The Marriage During Therapy

[Matty]

Hi,
I have posted here a few times already as I navigate this fascinating and yet disturbing disorder but in summary, my story is very similar to everyone else’s. To summarize, my wife had a breakdown, diagnosed with BPD, took off back to her home country and I haven’t seen her in 10 months. She reaches out to me every two weeks or so and recently unblocked me. Based on her conversations, there is no doubt in my mind that she is getting therapy. I had to set boundaries a few months back and now the verbal abuse has ceased. She even thanked me for something the other day which was a first since all this happened. I am still being blamed for everything that has happened but she has also asked if there is anything left of our marriage. I have taken a passive approach where I always respond to her and attempt to use SET/radical acceptance etc whenever we interact and it does help reduce conflict but I also have to keep my expectations in check as she naturally reverts to old patterns in a two steps forward, one step back type of progress. Now I understand that not all BPDs are the same (and she certainly does not fit the mold despite having 7/9 symptoms) but given how similar behaviours can be, what else can I expect as a result of her in therapy?  Is there anything else I should be doing differently to support her from a distance? 

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[Pook075]

Hey Matty!  I'm glad things have somewhat improved and some positive steps are being taken.  All good stuff. 

You're right, not all BPD's are the same and I have two very different types in my life.  One has explosive rage and the other suffers in silence.  While they're very different, the same approach makes all the difference in the world when communicating with them because of their shared fear of abandonment and low self esteem.  You love them and show empathy and compassion, because at the end of the day they are sick and want to get better.

As far as what you can do to give better support, just make sure it's known that you still care and you're not going anywhere.  When the dysfunction rises up, don't fight the warped narratives because no good comes of it.  Instead, just listen and relate to how hard that would be if you were in the identical situation.  I know you don't have BPD but you can still imagine her fears and heartbreak when the world doesn't make any sense.  I think that would be terrifying and it's very sad.  So approach your interactions with that mindset and how tough this must be for her.

The only time you ignore the above advice, is when she brings up your relationship.  If she says you don't love me, you don't care about me, etc., then that's the time to lovingly correct her and reassure her that you do hope to make amends in the relationship.  Squash her fear of abandonment every time she brings it up...you're here and you're waiting.

As far as what to expect, that's a tough one to answer since everyone heals differently and on their own timelines.  You're seeing actual progress though and that's encouraging, so keep your head up and just keep doing what you're doing.  I wish you luck!

[Matty]

Thank you for this reply and I will emphasize that I still care for her at every opportunity.

We were speaking the other day and when I attempted to describe what happened in our marriage as being not entirely my fault, that some of it was due to exceptional circumstances that were beyond both of our control and that she needs to take responsibility for her decisions/actions, she became extremely disregulated. I attempted to settle things down but to no avail.

I am wondering if BPDs won’t accept responsibility for their decisions/actions because they do these things while dis-regulated? Does this mean in their mind that it doesn’t count? Sometimes she will acknowledge that she was off the rails and other times complete dismisses the possibility. This can be so difficult to navigate and have had zero success in calming her down if disregulated.

[Pook075]

Thank you for this reply and I will emphasize that I still care for her at every opportunity.

We were speaking the other day and when I attempted to describe what happened in our marriage as being not entirely my fault, that some of it was due to exceptional circumstances that were beyond both of our control and that she needs to take responsibility for her decisions/actions, she became extremely disregulated. I attempted to settle things down but to no avail.

I am wondering if BPDs won’t accept responsibility for their decisions/actions because they do these things while dis-regulated? Does this mean in their mind that it doesn’t count? Sometimes she will acknowledge that she was off the rails and other times complete dismisses the possibility. This can be so difficult to navigate and have had zero success in calming her down if disregulated.

Hey Matty.  My marriage failed because my wife was horribly depressed and laid in bed silently, thinking about every lousy thing I did over the past 25 years.  Some of the arguments we had decades, which she started with screaming and violence, were re-written in her mind to somehow be 100% my fault.  When my wife got depressed enough, she just left and mentioned to my kid that she might have feelings for another man.  But she never mentioned any of this- she just said I wasn't a good person and left.  Shortly thereafter she became ugly and demeaning.

Can I find fault there?  Absolutely.  But blaming her and asking her to take responsibility is like asking a dog to fly.  It's senseless and it solves nothing if your goal is to reconcile.  So you have to ask yourself, is it more important to get an apology or to save your marriage?  With BPD, you're not getting both.

When I communicate with my wife and she brings up the past, I've found that the best answer in my situation is to say, "I'm really sorry, I did the best that I could every day."  That usually de-escalates the situation.

Here's the thing though, for every relationship here that's broken down or failed, the main problem wasn't what was argued about, it was communication- being able to talk things out while showing love and support.  That's sometimes hard to do in any marriage, but with BPD and the built-in fears of abandonment, it has to be said daily that you choose your wife and you'll always show up. 

Another thing I always say to my wife before we end a conversation is, "I love you and I'll always be here for you no matter what."  She doesn't say it back and I'm okay with that, because I've chosen to love her regardless.  And even though the relationship is over in my case, I don't regret giving her that emotional support without getting anything in return.  So I say it every time and she now believes it to be true. 

That's how I've overcome all her misguided accusations (you've never cared about me, you've never cared about my family, etc.). I prove them wrong by showing love and compassion.  It makes all the difference in the world.

[Matty]

Thank you Pook075, this was golden advice. Im still not certain if we are now on the path to reconciliation or to closure but either would be a relief at this point. When I took your advice, it really settled the situation down. At least now the communication is flowing much better.

[Pook075]

Thank you Pook075, this was golden advice. Im still not certain if we are now on the path to reconciliation or to closure but either would be a relief at this point. When I took your advice, it really settled the situation down. At least now the communication is flowing much better.

That's awesome, I'm very happy that things are continuing to improve.  Like you said, maybe it doesn't work in the long run, but at least this way you're giving it the best possible chance AND your wife is less stressed in the process.  I really hope it works out for you guys!

Please feel free to pop in and ask additional questions- myself and others will help as much as we can.  I'm rooting for you friend!

[Matty]

So we started talking on the phone more often and then the topic turned to our marriage and I think we spoke about it for two days straight and it was exhausting and basically went no where. She had been sharing pictures with me etc and it started to feel like we might get back together or at least were building trust back again. Suddenly one Saturday morning she was been uncommunicative and I gave her space (probably should have asked if she was ok) and a few hours later was inundated by about 30 texts of how this can never workout. I didn’t reply as the whole thing was also very insulting about me (complete fiction) and just very disregulated. Two days later she messaged asking me to call right now as she had some news that was very good for me (I highly suspect that was not the case) and I told her that if she apologized for the things she called the other day then I would call her. She said don’t ever contact her again and thats what I intend to do because if thats what they want, thats what they get.

I just don’t understand what she wants from me? If she doesn’t want to even consider the possibility of saving our marriage, why is she talking to me? I told her that if she wants to move on and forget our marriage then just block me and thats that. I also found out that her therapist was out of town on vacation so I’m wondering if this sudden contact etc was all just because the therapist was not there to be her emotional punching bag. 

[Pook075]

So we started talking on the phone more often and then the topic turned to our marriage and I think we spoke about it for two days straight and it was exhausting and basically went no where. She had been sharing pictures with me etc and it started to feel like we might get back together or at least were building trust back again. Suddenly one Saturday morning she was been uncommunicative and I gave her space (probably should have asked if she was ok) and a few hours later was inundated by about 30 texts of how this can never workout. I didn’t reply as the whole thing was also very insulting about me (complete fiction) and just very disregulated. Two days later she messaged asking me to call right now as she had some news that was very good for me (I highly suspect that was not the case) and I told her that if she apologized for the things she called the other day then I would call her. She said don’t ever contact her again and thats what I intend to do because if thats what they want, thats what they get.

I just don’t understand what she wants from me? If she doesn’t want to even consider the possibility of saving our marriage, why is she talking to me? I told her that if she wants to move on and forget our marriage then just block me and thats that. I also found out that her therapist was out of town on vacation so I’m wondering if this sudden contact etc was all just because the therapist was not there to be her emotional punching bag. 

Hey Matty.  The problem here is that people w/ BPD run almost entirely on emotions.  When they are happy, they are really happy...until the slightest bad thing happens and makes them sad.  Maybe they are making coffee and drop a spoon on the ground, and that sends their mind spiraling how they're not good at anything and will never be happy.

You're looking at your wife as if she's thought everything out and knows exactly how she feels about you in a logical way- and that's not true.  She loves you AND she's terrified to give you another chance for how badly she's hurt in the past.  Both of those things are true at the same time.  She's so scared of abandonment that she doesn't want to give you a chance to hurt her, so she's constantly pushing you away while wanting love and attention. 

The only time that stops is when she feels loved and supported, which is what you guys had the other week.  But then anything could change and her mind activates that illogical fear of rejection all over again.  Often, it has nothing to do with you in the moment, it's just a fear that appears out of nowhere.  That happened two or three times after my wife and I separated- we had a great day together and the following day, she said it was over.  And I was left bewildered at what actually happened.

In this particular case, she got scared and said several things she shouldn't have.  It was over text so you couldn't calm her down or reassure her.  So she cooled off for two days, her mood reverted back to being more level-headed, and she was excited to talk to you.  But you demanded an apology and that brought back all her fears all over again.

Is it fair?  No, not a bit.  But I'll tell you again, you can be right or you can have a relationship.  You can't have both when she's unstable and there will be times when you have to swallow your pride to get past things.

If you want the relationship to work, you must give her emotional support and validation in both the good and bad times.  I know that's incredibly hard, but that's what a BPD relationship requires.  She probably does want the marriage to work and she's terrified of it at the same time- both things can be true.  It falls on you though to guide her through the insecurity in order to restore the relationship.

[Matty]

Thank you again for your reply.
I only wonder about this:
Months ago I had to establish boundaries when she would become verbally abuse and it worked well.
Is it not also the establishment of a boundary to make them accountable for their actions and demonstrate the need to apologize and that it’s alright to apologize?

[kells76]

Hey Matty;

Thank you again for your reply.
I only wonder about this:
Months ago I had to establish boundaries when she would become verbally abuse and it worked well.
Is it not also the establishment of a boundary to make them accountable for their actions and demonstrate the need to apologize and that it’s alright to apologize?

Good question.

I think I'm remembering that your boundary around verbal abuse was that you would exit the phone conversation if it became abusive.

The key part of that is that -- it is 100% under your control. You didn't, and don't need her cooperation or agreement for you to say "There is too much name-calling in this conversation, so I'm going to hang up now, and I'll try calling back tomorrow at 8". It sounds like that was going ok for you.

Making someone accountable for their actions, or making them see that they should apologize, isn't under our control, so isn't considered a boundary. It's certainly a desire or wish, or something we might want.

We don't have control over someone else's level of insight or contrition.

We can make choices about if we want to be in a relationship with someone who doesn't seem to have as much insight as we would want, or who does not apologize sincerely, for example.

*A wish (not a boundary) related to accountability/apology might look like:
*Can't she just see how much she hurt me? I think that if I could just demonstrate to her that she needs to apologize, she'd really do it.

*An ultimatum (not a boundary) related to accountability/apology might look like:
If you don't apologize for how you hurt me in the past, and mean it, then I'm breaking up with you.

*A boundary related to accountability/apology might look like:
I'm able to be in relationships with people who take responsibility for how their actions impacted others. I choose to exit relationships that don't track with my values around apologies and accountability.

...

Any thoughts around those ideas?

[Matty]

I would say the first one: can’t she see how much she is hurting someone with the things she says is probably the most realistic goal. Basically raising her awareness as she is only now becoming aware of her own emotions and the need to control them rather than the other way around.

[Matty]

Hi again. Further to this very common BPD story, for about 6 weeks my wife and I began to talk regularly, before she would go to sleep or after work and I had no idea why she had reached out to me but as our conversations became more intimate and she was demonstrating a level of self-awareness that I had never experienced before, I asked if she wanted to consider the possibility of reconciling. She said she did not and as she was completely regulated at the time and seeing a therapist, I took this to be the final word. We were still communicating and then she became incredible dis-regulated and was abusive etc by text. I tried to call her as this always helps her (using SET etc) but she would not take my call. A week goes by, I hadn’t engaged and neither had she and then she suddenly blocks me. I think fine, thats great. Maybe it will just stay that way (following our last encounter). A month goes by and I have a message from an unknown number and it’s her singing a Pakistani song (she is Pakistani but this is not a sing I know) and thats it. It was clearly filmed while she was alone and the number is only active once a day. I don’t know if this is just bait to see if I will react but I will not respond to an unknown number when she could just unblock me and send it herself from her own number. Anyway, it has weighted heavily on me these last few days as I don’t know if this is an apology (which often come in an unusual method) or what t is or why she would send me this. I really don’t know what to make of it. Grateful any thoughts as I thought I had started to understand BPD but perhaps not as much as I thought.

[SaltyDawg]

Matty,

This song, I presume in arabic, that your wife sung to you.  The lyrics in songs are often very meaningful to a pwBPD, I know this to the be the case in my uBPD/uNPD/+exgf.  So if you know the lyrics, or can have it translated , it might give you more insight into her current mental state.

What are your thoughts on this?  What do the song's lyrics mean?  To her?  To you?

SD

[Matty]

Actually it’s Urdu. Turns out the song title is familiar to me for some reason. The lyrics are about undying love. I decided to play along.

[SaltyDawg]

Actually it’s Urdu. Turns out the song title is familiar to me for some reason. The lyrics are about undying love. I decided to play along.

Obviously she is thinking of you, and cannot get you off her mind.  If you are going to 'play along', make sure you take precautions to protect yourself, should she choose to abandon you again.

Take care with self-care.

SD

[Matty]

As an update and close out, we spoke several times between Christmas and New Years and these calls were at least not failures but actually interesting discussions. However, in the past month its become obvious that she has stopped going to therapy and I had the impression that she split on her therapist. Since then the calls have gotten progressively worst and I asked her if she would like to find another therapist and she said: who is going to pay for that? You? I said that I would and after the call sent her an e-mail outlining how this would work and how proud of her I was when she had initially chosen on her own to go to therapy. However, last week we spoke twice and I had no idea why she was calling me or why she was telling me the things she said. The final call started off with a number of accusations that I could easily disprove with her like saying that I only married her as I wanted a trophy wife or that I was also interested in these other woman etc, she was telling me that she had the marriage annulled (again as it turned out the last time she said it wasn’t true) and that she was getting married again (also not true the last time). So she seemed very disregulated and I couldn’t calm her down and after I said good bye I blocked her on everything because I have no idea if she is lying or projecting, it became highly offensive (almost verbal abuse) and she refuses to get help. I have a few things of hers that will be returned by courier in the next month and so when they get back to her (as this is the reason she often starts a call, to return her things which is shockingly complicated and has failed several times but she won’t ever believe it until they are returned) and often accuses me of doing this intentionally, then if she reaches out through some other means I may reconsider but for now, I am moving on as I just can’t carry on like this.

[Pook075]

As an update and close out, we spoke several times between Christmas and New Years and these calls were at least not failures but actually interesting discussions. However, in the past month its become obvious that she has stopped going to therapy and I had the impression that she split on her therapist. Since then the calls have gotten progressively worst and I asked her if she would like to find another therapist and she said: who is going to pay for that? You? I said that I would and after the call sent her an e-mail outlining how this would work and how proud of her I was when she had initially chosen on her own to go to therapy. However, last week we spoke twice and I had no idea why she was calling me or why she was telling me the things she said. The final call started off with a number of accusations that I could easily disprove with her like saying that I only married her as I wanted a trophy wife or that I was also interested in these other woman etc, she was telling me that she had the marriage annulled (again as it turned out the last time she said it wasn’t true) and that she was getting married again (also not true the last time). So she seemed very disregulated and I couldn’t calm her down and after I said good bye I blocked her on everything because I have no idea if she is lying or projecting, it became highly offensive (almost verbal abuse) and she refuses to get help. I have a few things of hers that will be returned by courier in the next month and so when they get back to her (as this is the reason she often starts a call, to return her things which is shockingly complicated and has failed several times but she won’t ever believe it until they are returned) and often accuses me of doing this intentionally, then if she reaches out through some other means I may reconsider but for now, I am moving on as I just can’t carry on like this.

I'm very sorry Matty, but I am glad that you're standing your ground.  It doesn't make any sense to fight about the distant past since it only hurts everyone.

I did a quick Google search on international divorce and it appears to be complicated.  The US will recognize it if she divorces you in another country and that country allowed you to participate with notifications and responses.  If that doesn't happen, then she could be divorced (or annulled) from you while you're still married to her.  That's a mess and it's going to make things complicated for you down the road.

I'm praying for you Matty, and we're always here if you need to talk things out.

[once removed]

I blocked her on everything
...
she suddenly blocks me
...
told her that if she wants to move on and forget our marriage then just block me
...
then if she reaches out through some other means I may reconsider but for now, I am moving on as I just can’t carry on like this.

Matty,

your marriage has been locked in what looks like a power struggle for many months. there is little to no constructive or rehabilitative, relationship building stuff going on here, but two hurt people jockeying for control over a spiraling situation.

can you read this, and tell us which stage it sounds like your relationship is in: https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/your-relationship-breaking-down

i think the question at this point is whether this relationship is broken beyond repair; if both of you are spent, or if you want to consider a different approach?

the status quo is only going to get worse for both of you, and make the chances of reconciliation slimmer.

[Matty]

For over a year I have been trying to return some luggage of her’s however, it’s been logistically very complicated to export to her country. Fortunately a friend was going so he took her luggage. (This was a constant source of friction in any discussion as she thought I was holding back on it in order to punish her). I sent her a message saying that it’s now on its way, that I am sorry for distress it caused her etc. I did not expect or receive a reply however a few days later I received a WhatsApp call from an unknown number in her country. When I answered, there was no response and the call dropped. I didn’t call back and the number has not been active for more than a week now. It has not been uncommon in the past for her to contact me through unknown numbers and emails.
I am preparing for the possibility that when she receives her belongings that I may be painted white again. For me, I could never consider any possibility of reconciliation if she is not getting therapy (it was clear that she was getting therapy in the Fall of 2023 and it was making a huge difference but based on our last call it’s apparent that she split on her therapist and hasn’t returned).
So my question is this: how do I convey to her that she needs to return to therapy (I’ve offered to pay previously) in the least threatening way? Is it like establishing a boundary which I have successfully done with verbal abuse? Grateful for any thoughts.

[Pook075]

So my question is this: how do I convey to her that she needs to return to therapy (I’ve offered to pay previously) in the least threatening way?

Hey Matty, I hope you're doing well and keeping your head up.

Boundaries are for you- what you'll do in certain situations.  They have nothing to do with her except when she's crossing one of your boundaries.

In short, you don't need to convey that she needs to return to therapy.  If she wants to return, she will.  If she doesn't, she won't.  And even if you could somehow force her to go, it wouldn't do any good because it's not her actual choice.  She needs to choose to heal from whatever she's dealing with, and that's a personal decision we all get to make.  You can't choose for her and even suggesting it will be taken the wrong way.

Where's your head at on the possibility of reconciling?  If you still feel its an option (for you), then the best path at this point is actually talking to her and rebuilding trust between the two of you.  If that's not possible (or if her responses still cross your boundaries) then you're better off keeping your distance until she's ready to try making amends.

[Matty]

Thank you Pook, wise advice everytime.

It is my hope that by having her luggage returned to her that this will be the first step in re-building trust. At the least it will eliminate a source of incessant friction that has dominated every conversation for the past year.

With her luggage I have included a number of reminders of us, like a memory stick with pictures of us, jewellery that I gave her and a few messages that leave the door open to the possibility of reconciliation.

When everything went to hell in a hand basket and she had her breakdown and suicidal gestures and then left the country, I had been at my wits end where I had little to no capacity to deal with it (as we had just moved from Pakistan to China on assignment) and zero knowledge about BPD or the needs of someone with BPD. For the past year, I have worked on myself, learned everything I can about BPD and at every opportunity where we have been in contact, I have attempted to demonstrate to her that I can understand and empathize with her pain and what she is going through.

While I have witnessed the incredible benefits of therapy on her condition, I have also had recent reminders of how she can be when disregulated so I can’t see how its possible for any relationship to work unless she is getting therapy as there are so many hurdles that would need to be overcome. So while I still believe in her and wish to support her, I realize how dominant this disorder is and that it may be far bigger than me and that I may have to admit defeat. 

[Pook075]

While I have witnessed the incredible benefits of therapy on her condition, I have also had recent reminders of how she can be when disregulated so I can’t see how its possible for any relationship to work unless she is getting therapy as there are so many hurdles that would need to be overcome. So while I still believe in her and wish to support her, I realize how dominant this disorder is and that it may be far bigger than me and that I may have to admit defeat. 

Hey Matty.  Every relationship takes two people, so this isn't just her.  And I'm not saying that to cast blame.  Blame is worthless- it's like being on a sinking boat and arguing over who did what that made the boat sink.  The only goal should be to figure out how to stay afloat- that means working together.

Therapy is definitely a tool, but individual therapy alone can't stop a sinking boat or a broken marriage.  Remember, she had BPD during the good times of the marriage as well and it worked then.  She's still the same person, but her perceptions have changed and she's filled with shame, self-doubt, and other fears.  It's your job to help her face those fears head-on and move past them.

You're right, maybe you will have to admit defeat.  But only you get to decide how and when.  If you're not there yet, then don't give up...really dig deep on the lessons here around validation and improving communication.  That's the path...it's always been the path with BPD.

[Matty]

I couldn’t agree more and I know that I made every mistake possible in the beginning in that I told her the diagnosis thinking it was good news (I know now you’re not suppose to do that) and when this all happened, I had little to no ability to deal with it.

When she was getting help I offered for us to meet in a third country that we’ve been to before and where we had a very memorable time but she declined. If she was still getting help then I would go to her country but she attempted to have me arrested in Canada and in her country, she could have far worst done to me very easily. 

When she receives her luggage, she will no longer have any reason to contact me so if she does contact me (either directly or indirectly), I will certainly respond. I have had some success with her in establishing healthy boundaries and with SET and I believe I have a better capacity to understand her now. So hopefully the reset button will be pushed but if you think there is something else I should be doing, I am very willing to take any suggestions. 

[Pook075]

I couldn’t agree more and I know that I made every mistake possible in the beginning in that I told her the diagnosis thinking it was good news (I know now you’re not suppose to do that) and when this all happened, I had little to no ability to deal with it.

When she was getting help I offered for us to meet in a third country that we’ve been to before and where we had a very memorable time but she declined. If she was still getting help then I would go to her country but she attempted to have me arrested in Canada and in her country, she could have far worst done to me very easily. 

When she receives her luggage, she will no longer have any reason to contact me so if she does contact me (either directly or indirectly), I will certainly respond. I have had some success with her in establishing healthy boundaries and with SET and I believe I have a better capacity to understand her now. So hopefully the reset button will be pushed but if you think there is something else I should be doing, I am very willing to take any suggestions. 

I think you're doing everything right- just continue to be open and honest without passing blame.  Remember that invalidating her emotions is the main cause of everything here, that's why these relationships break and it's the thing that keeps them from coming back together.  So approach everything from that mindset- she's sick and deserves compassion from her spouse.

I honestly don't know if the luggage will help or not.  Often, it's just something to complain about and has nothing to do with the real issue.  The real issue is that she's sick and needs to feel validated.

Still praying for you brother, keep your spirits up and keep moving forward.