My pwBPD not wellcome to meet my new nephew.

[JoeBPD81]

Hi,

This weekend I had a blow to my mental state that came from an unexpected place. My sister, 44, had her first child, it's my 8th niece overall. She never invites family to her house, so it didn't surprise us that she didn't want any visit in the hospital. But after that, we wanted to meet the baby, of course. So we asked for turns. My mom went this weekend with my older brother. And when the visit was over, I texted her to make room for us the next weekend. I told her we would be in and out in half an hour. I didn't get an anwser for some hours, and then she told me that I was welcome, but my SO and the kids are not. She said SO was the person hurting his brother (me) the most, and she's not comfortable seeing her holding her baby.

I've been trying to convince my SO for years that she was welcomed in my family. I'm not sure if I've been fooling myself about that. But she's not a hookup I met in a bar last weekend. She's the woman who was my girlfriend 9 years ago, and we've been living together 8 years, and raising 2 kids together. The world turned into a darker place. It's true that she hurts me a lot, she misunderstands me a lot, and it hurts me her emotional distance. But this doesn't mean she's a bad person, or that she would harm the baby in any way.

Well, I answer her that they are my family too, and that I can't go alone and leave them behind. That it would be devastating to my life. I told her that when she's more rested, myabe she can take the sight of us 4, and then we'd go in pack.

She said "I respect that you put your feelings on top of mine". What kind of answer is that? Repeated that I was welcome alone, and that she'll need time to process my answer.

I told her I feel bad about making her uncomfortable at this time in her life. But this had been unexpected.

I work so hard at convincing my people that they are not undesirable. I can't break that so my sister is not uncomfortable for a few seconds that my SO would be holding the baby. It's been hard since to mantain a good face at home. I can't explain why I'm hurt. Mind you, SO has been nothing but polite and sweet to my parents, siblings and nephews. She's very shy with them, but that's all. She's small, smells always good, never raises her voice... She's not a menacing presence at all. That's how she is with everyone but me, I'm inside "the circle of disregulation", I'm so close that I get part of her own pain.

I'm not sure where to go from here, if my sister doesn't change her mind. We've been all eager to meet and hold the baby. since we know she was pregnant.

[ForeverDad]

Your sister is aware of issues in your family, and especially at this time with a newborn she has set a boundary regarding visitors.  That's her right.  She doesn't want to deal with any risk to her peace and joy and recovery after childbirth.

Also, consider that due to her age she may be unlikely to have another baby in the future.  This baby is a precious gift to her.  She did say you could visit.  Can you accept her boundary gracefully?  As she wrote, think more about her with her new baby than about yourself.

This was my experience.  In the final years I was with my now ex-spouse, I had relatives who refused to be around her because of all the chaos and discord and pain she'd caused.  I divorced but after some 15+ years they still don't want to be around my ex.  The old saying, "once burned twice shy".  And I don't blame them for that.

[JoeBPD81]

I would understand if she had created any chaos and pain around my family. But it's not the case.

She's been a loving aunt to our nephews, they are older now and they text both of us, and love to come to visit.

Of course the baby is precious, and she'll be sensitive about everything.

My feelings are hurt but I don't care too much. I care that my kids and my SO are suicidal and already thinking they are too weird (autistic) to live among normal people. And knowing that their aunt/sister in law also thinks about them that way would be devastating. There is no nice way of telling them.

And this didn't have any build up. My sister never told me anything about it. She and her husband have been around us plenty of times. And there was never a conflict.

[kells76]

This is difficult stuff. It's like -- you're already trying so hard to keep your family together, that to hear your sister say that only you are welcome, must be deeply hurtful.

There's that old saying "win the battle but lose the war" that came to mind. Not that I think the conflict part of the saying applies, more the idea of -- there is the short term view of the problem right in front of us today, and then there is how that fits in to a longer term goal.

It sounds like you would love for your family (your GF and the boys) to be able to spend quality time with your sister and that side of the family. So that is a bigger goal for you.

Let's find a way to get a different perspective on this short term/immediate issue that can help with your long term goal, of all the family enjoying time together.

What if we reframed this initial visit, of "just JoeBPD81 and sister and baby", not as "the final statement" on who is included/accepted and who is not, but just one small step in the longer process of building that relationship with the new baby?

For example -- a way to talk about this first visit to your family, of just you and sister and baby, could be: "she is building up to having the strength to see everyone together; first she'll try just one person, after that, she may feel stronger and more able to welcome all of us together".

And when you visit your sister and baby, maybe the fact that you can accept just you going could signal to your sister -- hey, JoeBPD81 hears that I am overwhelmed/tired and listens, so now I will listen to him as he shares that he'd love to find a time later for his whole family to visit and celebrate.

There's a lot of stress and exhaustion going on for you and your sister, which makes family get togethers challenging -- for now.

It doesn't have to be forever, though. My hope would be that her desire for this visit could be seen as a "just for now" thing instead of a "this is how I feel about them for all eternity" thing.

I think your point that your GF hasn't created conflict with your family in the past, is actually a really important insight. Perhaps that could be pointing to -- it's not about your GF, it might really just be about your sister being exhausted (44 is not young to have a baby!).

I wonder how it'd go if you could model to your GF and the kids -- "hey, I'm disappointed too, but I know it isn't anything personal... can you imagine giving birth at 44... no wonder my sister is exhausted... I'll see how she feels when I go, and when I get back I'll let you know how soon she's up for seeing all of us together".

It just makes a lot of sense that it hurts you more right now, with everything you're going through.. which is a lot. You'd like to have joyous family times together in the middle of your pain and challenges -- who wouldn't want that.   

[JoeBPD81]

Thanks for your understanding and tips.

The problem is that we recently almost broke up because of this issue. That she thinks that my family thinks about her like a rock in my neck. She already thought I had sneaked out to meet the baby on my own. And I was mad at her for believing that.

I was expecting this baby to mean a step forward, not backwards, because SHE loves babies more than anything in the world.

Last weekend my brother was already there with his family, 6 people, including our mother. This was the second time they've been welcome in her house in the last ten years. We are at my brothers all the time, and we spend time at my other sister's house who lives out of town.

So they already had a long visit of 6 people, and I'm giving her another week to recover and asked for a 30 minutes visit, just to say hello and give her a present. I've been the one reminding the family to keep the visits short and reminding them she asked to be left in peace the first days.

So I can't sell the idea that we would overcrowd her house, when we all have seen the pictures of last weekend.

[Notwendy]

I found this interesting as my BPD mother and my father's family had a mutual dislike for each other. They were cordial to each other but that was about it. I don't think they excluded her but she often wasn't interested in visiting. Mostly it was us kids, my father sometimes and rarely her.

I assumed that after my father passed away, she'd have no interest in visiting them. We knew she didn't like them. So when they had a family get together but didn't invite her she was furious. She still expected an invitation, even though she knew she wouldn't attend.

I think your concern is similar- to not have the invitation from your sister to see the baby would somehow feel invalidating and insulting to your SO, even if your SO and your sister don't have a good connection. And I think this is a key point- you are worried mainly about how your SO is feeling- not your sister's feelings. But it's your sister who just had the baby and it's her baby- her choice.

In my own situation, my relationship with my BPD mother is different than the one my father had with her. The bond is different. Yes, a mother is a significant relationship and I do care about her feelings but I am not in a romantic bond with her. My father put her feelings first, often excusing her behavior and expecting others to do the same.

My parents did come visit the "new baby" when my children were born, but it was a different situation than when my in laws visited. My MIL was a naturally nurturing person, and I am comfortable around her. With my BPD mother, the dynamics are different, even if she was on her best behavior which she was with the baby.

To take your sister's perspective. Having a baby is physically and emotionally demanding and at 44, that is a lot for your sister. After birth, there's a drop in hormones and also, the baby is needing constant attention, feeding at all hours. She's both overjoyed and exhausted. She is in need of support, emotionally and physically. Even if your SO behaves nicely, your sister knows that there are issues and she doesn't want to see it right now. She's decided on this boundary and it's her choice to make. It's understandable that she has a preference for some visitors.

"You are putting your feelings on top of hers" Absolutely- you are choosing your SO's feelings over your sister's at the moment. But she's post partum, exhausted, and this is her decision to make. This is a similar difference between me and my father. His focus was on my mother and somehow this also made it hard for him to see my perspective- and vice versa. With my BPD mother- people are either on her side or not her side. He had to choose her side and he did. You may be in a similar dilemma- your sister's feelings or your SO's. To take your sister's perspective- she doesn't want to be in this position either. She cares about you but doesn't share your feelings about your SO. She's the one who just had a baby. It's her baby and her choice.

[JoeBPD81]

I'm taking my sister's feelings into account. I know it's not easy for her. I've offered to wait as long as she wants for us to visit.

But you are forgetting about the kids. They just had a cousin, and they are banned to meet him. In your story you would have been banned from your father's family.

My sister has had my home open to her all her life. When she was alone, and when she's had a partner (some of her ex-partners still write me for my birthday). She's had it open and she visited whenever she liked with my SO and the kids too. We weren't invited to her home, and my mother was only once invited after years of being married and having a house. This weeked was the 2nd time our mother was invited to her house. We meet often at our brother's, and at my parent's house when my father was OK.

My SO never made a scenne, or argued, or anything unpleasant with anyone in my family. S12 is unruly and hyperactive, but he mostly disapears with my nephew (14) who is also hyperactive. She's been nice and affectionate and a good host when they came to visit.

My sister knows that as a romantical partner, SO makes me suffer a lot, mainly because I've vent with my siblings when she has broken up with me. And I understand that builds up resentment towards her. But as an aunt and a sister-in-law, she's been lovely. She does want to see them. And if it weren't for S17 state, we would be there much more often (but he barely leaves the bed, and can't be left alone, because he's in suicide alert).

It is in my sister's right, and I told her that. But I'm begging her to welcome us all whenever she's ready. To arrive, give them a hug and leave.

I didn't tell her I didn't kill myself 9 days ago because I didn't want people to remember that in my niece's birthday every year. I didn't tell her my SO and the kids talk about killing themselves almost everyday, because they don't see any reason to live for. I didn't tell her that's the situation of the people she's rejecting. 3 people in therapy and psychiatric care, and myself almost broken. I didn't want to burden her or guilt her into changing her mind, even though it is the truth I live everyday.

My sister is 44 now, but she's been living as a college student until she was 40. Drinking and partying. Most of that time paid by my parents. She decided to have kids late. She's not to blame about my life, but I'm not to blame for her having a kid so late either. I'm only asking her to welcome us 4 when she's ready, because we are a family unit. I'm not demanding it or pressuring her.

I understand it is not a one sided black or white situation. She has a point. But the consecuences of doing what she wants could be fatal. The consecuences of her waiting until she's ready, and let us 4 see the baby are some minutes of awkwardness. That's why I can't just put my sister's feelings first.

[Notwendy]

I understand- it is a divisive situation. FWIW as an adult, I had boundaries with my mother. The result is that I was "banished" in ways  from my own father, who had to take her side, as well as alienated from my relatives on her side of the family for several years. Unfortunately, I understand the predicament. Your sister is risking her relationship with you due to her wanting boundaries. On your part, it seems completely unreasonable. My father probably felt that way too.

The whole situation is sad and unfortunate. I don't think families should be divided like this. Unfortunately they are. I do feel badly for you, your SO and your kids. I also think your sister has reasons that you may not comprehend. I had my reasons too. I did not expect the consequences of them. I never wanted to have them result in what happened.

I'm not saying your position is wrong or unreasonable but it's possible neither is your sisters. You both have a different perspective on your relationship with your SO. You may think you are the only one affected by her behavior. I can say that too- it was very difficult for me to see how my mother behaved towards my father. I loved him. Your sister loves you too.

It's unfortunate, for all of you.

[Notwendy]

I think probably the best way to keep possibilities open with your sister is to respect her boundary - it's her baby. She decides who visits her baby.

Maybe she's hormonal, feeling tired, and this is about all she can handle right now. If you show her that you do respect her boundaries, (even if you don't agree with her)- she may feel safer to allow a visit later. One reason people have boundaries is because they don't feel safe around someone. This could be emotional safety too. You mentioned your SO is a small size person. My BPD mother is too. She can not physically hurt me. But she has poor boundaries and unpredictable moods and this involves emotional safety. Your sister is in an emotionally vulnerable state right now.

I don't think I had much contact with my father's family as a baby. As an older child, we could be sent to visit them on our own. This baby is only a few days old.

Don't be reactive, simply say " I understand you have a lot to deal with now and I hope to meet baby at another time". Send a baby gift from you and your family. Keep the doors open, don't push. Even if you feel she is being unreasonable I think you have a better chance of keeping your connection with her if you accept her boundary for now. 

[JoeBPD81]

That's what I said. Kind of.

I told her my way of respecting her feelings was too wait until she feels she can handle us. But what I couldn't do was going alone leaving them behind.

Anyway, my sister finally told us 4 to go next Saturday, at a time when the baby will be asleep. So, no holding, wear masks, and we can visit. It's a good compromise.

[Cat Familiar]

I’m glad there’s a compromise.

Something you might not be considering regarding your sister’s feelings about your SO: though your SO has always been polite in the presence of your family, your sister just may not like her, regardless of how she has behaved toward you. That happens—people can just feel uncomfortable/dislike/unease toward someone else without a *logical explanation*.

And sorry, but I really understand why she wouldn’t want hyperactive boys around her or her child at this time. That makes perfect sense to me. Just thinking about it, imagining it from her perspective, made me uncomfortable.

Add in the suicidal ideation—I’d bet she has experienced an uneasy vibe being around the boys, whether or not they’ve been polite and well mannered.

[Notwendy]

It's not unusual to limit visitors to a newborn. I am glad there's compromise but it sounds more like your sister wants to limit contact with the new baby- to avoid exposure to illnesses. Even if she did have other family members come see the baby, she may have been nervous about it.

I'd be cautious about hyperactive kids around a newborn. Not that they'd intentionally do anything harmful but it might make your sister nervous.

What I wanted to point out is similar to Cat's post- others may feel differently about your SO than you do. I think the romantic bond with someone is unique. Your sister doesn't have that attachment. You have worked hard at trying to smooth over your SO's feelings. You are concerned about her and you want to see the new baby. Your sister's #1 thought is for her baby.

This isn't a right or wrong situation- a difference in priorities. Consider that your focus is the feelings of your family, and hers is now too- her focus is the baby and she's going through the physical and emotional adjustments of pregnancy and childbirth.

Glad you both were able to work something out.

[JoeBPD81]

It is curious, at work, they know my SO and my sister, and no one asked me to understand my sister's point of view. They were all outraged that she would say that.

I understand perfectly her point of view. And she could have said "this makes me uncomfortable, please give me some time, or maybe I won't feel I can welcome you all anytime soon". What I would never say is "You can come, your family can't". She even said that she was thinking about asking me to drive some other visit if I came alone.

I can picture being very uncomfortable around some people, but not asking any of my siblings to reject their partners, or kids, in my name. I know I didn't just had a baby and I can't put myself fully in her skin. I tried to calmly explain my position without saying hers was bad or unacceptable.

I have a memory of my mother that was invited to a wedding but she was asked to not bring us, the children, so she declined the invitation. I know it is not that unusual these days, and many parents even thank the opportunity of not having kids around. But at the time, it meant a lot that she stood up for us. If my kids are not welcome, I don't wanna go.

I can't talk about this because it would change the way they see my sister, because now they love her. And it would break their hearts to know that I needed to stood up for them, because she rejected them.

I think my sister didn't understand my position. Because she could have said "You would be more than welcome alone, but I understand that you can't just leave them behind". Or something along those lines.

I told her from the begining that I was sorry to bring her trouble, and that she even had to think about these things during this time in her life. That we can wait as long as she needed, but I couldn't go alone.

I never wanted her to be forced to have us all. Just to understand we are a unit.

I know people are not going to love my SO as I do. What I say about her is from experience. The people of my family and friends that bothered to talk to her, like her. She knows all the clerks in the neighbourhood, and they greet her and very often give her presents, the teachers at the schools love her too. I feel awful because I have contaminated what my sisters think about her, because they think they know her through my suffering. If people didn't knew I was an honest person, they wouldn't have believed me for a second when I relate things that happen at home.

[Notwendy]

I responded to this thread because- family dynamics are a part of every family and when there are disordered people in a family- this impacts the dynamics. I too have experienced these different points of view. When BPD mother explains her side of the story, people believe her that I am the person in the wrong. That nobody asked you to consider your sister's point of view- well neither did anyone in contact with my mother ask the same.

The reason I brought it up is that in any conflict or disagreement, there are two sides to the story, and each person has their reasons- whether or not they are reasonable or "right" or "wrong" - there is a reason. So we know your side- asking you about considering why your sister wants what she wants is a part of the relationship. If it's a misconception, you have the chance to clear it up if possible.

My mother's family operates as a "unit" too. If you invite one of them, you have to have them all. My mother also relates stories about family members refusing to attend if only some are invited- standing up for the pack. And not all are disordered- this is their family dynamic.

For me, this became a concern about cost and space when planning events. As their family grew, we could not accommodate everyone. Knowing their values- all or none, I decided on none with some get togethers and they responded feeling insulted and hurt. Fast forward- some of the younger generation are getting married and due to the cost of weddings, they too have limited the guest list. I understand when they don't invite me. It's not a personal thing, but a cost/space decision. So they are now doing what once caused them to unite against.

I have been the outlier and it seems your sister is too- this is a family value and she has broken it. I don't know what her reasons are, or if she is disordered but she must have a reason. One reason we don't invite BPD mother to some family get togethers is because somehow there's drama involved. I have invited her and it's stressful. When my parents visited my newborns, BPD mother did behave, and they helped but still, the visit was stressful. The dynamics between them were stressful.

You have every right to your stance and your values. You have drawn your line- it's all of you or none of you. That is your choice to make and you have every right to do that. On the other side of this is your sister and her choices. It may also be "all of you" or "none of you" if those are the only two choices she has with you.

You aren't in the wrong - it's also possible that neither is she in the wrong. You don't have the same perspective on these things.

[ForeverDad]

It is curious, at work, they know my SO and my sister, and no one asked me to understand my sister's point of view. They were all outraged that she would say that.

There is a difference.  We here are inclined to view events and conflicts from a perspective of mental health issues.  Since BPD is a disorder that impacts most the close relationships, perhaps those at work only perceive the surface issues and not the deeper ones?

I can't talk about this because it would change the way they see my sister, because now they love her. And it would break their hearts to know that I needed to stood up for them, because she rejected them.

Much of this problem is perceptions.  Your perception is that your sister saying "not now" is rejection.  Remember how pwBPD can view thing as "all or nothing"?  It may not be that dire.

We know you're having to deal with not just your own feeling but also the feelings of the others.  With suicidal thoughts being thrown around so frequently, you having to manage all that can make your life, your feelings of joy in your life, that much harder to accomplish.

Your sister has already made arrangements for a visit, so do you see that what seemed a huge issue now a few days later is not so huge?  In other words, relax, sometimes huge issues turn out to not be so huge later on.

[livednlearned]

It also seems like confiding to your sister activated a Karpman drama triangle.

In telling others about abuse, we often portray ourselves as the victim in a conflict.

This would make your SO the perpetrator, and your sister the rescuer.

It's not uncommon to try to stabilize a rocky relationship by confiding to a third party. By doing that, however, the third party, in this case your sister, becomes part of the dynamic.

Your sister may be clumsy in how she handled things about you and SO visiting, but what comes across is a protective sister who probably feels she has limited ways to help you. An opportunity presented itself and she tried to exert some influence. With some reflection, she acknowledged it was not the solution to the problem of you feeling victimized in your relationship and now things are back to status quo.

It seems, too, that it is swinging the other way. Your SO is cast as the sweet person and doesn't deserve to be treated this way, now your sister is the perpetrator and you are cast as rescuer.

Thoughts?