My sister has BPD, is she a danger to her kids mental health?

[LC90]

I have been looking for an outlet like this for a while. People who may have some good advice who know what BPD is.

My sister was just (we think. Who knows, maybe she’s known for a long time) diagnosed with BPD. Her and I have had a rocky relationship for as long as I can remember. But we have been close, more often than not. There was a recent period right before her psychotic break that I considered her one of my best friends. She would come over every weekend, her kids and I were all so close. Our mom was usually around too. Her and my sister (K) had a great relationship, literally live a block away and are together all day, everyday. K has always shown traits of BPD but for some reason after she was formally diagnosed, it’s turned her into another level-monster. As if having this diagnoses actually allows her to treat people worse than before.

She has 3 boys, oldest is 15, middle is 11 and the youngest, 4. All different dads, the youngest, his father is unknown to us- apparently he was a one night stand after meeting at the store. However, after a lot more thought- there was a friend that was always trying so very hard to be with her and she went on a few dates with him and I know they slept together at least twice. He was too nice, she said. Although she never had many men who actually could put up with her.

I’ll get to the point now: End of April last year, my mom had taken S4 for the week of school vacation because by this point she has thrown multiple tantrums about how she can’t do it anymore. Her 4 year old was in the background telling me that his mother wants to kill her self so he would be staying with “mammaw” for now. SHe told her middle son a week or so earlier that she should have had an abortion- he was why she was like she is and life would be easier without her kids. All because he wouldn’t brush his teeth before eating pizza for dinner. She is constantly verbally abusing them. The other 2 boys were with their dads for vacation and 1 days into the the youngest and middle being home (oldest was still with a friend on vacation) she had a mental breakdown. Called everyone in the family to come help and to her “surprise” everyone came. It was a Tuesday night- she had worms crawling out of her body. SHe was pulling them from everywhere. She called her oldest son a few nights before, claiming that she was seeing them come out of her rectum. This freaked him out and he put her on speaker phone so his father could hear and that worried everyone. When the family showed up- she was pacing her home screaming in circles- we were unable to console her. I was able to convince her to go to the hospital but for some reason my mother would convince her to wait until the next day. I have no idea why, even after puling her aside and reminding her that we needed her to go to the hospital, she would appear to understand and then AGAIN convince her that she could wait. It was hard enough trying to get her to agree, eventually she locked us all out of her house and we had to cal the police for a welfare check because two of the kids were in the home still and we feared for their life.

The next day she told everyone she saw her therapist and that she was formally diagnosed with schizophrenia. This happened way quicker than I expected but I was actually relived to have an answer. Her middle and youngest came with me that night. Her oldest never came back from his dad’s home. The day after this, I went to her home to be there for her. To be her “person”. I couldn’t imagine going through something like this and I just wanted her to know that I’m here. When got there she was angry- screaming non-sense about the IRS coming to the door with firearm to collect debts. She then told me I couldn’t hav any of the boys things because “They aren’t my f**king problem anymore” and since I have the “luxury of having a job, I can buy them new things” she then went on to say that since my husband and I are unable to have kids we are just out to take hers. She went on, until I finally just walked out.

A week- maybe 2 weeks later, she admitted she actually does not have schizophrenia, she made that up completely, but that she has BPD and she had told my oldest sister (whom at this point she has convinced to be her person- she is now financially supporting K) that she didn’t dare tell anyone in the family because she doesn’t want her children to be taken away.

Both middle and youngest boys stayed with me until the end of the school year. The middle one decided to move with his dad full time at the end of the school year, who lives an hour away. The oldest has also been with his dad. They both have told her they want her to get better and they love her but they don’t think she should take care of them right now. The 11 year old told me he is “way less stressed” since being out of her home. The oldest shared stories that he is now realizing wasn’t OK- she was refusing to make them dinner, and refusing to let HIM make them dinner. This BROKE ME.

The youngest stayed with me And my husband she she would come to visit sometimes and she seemed to understand most days why we were doing this. Some days she was thankful- but the interaction between her and the youngest is so bizarre- he’s already showing signs of emotional dysregulation. Screaming “I LOVE YOU MOMMY PLEASE DON’T LEAVE ME” he was so confused by all of this- not living with his mom. It broke my heart. I wanted her to get help, while letting us help him, but she shut everyone out and wouldn’t discuss any therapy with us. We weren’t even sure if she was even seeing a psychiatrist or if she was just telling us what she thought we wanted to hear

3 months into having her middle and youngest with us full time, we had a birthday party for my mom. She insisted we invite K and I agreed. Well, K swooped in and literally picked him up into her arms,  screamed at every single person in the room one by one- she was basically foaming at the mouth, and left.

She went about 2 weeks before she asked us to have sleep overs with the youngest again- and the current situation is, he comes with either me and my husband or with my mom on the weekends, I live 30 minutes away from his school so its hard for me during weekdays but my mom generally picks him up from school each day.

What I need advice on, is, when do I know If I should pursue guardianship? She is not physically abusing him, he loves his mom, but she doesn’t know how to be one.  He was doing so well with us for the 3 months- with her, he throws fits constantly. He is abusive to her too- telling her how much he hates her and wishes her dead. He hears her saying this to my mom so I think that’s why. I have talked with her multiple times and told her I only want temporary guardianship so she can focus on herself. But she won’t do it because she would lose her state benefits. She gets EBT, housing- everything paid and if she didn’t have custody she would lose it all. Unfortunately, she can’t enroll him into school near me either because her address has to match the School district.

She tells only me that she has a case worker that comes to the house for him, and that she has looked into child psychiatrists but there are non accepting his state-insurance. However; non of this is true., She has never tried looking. My mother has him every day after school, and the case worker she speaks of is one that was assigned to her but has never made a home visit before.

Since she won’t let us know how progress with therapy is going and apparently her mental health team doesn’t care to speak with anyone in the family either. I’m not sure what to do from here. Do I try to gain guardianship to save my nephews mental health while I still can? Can mother’s with BPD raise a healthy child? I’m not rich, and I know she will fight. She will be given a paid-for lawyer. It would be a fight we could potentially loose. He is worth it, but I also don’t want him to resent us. What if it backfires? Any advice, words of wisdom? I don’t want to take her children from her- I want her to have the time to take care of herself.

Sorry this was long- and I left so much out but thank you for reading this far.

[Pook075]

What I need advice on, is, when do I know If I should pursue guardianship? She is not physically abusing him, he loves his mom, but she doesn’t know how to be one.

Hello and thanks so much for sharing your heartbreaking story.  I can only imagine how difficult this must be and unfortunately, there are no steadfast answers of when to do what.  As a general rule though, you would want to intervene when "your sister is a danger to herself or others."  Memorize that phrase because it's magical in the healthcare world.  You say that phrase and they must order a psychiatric evaluation.

What does "a danger to herself or others" mean?  We generally think of acts of violence, and that definitely applies.  But that can also include forms of abuse and neglect.  If your sister is unfit to be a parent, even for a short time, then you should dial 9-1-1 and say the magic phrase.  Or you can call the case worker. 

Also, start documenting these instances the best you can- dates and what happened.  Hopefully you never need to use it but it is good to have a record of these things in case this ends up in court.  Others can give you better advice there since I don't know much about that process.

What else can you do in the meantime?  Try showing your sister as much empathy and compassion as you can, and let her know that you're on her side.  The closer you can get, the more likely she would be to ask you to take the kids again.  But the opposite may happen as well, maybe she improves and actually realizes the need to become a better mother.

In terms of timelines based on your story, I don't think it would be a bad move to start pursuing guardianship now.  You'd want to have your family's buy-in though and it is essential that everyone's on the same page.  Talk to your mom beforehand and create an action plan together.  The last thing you want is your sister to agree to one thing and your mom suggests something else.  So tackle that part of this now.  Your mom probably just wants the best for everyone involved including your sister, but because she loves her so much she may not be able to fully see the reality that's right in front of her.  So have that talk and plan together.

I hope that helps and again, thanks so much for sharing!  You will get through this!

[LC90]

Thank you so much for your reply.
I want to pursue guardianship now, my hesitation is- she is so manipulative. So much so, that I'm afraid she would lie and be "normal" in front of all the right people. I'm afraid she HAS been lying all along to her therapist because wouldn't they be paying attention more closely to her parenting? Aren't they mandated reporters? I'm afraid if we try, we fail, and she cuts us out completely and then he is stuck with her and he has no outlet. That's worst case scenario and that's what has stopped us from doing it so far.

I have spoken with her about taking guardianship of him temporarily for her benefit but she is very adamant that she will NOT 'give her son up'. There was just one time that she admitted to me that she was an awful mother and that he is going to end up just like her if he stays. But even in that conversation she said she could never give him up.

I don't even know if it's appropriate to try to contact her therapist. Is that something that is normal to do?

[Pook075]

I want to pursue guardianship now, my hesitation is- she is so manipulative. So much so, that I'm afraid she would lie and be "normal" in front of all the right people. I'm afraid she HAS been lying all along to her therapist because wouldn't they be paying attention more closely to her parenting? Aren't they mandated reporters? I'm afraid if we try, we fail, and she cuts us out completely and then he is stuck with her and he has no outlet. That's worst case scenario and that's what has stopped us from doing it so far.

That is a legitimate fear and it happens all the time.  And of course she lies to her therapist, that's part of therapy.  It took my daughter years of counseling before she even started to talk about the actual problems in her life.  For many years, they talked about her friends and their drama, how we were unfit parents, etc.  Counselors go along with it though because it's building trust and a real relationship- that's the only way to really get to the deeper stuff.  Your sister's therapist almost surely sees through that stuff though.

I have spoken with her about taking guardianship of him temporarily for her benefit but she is very adamant that she will NOT 'give her son up'. There was just one time that she admitted to me that she was an awful mother and that he is going to end up just like her if he stays. But even in that conversation she said she could never give him up.

Of course, because it's one of the few things she can look forward to every day, the child is a constant.  That's why mental health professionals try not to have kids removed unless there's clear danger there, because it is super tough on the patient and it might make their mental health much worse.  So it's always a fine line there.

For your position, this should be a family decision (not just yours) because you're going to need support no matter how this shakes out.  The courts will generally rule that the best outcome for a child is to be with the parent...unless the parent is very clearly neglecting the child.  This would vary state by state and the law is not on your side without clear proof.  Again, document everything and don't hesitate to dial 9-1-1 when you can say the magic phrase.

I don't even know if it's appropriate to try to contact her therapist. Is that something that is normal to do?

It's a semi-normal thing to do, but you have to approach it from the correct angle.  You are not on your sister's privacy forms so the therapist can't tell you anything about your sister or her therapy.  However, you can inform him/her of what you've witnessed and suggest some areas that could be addressed.  Sometimes, just the background alone can help the therapist immensely, but it's up to the therapist whether they talk to you or not. 

There may be some state laws in play as well that I might not know about.  It is generally accepted, however, to contact the facility and say, "Hey, this concerns me and I'd like to share some information."

Another approach is to ask for a family (group) therapy session if your sister would be receptive to that.  It could be your mom instead of you as well.  But that also limits what you can say without harming your relationship and making the process much tougher.

I wish this was one of those, "Do this, then that, then that" types of scenarios, but unfortunately it is very complicated and laws are in place to protect your sister.

[ForeverDad]

I don't even know if it's appropriate to try to contact her therapist. Is that something that is normal to do?

It's a semi-normal thing to do, but you have to approach it from the correct angle.  You are not on your sister's privacy forms so the therapist can't tell you anything about your sister or her therapy.  However, you can inform him/her of what you've witnessed and suggest some areas that could be addressed.  Sometimes, just the background alone can help the therapist immensely, but it's up to the therapist whether they talk to you or not.

There are HIPAA laws intended to protect the patient's privacy.  So as Pook outlined, her therapist is limited in what can be shared with you.  However, if the therapist will listen, then you can of course share information that you feel would be helpful as background, events or in therapy.

As for the children, it seems they already spend some time with you or your mother.  That's good, they probably need time away to find balance in their lives.  With the children all having different fathers, that paternal influence should be filled with some male involvement, if not with the two known fathers then perhaps in school teams where male coaches and others can draw out the best from them as they grow up.

I guess my point is that even if she refuses to grant you guardianship (unless her behaviors are deemed dangerous) then you can still be a great resource for the kids, though just not with an official document.  Could that perspective work?

[Notwendy]

I will add that my aunts and uncles made a huge difference for me- even if for them, it didn't seem like they did as much as they wanted to. What came naturally for them made an impact because, it was "normal" parental attention. One of my father's sisters remarked "she wish she had done more" but for me it was huge. She acted like a mother to me because this is who she was. She mothered her own children- when we stayed with her- I was just part of the pack.

I did have a father growing up, so I don't think that need was there as much but uncles were also father examples.

It is mainly my father's family who were the other parental figures. I didn't know my mother's side of the family as well. They seemed standoffish and judgmental to me. After my father passed away, we were alienated for a while and they were mostly aligned with my BPD mother. This is the difference- my father's family didn't align with her- their relationship was strained, but they were supportive to my father and helped with us kids. My mother's family seemed to be unaware of my mother's issues.

They recently reached out to me as being around her- they have figured it out. Even now, as an adult, the support means a lot to me- in the same way- they are acting like normal parental figures. I don't "need" a parent in the same way as I did as a child- but growing up with a disordered parent is a different experience as an adult too. Simple things are different. Going out to lunch with my mother's family is  a pleasant time for all of us. With my mother the interaction is different- it's about meeting her needs.

Your sister's situation is more disordered than my family was growing up. I don't think it's because your sister is more disordered- my mother is very affected by BPD. I think it's more the times and her situation. In her era, the main role for women was to get married and be a housewife and so my father was present and he supported us. This appeared "normal" but what went on at home was not normal.

How much having a BPD mother impacts children depends on a lot of factors but one of them is having supportive adults in their lives, and so you can make a difference with whatever you are able to do. Although I was attached to my father, if at any point my aunts and uncles on either side of the family had offered to take me in- I'd have agreed to that. I recall being envious of my cousins' family- wishing mine were more like theirs. No family is perfect but my cousins had mothers who took care of them, who didn't have tantrums.

I would say in your situation, if you want to be the guardian of the child and give that child some stability- and you can do it financially, then that would be a good thing. If you can't do that- you can still make a difference for a child by spending time with the child, having the child stay with you. If at any point you are concerned about abuse - involve child protective services- even if it doesn't amount to any action- it still gets documented.

[zachira]

As a daughter of an unstable BPD mother, I often say that the best thing that can happen to a child is to be raised by parents who know how to love and raise healthy children. My heart breaks hearing what the four year old child is enduring. The recommendation that you document everything that is going on is key, and I would seek out a lawyer for the best advice on how to have the documentation that would give you the best chance of getting guardianship and/or full custody. It sounds very unlikely that your sister would give you guardianship as that would likely mean she is being abandoned by the four year old and she probably already feels abandoned by her other two sons. You are making a big difference in your youngest nephew's life. So many people reached out to me as a child to let me know that the way my mother treated me was not normal, yet I wish I did not have to spend most of my life figuring out how to have healthy relationships with myself and others because of the long term impacts of my traumatic childhood experiences with my BPD mother. Your nephews are lucky to have you and other family members who are doing their best to protect the children from their mother with BPD.

[livednlearned]

LC90 it's great you are in a position to do right by the kids. It's tragic that your sister has chosen to remain untreated and while it's hard to know what will happen I hope she finds that path and takes it at some point  

I want to pursue guardianship now, my hesitation is- she is so manipulative. So much so, that I'm afraid she would lie and be "normal" in front of all the right people.

This is a common concern for many of us struggling to keep our kids safe. In general it's a good idea to go for a "more sunlight is better" approach. Professionals will get involved and do evaluations and honestly, it's not easy to hide these behaviors, especially some of the things you describe with your sister.

Many of us grew up in a family where these behaviors were sort of downplayed (like what you describe your mom doing), and this can make us think others won't see what can sometimes be rather obvious to them. My ex husband was an attorney and "high functioning" yet when professionals got involved I learned that he was going in and out of psychosis -- I had no idea.

It might be a good idea to keep talk about guardianship to yourself and H since she's struggling to stay in her right mind, at least until you have a plan.

Another important first step is to consult with several lawyers until you find one you trust. Often this will cost a bit of money but it helps you to get a sense of how things work where you live (anywhere from free to a few hundred dollars for a consuult), and find someone who is a good fit. Some are great at paperwork, some are fresh out of law school, some are better litigators. There is something called therapeutic jurisprudence which is essentially doing what can be done therapeutically to keep the family intact while keeping the kids safe.

There could be many in's and out's that will shape how things unfold, things that won't be known until you initiate the information-gathering process.

I'm so sorry you're going through this. BPD is such a heart-breaking mental illness and traumatizing for the kids. They are lucky to have you looking out for them.