Not being able to talk about certain situations without my uBPDw getting angry

[Steppenwolf]

A while ago I had this really weird situation, that I cannot fully put my hand on for a couple of reasons. We had a phone conversation that felt absolutely manipulative, but when I tried to talk with my uBPDw about it, she always tried to switch to a different point in time of that situation, and the more I tried to talk about that specific moment, the angrier she got. As if I was pushing her to a point, she just did not (or could not) want to see.

Since I need some reassurance if this would have felt manipulative, to you as well, here is the situation as verbatim as possible. Maybe also some hints on how you would have handled this situation, using one of the techniques here would be great. Background (including some feelings she told me about later): She was away for a few days, and we wanted to meet so she could take the kids to a friend's birthday party. The day before we talked about what I should make to lunch, but then I didn't watch the time and it was a bit late. The day before we only talked about when she should be at the party, not when or where we should actually meet so she could take the kids. She felt betrayed because I called too late, and she would not be able to make it in time, I wouldn't have time to make the type of lunch we talked about before (she was worried a pumpkin would spoil) etc. She overslept as well, and also would not have been able to make it in time, but of course, I was the one to blame.

Me: "OK, I can still make it before you arrive, just let me know when and where we should meet. You'll be a little late for the party, but I think it won't be a problem."

Her: "But you won't have time to make the pumpkin as we talked about yesterday."

Me: "Don't worry about it, I'll find something else I can make quickly for the kids. Just let me know when you'll be there and I'll take care of it. I'll take care of the pumpkin later."

Her: "Maybe you could make some pumpkin soup later?"

Me: "Don't worry about it, I'll figure something out and make some lunch for myself later on with it."

Her (somewhat more angry): "But you do like pumpkin soup, so you should make that." (I don't really like soup that much at all, she usually knows that. She likes soup a lot, though.)

Me: "Ah, I don't want to think about the pumpkin right now. Just let me know when I should meet you with the kids, and I'll have them ready in time for you."

Then she just hung up.



1. So at that time I felt absolutely unable to act because I never got any kind of answer on when I should meet her. So I wasn't able to plan what to make for lunch for the kids so they would be ready. I tried calling back because I wasn't sure it was intentional, but she didn't pick up until about 20 minutes later. I had situations like that before, where I did not get some information I needed and then she took longer to cool down and I was then later blamed for not doing things the way she expected (but never told me).

2. I felt manipulated because she was telling me how to prepare my own lunch and didn't respect any boundaries I tried to set up.


3. At some time later she claimed she is absolutely never manipulative in any way. Not with me and not with the kids. This came up during couples counseling, where the counselor told us we should allow each other to act and be the way they want. So I tried to talk about her, what this phone call was about, then. She was absolutely fine with talking about how I called her too late and thus was to blame for her being late at the party etc. I only tried to insist that I didn't mean that part, but specifically, the one where she told me what to make for my own lunch. She just avoided more and more, tried to talk about other parts of the phone call etc. Even when I just tried to ask her how she remembered that part shortly before hanging up, I noticed her getting closer and closer to her rage mode, so I stopped before it got ugly.



This interaction is quite typical for us, because often when discussing important things, suddenly a minor issue comes up (or like, in this case, one that is not even her business), and we start to fight about that one while the main issue remains unsolved and she cuts out. We even had some discussions like the phone call going up to the "I hate you and I want a divorce and I will move out as soon as possible, just help me find a place to stay" phase, all over some minor issue.


What are your thoughts on that? Have you experienced some situations like this, i.e. problematic behavior and then no chance of even remotely talking about it later on? How do you handle such a situation, or how could I have handled this better?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Rev]

Hello Steppenwolf,

This is THE most prevalent issue in a relationship with a pwBPD.  And I wish I had a pat answer for you - but I don't.

One reason why is that every relationship is different. And BPD is also a condition that by it's nature in really dependent on the person in the moment. pwBPD live in a world of "feelings based facts". What doesn't bother them one day is a major catastrophe the next. All of us are like that to some extent, right? All depends on our moods. Well, same for pwBPD, except everything is MUCH, MUCH, MUCH bigger.

The lesson in all if this (and trust me I am no expert and my personal situation ended in divorce because she was abusive - literally) is that timing is golden. What you say is not as important as how much you say and when you say it.

These relationships are about managing an ongoing condition that generally speaking won't change all that much over time without some serious effort on her part.

So, let's see what others come up with.

In the meantime, can you say more about  what happened in the aftermath of the conversation. How long did it take for things to calm down? Or did they calm down even?  How are you left feeling now that you have read this?  Is there a timing strategy that makes more sense to you than trying to engage her in the moment that you could live with?

Hang in there.

Reach out any time.

Rev

[kells76]

Hi Steppenwolf, thanks for being up for sharing the verbatim "he said-she said" conversation. It can be helpful to look back on exactly how things went, to make adjustments going forward that will be better for both of you.

Rev has a good "big picture" perspective to think about. I'll add some thoughts on details.

Many pwBPD struggle with feeling invalidated. Things that maybe a "generally normal" person could brush off, may feel more emotionally intense to a pwBPD -- not a small need that can be taken care of later, but a big, "slam on the brakes and focus on it now" need. I suspect that many pwBPD also struggle with effective communication -- that is, using direct words and phrases to openly communicate needs. So there might be a combination of intense, immediate emotional needs, with low-skill verbal communication about those needs.

I think we can review your conversation with your W and together we can find ways to work with the "emotional special needs" that the disorder brings to what for other couples, may have been a pretty routine problem solving interaction.

The first thing that stood out to me was this part:

Me: "OK, I can still make it before you arrive, just let me know when and where we should meet. You'll be a little late for the party, but I think it won't be a problem."

Her: "But you won't have time to make the pumpkin as we talked about yesterday."

Me: "Don't worry about it, I'll find something else I can make quickly for the kids. Just let me know when you'll be there and I'll take care of it. I'll take care of the pumpkin later."

Her: "Maybe you could make some pumpkin soup later?"

Probably we are all on the same page that this really isn't about the pumpkin.

To me, this reads like you are in problem solving mode, which makes sense -- there's lunch to figure out, plus coordinating rides and events. You are ready to get stuff done efficiently.

My gut feeling is when she read "don't worry about it", it likely came across to her as "your thoughts about this topic don't matter" and/or "the way you feel about this situation isn't important to me".

Even though that's the last thing you would want to communicate, that may have been what got communicated, because I think she's making another bid to have her feelings/thoughts cared about when she brings up the pumpkin again when she says "maybe you could make some pumpkin soup later".

For whatever reasons, she may have been feeling low/hurt/vulnerable at the start of the conversation. I suspect it felt invalidating to her when the idea that the two of you had the other day about the pumpkin, felt dismissed to her (again, even though that wasn't your intention).

Gut feeling again -- I wonder if this felt manipulative to you because at some level you sensed her trying to get needs met, but she wasn't being straightforward about it? For example, if instead of her replying to your "don't worry about it" by saying "actually, I feel sad and hurt that we can't do our idea from yesterday", maybe that would've felt less "manipulative" to you?

It can be difficult to start learning how to identify the feelings behind the words, but it is possible to build that skill. That's not to say that "it's okay not to be direct about needs", it's more accepting that she essentially has an emotional disability that impairs her ability to be direct about her intense emotional needs, and as long as she has BPD, that may be how she operates.

Pausing to spend time with the feelings behind her words may be a win for both of you. She can feel less invalidated and so can stay better regulated and let go of dysfunctional bids for care. You can feel less manipulated.

One different path forward could have been (if you caught it pretty early):

Me: "OK, I can still make it before you arrive, just let me know when and where we should meet. You'll be a little late for the party, but I think it won't be a problem."

Her: "But you won't have time to make the pumpkin as we talked about yesterday."

Me: "You know, you're right, I won't have time to do our plan -- I'm sorry, it would've been nice if I could."

It would be interesting to see how she would respond to agreement that yes, you talked yesterday together about doing XYZ, yet today, she is correct, it looks like it can't happen. That can take some energy out of a building argument and instead help her feel understood -- she's sad about it, you're sad about it, you're together in that, she is not alone in feeling disappointed. My guess is that at some level, if things had been different, and if there had been time, you would've been happy to do the plan?

Let's say that that first bid for validation got missed, and the conversation kept going. A second place that might indicate to you that she's wanting validation/understanding could be here:

Me: "Don't worry about it, I'll find something else I can make quickly for the kids. Just let me know when you'll be there and I'll take care of it. I'll take care of the pumpkin later."

Her: "Maybe you could make some pumpkin soup later?"

Me: "Don't worry about it, I'll figure something out and make some lunch for myself later on with it."

So this is the second time she brings it up. Again, my gut feeling is she's wanting some acknowledgment of her disappointment/feelings.

My guess is that when you say "don't worry about it" a second time, you're again focused on efficiency/getting stuff done?

It may be better for your relationship to steer away from "don't worry about it" -- it can come across as invalidating, and not just to pwBPD (it drives me crazy when my H tells me "don't worry about it" and doesn't then take responsibility for/propose a plan for the thing we're talking about).

A different approach there could again be to find a point of agreement with her (without "caving in" or not acknowledging the reality of the moment):

Me: "Don't worry about it, I'll find something else I can make quickly for the kids. Just let me know when you'll be there and I'll take care of it. I'll take care of the pumpkin later."

Her: "Maybe you could make some pumpkin soup later?"

Me: "I think you're right, making it later makes a lot of sense -- how about this weekend. For today, do you think the kids would like PB&J or ham sandwiches better?"

You know her best, so you would know whether adding a choice/opportunity for input (about the kids' lunches) for her would be helpful, or would be overwhelming. Sometimes less is more, so ending your statement with "how about this weekend" might be more calming.

Me: "Don't worry about it, I'll figure something out and make some lunch for myself later on with it."

Her (somewhat more angry): "But you do like pumpkin soup, so you should make that." (I don't really like soup that much at all, she usually knows that. She likes soup a lot, though.)

Me: "Ah, I don't want to think about the pumpkin right now. Just let me know when I should meet you with the kids, and I'll have them ready in time for you."

Yeah, after two "don't worry about it" statements, she may feel unheard/unimportant, so she is escalating her indirect communication with feelings behind it.

Overall, my thought is that as much of a time crunch as you two were under, long-term I think you will have better collaboration -- and things may actually go quicker -- when you can take the lead in identifying those bids she makes for validation/acknowledgment and pausing right there in that moment to validate the valid/acknowledge her feelings. Otherwise, she may continue to "derail" problem-solving conversations with bids for her unmet needs.

This is not easy stuff, but I feel hopeful that building those "feelings behind the words" identification muscles can benefit both of you in the long run.

Like you said, this happens frequently. I'd guess that neither of you really wants to fight that way, ultimately -- you want to solve issues, she wants her feelings heard.

You may need to take the lead on this new approach, given her emotional limitations, but again, my hunch is that it could really help minimize the amount of escalations in your relationship and allow both of you to feel more heard (her with how she's feeling, you with needing to get things done realistically).

Any thoughts on that approach?

[Skip]

I had the same thought as Kells. Invalidation. She explains it very well. There is a video here that is also helpful. https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating

To add to the posters above... any insecure person's brain will mine a conversation for invalidating comments and tag them as the "true feelings". You see it in BPD. You see in other personalities. You see it in normal relationships.  It's not necessarily a pathology.
Knowing it's there, you can learn to not trigger it as often.

It your partner is hard of hearing... speak louder.  

My second comment is don't look for an external judge to determine who is right. and who is wrong in a relationship. I feel in that trap myself and it does work well. Sure,  someone could easily say it abusive for you partner to need you to speak louder (using my example above). That may be true in an absolute world, but if you are trying to get along in family we all have to accommodate each other and the most needy person. Think about how everyone falls over themselves to accommodate aunt Lucy when she comes for Thanksgiving in a wheelchair.

I am not saying be a doormat or that it's your responsibility to compensate for her moods, but rather, to some degree accommodate her.

[Steppenwolf]

Hi all,

Thank you for your feedback, Kells, Rev, and Skip. That is really helpful to me.

I'll try to answer you all together.

First about the external judge:
I kind of need this right now. I know in relationships there typically is no right or wrong person, but rather a lot of misunderstandings, bad communication etc. And I definitely don't want to take the opinion about what is right or wrong of others to get into her face or anything. That would not have ended well in any relationship I had (I am only human, got into that trap a couple of times and felt sorry for that), and I know it would not end well at all with my W.

However, I am currently in a phase where I am trying to figure out how to get out of some gaslighting that I believe is involved and an outside perspective is really helpful. So it's more of a process of adjusting my own feelings against her attacks. I had a different situation, where finally a therapist confirmed that what she was asking from me was absolutely impossible, but before she just kept asking me for it and blaming me for not following her requests. So it was important for me to see, that others immediately thought this to be impossible as well. So currently I am more in need of a kind of reality check for myself.

So one thing that I just noticed I did not write clearly: The conversation wasn't about how I would prepare the pumpkin for us, it was purely about how I would prepare the pumpkin for myself later that day. So it felt like she got angry over something that did not in any way impact her.

However, I guess the part about her just feeling invalidated as I changed plans (even though they don't matter to her) really fits. It's kind of what she told me explicitly. If we talk about something, and I agree, then I have to go through with it, even if it does not impact her at all, and maybe the situation eventually turns out differently, etc. If I don't then she will feel hurt and sometimes even get angry at me.

So the weird manipulative/controlling part is that she claims to let me live my life as I want, but then gets mad when I don't prepare my own lunch the way she wants me to.


But I guess the solution to the puzzle is what Kells wrote: "Probably we are all on the same page that this really isn't about the pumpkin." I think I have a good idea, of what this was really about and it fits with her behavior later on. This conversation happened during a RO from the police (in my country the police has to issue a RO after DV, I didn't get a say in that matter), so she felt betrayed as she could not come home and see the kids. Which is why I had to go meet her to bring the kids to her (the RO only covered the home, so that the police could create a safe haven for me and the kids, we were still allowed to meet anywhere else). I previously interpreted this as some kind of control to deal with her feeling betrayed, but now that I think about it, it seemed much more like a way to feel connected. This is likely why she also projected her favorite dishes at me, just keep up the show as if anything is normal. That also fits with the heavy love-bombing I received later on when we met, and then the heavy rage when I asked her politely not to yell at me or the kids for some minor issues. She cycles between "I love you"/"I hate you" quite a lot on that day, which isn't typical for her. Usually, she just goes into the "I hate you" mode once a day and then stays until she has had a good night's sleep.


So on that day, things got pretty heated, with her first love bombing and then just from one sentence going into full fight mode. In the evening she was in the full "I never want to see you ever again" mode in front of the kids. But after the RO was over she quickly got back into "I love you so much" mode.


The other weird part, was that she would absolutely not talk about this part of the conversation at all and got mad if I tried to ask her why she cared what I would make for myself for lunch, even after everything calmed down. But now, the more I think about it, I guess she did kind of answer to a degree what she meant, it's just very confusing. So she told me, she was mad at me because she did feel betrayed and rejected due to the RO. So it kind of seems to me, like her logic is in the line of "I felt rejected and betrayed, so I tried to reconnect by getting you to make one of my own favorite dishes for yourself. Since you didn't care about me reconnecting, I felt rejected again". This doesn't really process rationally for me, but it kind of fits with the feeling=facts idea. And it matches a lot of other confusing moments we had in this regard.

So thanks for giving me some ideas to reflect on. Not sure this makes any sense, as I find this still confusing. But then I found that a lot of others really struggle with the concept of feelings=facts as well. It just seems so confusing.


For me the current way is to mostly try to reduce the level of stress and conflict. I don't know how I would handle that situation today, as I don't want to lie to her or have her force a certain choice on me. And I really didn't want to think about what I'd make for myself later on at that time, so I don't know yet how to validate and still keep my boundaries intact. I am practicing SET a lot right now, and it helped a lot in calming down things. However, I am still not sure how to apply it to many situations.


She is slowly reflecting on the situation, and accepting that we need to change a lot of things if we want to heal our family. I am also trying to relax and not push, but at the same time, I am trying to figure out what I can do to stop the abuse and dysfunctional behavior that we have. So right now I am trying to call her inability to talk about some things her "We don't talk about Bruno" phase, and I just listen to that song, which weirdly does help me to be more accepting.


Oh boy, I feel thoroughly confused right now.

[Rev]

Hey!

Great answer in the sense that you are working through a lot of things with integrity.  This right here - this last sentence says a lot.  These relationships are often (always?) emotional blenders.

When I found myself in a place of confusion, I found it really helpful to take a step back and ask myself this question:

What are my internal boundaries?

What do I mean by this?  Well in this scenario, there are two basic ways to look at boundaries.

One is to set limits on the behavior of another person and hold fast to trying to find a way to reduce the transgressions. That's external boundaries. The tools are really great for that. Things like SET and JADE and BIFF.

The second is to honestly evaluate what you are available for and what you are not available for. That's internal boundaries. It is of course the other side of the coin. In perfect world, your internal boundaries and external boundaries would mesh at the mid point. In other words, you are never really dealing with more than you are available for.

Of course the world isn't perfect and so there are days that it's not 50 / 50 and one person gives a little more that day because the other person needs to take a little more that day.

Conflict arises when the imbalance is in place too long, we become worn down and lose sight of our internal boundaries and focus too much on trying to control the other person - even if our hearts are in the right place and we want the best for the relationship.  No person is a bottomless pit and eventually the cycle of abuse starts - which is a word that I see that you used.

So at times like this - I favor getting away from the details and reviewing things.

So, in a ideal situation, what are the internal boundaries that you carry?  What are you available for in terms of the emotional, financial, time commitment load of a relationship?  I would encourage you to permit yourself to answer this question in the privacy of your own heart where you imagine the ideal situation. From there you can look at reality where there will be a gap between what's ideal and what's real.

That's where the tools come in.

Thoughts?

Hang in there.

Reach out any time.

Rev

[Steppenwolf]

Thank you all for your time again. This means so much to me and seems so helpful.

I guess you are right, Rev, the last sentence really sums it up and this feeling alone is somewhat helpful. Let me explain. I was in a relationship with a dBPDx before, and this relationship really was an emotional rollercoaster. The idealization phase quickly ended within about 1-2 months after a short while we underwent almost daily push-pull cycles. She wasn't even able to stay in one place physically for more than a few weeks except for a few occasions, so she seemed like she was constantly on the flight from something (she kind of described it as if she was fleeing from herself).

So with my current W it really isn't as much of an emotional rollercoaster as I experienced it before. It's more like an emotional children's ride... But still, there are so many patterns that seem weirdly familiar from my previous relationship.


I guess one of the main familiar things is, that they both seemed to somehow lack this concept of internal boundaries or limits. Both for themselves as well as for me. For example, if my W thinks we should keep our house clean, that's what has to happen. Even if it is three o'clock at night. And then she is surprised if we are both too tired to take care of the kids or to work the next day. I guess I could also file this under feelings=facts, so if she feels the house needs to be cleaned, then that's it. But if I try to set a boundary (this would count as an internal boundary for me), then she takes my "we/I shouldn't be cleaning at three o'clock, as we would be too tired tomorrow" to be the same as "we don't need to clean the house". Right now, I still lack the tools to handle such situations. With other people, this would be such a simple misunderstanding,  but with her, I either have the choice of getting into an argument where I get the same distorted version of what I was saying thrown back at me and I try to somehow get through what I am actually trying to say. Either until we both are exhausted, at which point I have lost the energy that I was trying to save anyway, or until she goes into the full "Why do you always have to argue, I hate you so much for it and I want a divorce". Or I just agree and then clean the house at three o'clock and accept I won't really be able to handle work well the next day.


Yeah, it's confusing, but it is also exhausting.


I guess you are right. I am focused a lot on her behavior and how to stop it from costing me energy or hurting me or the kids. I am still thinking a lot, if only I could get her to see the difference between "We should not be cleaning the house at three o'clock" and "We shouldn't be cleaning the house", then everything would be simpler and I could maintain my internal boundaries. But more and more, I am realizing this is futile. I cannot get this difference across, because that is a rational point, but in her emotional world, these two phrases really are the same.


Unfortunately, these distortions are often so convincing, that I just keep getting pulled in. A similar thing happened during MC, when we were discussing one of the latest fights. The MC quickly turned on me, what kind of bad H I must be if I really think that I don't have to participate in cleaning the house? No, that wasn't why I went to my W and tried to talk to her. It was about cleaning at that specific time instead of maybe another time.


So yeah, I guess you are right, this is a lot about tools. Mindfulness to be aware of my internal boundaries and to figure out if it feels ok to be doing whatever at that time. Also, mindfulness to be aware when she is pulling her distortions over me and this would circumvent my boundaries. I guess it's the same with herself, she is just as much pulling her distortions over her not to notice her own boundaries, and boy she can really exhaust herself as well and not even notice it at all while doing it.


I am still processing a lot of what you wrote, but I cannot really put it into words as well. What I wrote above must seem confusing enough for others, but that is mostly a reflection of the everyday confusion I experience in my family. I am currently looking for therapy myself, as a lot of people have suggested this may be helpful in such a situation. Maybe this can help me get back to a more ordered state of mind.

[Rev]

I am still processing a lot of what you wrote, but I cannot really put it into words as well. What I wrote above must seem confusing enough for others, but that is mostly a reflection of the everyday confusion I experience in my family. I am currently looking for therapy myself, as a lot of people have suggested this may be helpful in such a situation. Maybe this can help me get back to a more ordered state of mind.

Beauty!

That is the whole point of the exercise!  My own T would constantly say - "Rev do whatever is necessary to stay in your rational mind."  That doesn't mean to ignore one's emotions. It means find the balance.   It takes work - AND - you are on the road.

Your reflections reveal a considered, and kind, person who wants what is "best" for everyone.  Hang in there my friend. You have a good heart.

Rev

[Steppenwolf]

That is the whole point of the exercise!  My own T would constantly say - "Rev do whatever is necessary to stay in your rational mind."  That doesn't mean to ignore one's emotions. It means find the balance.   It takes work - AND - you are on the road.

Yeah, and it somehow feels good to be on the road. But at the same time, the situation is really weird right now. We had some situations that typically might have led to a split, but she did not split me. I think it's been over two months since she last was looking for a different place to live and asking for a divorce. Right now she's even back at planning for another child mode. This isn't anything I would agree to at the moment, but it shows that she must feel safe right now.

Your reflections reveal a considered, and kind, person who wants what is "best" for everyone.  Hang in there my friend. You have a good heart.

Yeah, I do want the best for everyone, but being validating while not validating abusive behavior is hard right now. Also, when I try to find the best for everyone, I tend to forget myself every once in a while.

[kells76]

Hey, thanks for replying and filling out the background some more. It does help to learn some more details about what makes your situation unique.

This was very helpful to share:

This conversation happened during a RO from the police (in my country the police has to issue a RO after DV, I didn't get a say in that matter), so she felt betrayed as she could not come home and see the kids. Which is why I had to go meet her to bring the kids to her (the RO only covered the home, so that the police could create a safe haven for me and the kids, we were still allowed to meet anywhere else).

If you are comfortable doing so, can you talk some more about this?

When did the RO happen -- was it before you joined here?

In your country/area, is it common for the wife/mom to get an RO and the husband/dad to stay with the kids, or is it uncommon?

Is it common for an RO to cover just the home, but not other contact (phone, in person, etc)?

Lots of questions, I know -- just getting a better feel for what was happening around that conversation.

...

One more question -- am I reading you correctly that you are interested in bettering/improving the marriage relationship?

I only ask because sometimes when one parent has an RO, the other parent is not interested in maintaining/improving the romantic relationship, and wants to work on unwinding the romantic relationship while developing a "two houses for the kids" coparenting relationship.

Again, just making sure I'm understanding your goals, because the feedback may be different depending on what path forward you want.

[Steppenwolf]

Ok, so here is the background, but I am not sure I can fill in the legal details. The whole situation happened before I joined here. It was only during the time out that I figured that really BPD might be at play here. So I am fairly new to approaching things from a different angle.


My W had some issues with DV before, so I talked to some people about it. One thing I was told was, that if things go down the hard way, I would be severely disadvantaged because most people don't think a man can be a victim of DV and a woman the perpetrator. So I was advised to find a way to get any signs of DV documented immediately so that I would be safer if things go southwards.

After one of the fights where she got violent at me, I went to the police. Not to report her, but only to get things documented. However, as the police explained, as soon as they are aware of any kind of DV, they immediately have to issue a temporary RO that forbids the other person from entering the home for a while. They also informed me that I could file for a longer RO if I needed to during that time etc. I told them that this wasn't what I wanted, but they just were like, "sorry, you really don't get a say in this". So it's just the party that goes to the police gets to stay and the other has to leave. They also told me I could have any kind of contact, I just wasn't allowed even to let her enter the home and I would also be fined if I tried to circumvent the RO.

So it wasn't really something I had ever wanted. However, this was close to happening anyway, as one of our neighbors is a policewoman and witnessed some intense fights. She already suspected my wife of being violent and later told me she would have had to issue the same RO against her if she'd seen any clear signs of DV on me.

It was a really hard time because for a while I believed this would have ended the relationship. It wasn't really the first time she left and said she'd never return, but obviously, she was more furious than during the other times. I just maintained the firm position that she is still welcome back if she wants to work on the issues with me, which is something we started to do shortly before the RO situation. In some weird way, the RO also helped me, because it allowed me to put forth more clearly that violence and abuse are absolutely unacceptable. Before she often tried to pull the "but other families are worse with the DV" card, or even that her own family was worse (actually confirmed by her sister). Also, I think she is somewhat afraid that our neighbor might see something and she'd get in trouble again, which I think actually helps her to control herself. She told me before, that to a large degree, she only follows rules because she is very afraid of getting caught and punished.

So for my goals: Yeah, I still hope that this family has a future together. Weirdly enough I still love my wife, and I cannot really see her as a violent person. When she goes into rage mode, she typically seems more like a wild trapped animal to me. I know from her, that she has gone through a lot. My wish is for things to get better, and definitely for the abuse and DV to stop. Right now it mostly has, which I think is both due to her trying to control herself more and me trying to understand her way of thinking more and applying the tools I found here. But if we cannot find a way for the abuse to stop, I will leave, because most importantly I have to protect the kids and myself (and I realized I didn't do a good enough job before).


Yeah, it's messed up, but right now it actually does seem to be improving. But then again, when I try to talk about improvements for our family, it's all my fault. Like she's never controlling, the violence is only a reaction to me starting an argument etc. And of course, when she talks about our MC with anyone, the counselor always agrees with her and tells me all the things I am doing wrong. Then I see her efforts at improving things/behaviors, that earlier she claimed were absolutely my fault and that she claimed she would always keep doing the same way as this for her would be clearly the only way to handle these things.

Did I mention I am utterly and thoroughly confused often enough?

[kells76]

This is really helpful for understanding the dynamics in your relationship; thanks for the background.

My W had some issues with DV before, so I talked to some people about it. One thing I was told was, that if things go down the hard way, I would be severely disadvantaged because most people don't think a man can be a victim of DV and a woman the perpetrator. So I was advised to find a way to get any signs of DV documented immediately so that I would be safer if things go southwards.

Yes, that can be common in areas of the US here, too. Either way, documenting what happens in the relationship is critical. Sometimes, at least in the US, the parent who is the victim of DV can be "held accountable" for not protecting the children from seeing/hearing inter-parent DV. It isn't fair, but it happens. Basically, the situation can be -- if there is DV between the parents, the children can sometimes be removed from both parents, because the parent receiving DV allowed the children to be exposed to it. Worth researching if it is like that in your country/area.

Were your W's previous "issues with DV" documented somewhere (previous legal/police reports)?

After one of the fights where she got violent at me, I went to the police. Not to report her, but only to get things documented. However, as the police explained, as soon as they are aware of any kind of DV, they immediately have to issue a temporary RO that forbids the other person from entering the home for a while. They also informed me that I could file for a longer RO if I needed to during that time etc. I told them that this wasn't what I wanted, but they just were like, "sorry, you really don't get a say in this". So it's just the party that goes to the police gets to stay and the other has to leave. They also told me I could have any kind of contact, I just wasn't allowed even to let her enter the home and I would also be fined if I tried to circumvent the RO.

So it wasn't really something I had ever wanted. However, this was close to happening anyway, as one of our neighbors is a policewoman and witnessed some intense fights. She already suspected my wife of being violent and later told me she would have had to issue the same RO against her if she'd seen any clear signs of DV on me.

How is that going for you, following the RO? How long will it be in place for?

What was it like to hear that your neighbor saw the real situation?

It was a really hard time because for a while I believed this would have ended the relationship. It wasn't really the first time she left and said she'd never return, but obviously, she was more furious than during the other times. I just maintained the firm position that she is still welcome back if she wants to work on the issues with me, which is something we started to do shortly before the RO situation. In some weird way, the RO also helped me, because it allowed me to put forth more clearly that violence and abuse are absolutely unacceptable. Before she often tried to pull the "but other families are worse with the DV" card, or even that her own family was worse (actually confirmed by her sister). Also, I think she is somewhat afraid that our neighbor might see something and she'd get in trouble again, which I think actually helps her to control herself. She told me before, that to a large degree, she only follows rules because she is very afraid of getting caught and punished.

As far as you know, has she done any legitimate work on her own, while the two of you have been separated?

In my area, there is a counseling practice that has provided "batterer intervention" classes for years. It is a substantial commitment of at least 90 minutes per week, weekly, for up to one year. They have had legitimate success stories, though I do not know if the successful graduates had PD's or not.

Are there any conditions like that (i.e., attending and completing an intervention program) on your W at the end of the RO period?

I understand how difficult it must have been to all of a sudden be in the middle of this RO process, when it wasn't necessarily the route you would have chosen. Yet you are realizing that it sends a powerful message about what you will and won't accept in a relationship.

So for my goals: Yeah, I still hope that this family has a future together. Weirdly enough I still love my wife, and I cannot really see her as a violent person. When she goes into rage mode, she typically seems more like a wild trapped animal to me. I know from her, that she has gone through a lot. My wish is for things to get better, and definitely for the abuse and DV to stop. Right now it mostly has, which I think is both due to her trying to control herself more and me trying to understand her way of thinking more and applying the tools I found here. But if we cannot find a way for the abuse to stop, I will leave, because most importantly I have to protect the kids and myself (and I realized I didn't do a good enough job before).

It makes sense that you hope that your family can heal and be together. This may be a key time where you see if your W can process that there are big consequences for DV, and that only she can choose to change herself.

It's good that you recognize that the abuse is not your fault, and that at the same time, there are more and less effective approaches for keeping you and the family safe. Kind of the message of the site -- without casting blame or fault, we can commit to stopping making things worse on our end, as we try to make things better.

Have you ever reached out to a DV hotline before? I'd be curious what kind of safety plan they might recommend for you and the kids. If you aren't comfortable talking to someone on the phone, here's an example of a safety plan you can fill out on your own (US-based site).

It's a balance between -- she is abusive and violent, and commits DV. This is not okay for you or the kids. And -- you may have ways to "decline to be around" if she is violent again. A safety plan can help you and the kids figure out the safest way to be a family. The "safest way to be a family" can look a lot of different ways. If she commits to treatment, then it could look like all of you together. If she doesn't, it could look like you and the kids living in a different place from her, and her having supervision when she spends time with the kids. There are a lot of possibilities.

Yeah, it's messed up, but right now it actually does seem to be improving. But then again, when I try to talk about improvements for our family, it's all my fault. Like she's never controlling, the violence is only a reaction to me starting an argument etc. And of course, when she talks about our MC with anyone, the counselor always agrees with her and tells me all the things I am doing wrong. Then I see her efforts at improving things/behaviors, that earlier she claimed were absolutely my fault and that she claimed she would always keep doing the same way as this for her would be clearly the only way to handle these things.

How long have you two been seeing this MC?

...

I think my last question is:

If I'm reading your previous posts correctly, she was the one who didn't want kids, originally.

Since having kids, has she developed an identity as "mom"? Does she relate socially to other moms, as "a mom"? Does she seem to derive a sense of worth from "being a mom"?

Relatedly, did/does she derive a sense of self/identity from "being a homemaker" or taking care of household tasks, especially food related?

Still working out in my head what may have been going on in "the pumpkin" conversation.

[Steppenwolf]

Yes, that can be common in areas of the US here, too. Either way, documenting what happens in the relationship is critical.
Sometimes, at least in the US, the parent who is the victim of DV can be "held accountable" for not protecting the children from seeing/hearing inter-parent DV. It isn't fair, but it happens. Basically, the situation can be -- if there is DV between the parents, the children can sometimes be removed from both parents, because the parent receiving DV allowed the children to be exposed to it. Worth researching if it is like that in your country/area.

I don't really know the laws, but from what I know in my country children rarely get removed from families. It is really used as a very last resort after CPS has tried every other option. More often they try to help the families, etc. I've talked to the women who is responsible at CPS, and it really doesn't seem that they have any plans like that. Rather they are looking for ways to help us and the children.

I'll try to put some more matters into perspective and also jump ahead to some questions below. Since DV can have a large range of severity, I think it is important to clarify what we are talking about. So my W is mostly stable. As I wrote in another post, I was in another BPD relationship before, and after a few months, this involved rapid shifts between black and white, sometimes even within a few days. With my W she is mostly a loving and caring person, but then she might suddenly get triggered etc, and then she goes Mrs. Hyde. Before the current year, which I would call our crisis year, she'd go Mrs. Hyde at most a few days per month. And only a very few of these Mrs. Hyde episodes involved physical violence. Most of the time I can somewhat anticipate her Mrs. Hyde episodes. However, there have been a few episodes, when she was very stressed, where something triggered her so badly she suddenly hit me. Also, since I am much stronger than her, I don't really feel threatened. Most of the time, when she tried to hit me, I could just block her off. There have been very few times, where getting hit also got through to me emotionally and I also hit her back. But mostly it was one-sided violence. Those "previous issues" I mentioned where all in our marriage during the last years. If I try to talk about it with her, her main excuse is that it is worse in other families. While she isn't wrong about that, it really counts as a very lame excuse in my book, so I don't take that argument.

Most of the time, I perceive my W as a loving and caring person, who really tries to figure out the best for the kids and me, but then she frequently goes overboard. I talked to her about this, and she decided in her trail of destruction she could best relate to Elmyra Duff from looney tunes. Regarding the BPD types, I would mostly see her as a waif, but she definitely can also switch to other types at some times. However, we also talked about her being bullied at school and she told me if she'd had access to guns during her teenage years she'd gone Columbine at her classmates. Sometimes it's like a lot of hatred she has stored away in some dark corner of her mind surfaces for a moment, and I have really never seen that much hatred in anyone else's face and voice like in these times. So I am not sure how much of this statement is exaggerated or joking. Quite frankly, this enormous amount of hatred and rage she keeps locked up somewhere inside herself really scares me at some times.

I talked to a DV hotline before. In my country there is a DV hotline specifically for male victims, so I called there. They gave me the advice to document it. Besides that, I only got a run message from the hotline, but I wouldn't be here if that was what I wanted.

Were your W's previous "issues with DV" documented somewhere (previous legal/police reports)?

We've had the police over once, but that time no physical violence was involved. Someone just called them because of a very intense fight we had. But since they had no sign of either of us acting violent or anything, neither of us was drunk etc. they just told us to find help with our issues, especially since we are responsible for our kids. The second time the officer living next door came over during a fight, but although she showed her badge, she immediately told us that she was there in private trying to help us. So only the first incident is documented and not specifically as DV or with my W mentioned as the perpetrator.

How is that going for you, following the RO? How long will it be in place for?

What was it like to hear that your neighbor saw the real situation?

Oh, boy, you are really asking the hard questions. As for the legal stuff: the temporary RO was in effect 10 days. They told me I could have extended it, but I didn't want to. So it has been lifted for a while now, but I am still trying to process it.

Our relationship has always involved some behaviors that I would call gaslighting. However, my dBPDexgf definitely was much stronger when it came to emotional manipulation and gaslighting. But also, this previous relationship caused me to be somewhat over-aware of manipulation and also to develop some responses that allow me to fight it off if I notice it, but which aren't really healthy as well and have often hurt my current relationship as well. So I am currently trying to understand that aspect and I am trying to find ways I can set up boundaries without being hurtful. That's why I made this post, although this conversation happened quite a while ago. I'll add something below on why this baffles me so much and how it relates to setting up end enforcing boundaries.

As for how I felt during that RO. I am still thinking about that a lot. When my W was asked by the police to leave our home, she was furious and I could see that locked-up rage surfacing. Since she'd told me that she hates me, wants a divorce and never see me again, I have been prepared for her leaving once and for all even emotionally, so I was sad, but nothing I couldn't handle. I think a lot about how much of this relationship is based on trauma-bond, co-dependence, or actual love. At that moment, I really believed that this would be over once and for all, as she'd never even try to understand what had happened, go into blame mode, and never come back.

Simultaneously, experiencing some time off without expecting her to ever come back felt somewhat relieving and it got a lot quieter around the house. My W typically seems like she is constantly on edge and always tense. But relaxation methods don't work for her at all, if she tries to employ any relaxation method she feels her rage coming up and then stops within a few minutes. The children and I also somewhat get influenced by that, and so we all could be much calmer during that time.

As I said before, my W really tries to gaslight me into not seeing an issue with her violence. Like, it's worse in other families and in other couples, it was worse in her own family, I caused it by trying to talk about boundaries or other problems, it's only stress and will get better if we are less stressed out, she's not as strong and therefore can't harm me, she only hit me during fights, no one can be in control all the time etc. While at least some of those are kind of true, I know none of these are any excuse for what she is doing. Still, some little self-doubt remains from the gaslighting. So knowing how our neighbor perceived the situation and that the law is extremely strict (it does not matter if it was only once, how strong the violence was, if it was during a fight etc.) showed me that my boundaries are OK. It's like she tries to convince me that my boundaries are unreasonable. I won't let her do that, but it helps to have some back-up and support.

As far as you know, has she done any legitimate work on her own, while the two of you have been separated?

She hasn't. Unfortunately, she is not in therapy, and I am still trying to get her to go to therapy. However, she is very afraid that a therapist would try to manipulate and change her. For example, she's afraid a therapist might tell her not to see things as bleak as she does, and she would see that as lying to herself, which she really doesn't want to do. And also she often claims that therapy is pointless, as she can get along quite well with herself (yeah, at other times she really doesn't) it's just everybody else in the world who is unhappy about her. So why should she go to therapy and not just everybody else?

Yeah, the "getting someone into therapy" video is still on my todo list.

In my area, there is a counseling practice that has provided "batterer intervention" classes for years.

Are there any conditions like that (i.e., attending and completing an intervention program) on your W at the end of the RO period?

Our MC advised us to reach out to CPS during the RO, as the police would contact them anyway, so I talked to them. Again I had the typical male problem, they first wouldn't believe me. Only after I specifically told them the police temporarily removed my W from our home they would listen to me.

Still, they ordered us to do a program that is currently being tested in our city for families that have experienced violence. But it is only five sessions both alone and together spread out over a few months. We still have two sessions to go. The good part is that she was able to connect to the therapist and while we got run messages both from our MC and a therapist for our S9 after they first heard about the violence, that guy never gave us any run messages. The organization that is doing that program also offers family therapy, so we (and luckily that also includes her) hope we can find something there. It's a silver lining that she might finally go into something at least somewhat related to therapy.

I don't think batterer intervention would not fit her, and she'd really feel invalidated and maybe even let it out on me for putting her through this. Typically (except for the crisis year) she is 95% Dr Jekyl and only 5% Mrs. Hyde. She also dissociates from her Mrs. Hyde phases to a degree, so I don't think that would help anything but rather make matters worse.

I understand how difficult it must have been to all of a sudden be in the middle of this RO process, when it wasn't necessarily the route you would have chosen. Yet you are realizing that it sends a powerful message about what you will and won't accept in a relationship.

Yes, it has created a protective boundary. I sometimes see that she can somehow manage herself emotionally in a way I don't understand. She knows that something like that could happen if she gets violent again, and that helps her not to do it.

How long have you two been seeing this MC?

Our first session at the MC was just a few days before I went to the police. Our first session rather increased our problems instead of helping us. In part, I realized that this was in part my fault, as I tried to tread lightly and did not want to talk about the full extent of the problem. So my W dominated the session and tried to make it look like ordinary couple problems around how to manage chores in the household, parenting issues etc. I tried to tell her that my W has a problem with aggression, but she didn't want to hear it. We talked about it later and my W had the total opinion that our MC told me about all the things I was doing wrong in our relationship and that I should do things very differently. I tried to talk to her if she found the MC had told her about anything she could improve on, and she was like "nope, I don't really see anything she mentioned". That in part triggered the argument before I went to the police. At some time we got to the point that our MC told us not to try to control or manipulate the other and to be accepting. I also asked if she ever felt controlled or dominated by me, and her response was something along the lines that I was controlling her if I didn't do things the way she asked me to... Yeah, that didn't compute for me. I am kind of beginning to understand what this could have meant for her and how to relate to that, but at that time it really fueled our fight. Yeah, I really did not handle that statement well, either, I realized that now.

If I'm reading your previous posts correctly, she was the one who didn't want kids, originally.

Since having kids, has she developed an identity as "mom"? Does she relate socially to other moms, as "a mom"? Does she seem to derive a sense of worth from "being a mom"?

I'll leave the final question open for now. In part because I cannot really answer without thinking a lot about it. It would be one of those "it's complicated" moments and it would probably take up a lot of space trying to answer that question as well. So the best short answer I could give would be yes-but-no-uhh-maybe-sometimes.

[Rev]

Hi Steppenwolf,

Just wanted to congratulate you on all the effort you're putting into this ...

There's lots of reasons for that -

1) It's the right thing to do.
2) It's good for you personally, right?  Good for you.
3) It helps everyone on the team learn.  Every story shed's light on someone else's story.
4) You just never know who is reading who will be inspired by your efforts and your integrity.

I'll just keep following 'cause you're into the details here with a great back and forth with Kells.

As a former victim of DV and now with a cease and desist written to my ex - just know that you are not alone. Stats show that this is not so visible in our society but now exists in equal numbers to women as more men come forward.  The DV doesn't look the same, and where men are concerned, the impact is somewhat different - and that doesn't negate how damaging it can be.

Hang in there.

Reach out any time.

Rev

[Steppenwolf]

When I found myself in a place of confusion, I found it really helpful to take a step back and ask myself this question:

What are my internal boundaries?

What do I mean by this?  Well in this scenario, there are two basic ways to look at boundaries.

One is to set limits on the behavior of another person and hold fast to trying to find a way to reduce the transgressions. That's external boundaries. The tools are really great for that. Things like SET and JADE and BIFF.

The second is to honestly evaluate what you are available for and what you are not available for. That's internal boundaries. It is of course the other side of the coin. In perfect world, your internal boundaries and external boundaries would mesh at the mid point. In other words, you are never really dealing with more than you are available for.

Ok, so I have been thinking A LOT about this encounter and also about boundaries in general. I think I understand many things much better, but I still have a lot to learn.


I think I also am starting to understand, why some things seem and feel different compared to the experience of others here. So I am by now convinced by the stuff I read here, that my W definitely has a lot of BPD traits, but mostly light traits, but also some other traits that even overshadow her BPD traits and often make things complicated in a different way.


So where am I at in thinking about this? Well, if I were to re-write my original post again, I would re-state the question. You seemed to take the original question as one about right or wrong, which wasn't my intention. Rather, my question now would be if such behavior could be seen as part of the BPD symptoms. And if or how I might set boundaries around this type of behavior if (when) it occurs again.

So here are some clear statements I have arrived at by thinking about this and through your help:

- Yes, her behavior felt manipulative at that time. It was about what I would make for lunch for myself and had nothing to do with her. So trying to force me to show a certain behavior that does not impact her is a form of manipulation. I don't want this behavior in our relationship and I will try to look for ways to stop this.

- Withholding information or communication that we need to act together to get me to do what she wants is a form of manipulation. If she does that, I will just do what I think is best, and fill in the missing information the best I can. If I get it wrong according to her, I will not participate in the blame game and plainly keep the stance that I cannot act on information I am not given, and peacefully ignore her attempts at making me at fault for it.


So, from what I understand now, a lot of the reason I find this so confusing is that she has these BPD traits, but then a lot of things are completely different. For example, I cannot see the strong fear of abandonment, that a lot of people see at the core of BPD. Instead, her main fear is being manipulated. Similarly, she definitely has the emotional over-reactivity that a lot of others also see in the pwBPD, but at the same time, she says she can almost completely turn off emotions at will if it really serves here. This taken together can lead to a whole different load of disfunctional interactions the kids and I have to deal with.


So what does this mean for this type of interaction? Right now, I think the best way to approach this, if it came up again, would be a kind of SET and enforcing boundaries.

Her: "But you won't have time to make the pumpkin as we talked about yesterday."

Me: "You are right, I won't. I don't want to think about this now, I will figure out a solution later."

Her: "Maybe you could make some pumpkin soup later?"

Me: "Thank you for trying to help me, I appreciate your worries. But right now I really do want to first think about how we can meet so I can give you the kids."


Not sure this would go better. Probably not for now, when it comes to the ensuing fight, but it would feel better for me, as I have at least tried to appreciate her and to clearly communicate the boundary. So why would this still go badly? I know she would feel manipulated, which really seems to be her biggest fear, up to a level of light paranoia sometimes. I would be telling her, what we together should think about first and second (if at all). I think she might still detach from her feelings for the kids and me and quit the phone call, but thinking about this made it clear that there are some key points that have to change in the relationship.


Her boundary is around almost any discussion of her behavior or any kind of boundaries that I set for me or the kids. Trying to protect the kids or me from abuse? To her, that is a violation of one of her boundaries, because I am then manipulating her into not letting her emotions out the way she wants to. To me that is an abuse of her boundaries, because she is not using her boundaries to protect herself (maybe she is psychologically, though), but rather to hurt others or get others to do what she wants. This is hard because I really want to protect her boundaries, but doing so would leave the kids and me in an abusive situation.


So, this is just something I have to see if she can change because otherwise no relationship or family is possible. I cannot take abuse if it is masked as keeping up boundaries. Unfortunately, this really isn't something I have our MC on my side, yet, and I don't know how to really show her what the situation looks like. To our MC, if I try to point to behavior of my W that isn't OK, then she agrees that it is manipulative of me. And she kind of is right, because I am focused on the behavior of my W and want that to change instead of thinking about internal boundaries and enforcing them.


However, the structure of dependencies is so messed up, that I really don't know what kind of methods I would have available to enforce the boundaries instead of feeling helpless and focussing on her behavior. She really is in a position of power, because she can just detach from any emotional or practical dependencies at will, up to a point where she goes "I don't care about anything in life anyway" (almost suicidal ideation). I do have a lot of practical and emotional dependencies, especially if she really does detach from everything as she sometimes claims, I cannot finance the house we live in on my own, I would have to take care of three kids on my own while working to get enough money without support, the kids depend on her emotionally, I don't feel emotionally dependent on her, but I still love her so it would hurt a lot etc.


Boy, I just wish our MC would get this, because currently, she is making things worse, not better, by agreeing with my W and hence participating in the gaslighting. But to her, it's a simple world, and the abusive one is typically the man and the dependent one is always the woman. She got some idea that this might not be the case here, but I still have a long way to get through to her and I don't know how to do it.


Boy, again this is so confusing. Sometimes I really get caught up in the gaslighting, and then I am thinking that maybe I am really abusing her if I tell her that abusing me and the kids isn't OK. But then at least at other times, I get better again and I really find myself and see that abuse isn't OK and I am not at fault for pointing this out. Maybe this explains more of why my initial post really sounded needy for validation, which it kind of was. But the more I think about it, I start to understand that validation wouldn't have helped. That it would have been more like giving me fish than teaching me how to fish on my own. So it's important to understand to me, that while validation might help to get out of the immediate gaslighting and provide a grounding for me, in the end, I need to learn to stick up to what I am feeling is right.

[Rev]

Dude!!!!

This right here:

Boy, again this is so confusing. Sometimes I really get caught up in the gaslighting, and then I am thinking that maybe I am really abusing her if I tell her that abusing me and the kids isn't OK. But then at least at other times, I get better again and I really find myself and see that abuse isn't OK and I am not at fault for pointing this out. Maybe this explains more of why my initial post really sounded needy for validation, which it kind of was. But the more I think about it, I start to understand that validation wouldn't have helped. That it would have been more like giving me fish than teaching me how to fish on my own. So it's important to understand to me, that while validation might help to get out of the immediate gaslighting and provide a grounding for me, in the end, I need to learn to stick up to what I am feeling is right.

Read up the thread where you and I shared external boundaries vs. internal boundaries.  Here is a great example of you putting that into concrete practice.

Gaslighting - creates a blur between the boundaries. Leaves a person confused and then unsure how to act, meaning that boundaries can't be seen clearly.

Abuse is not okay - a wonderful external boundary. Focusses on behavior that you will not engage in nor tolerate. There are different ways to communicate that to another person. That is why we have tools.

Validation - a temporary coping mechanism but not the "fix".

"In the end, I need to learn to stick up to what I am feeling is right." - Internal boundary - existential but key to knowing how to be authentic in your actions.


Well..... done!

Rev

[Steppenwolf]

I think my last question is:

If I'm reading your previous posts correctly, she was the one who didn't want kids, originally.

Since having kids, has she developed an identity as "mom"? Does she relate socially to other moms, as "a mom"? Does she seem to derive a sense of worth from "being a mom"?

Relatedly, did/does she derive a sense of self/identity from "being a homemaker" or taking care of household tasks, especially food related?

Still working out in my head what may have been going on in "the pumpkin" conversation.

So, well. I took me a long time to figure it out. But the last few days were really an emotional rollercoaster again, and it eventually clicked. It helped that I learned to stay calm during fights and other interactions, so thanks for helping me with that. So I was much calmer and this allowed me to actually observe more of the typical pattern she has with me and the kids.

It's plain and simple projections. She feels and we have to act out her feelings because she cannot do it herself. She was afraid the pumpkin would spoil, so I had to prepare it for myself. And just telling her "don't worry" isn't enough, because then she'd have to trust me. But to project, she has to know when and how I will prepare and how I do it in the way she likes it.

I finally see through a lot of things. It explains why she pushes the kids and me so much, up to the point of abuse.

We had a heavy explosion today because I calmly drew a boundary and told her that neither I nor the kids were here to act out her emotions. She couldn't take it, so she withdrew completely. Fortunately, I could get the kids not to run after her and stay calm. She often tries to use the kids against me, because then either the kids will run after her, or if the kids are unregulated from the abuse I am not able to handle them without help. Today I stopped the yelling at me and the kids much earlier than I usually did. And it actually worked. She exploded and left, and the kids were still in shape I was able to talk to them. So I was actually able to manage an evening as a kind of mostly healthy family, except that it was just me and the kids without her.

I have been talking to the kids about boundaries the last few days. So I got the kids and talked to them and explained that yelling isn't ok and that we all have to enforce this boundary, even if it means she will run of.


So I learned today that I really have to enforce these boundaries and take care of the kids much earlier. That I really have to keep her from projecting as heavily as she does.


It's weird because when she runs off and says she wants a divorce, I always fear that this will be the final time and she will not come back this time. But I have kind of gotten used to that after a big fight, so it became easier over time. But since I just confronted her today and calmly drew a boundary before she got fully abusive, and then just let her explode, it feels different. All these fights before somehow helped me to tell myself "Well, if she's gone, then at least the fights will stop". But since she just exploded after I stayed calm, I don't really have this. So it's more fear that this time will be final.