever I feel this is going nowhere/somehow hurting me? I think if I know well my brother, he would go a bit crazy if I left the converstaion like this, he tends to require conversations to go on and on for hours... But I can think of a nice way of doing it!

I generally know the reason for how he feels about things, problem is these are things that are difficult, if not impossible, to solve. I have already told him several times my view on how to solve his problems, but he does not hear me, and of course that's his right. (As it is mine to say "in that case, I have nothing more to add", I suppose).

[livednlearned]

I have struggled with this too.

There are some good tips in the Lundstrom book about asking validating questions, including some that are simply, "Oh?" or "How so?" The purpose is to validate while putting accountability back on the person.

In Shari Manning's book, she discusses BPD adult children who get stuck in a blame loop with parents, "You forced me to xyz" and her suggestion is to say (when it's a rumination or false accusation), "So where do we go from here?"

How do you think your brother might respond if you were to ask him something along those lines? "I can understand feeling hurt." Then add a solution/action-oriented statement, "Do you have someone you can talk to about this?" "What does your therapist recommend?" "What happened next?" "Are you planning to say/do something to follow up?"

I'm not 100 percent certain of this, but sometimes I think I was able to neutralize part of the ... drive ... my stepdaughter (26) had to engage me in dramas by being a very good but unsatisfying listener. She actually helped me realize that I tend to overfunction when someone feels victimized. Her two siblings (SD29 and SS24) separately told me they stopped offering advice because doing so opened the door to fights initiated by SD26.

SS24 has started to say to people that he does not give advice, period. He has a BPD mom and sister and has decided it's better to lay low  

[HappyChappy]

Good thread and some good responses.

"Validate the valid, not the invalid." and feelings are valid, but you can validate the feeling without debating whether it's justified. My BPD won't stop until she gets agreement on her "false new" so we just change the subject.

If others in the family / room are supporting this, then you're in a "toxic" environment and need to leave. Because if you take the bate, you often lose the argument it's why this technique is effective.

If you've ever experienced prejudice of any type, that's how the majority tend to bully the minority. Trigger you until you "lose it" and then point to that as unreasonable behaviour. Lawyers use this technique. In the UK, footballers take the knee in support of BLM. And the racists still threw bananas at them and complained "Don't bring politics into football" but it's worked, because they ignored it.

[Notwendy]

With my own BPD mother- her goal of taking victim position is to not be accountable for anything. Whatever she does, she must be innocent. She is very skilled at "excuses" for whatever.

The goal for her is to get agreement. So any kind of "calling her out" on any behavior is a circular discussion until she "wins" and she will win because of this pattern.

It just feels crazy making to try.

A discussuion with her brought up her accusation at a care plan meeting for the skilled nursing facility where she maintained that her family was "dumping" her there.

I explained that this isn't possible- families don't decide if someone needs this level of care- one has to be considered to need the care and that is determined by professional assessment- her doctors,PT, etc.

The entire conversation on her part was manipulative. One role is ignorance "I didn't know that - thank you for informing me" (BS she knows it was a lie). Then "oh I was just kidding" (not exactly a joke to do that).

And then the one that absolves her "Well I was feeling that way" or "that is the way I heard it".

It's as if there is some "force field" around her- that is not possible to get through to her that her behavior is connected to her relationships with people. She will complain that the staff at her assisted living is "mean to her". I can guess why that is- she isn't nice to them but that isn't accounted for.

Validation does work with her. She likes it, but to differentiate between validating the valid and invalid doesn't  work with her. It's all valid to her.

I think the difference is with us. If we validate what we think isn't valid, then we are not being authentic. We are enabling. So while this may not have an impact on the pwBPD- it does make a difference to us. If we are being enabling or co-dependent- then we become resentful. I think Kells is correct that validation isn't a magic wand. It is a relationship tool that can reduce drama in the moment and help us keep our own perspective but the pwBPD relates at their own ability.

[once removed]

when im dealing with a difficult person, a loved one, or someone i believe is the type of personality (or even just someone who has been through the wringer) who "needs a little extra validation", i dont usually stop and think to myself "validate this person". sometimes, sure, but i find that usually if im approaching it that way, im probably talking down to them.

validation that is forced, will usually result in either invalidation (this is where, on the relationship boards, youll see members trying it, and their loved ones call them out for using "therapist speak" or sounding like a robot), or enabling, or both. first and foremost, i remember that im dealing with an adult. it may be a "special needs" adult (or literally a child, but its not helpful to talk down to children either), but a person with thoughts, feeling, and autonomy. i think of the posts on twitter i see, that say things like "in case you needed to hear this today, your existence is valid! your thoughts and your feelings matter!". really? my existence is valid? thanks for that, i guess, i wasnt sure 

if you think about it (like livednlearned mentioned), there are so many ways to actively validate a person without reaching for a phrase like "im sorry you feel that way". active listening. touch. spending time just being with a person. resisting the urge to fix their problems. a personal gift that makes someone feel seen. certainly, words, and really overall communication, can be an important part of that, too.

i dont treat validation as a solution to a conflict or as a prescription for dealing with someone. i treat it as a broader part of my relationship with each individual (the relationship we have, the language we use, all of the context, may differ from person to person), and of my relationships as a whole.

i find, for the most part, if i think more in terms of "dont be invalidating", i am most likely naturally validating.

For example, let's say the BPD person starts saying that they have been mistreated, and they are just reacting to this.

how i would respond to this depends entirely on my relationship with them, and what i sense they are communicating/asking of me.

Say you don't really think they were treated badly, and that the other people just had normal reactions towards their behavior.

in some of my relationships, where there is a context of trust, where i sense that they are actually soliciting my take on things, i might say exactly that! with another person, i might simply ask questions, that help them consider their and other perspectives. with another person, i might just practice active listening; sometimes thats the most validating thing you can possibly do. just listen, and give them the space to talk. just dont invalidate them.

so, before i reach for validation, i reach for the concept of listening with empathy, in the context of my relationship to them. that helps me to know, what is the underlying feeling/need this person is communicating to me? that tells me what, if anything, to validate, and how.

[livednlearned]

I love what onceremoved wrote -- there has to be authenticity to validation, and that can be challenging when reality is being distorted beyond recognition.

How do you usually manage to validate the feelings of your family mamber with BPD without conceding on things you think are important and should not be encouraged?

This might actually be more of a boundaries thing. If you create a validating environment in as much of your family member's life as you realistically can, and he keeps getting stuck on a narrative that isn't true, it could be that a compassionate boundary is necessary.

What you say will likely depend on what you are comfortable saying and what your relationship is like.

When I have had to have boundaries with someone who gets in a negative rumination, I'll repeat my boundary 10 different ways if I have to. "Do you have someone you can talk to about this?" "Are you seeing your therapist soon?" "I'm not good at these kinds of conversations." "I've got about 1 minute in me to talk about this, then let's move on." "On principle I will not talk about x unless a therapist is here to help."

With my ex, sometimes the most effective thing was to say Stop as matter-of-factly as possible.

[once removed]

There has to be authenticity to validation

That says it all. With any of the communication techniques, if you aren't speaking in a way that is authentic, and are in a way that loses sight of the context of your relationship it will be seen through. It will be taken as invalidating, because it is. It will be just be a prescription to get rid of someone difficult or get rid of a conflict. The other person will feel that.

and that can be challenging when reality is being distorted beyond recognition.

Generally speaking, a relationship with someone with bpd is a special needs relationship, and one of those special needs isa little extra validation than the average person needs. And whether in spite of or because of that, people with bpd have a higher bs detector: if it's not authentic, they'll feel and see it more than average.

This might actually be more of a boundaries thing. If you create a validating environment in as much of your family member's life as you realistically can, and he keeps getting stuck on a narrative that isn't true, it could be that a compassionate boundary is necessary.

Validation is a life skill, a tool to have in your toolbelt, and something that you can likely use to bond and connect with your brother specifically, let alone everyone else, but its not a solution to a given conflict. To second livednlearned, it is "valid", for any reason really, not to participate in these discussions with your brother.

Not participating, no matter how you go about it, in them might be perceived as invalidating. At the same time, trying to change his perception might also be invalidating. Knowing your brother best, there are probably ways to deal with his approach to this that, for example, if you simply refused to participate, might land better than others, or might rile him up even more. Or there might be limited ways to participate that bring you both closer together without enabling or feeling untrue to anyone, or disrespecting your family.

That's going to depend a great deal on the kind of relationship you have, and want to have going forward.

But living authentically can have consequences. A lot of us find coping methods around those consequences, and find that conversely, we aren't living as authentically anymore.

The best way to "handle" someone with bpd, or anyone, is by being our authentic selves. Theres a lot that goes into how we interact with someone, or "deal" with someone, that may or may not be authentically "us". Learning to deal with a difficult person, that we love and want in our lives, is finding a way to be authentically us that takes them, and their particular needs or limitations, into account.

[HappyChappy]

With any of the communication techniques, if you aren't speaking in a way that is authentic, and are in a way that loses sight of the context of your relationship it will be seen through.

Good advice, but it's worth pointing out that a "BPD" who triangulates, may well see authenticity differently. E.g. our Golden child (GC) smoked, but the scapegoat got blamed for it . When the GC owned up, our BPD didn't see that as authentic and raged and to this day still insists the SG smoked (he never has).  If someone is into conspiracy theories, the truth and evidence can anger them. Apparently there are "alternative Truths" these days.

Generally speaking, a relationship with someone with bpd is a special needs relationship, and one of those special needs isa little extra validation than the average person needs.

I’m dyslexia so have “special needs”, but people I know well often say “but you can’t” because I don’t fit their stereotype and that includes some dyslexics I’ve met. That said, my BPD does need extra validation. She recently asked me if she’d get picked up for breaking a rule. She didn’t like the answer, so kept asking the same question, over and over. According to Einstein's quote, that’s the definition of "madness".

** given the initial poster posted 6 weeks ago, I’m not hijacking, just keeping their valid questions warm – for their return.

[Strawberry29]

First of all thanks very much all for taking your time to help and giving very valuable advice, I truly appreciate it!

I think your answers basically go towards the direction I thought they would... Validating is probably often more about "not invalidating" in my situation as well, as I tend to be always positive with people... But I need to still only validate the valid, regardless of the consequences...

One of the reasons why it took me so long to come back to respond is that I had a terrible couple of months, and my relationship with my brother seems broken beyond repair... Unfortunately, at the moment every single interaction we have is him sending threats/insults/dramatic messages about how evil me and the people I love are... Despite this, I still try to validate, for example saying repeatedly that I am sorry that he has to suffer that much (I truly am!), that noone shoudl ever feel that way and that I could be of help... but I made it clear I do not agree with his stance (which is basically you have to help me, by attacking everyone else and threatening not to see them anymore, or you are against me) and he just cannot accept this.

So at the moment all of the things we discussed here seems more difficult to put into practice, because the few times he writes to me it is usually to say awful things and I am doing my best not to respond, but there is not much space for problems such as validation until the situation calms down a bit.

I have now told him again that I am setting a boundary, so that I am not responding to emails containing threats, manipulation or insults towards me and my beloved ones. He seems not to care about this boundary at all, and keeps doing the same things. I am really starting to think I will never have a relationship with him anymore, and this is killing me. At the same time, I don't want to concede on such importnat things. I have set my boundaries, I need to look after myself and as much as I love him and want him to pass this hurdle, I will stick to them.

Anyway, thanks, it's been long enough since we've had to deal with this that I know I cannot exclude I will get suddenly a message from him with a complete change of tone from the ones I got in the last 2 years, so all of what was discussed here might turn out to be useful, eventually.