Divorce Strategy Advice, Experts, Lawyers, Custody

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I’ll file for divorce asap. It’s unfolding. Probably full custody we are deciding today on what to do about the home and where to live. I don’t want to live there. But the place I rented I just got and have ZERO furniture not e en a garbage csn

I know the home is not the place you want to live; however, your children need to have something familiar especially if that is all that they know.  Work with a T & GAL to see if moving them out of this home is appropriate.

Do you own that home or is it rented/leased?  If so, run out the lease and then move (generally a year or less).  If you own, then it will be joint marital property and will be part of the divorce proceedings.  Alternatively, you can move their furniture out into the rental home (ask your attorney on this one) so they have familiarity of their possessions.

What are your thoughts on this?

Take Care

SD

[SaltyDawg]

I’ll file for divorce asap. It’s unfolding. Probably full custody we are deciding today on what to do about the home and where to live. I don’t want to live there. But the place I rented I just got and have ZERO furniture not e en a garbage csn

I know the home is not the place you want to live; however, your children need to have something familiar especially if that is all that they know.  Work with a T & GAL to see if moving them out of this home is appropriate.

Do you own that home or is it rented/leased?  If so, run out the lease and then move (generally a year or less).  If you own, then it will be joint marital property and will be part of the divorce proceedings.  Alternatively, you can move their furniture out into the rental home (ask your attorney on this one) so they have familiarity of their possessions.

What are your thoughts on this?

Take Care

SD

[EyesUp]

3 months is a very long time away right now - revisit this after the dust settles from the DVPO and initial custody hearings when you know more of the facts.  I strongly suspect it will most likely be possible to have the bat mitzvah, add this to your list of questions for the family law attorney the next time you talk to them on how to handle this.

I support this statement.  I think exceptions can be anticipated and granted.  That's downstream.

Also, these are the consequences of your pwBPD's behavior and actions.  She is a full participant in this via DV and threat of DV, when she should be focused on the kids. It sounds like you're the only one considering the kids at the moment, but your hand is forced by her behavior and threats, etc.  Reminder re: FOG...  It sounds like you're seeing it.

Hang in there.

[Skip]

I didn’t crest this situation but I am mindful of the pace in my 13 yos psyche that a ruined bar mitzvah holds if it is ruined due to a restraining order.

Alley',

Do you see any way to amp this down? I can tell you are well versed in the law and can afford legal resources and consultants, and you are trying to thread a needle, and I respect that.

I'm concerned that you could be teeing up an ultra high conflict situation - and in most high conflict divorces both parties feel the other one forced it - and the battle takes on a life of its own with both parties blaming each other for the subsequent escalations.

Coming in heavy can also create an environment where you wife can more easily alienate the children against you. Kids hate to see the parents fight and are confused when the family falls apart. They can be manipulated to blame and shun one parent.

Were the kids at home when the police came?

A 911 call, a DVPO, ousting from the marital home, serving divorce papers, and taking her away from her babies (and suing to do it long term), is going to amp this into the stratosphere.

Even if the judge tamps this down, her just knowing you were willing to do this could set this divorce on a lose-lose trajectory.

I understand that hitting her with all of this stuff could bring her to her knees and force her be compliant to just survive it - military victory. At the same time, family court is a crap shoot for a man and highly biased to the mom. As you have said, she has been a good mom, the implied suicide was probably just drama, and the domestic violence claim might not get any traction with the judge.

My suggestion is to factor in very carefully how your plan will affect the battle for the hearts and minds of the children. Be careful not to underestimate this.

I know I'm making this seem more complex. It is very complex. I'm trying to help.

Skip

[livednlearned]

To echo Skip, maybe we can brainstorm with you what it might look like to dial things down. Your nervous system is probably in BPD stratosphere itself. We can all get a bit BPD when a high-conflict divorce is in play. It's easy to catastrophize, and catastrophizing can be contagious.

My situation didn't quite play out the way some here suggest. When my ex realized there was a plan in place and some sunlight starting to shine on our family dynamics, he became very reasonable. He didn't become more dangerous, he became less so. Ostensibly for show -- he didn't want to appear crazy -- but he was still reasonable and we made headway that I never thought was possible.

At another point in our divorce, after my ex had a psychotic break with our then S11 in his house, our two lawyers talked me out of filing a PO because they actually cared about our family. They worked out an arrangement that was reasonable, much better than what would've happened if I filed a PO. I had to take a minute and make sure there were provisions in place to help S11 but we did it.

That kind of thing can happen with attorneys but I'm not sure it's their natural instinct when it's a high-conflict situation.

There is more thinking and negotiating and collaborating and problem-solving than you may think with (some) attorneys.

The same attorney who helped walked us back from the PO is also the same attorney who told me the longer I stayed, the more likely I would lose custody because if I knew what was going on, why didn't I protect my child? Meaning, she was capable of giving two kinds of counsel. It's much easier to say the scary thing than to think thoughtfully about how to help you stabilize your situation. You may have to push for that.

This isn't necessarily about staying or not staying, it's looking for ways to bring the temperature down.

People here often say hope for the best, plan for the worst, but I think it's better to plan for the best, and plan for the worst.

You know your wife best. You've talked to these experts about what to do. What would you do if the goal were to stabilize the family and keep everyone safe? Family law is by definition adversarial but it also welcomes problem solving. Maybe there is something possible that would feel less hair raising.

[ForeverDad]

I believe we have the best possible plan. We’ll ask for custody, figure out residence request tomorrow guardian at litem, custody eval and a mental exam and meaningful therapy.

Many courts seem to ignore mental health issues unless it can't be avoided.  You can guess what my court did... they studiously avoided all the signs expecting in time my ex would calm down and act like a normal person.  Didn't happen.

So while you do request meaningful therapy, don't get your hopes up.  Generally courts deal with people as they are and don't try to 'fix' the litigants.  At least a part of your legal and personal expectations should do similarly, deal with her as she is, not as you wish she'd improve.  Around here we call that 'hopium', nice to hope but be realistic and prepared to be disappointed.

I understand that she can’t be my problem.

I am overwhelmed at the possibility of single dadding 2 traumatized kids, getting myself thru this and running my business.

Despite her mental health issues, court will deal with her as an adult.  Just as you're an adult.  Court won't expect you to be her caretaker or caregiver.  There are resources she can choose to access or not.

The children are your #1 priority as well as your own health and life.  You'll have to let the professionals deal with her, they have the training and experience.

Remember the standard airline speech before each flight?  "In the event of an emergency, put on your own oxygen mask first, only then can you properly help others."  Your children need you, so you can't neglect yourself or your own priorities.  Sadly, your spouse can't be a priority.  Let the professionals take over her care.  Take care of yourself and your children who need you.

[AlleyOop23]

Up until now I have chosen not to disclose that I am a lawyer on this board in order to obtain unfiltered advice that doesn't defer to my background. I think that I have benefited from that choice. However to give you a sense of my perspective I am an attorney with over two decades of experience, though the super lawyer into completely unrelated categories of law and with a national and local reputation. I do not litigate now but I have in the past and I manage litigation for clients. I think litigation is a colossal waste of time effort and money. It is also a waste of energy and stress. When it comes to disputes I am no fun for my clients because I am the first to tell my clients to settle quickly and to overpay to end the dispute.

My background in managing lawyers allows me to say with certainty that my current lawyers who as serendipity would have it, have extensive backgrounds in domestic abuse in other contexts, I genuinely looking out for me and my children and are not simply upping the ante to generate fees and prolonged litigation.

If we obtain a PO it will be a multilayered betrayal for my ST BX. Several friend she confided him have offered declarations about her suicidal thoughts. Become apparent to been working with a lawyer and have rented my own place and concealing those facts from her. The PO will have the effect of limiting her access to her children which will crush her identity. The PO will be served on her by a law enforcement officer and if the PO requires her to move the officer will stand there and watch her pack. Even healthy person would never get over such humiliation. I absolutely believe it will cause serious long-term damage to all the relationships in my family and will absolutely create a high conflict family law situation.

I don't want to do it I would love to hear any ideas that would help me avoid it. She does not have a lawyer though I have begged her to get one. So I do not have an avenue to pursue full resolution. She's forcing out of the house with threats of physical assault and false allegations of domestic violence. She hid my belongings to extort my cooperation. She vowed to fight me and limit my ability to see my children and in forcing me out of the house I believe she absolutely knows that it is enhancing her ability to claim that I should have limited parenting time. She has said she will be unreasonable in a divorce and will fight me for the children in order to protect them from me and what she characterizes as my abusive neglect. So what choice to have? She refuses to get more help then she's getting to deal with her suicidal ideation. She just told me that she spent time clutching a bottle of pills and contemplating taking them all while looking at pictures of our children in a desperate attempt to stop herself from doing it.

If I move back into the house she will provoke me or fight me have the please take me away my children will see me led away in handcuffs I will have a no contact order entered against me and I will of course have to endure the stress of waiting for the attack in conflict while attempting to limit my children's exposure. If I stay away on the terms that she's demanded I will in effect be abandoning my children I will lose my ability to see them and more importantly I will lose my ability to influence their lives. I begged her to take back the threats. I offered numerous other solutions with me staying in the house until the end of February in which I would avoid her and spend minimal time in the house. She refused and insisted that I believe, moving out with three hours notice. So what choice do I have?

Please please please if anyone has any ideas as to how to de-escalate this and come up with a solution I would love to hear them immediately because my eyes are wide open about both the effects of doing this and the implications of not doing this.

[AlleyOop23]

Up until now I have chosen not to disclose that I am a lawyer on this board in order to obtain unfiltered advice that doesn't defer to my background. I think that I have benefited from that choice. However to give you a sense of my perspective I am an attorney with over two decades of experience, voted a super lawyer in 2 completely unrelated categories of law and with a national and local reputation. I do not litigate now but I have in the past and I manage litigation for clients. I think litigation is a colossal waste of time effort and money. It is also a waste of energy and stress. When it comes to disputes I am no fun for my clients because I am the first to tell my clients to settle quickly and to overpay to end the dispute.

My background in managing lawyers allows me to say with certainty that my current lawyers who as serendipity would have it, have extensive backgrounds in domestic abuse in other contexts, I genuinely looking out for me and my children and are not simply upping the ante to generate fees and prolonged litigation.

If we obtain a PO it will be a multilayered betrayal for my ST BX. Several friend she confided him have offered declarations about her suicidal thoughts. Become apparent to been working with a lawyer and have rented my own place and concealing those facts from her. The PO will have the effect of limiting her access to her children which will crush her identity. The PO will be served on her by a law enforcement officer and if the PO requires her to move the officer will stand there and watch her pack. Even healthy person would never get over such humiliation. I absolutely believe it will cause serious long-term damage to all the relationships in my family and will absolutely create a high conflict family law situation.

I don't want to do it I would love to hear any ideas that would help me avoid it. She does not have a lawyer though I have begged her to get one. So I do not have an avenue to pursue full resolution. She's forcing out of the house with threats of physical assault and false allegations of domestic violence. She hid my belongings to extort my cooperation. She vowed to fight me and limit my ability to see my children and in forcing me out of the house I believe she absolutely knows that it is enhancing her ability to claim that I should have limited parenting time. She has said she will be unreasonable in a divorce and will fight me for the children in order to protect them from me and what she characterizes as my abusive neglect. So what choice to have? She refuses to get more help then she's getting to deal with her suicidal ideation. She just told me that she spent time clutching a bottle of pills and contemplating taking them all while looking at pictures of our children in a desperate attempt to stop herself from doing it.

If I move back into the house she will provoke me or fight me have the please take me away my children will see me led away in handcuffs I will have a no contact order entered against me and I will of course have to endure the stress of waiting for the attack in conflict while attempting to limit my children's exposure. If I stay away on the terms that she's demanded I will in effect be abandoning my children I will lose my ability to see them and more importantly I will lose my ability to influence their lives. I begged her to take back the threats. I offered numerous other solutions with me staying in the house until the end of February in which I would avoid her and spend minimal time in the house. She refused and insisted that I believe, moving out with three hours notice. So what choice do I have?

Please please please if anyone has any ideas as to how to de-escalate this and come up with a solution I would love to hear them immediately because my eyes are wide open about both the effects of doing this and the implications of not doing this.

[Skip]

We can all see in your words the the discomfort you are feeling right now. We get that. This is a very difficult time. You are facing very difficult decisions.

... maybe we can brainstorm with you what it might look like to dial things down. Your nervous system is probably in BPD stratosphere itself. We can all get a bit BPD when a high-conflict divorce is in play. It's easy to catastrophize, and catastrophizing can be contagious.

How about livednlearned's suggestion? Given the potentially profound implications of the options you are considering, it might be helpful to explore the situation a bit more, here. That is what BPDFamily is for. Maybe we can help you with additional perspective to the perspectives that you are currently considering.

[EyesUp]

@AlleyOop,

I understand that you feel like you're in a tough spot with no good choices.  That's the nature of this situation.  However sometimes there is some comfort (not the ideal word, but bear with me) in choosing the best option, even if all the options feel like some version of failure or risk or general disappointment.

Qs:
Does your wife have a history of making threats, or is the behavior you've shared in recent days a new escalation?
Does your wife have a history of following through on threats?  Or are the threats a cry for help?

How you answer these questions might change how you feel about taking on the risk of moving back in.  Because if you can live with false threats, you may be able to navigate certain aspects of the separation in a way that benefits you, your kids, and your wife.

I appreciate your comments about litigation and avoiding litigation.  In fact, I basically followed the advice you give your clients to settle my D.  Sample size of one, but this is what I was able to do (forgive me if I've already shared this)...

Like your wife, my uBPDxw threatened/accused me of everything and anything she could think of.  Life under the same roof had become increasingly untenable and if nothing else was not a good model for the kids - it simply wasn't possible to keep everything from them. This was part of what finally gave me the conviction to file... I got to the point where I took her at her word. It sounds like that's about where you are now.

Unlike you, I didn't have the resources to move out, so I didn't even consider that option.  Also, my diligence process had unfolded over the better part of a year and I was repeatedly advised by attorneys and men's advocates (there are a few...) not to move out if I wanted a chance at a 50-50 agreement.

I finally filed. 100% paperwork complete, financial disclosures, everything. No fault, seeking 50-50 parenting time. Sent in via snail mail during the pandemic. I did not tell my wife that I filed because I did not know how she would react, so I decided to wait until the complaint was received and I knew when she would be served.

In the meantime, my wife perceived a change.  At this point, she filed.  She didn't prepare with any diligence and her atty simply sent in an electronic complaint, At fault, seeking primary parent status and majority parenting time. While my complaint sat in a stack of mail - for weeks - my wife's electronic filing was received immediately.

To this day, my uBPDxw has no idea that I filed first, or that I filed at all.  And this proved to be a huge benefit, as it eliminated most of the rejection narrative that PDs often get stuck in - which I feared - and it sounds like this is a big concern for you as well.

I didn't plan any of this, it was just dumb luck - but given that you are an atty and think in terms of strategy, perhaps you can put this to use in some way.

Like my situation, your wife already perceives that the end is approaching.  Can you take the risk to endure some volatility and potential false threats?  If she is motivated to take action, you may be able to both give her agency, and shift at least some responsibility to her.  Again, this was a benefit in my case, because it eliminated my uBPDxw's ability to say things to the kids like: "dad is leaving us" or "dad is trying to take you away from me" - because the D is her choice.

You're prob well aware that the "who files first" thing only conveys benefit if you go to trial, and even then only determine who gets to speak first / speak last.  It's not really a huge advantage, IMO.

It sounds like your wife would likely file like my wife - seeking primary parent status and majority parenting time.  But that will require that she's able to litigate to get there.

In my case, a bit like you, there was a 911 call (two actually).  There was also a section 12 (mental/psych eval), and some things that my uBPDxw would not want to make public (multiple affairs).  So she had some incentive to settle.  Her mother was funding her atty and didn't want to go deep into protracted litigation.  Another lucky break - the rest of her family knows that she's high conflict and didn't want to fund the conflict.  Another lucky break - They also didn't buy into her narrative that I'm an abusive villain...

I'm glad to share more about what happened after my wife filed and I was served, but the short version is:  We cohabitated until stipulations were signed and she moved out.  The stips included agreement re: a "temporary" 50-50 parenting schedule.  And I bet you and your counsel would agree:  the court loves status quo.

As I advised you way back when - my journal showing all those dropoffs and pickups, etc., etc., showed that I was an involved parent. Even if my uBPDxw was, in fact, the primary caregiver in the home - we did not have a binary scenario where she did everything and I did nothing.  Since there was a division of responsiblity, a reasonable court will assume that with reasonable adjustments that both parents will be able to continue to function in a divided household...  that's divorce!

OK, I've written another long post.  I need to work on concise memo format and provide a simple brief...  but I hope this gives you some food for thought re: de-escalation and also strategy to get through this.  I know I had a bunch of lucky breaks - but I'm not an atty.  Given your resources, perhaps you can actually put some of this to use in an actual plan.

If you can slow down this train, please be prepared by recording everything - it really doesn't matter what the law is in your state.  The point is not to create legally admissible evidence, but to undermine false accusations when the LEO rolls up...  I think you've already been advised here, you don't need 2-party consent if your statement is: "I was recording myself, as you can see, I was not shouting or threatening or doing anything abusive during at that time or at any time.  I've had so many false accusations, I've been recording myself to understand what's real and not real." This might help reduce the risk you perceive in regard to her threats, which may or may not be real.  Yes, you need to treat threats like they are real.  Yes, the threats are a form of abuse.  And, yes, you need to figure out how to deal with it.  If your solution is to leave the kids with mom, you're telling the court:  You are 100% ok leaving the kids with mom.

How about the other approach:  You need a PO - So you need to take the kids with you?   If that's not viable for whatever reason, you need to carefully consider if leaving the house is really the right move...

[Skip]

This all happened at the same time I was diagnosed with GAD and ADHD. Once on medication I realized another part of my drive was trying to outrun my fear.

In stressful times like this, we all resort to our basic instincts. You to yours. Your wife to hers. I thought what you wrote (above) was incredible self-awareness. This ability to recenter yourself will be invaluable as you navigate the stages of this life transition. Divorce is emotional Olympics.

I don't know your local court, but my sense of family court is that it is formula. Couples sometimes think the are battling for miles... but in reality they are battling for inches. As you said earlier, you are most likely going to get 60/40%. If the two of you can get along (which may be hard as you didn't do well in the relationship) you could get 50%/50%. Unless, one of you can convince the court that the other is Charles Manson.

But.

You said she is a good mom. People know you are a good dad. The Charles Manson, winner takes all defense/offense is going to be a tough sell. Agree? Maybe? Disagree?

1. Question (not rhetorical) "does a brawl favor her"?  Does calm and respect favor you? What are your thoughts?

2. Second question (not rhetorical), can you handle 100% and is it good for the children? If you had 100% would you need a nanny? Will a judge prefer to see the kids with the nanny or their real mom when you are at work?

3. Third question (not rhetorical), can you handle 50%/50%? Can you two handle 50%/50% as a couple (not be at each others throats with each exchange, or trying to dictate how the other parents?).

4. Last question. Is the Disney dad schedule something you could make work if you have to? Give the kids 100% of your time on your weekends and make awesome memories and then have a block of time in the summer to go on an super adventure?

5. The girls are coming of age in a few years and will ber able to say where they want to stay. After being Disney dad, and after things get tough with mom (as teenagers often do), will they want to stay with you more? Thoughts?

[kells76]

Hey... thanks for the update. We've all walked this before -- we get the stress levels, which can be stratospheric. I know what that heart rate feels like. As you read through Skip's and EyesUp's thoughts, I hope you can notice your breathing and give yourself a little time to calm it down. We'll be here with you through this -- you are not alone. 

We make better decisions when we're coming from a place of being grounded, balanced, and centered. Sometimes, when BPD is involved, we can feel a huge time pressure: "I have to solve this now, I don't have time to think". Often, though, we have more time than it feels like.

I'm with Skip and EyesUp and Livednlearned -- I wonder if you can carve out a little time today to feel grounded, to get back to center, and to find a balanced mindset. Maybe this train won't stop, but we can slow it down and dial down the feelings and intensity so that you have a great place from which to make decisions.

So -- are you at work today? I wonder if there's some time there (lunch break) where you can recall the tools and approaches you've probably worked on with your T, and bring those to bear on your situation? What kinds of things has your T recommended for accepting how you feel and managing those feelings?

I'm preaching to the choir; I hope you don't think I've got it all together (have been working with anxiety for the last couple weeks). If I suggest noticing your breathing, I'd better do that too.

Keep us posted. Check out Skip's questions -- take the long view. Ask me anything; my H has two girls, too, and we're making it through. There are ways to work with your W's priorities/desires/"currency" in mediation that can absolutely deescalate things and move towards a solution where she feels like she "won" but you aren't screwed.

It's great that you have the insight that you want to deescalate. Really good mindset 

 

[ForeverDad]

You said she is a good mom.

On the one hand, I do sense that court is willing to view a person as two personas, or two hats.  In my case, my spouse was arrested for Threat of DV (adult behavior) yet over in domestic court she was assigned the typical mother default of temp full custody and majority time (parenting behavior).

So I was protected for a few months with possession of the home yet only had alternate weekends and a three hour evening in between.  And this continued for over two years until the settlement became official in the final decree.  It didn't make any common sense to me but clearly it made legal sense to the courts.

On the other hand, one goal you may try to reach in court is that her mental health issues impact more than just you, the person seeking a PO (protection order).  My question, How on earth can you say without qualification that she's a "good mother"?  Do the children feel comfortable and safe with both parents, or just one?  Do not her mental health issues at least sometimes negatively impact the kids?  We're not just talking about feeding, clothing and playing.  Parenting is far more than that.

My then-separated spouse tried to file an ex parte TPO and attempted to include our preschooler.  Two weeks later with both parents in court our CPS investigator stood up and stated "CPS has 'no concerns' about ForeverDad."  So our child was removed from her petition.  CPS had no comments about her because my own TPO was in a criminal court which didn't involve itself with children.  That was a failure (or weakness) of the legal system right there, CPS only scrutinized the accused parent, not both.

2. Second question (not rhetorical), can you handle 100% and is it good for the children? If you had 100% would you need a nanny? Will a judge prefer to see the kids with the nanny or their real mom when you are at work?

I was able to use daycare for both before school and after school.

Please please please if anyone has any ideas as to how to de-escalate this and come up with a solution I would love to hear them immediately because my eyes are wide open about both the effects of doing this and the implications of not doing this.

There is likely no way to fully de-escalate the separation and divorce.  Your goal will likely be to accomplish unwinding the marriage with as few triggers and overreactions as possible.  You can expect her to react and overreact.  You can't anticipate every trap and metaphorical land mine.  You just do the best you can, build in as many safeguards in the custody and parenting order.  Something somewhere in the early versions of the court order will fail, that is a given.  But out of the smoke of the chaos and struggle, the order can be adjusted so that vulnerability will be addressed.  Until the next incident.

A refrain I sing - not that I can actually sing - is that you need to get the best (or "least bad") temp order from the start since you may be stuck with it "as is" until the divorce is complete.  That was my experience.  That supposedly temporary order persisted over two years.

As for a "solution"... there is no "one size fits all".  Review how our cases and strategies started, struggled through the years and eventually ended (mostly).

[AlleyOop23]

Skimming answers - I would struggle with 100%. I can make 50/50 work. I think part of that is what makes it work for the kids. Stbx is a micromanager and they need a break.


Predictably stbx went to damsel in distress “I need you” and I’ve said I’m not comfortable staying and a bunch of other things yet here I am sitting in the house. I miss my kids. I’m lonely for them. I don’t want to be married or even keep living here. I can’t have integrity to myself and stay. I’m sitting here and I need to find the strength to tell the kids I’m not staying here tonight and to be alone and I am just staring at the wall and I only got 3 hours sleep and I know that should leave but I’m just sitting here shaming myself for not announcing I e hired a lawyer and rented a place and I’m not coming back for more abuse. I’m not coming back into the marriage. I’ve not given that impression I’ve said I won’t. But she wants me here and I’m using that for my own comfort so  I can be here and I feel like I am letting down my entire support network just by sittting here

[kells76]

You're doing the best you can in the situation you're in. There's no judgment here. I've also been in situations with the kids where there are no great options but I have to choose something. I think you are a compassionate guy; I know you have compassion for others here. Can you have that same compassion for yourself?

Being at home tonight doesn't have to be a "failure". It's one night -- not a referendum on your whole life and strategy.

I think there's a part of you, maybe subconscious, that recognizes this is the "least bad" option. It may be helping you and your W avoid an escalation, which would be bad for the kids. I hope you can honor that part of yourself that is doing the best he can.

Are you able to use any stress/anxiety reduction tools or skills tonight? Talk us through them. What works for you -- breath focus? Left brain stuff? Other?

Let's get through tonight -- no big decisions. See if you get some rest -- tomorrow may be a better time for decision making.

Ok?

 

[AlleyOop23]

I.ended up eating with the family. Stbx is in a relaxed cycle she fell asleep. I watched a movie, the kids laid on me and we goofed around. They both had some frustrations we processed.i beat myself up feeling weak for going over there but i went to see the kids and not out of some hope or false belief that my marriage was somehow salvageable. It wa really fun and really reaffirming as far as my relationships with my kids. After an emotional storm and not seeing them I felt so distant and out of their rhythms which was about me not them. I piggybacked up to bed and waited until they fell asleep and took off.

Also I find that going over there for a few hours doesn’t  make me feel like I can’t take action because I am being intellectually or emotionally dishonest. Like - I was a nice guy so I can’t leave now as if I some how led my stbx on.  It doesn’t change all the the things she’s done and said to me. It doesn’t create repair and I’m not falsely signaling that’s okay. It doesn’t change not saying good morning or I love you for two years.


I made a recording of her berating me and I asked my attorney who has a long background in DV work to listen to it. He said she’s clearly got something going on, and hat he’s listened to a lot and it was orettty bad. And I’m clearly numb to it because most people wouldn’t stay and listen to that for 45 minutes. I said maybe six sentences on it. She calls me some form of worthless repeatedly.  It was the first time anyone’s ever heard that - her at that we are alone in the house level.

That was one awful week. Next week is probably worse.

[Skip]

Hang in there Alley'

A cautionary word...

... you sound motivated, but you do not sound prepared at this point. Please don't be offended by this. I say it to help you and your family. And I say this as someone who has watched "this story" (your story) play out many times in other families.

Let's back up to this again: you sound motivated, but you do not sound prepared.

Maybe the reason you are feel so conflicted is because your plan still needs work. Think about it. If your DVPO succeeded in throwing your wife out of the house and prevented her from seeing her kids even for 14 days there would be pandemonium... the girls would be screaming for their mother and mom would be going to be out of her mind... and you would be racked with guilt. What happens next? Be a chess player. What are the possible moves by the parties (e.g., you, wife, kids, judge, your support team)? We've seen this play out here many times.

Don't feel bad for feeling conflicted right now. It's not the best feeling but its a better place than "screaming babies".    

And now you have time to re-set and re-look your plan.

I would really encourage you to engage the last nine posts above.  

And two general thoughts. The best time to talk to a person with BPD traits is when they are in a relaxed cycle. The more she feels in control (see Eyesup) generally the better.

[AlleyOop23]

After being an abuse victim for so
Long my challenge is to sort out my motivation. Am I doing things from a codependency perspective avoiding conflict? Am I not moving forward because I don’t have her permission? Or am I seeing pretty clearly and filtering advice well like I know I can and applying it to my specific box of chaos but it’s all so understandably emotional that it’s hard to sort?

There’s no answer to any of that except
From me. I can say that after a great night with my kids and a nights sleep I didn’t find myself craving my old familiar life. I wanted instead to get on with my own.

[ForeverDad]

Of course your emotions are surging, it's your family that has you tied up in knots.  It's one thing advising other families on how to address their issues and dilemmas, quite another thing when it's your dysfunctional family at stake.

Though of course it will be hard, imagine that you are advising some else, a client perhaps or a friend or a cousin, how to proceed

In other words, as much as possible, shift from a subjective perspective to an objective one.  Rather than feeling trapped inside a dark box, step outside and picture yourself seeing all the problems as though you're an observer and can tell the person stuck inside how to get through the upcoming trials and tribulations.

So, that said, can you see how seemingly impossible hurdles now can become manageable?  Yes, very horrendous and devastating but manageable.

As an example, you're feeling as though 100% parenting is impossible.  What would you say to encourage that hapless person inside that dark box?

Perhaps you could tell that person to imagine their spouse having to leave for a while for some serious therapy, maybe even hospitalization, to treat something like cancer.  Things like cancer can't be ignored or hidden but need to be properly dealt with.  Could that person take over for a while, doing virtually everything?  Sure.  What if that treatment takes longer, maybe six months?  Could that person take over for a while longer?  Sure.  What if that treatment takes longer, maybe a couple years?  Could that person take over for even that long?  Sure.

In that example, don't you see that the worried parent really can handle even up to 100% care, however long it takes?  Don't look at the mountain before you like Mount Everest, take it bit by bit like a series of short, manageable hikes.

Those are a few illustrations.  Sure, it's not easy - some will tell you that nothing worthwhile is easy - but you can do whatever you need to do.
 

[ForeverDad]

One more thought... maybe you don't have to do 100%.  Maybe mother can handle some level of parenting involvement.  But it's clear she can't be in charge or else nothing will improve.

Does your state allow the reasonably normal parent to have Decision Making or Tie Breaker status if full custody and majority time aren't possible at first?

My court was clearly pro-mother, I had a TPO when she was charged with Threat of DV, yet she went to family court and got a temp order for custody and majority time.  What an upside down world, I had the home while she had our preschooler.

But gradually the order got better.  Exiting the lengthy divorce I moved up to joint custody and equal time.  A few years later I gained full custody.  Another couple years I gained majority time too.  At last after so many years the order was manageable and we didn't go back to court.

Apparently judges prefer to tweak orders and not make drastic fixes?  Which is why it's best to get the "least bad" order from the start, otherwise the struggle to parent is harder and longer.

[AlleyOop23]

I appreciate the tweak order thought. I have been concerned and assumed the temp order will be pro mom and craved in stone.

Right now our draft order has a mediator tie breaker. Illl ask about that given the instability.

I never heard Disney dad before. That’s perfect as a phrase.

My lawyers say things ‘are changing’ in our blue area re dads and parenting. Depends on the judge. I guess I’ll find out the hard way because it won’t be settled initially.

[AlleyOop23]

I am dealing with some major fear obligation and guilt. I should be indignant. My wife has for three years been nothing but blaming shaming and critical. Last week she forced me from my house and from my kids with threats of violence and false accusations to the police. I've told her I don't sleep at the house anymore for this reason.

And yet, I was over that the house last night and my wife pulled me aside and tearfully asked me if part of the reason I wanted divorce was because she had gotten old. She proceeded to tell me that perimenopause had aged her face, she gained weight, and her hair was falling out (she has alopecia and has four years with her hair falling out in small clumps from time to time). Truthfully she has gained a little weight and whether it is sleep or aging or perimenopause, her face does look a little different. She goes on to cry about how nothing is working out and how she feels terrible about herself in her life. Little bit later on she my oldest daughter are carrying on and laughing and laughing and having a great time together.

So as I contemplate starting this divorce by filing for a surprise protective order and having her served by law enforcement I worry about the effect. It will have on her, on our kids, on the divorce process itself, and on any potential positive relationship will have when the divorce is over.

I am not waffling on divorcing her but I can't seem to get started and I can't seem to bring myself to tell my kids (because now she won't tell them with me). I keep thinking through how horrible the protective order and service by law enforcement officer will be for her and for my kids.

[AlleyOop23]

And I know if I sat down to talk to her about a reasonable parenting plan she’d be right back as I he angry blaming rageful person.

[kells76]

Hey AlleyOop, good to see you back here. Hope you have something relaxing to look forward to today.

I want to check if I'm tracking with your concern:

Is your concern that the only way to initiate your divorce at this time is through the surprise PO?

Let me know if I'm off base. Just asking to make sure we're on the same page (or if I'm not, so I can get there).

[AlleyOop23]

At this point the other options are to move out and file at which point the court makes me Disney dad. Or move back in and start knowing that now she’s capable of this. She’ll cycle back to that while I’m living there.

I am tempted to try to lay it out to her and ask her to cooperate. Let’s plan this while I live there.

But at that point if things get bad and I decide to try for a PO it risks looking like I’m using it as a tool, that I’m not really concerned about it as it happened before and I didn’t do anything


Separaately I wrote and didn’t yet post this additional piece which I hadn’t yet posted when you replied. Not responding to what you wrote

I think part of it was that for a space the woman I fell in love with was back flattering me with her vulnerabilities and sharing a laugh and I used to lean into the appearances thinking here, this is my marriage. It’s back. Now I know it’s just part of a horrible worsening cycle and I can’t  lean back into it and escape the bad stuff and Just delude myself it will get better and that I have some control over that. And I’m for a moment feeling that I’m going through this too. I’m on my way to pick up my kid from a sleepover and had to pull over to  cry.

[ForeverDad]

So as I contemplate starting this divorce by filing for a surprise protective order and having her served by law enforcement I worry about the effect. It will have on her, on our kids, on the divorce process itself, and on any potential positive relationship will have when the divorce is over.

Frankly, no matter how finely you try to tune a least bad scenario, it still will be a cluster doom.  There's no easy way, just try your best to avoid obvious missteps and common traps, and proceed.  (Such advice is detailed in William Eddy's SPLITTING handbook.)

But at that point if things get bad and I decide to try for a PO it risks looking like I’m using it as a tool, that I’m not really concerned about it as it happened before and I didn’t do anything.

Be prepared for that question, "Why didn't you do anything before?"

Admit that you didn't know how to respond at that time.*  Sometimes a simple answer is best.  (You're not a mental health expert, hey, admit you're not even an expert in family law.  Apparently you're an expert in other fields of legal fields but the point is that you're untrained, even somewhat clueless, in family law and how to assess/resolve family dysfunction.)

I repeat, it's okay to admit you were in over your depth dealing with such extreme levels of chaos, acting out and dysfunctional actions, reactions and overreactions.  But now you're doing catch-up and doing your best to set things straight.

* The professionals should not expect you to be as trained as they are, with degrees and specialties and whatnot.  I so much wanted to explain to my professionals that I eventually suspected a hurtful personality disorder had developed yet no one listened to me.  (1) I was not seen as an expert and therefore they ignored what I had to contribute.  After all, I had only lived with her for 10-15 years so what could I know?  (2) They weren't there to fix her, they just had to get us through the divorce so that marriage was unwound and basic order issued.

[livednlearned]

I think it’s really important to break down why you think she showed this tender/vulnerable side. Try to depersonalize. What happened that might be different? Brainstorm, there is a thread here worth pulling.

What is the tenor in the home like right now? What are you like? What is she like?

[AlleyOop23]

She is calmer. She is desperately trying to not be abandoned. I  staying to the edges and not sleeping there.

She doesn’t really want to divorce. She wants me to be different and she wants to feel different.


She texts me all day about the constant pain she’s in.i know that I could fulfill the pattern by leaning in and being tender. That’s always been the contract.

I’m Feeling oppressive FOG. mostly OG. I’m also so angry. We
Got all the way up to let’s discuss how and when to tell the kids (_after she kicked me out). Now I feel terrible for unleashing a protective order on her. But how’s that even possible? Prepping the motion with my lawyers I’m Detailing physical abuse and awful shaming things she’s written to me - how can I feel bad for her? What the hell is wrong with me? A healthy person would both have this much to write they would have out a stop to to it way or the other.


I’m taking care of everyone else in my head and worrying about her and on and on.

I’m hopeful we can tweak the relief being sought so she can see the kids.

I know she will think that I’ve been orchestrating this and by being the house with the kids it’s completely disingenuous. But when I read the texts and descriptions of what happened I think I’m doing what a responsible
Person would do.

[AlleyOop23]

My wife is preparing my younger daughter for her trip to NY in 3 weeks for model UN. She is so excited and they are picking out clothes so she looks “professional.” She showed me how she looked in the jacket and worked through a little anxiety with me about maybe being overdressed.  Same kid has a new type of dance class Thursday night. She’s been looking for a dance class that she can fit into her schedule that is different from ballet. The class is only 3 kids, it just came up. That would give her a second dance at the recital this spring, and one with only two others onstage. When I picked her up from dance last week she was vibrating with excitement having learned about it.
 
My older daughter has someone’s else’s bat mitzvah this weekend. She can’t wait to get dressed up and feel ‘put together.’  She’s growing up so fast.
 
I keep looking at the schedule. I am thinking to myself when can I tell the kids what’s going on?  When (rhetorically), if ever, is there a “best” time to tell the kids the police have forcibly removed their mother? And to have her separate?
 
When I think it through, the choices are obviously don’t get divorced which we can set aside completely I am writing it only so it needn’t be pointed out.
 
The other choice is to discard the PO and move back in while telling her I am filing for divorce.  When she learns that I have rented a place that does not have the characteristics I was charged with adhering to, that I’ve been working with attorneys and not telling her, that I want 50/50, I can only assume she will go right back to angry, as she was JUST A FEW DAYS AGO. But right now, I know from my exposure to the cycle that I’m safe for the time being.
 
I am struggling, Internally, I am bargaining. I want to tell her all this and try to start a normal divorce and if she wont’ do it then I believe I’ll have balmed my conscience. And I don’t really believe she’ll agree. She’s told me over and over she’ll fight me on custody. And I believe that when she gets a lawyer I am going to get strafed with whatever they can cook up because regardless of how I do this she will be angry.
 
It will only be days before I am once again muttering to myself “I HAVE to get out of this marriage.”  I realize I cannot convince her of my perspective and that it is hopeless to even consider.  She will consider me the villain there will be a mess.
 
The idea that she will not be there to say goodbye to her kids, that she is just ushered out that’s that, is something I am really struggling to come to terms with. The fact that she doesn’t have an obvious place to land with a supportive person, that’s troubling me. Supporters telling me how angry I should be, how this is necessary for my kids and their future and my mental health isn’t working to help me, I just feel guilty and awful.

[kells76]

This is the hardest stuff.

I hear you wanting to do right by your girls.

Am I tracking with you that while the paperwork for the PO is "filled out and ready", it has not yet been "submitted"?

...

A few thoughts:

I keep looking at the schedule. I am thinking to myself when can I tell the kids what’s going on?  When (rhetorically), if ever, is there a “best” time to tell the kids the police have forcibly removed their mother? And to have her separate?

How much do you think the kids already know/suspect? They have probably heard the fighting?

When I think it through, the choices are obviously don’t get divorced which we can set aside completely I am writing it only so it needn’t be pointed out.
 
The other choice is to discard the PO and move back in while telling her I am filing for divorce.  When she learns that I have rented a place that does not have the characteristics I was charged with adhering to, that I’ve been working with attorneys and not telling her, that I want 50/50, I can only assume she will go right back to angry, as she was JUST A FEW DAYS AGO. But right now, I know from my exposure to the cycle that I’m safe for the time being.

So you're thinking there are 3 choices right now, correct?

-Proceed with the PO
-Don't get divorced
-Don't proceed with PO, move back in, but do proceed with divorce, and she will be angry

Are you up for working with the group here to find a different path forward? There may be ways to mitigate the fallout on your kids without feeling like extremes are the only options.

It would take grounding and stability on your part -- not saying it will feel easy -- but I think you believe your kids are worth it.

It's connected to what Livednlearned asked the other day:

I think it’s really important to break down why you think she showed this tender/vulnerable side. Try to depersonalize. What happened that might be different? Brainstorm, there is a thread here worth pulling.

What is the tenor in the home like right now? What are you like? What is she like?

How can we leverage knowledge of her BPD needs and cycles to help her feel like you are an ally trying to get her what she wants?

...

I think you are wise to look out at your life and your kids' lives and to recognize that while there's never a "perfect" time to divorce, there may be worse times to escalate. It could be that you sense that tapping the brakes for a moment is what this situation needs, and because your W can't/won't tap the brakes, it's up to you to take the lead and slow things down for the moment, not forever. This doesn't mean "don't ever divorce" -- it's more like what Skip mentioned:

Let's back up to this again: you sound motivated, but you do not sound prepared.

Maybe the reason you are feel so conflicted is because your plan still needs work. Think about it. If your DVPO succeeded in throwing your wife out of the house and prevented her from seeing her kids even for 14 days there would be pandemonium... the girls would be screaming for their mother and mom would be going to be out of her mind... and you would be racked with guilt. What happens next? Be a chess player. What are the possible moves by the parties (e.g., you, wife, kids, judge, your support team)? We've seen this play out here many times.

Don't feel bad for feeling conflicted right now. It's not the best feeling but its a better place than "screaming babies".   

And now you have time to re-set and re-look your plan.

I would really encourage you to engage the last nine posts above. 

And two general thoughts. The best time to talk to a person with BPD traits is when they are in a relaxed cycle. The more she feels in control (see Eyesup) generally the better.

I'll pause there for now so it isn't too long.

Really glad to see you coming back here for support.

[zachira]

Of course you feel guilty and awful because for years your wife has dumped her overwhelming feelings onto you and made everything your fault. The challenge is to separate your feelings from hers, allow her to take responsibility for how she feels inside while owning what you feel deep down inside. As you become healthier and more of a separate person from your wife, you will start to feel better little by little. The best piece of advice my therapist ever gave me was when in the presence of a disordered person to focus on how I was feeling inside instead of observing and taking on the feelings of the disordered person. You are absolutely right that your wife is unlikely to change or take any responsibility for her behaviors. This does not make you responsible for her choices and disordered behaviors even though it is extremely painful to watch her self destructive behaviors, especially because she is the mother of your children and you once loved her enough to marry her. Keep expressing your concerns and talking actions like you are doing now, and with time, lots of time, you will feel better and be in a better place.