Divorce Strategy Advice, Experts, Lawyers, Custody

[AlleyOop23]

I have another thread on my experience and gaining insight but I wanted to start a new one as it feels like a new topic.

I am actively planning my divorce from my wife who exhibits BPD traits. I have two daughters, 11 and 13. We’ve been married over 25 years. She’s been stay at home for 5. I am the sole earner. The abuse, including two bouts of physical abuse is detailed in my other thread.

I am working with a lawyer, getting them financial information, writing a long narrative, getting ready. It’s awful at home. On this board I got some great advice I’ve used- I picture my life 5, 6 months, a year from now, freed from walking on eggshells on my own home.

A friend of mine turned me onto a lawyer turned BPD divorce expert for a consult. His story of his own horrific divorce from a BPD is on his site.  I appreciate his willingness to share his time with my me.

It was the darkest conversation I’ve ever had, bar none. Over 90 minutes he told me

-you are naive to think 50/50 is a good idea. You need to go all out scorched earth. He points out that my wife has already threatened the kids will live with her full time if we divorce

-you are naive to think your kids are not scarred by emotional abuse (I think she’s good with the kids, getting harder with the 13 yo but she’s a good mom imo)

-your wife WILL
     - fabricate allegations of abuse
     - assasinate your character
    - spend everything you have to hurt you
     - turn your kids against you / parental alienation

He tells me BPDs are so predictable he guaranties this outcome. Part of his plan is ghost writing emails designed to push her BPD buttons so she shows herself to the court.

He says if I don’t go all in I will lose everything since I’m a working dad and she’s a stay at home mom in a “best interests of the children” state.

This is not.a custody case it is a child protection case he says.

Finally he tells “you’re not going to like this but”!he tells me based on my naïveté and affect that I don’t have what it takes and that I should “stoop to conquer” and not even start a divorce. Just stay and figure out how to take it.

Then I ran all this by a family lawyer friend who said to be honest he’s probably right and I think you’ll stay at least three more years.

Fwiw my current attorney purports to be versed innHCP. He’s convinced me I can’t hold back the abuse facts. The plan is to fight for 50//50. All the bad stuff goes in and we’re seeking temporary orders when we file.

So all that to ask this: what input do you have? In a way the encounter is a gift. I’ve been lurching around seeking advice and direction and all kinds of perspectives but ultimately I gotta make the calls and steer the ship.

But it’s a curse in several ways. Am I naive? Are my kids in worse shape than I think? Am I? He grilled me on ptsd and yeah I’ve got symptoms. I sleep I. The guest room and I lock the door. Do I have a strategy that will fail me and my kids?

And at least right now he’s taken away the light at the end of the tunnel. I am now picturing longer darker riskier and a lifetime of continued abuse and I look at my wife and think I can t believe she’s going to be even worse to me. I was picturing living apart, without eggshells. The times I have my kids alone are glorious. Now it’s just depressing and awful and feels lose lose. I should say not all the time but these thoughts inhabit more space than they did.

And my divorce coach, herself an HCP abuse survivor, thinks I’m in much better shape than the “expert.”  Amd of course he is selling something- the solution is turning it all over to him at a very high hourly rate.

So I could use insight on planning for the worst. On choosing an expert and making sure my lawyer is up to it. Amd on strategy and following my instincts.

I don’t want to mess up my kids. But for them I’d have packed my bags 3 years ago.

TIA

[kells76]

Hey, good to hear from you again. Smart move to lay stuff out here and think through your options.

Just for starters, am I tracking with you that you've talked with 3 lawyers:

This one:

I am working with a lawyer, getting them financial information, writing a long narrative, getting ready.

this one:

A friend of mine turned me onto a lawyer turned BPD divorce expert for a consult.

and this one:

Then I ran all this by a family lawyer friend

?

So you have your current L, and have also consulted with "worst case scenario" L and "family friend" L?

Let's start there and make sure I'm reading correctly!

[Cat Familiar]

I attempted to do a collaborative divorce—talk about naive! Then my ex hired the most pitbull-y local attorney in the area and decided to take me to the cleaners. He made up his own *facts* about state law, insisting that he had claim to property that was legally mine. I had to do deep dives to prove title and ownership, taking significant time and exhausting me mentally and emotionally.

He got far worse than his typical abuse, which was bad to begin with. He ran up huge sums on our credit card that I ended up having to pay, he claimed disability meanwhile marching in a parade and moving boulders in a garden, he asked for spousal support, though we both jointly owned a business together.

He went scorched earth on me, but in the end I had to pay him what seemed like a lot of money at the time to go away. In retrospect, I got out cheap. My property value soared and what I spent to get him out of my life was well worth it.

You have children, which certainly complicates things. I really have no advice to give other than to keep your eyes open and protect your assets.

[AlleyOop23]

@kells76 yes you have that right. There’s my lawyer representing me to whom I’m getting info. There’s my friend who happens to be a family law attorney. And there’s the consultation/lawyer whom I talked to today. I know a lot of lawyers beyond those three.

[AlleyOop23]

@cat familiar
As Chaz Palminteri says in Bronx Tale: “twenty bucks and he’s out of your life for good? You got off cheap kid. You got off cheap.”

[GaGrl]

If you want to end up with 50-50, you might need to start with filing for full custody. If your wife exhibits physical and emotional abuse, filing for 50-50 tells the court that you a fee okay with your children being exposed to that abuse 50% of their time. Are you comfortable with that?

[AlleyOop23]

If I genuinely thought she was abusive to the kids I would file for full custody and I would fight and slog and burn it all down. If I thought she was physically assaulting them I’d call the police move out amd take them with me.

She doesnt treat them the way she treats me. Is she too harsh sometimes, parents with more shame than I believe she shluld? Yes absolutely.

The older one is in therapy and I’ve set up a call with her therapist and I to see or thrr are any concerns “about her parents relationship”

It is possible and maybe even logical that with me out of the house she turns that abuse onto the kids. But I just don’t see it happening.
I can’t testify that I think she’s a danger and shouldn’t have custody at all be cause I dont believe it. And right there is where I worry I’m naive. Am I blind to the effect of her parenting on
Y kids? My gut tells me I am not. I read that many male abuse victims are in denial about abuse of their kids as they would then have to act. Is that me? I honestly think it is not.

But I am an abuse victim. Do I trust my instincts anymore?

Bottom line after talking to my actual current representing me lawyer I don’t have anything I can offer a court in the way of evidence to suggest my wife should not have custody of the kids.

But this is why I’m writing - to gain insight and the benefit of this group’s perspective on what I write.

[kells76]

Let's talk more about what "50/50" and "custody" mean to you and mean in your state. This is really important.

In my state, the distinction between "joint" and "sole" only applies to legal custody. Either both parents are equal legal decision makers (for medical, dental, school, therapy, etc), or one parent gets final say on everything. My H believed at the time that "custody" meant "parenting time". As he was working full time as the breadwinner, he believed that he had to let Mom have sole custody, not understanding that that, in our state, did not just mean Mom had the kids most of the time, it meant she had final say on every legal decision. This has been an indescribably hard thing to claw back from.

It is completely possible in our state for one parent to have sole legal custody, but the parenting time to be split perfectly equally. It is also possible for the parent with sole custody to have majority PT. It is logically possible (though less common) for the parent with sole custody to have minority PT.

When you say 50/50, are you talking about parenting time, legal decision making, or both?

It is very possible to come up with a non-boilerplate custody agreement and parenting plan that is not just "we assume Mom and Dad are equal decision makers and share time equally", that also isn't "scorched earth". Being super strategic here can pay off.

I'll pause here to hear more from you -- know that this is very work-out-able ahead of time.

[AlleyOop23]

Thanks for your thoughts. Legal custody is a separate concept. Barring some big reason which does it exist on either side here, legal custody- decisions such as medical, school choices, etc are equal joint decisions.

So you are correct to make the point that what I’m referring to is parenting time. I was never interested in “winning” the parenting time split. Rather I was inclined to let my wife think she was winning but figure out ways on paper that my end of parenting time meant more.

Where I’m stuck is the assertion that I’m somehow failing my kids by not trying to get ALL the time because I’m too naive to see they are suffering

I don’t think I’m naive. And if I show up with no sufficient basis for stating I, the male working parent should get all parenting time and she, the female primary parent should know have none, well, I think that backfires on me quickly and I look over aggressive and unreasonable

[kells76]

OK, that makes sense.

Barring some big reason which does it exist on either side here, legal custody- decisions such as medical, school choices, etc are equal joint decisions.

So the boilerplate presumption in your area is joint legal; that can be common. We know and you know that BPD can impact a person's ability to be agreeable, rational, and cooperative. Making legal decisions for minor children needs both parties to be agreeable, rational, and cooperative.

This is where you knowing that BPD is a factor means that you may have to hand-craft a couple of custody agreements that are not boilerplate, that will cover your bases so you aren't left with "I thought X was better but she wants Not X. Now we're stuck because there is no tiebreaker" over and over.

One way to approach thinking about it is -- it's better to assume (in your head) a worse-case scenario, and it never happens, than to assume that "you guys will be able to coparent even though you couldn't work as spouses".

We may have talked in your last thread about how some parents will divvy up the legal decision making areas, giving the parent with BPD numerically equal or more, but content-wise keeping the "big ones". So maybe there is a way for you to propose: "Mom is tiebreaker on OB/GYN care, vision, dental, and religion. Dad is tiebreaker on medical, therapy, and education". She feels like she wins because she got more, but if you are final say on therapy and education, she can't pull the kids from therapy unilaterally, and she can't change the kids' schools when she feels like it or when you get too involved in their school. Ask me how I know about that last one  

Where I’m stuck is the assertion that I’m somehow failing my kids by not trying to get ALL the time because I’m too naive to see they are suffering

I don’t think I’m naive. And if I show up with no sufficient basis for stating I, the male working parent should get all parenting time and she, the female primary parent should know have none, well, I think that backfires on me quickly and I look over aggressive and unreasonable

Maybe this is part of it -- you haven't divorced yet. Her current relational dysfunction and intensity may be focused on you. So it's not that you're too naive to see what's going on for your kids, it's that it isn't going on at a dysfunctional level for them. OK, yes, BPD impacts all family relationships, but I think what I'm getting at is -- I don't think you're missing seeing something, it's that the circumstances that could lead to her having a greater negative parenting impact haven't happened yet.

So you may be right to approach it as -- you don't have a current basis for saying "Dad gets 100% of the parenting time" or whatnot. That isn't necessarily naive.

But you can see down the road. It is probable that more parenting difficulty will come (unless you think she will pivot her focus to new adult romantic relationships? That can happen).

Maybe we can bypass the question of "Is AlleyOop23 naive, or blind, or seeing it, or not seeing it" because whatever is or is not going on now, we're focused on planning for the probable conflict down the road.

...

The question for me would be: how can we get your hands on the levers that matter in a custody agreement and PP now, so that if you have to use them later, you can, and if not, hey, that's great!

Divvying up legal decision making, so that there are named tie breakers in every category, is one way.

I'd consider proposals involving you getting a significant number of school holidays/days off, and getting more days around big-name holidays in exchange for Mom getting day of the holiday. I'd propose that a lot of school hours time is Mom's parenting time, in such a way that on paper she has more hours/week than you do, but effectively you have more time with them.

In terms of PP's -- what have you looked at so far? Our Family Wizard and Talking Parents both have some options online to look at (I think), but for your situation you may have to go bespoke. And I wouldn't just make one, I'd make two to three slightly different ones for negotiation.

...

if I show up with no sufficient basis for stating I, the male working parent should get all parenting time and she, the female primary parent should know have none, well, I think that backfires on me quickly and I look over aggressive and unreasonable

It really depends on what you think your kids' mom is going to do and what your L knows about judges in your area.

I think it would be better to come up with a few "Dad gets significant majority PT" plans, and never have to pitch them, then to find yourself in a situation where Mom is saying "I want 100% PT and Dad to get 0%", you're saying "I want 50% PT just to be fair", and a judge says "Fine, we're splitting the difference" and you end up with 25%.

You may never have to use draft proposals where you're getting majority PT, but have a couple just in case, so that you have somewhere to negotiate down from.

It's fine to negotiate down from "Dad gets 85%" to "Dad gets 50-55%". It is a much harder row to hoe to climb up from "Mom wants Dad to get 0, Dad wants 50". You can only negotiate down from 50%. Don't have what you actually want be the first thing you propose.

Anyway -- lots of food for thought...

[kells76]

One more thought just hit.

Maybe this is less about "who gets more", or "who is naive", or this or that --

it's about closing loopholes.

Whatever plan works best for you and your children, how can it be the most airtight, rock solid, manipulation-proof plan, legally?

Now, don't undersell yourself, and I wouldn't recommend starting negotiations at your preferred position.

But in the end -- if you "won" 85% PT on paper, but there weren't any safeguards like "PT may only be changed by the parents, not the children, by mutual agreement by the two parents, in emails at minimum 48 hours in advance of the proposed change" or whatever -- then it doesn't matter what anyone has on paper if it isn't airtight.

So that can be another tack to take. Again -- don't sell yourself short -- but if for whatever reason you having 45% PT is the only thing that can work, then work with your L to make sure that it is 200% protected. Various ways to do that -- we can talk about that more if you'd like.

[ForeverDad]

Oh my, so many tidbits to share here.

The lawyer who had his own BPD divorce is correct, it could get very, very intense divorcing a spouse with BPD.  My ex was so possessive that our Custody Evaluator, a child psychologist, stated in his initial report, "Mother cannot share 'her' child but Father can."  The problem is that no one can predict precisely how intense your spouse's opposition and sabotaging behavior will be.  BPD consists of traits that can range from strong to mild.  However, a wise perspective to have is to Plan for Intense opposition while hoping for grudging acceptance of reality.

Yes, odds are your case will lean toward the opposing / sabotage end of the scale.  That's what we see here a lot on the Separating/Divorcing board.  I don't think this is a statistically accurate example of the general population, I "hope" it's due to spouses so desperately seeking help that those are the ones who find us here.  (After all, we also have a number of members over on our bettering and other boards.  On the other hand, many people don't know that they're dealing with an impacting Personality Disorder.)

This is where Boundaries are so very important.  A common pattern with pwBPD is that if you weaken a boundary, then they'll almost certainly demand more.  See the Boundary articles on our Tools & skills Workshops board.  Or here:
Setting Boundaries and Setting Limits

You are naive to think 50/50 is a good idea.  If you ask for 50/50 then that's all the court will expect you to want.  Your spouse will likely demand everything, all parenting, all support, etc.  From the start you should properly state that you're an involved father and the children would do best that you remain an involved father.  There is everything excellent about saying you want as much time and responsibility the court will allow.  You're not just deep pockets for an ex-spouse to assume the contents are hers.

You are naive to think your kids are not scarred by emotional abuse.  I recall what my ex said in her final months in our home... that I was weak, she wore the pants in our family, <more sexually disparaging verbal abuse>, that she'd disappear with our preschooler.  Though I started with no custody and only alternate weekends in the temp order, I never wavered from my goal, then I had shared parenting and equal time, then full custody, then majority time during the school year.  It was a long tough road, with court making just incremental improvements over time.  But it did gradually get better.  He's grown now, it's been a few years since he's aged out of the System.  Yes, he still talks to his mother daily, but where do you think he still lives?

Your spouse will... fabricate allegations, cast you as Mr Evil Personified, drain your accounts, alienate your kids from you.  Sadly, that is likely.  We just don't know in advance how determined she will be to devastate you.

My ex never made DV allegations against me, probably because we started our separation with her facing Threat of DV charges.  But she made allegations of all sorts of child abuse.  It was hard at first since he was young and under her influence and she sought out all sorts of places to insinuate abuse (pediatrician, children's services multiple times, hospital, sheriff's office, probably more) but soon children's services figured out the reality.  They did not stop her from filing accusations but always the result was a wimpy "unsubstantiated".  Better would have been a firm "unfounded".

This is not.a custody case it is a child protection case...  I don’t want to mess up my kids. But for them I’d have packed my bags 3 years ago.

Your girls are already in tween or teen years.  All too soon they'll be grown and gone.  And No, a divorce will not mess up your kids.  Rather, though it will be difficult at first, more likely it will result in your children getting to see the difference between an appeasing dominated father (I presume) and a father who is in charge of a loving and stable home with consistent rules.

There is no single fix that resolves all the concerns.  However, there are partial solutions that can improve circumstances.

Living in a calm and stable home, even if only for part of their lives, will give the children a better example of normalcy for their own future relationships.  Staying together would mean that's the only example of home life they would have known — discord, conflict, invalidation, alienation attempts, overall craziness, etc... As the saying goes, As the saying goes, "I'd rather come from a broken home than live in one."  Ponder that.  Taking action will enable your lives, or at least a part of your lives going forward, to be spent be in a calm, stable environment — your home, wherever that is — away from the blaming, emotional distortions, pressuring demands and manipulations, unpredictable ever-looming rages and outright chaos.  And some of the flying monkeys too.

The problem is that court's first reaction is to view this as two parents bickering and both might be at fault.  It will take time and continuing documentation to convince this is a problem parent versus a reasonably normal and caring parent.  It's possible court may initially feel defaulting to motherhood is the best start.  (That's what my court did and I was stuck with it for two years.)  Beware that setting the initial "temporary" order is very important because court can do so in a brief half hour hearing.  Stand up for yourself as an involved father and ensure you and your lawyer focus (due to the limited time) on important documentation so you're not digging yourself out of a poor "standard" temp order for the next year or two.  Forget minor issues, concentrate on you having at least some custody, better yet, joint custody with some sort of Decision Making or Tie Breaker status on the important aspects of mental health (counseling) and schooling.

As was recommended already, asking for equal time while spouse is demanding 99% or even that you be limited to supervised visits can let the judge "split the hairs" and order something in between such as "standard" dad alternate weekends.  If your goal is for majority time, then say so, but also be cooperative and accepting of an equal time order.

[livednlearned]

Just want to chime in here and remind you to breathe  

It's hard when the stakes feel so high (our kids, our mental health, our homes).

Breathing helps your parasympathetic nervous system get you (and your brain) out of fight/flight/freeze. It's better for thinking  

A friend of mine turned me onto a lawyer turned BPD divorce expert for a consult. His story of his own horrific divorce from a BPD is on his site.  I appreciate his willingness to share his time with my me.

He sounds like an aggressive lawyer.

An assertive lawyer is more like this.

An assertive lawyer will cost a lot. An aggressive lawyer will cost more. They tend to blow things up because they don't have the finesse to do things without dynamite.

Some aggressive lawyers display personality disorder traits.

Finally he tells “you’re not going to like this but”!he tells me based on my naïveté and affect that I don’t have what it takes and that I should “stoop to conquer” and not even start a divorce. Just stay and figure out how to take it.

Honestly, this sounds like he hasn't resolved his own traumatic marriage and divorce.

Then I ran all this by a family lawyer friend who said to be honest he’s probably right and I think you’ll stay at least three more years.

What part of what he said did he mean "he's probably right"?

Fwiw my current attorney purports to be versed innHCP. He’s convinced me I can’t hold back the abuse facts. The plan is to fight for 50//50. All the bad stuff goes in and we’re seeking temporary orders when we file.

Were you suggesting to him that you wanted to hold back facts about the abuse?

Did he give you a sense of why he thought 50/50 made sense for your case?

I’ve been lurching around seeking advice and direction and all kinds of perspectives but ultimately I gotta make the calls and steer the ship.

If you have codependent tendencies, which isn't uncommon, you may feel drawn to people who present with a lot of confidence. Does the lawyer you're working with come across as reasonable? Did your current lawyer give you a sense that there is a clear goal with a strategy (or strategies) including tactics?

Am I naive? Are my kids in worse shape than I think? Am I? He grilled me on ptsd and yeah I’ve got symptoms.

If you have emotional injuries that prevent you from understanding what constitutes emotional safety and healthy emotions, you may struggle to gauge if those qualities are present for the kids. It is ok to recognize that the kids will need therapy, and you as well, to process how everyone got to this point.

It might help to read a bit to see what is normal/not normal and see where things stack up in your family. Bill Eddy wrote Splitting, and he also wrote Don't Alienate the Kids: Raising Emotionally Resilient Kids When One Parent has BPD.

Do I have a strategy that will fail me and my kids?

What is the strategy?

I am now picturing longer darker riskier and a lifetime of continued abuse and I look at my wife and think I can t believe she’s going to be even worse to me. I was picturing living apart, without eggshells.

There is another path where you step away from the abuse and you begin to heal and get stronger. You spend less time surviving and more time tending to things that move your healing forward. She may not change, but you can, and those changes may change her.

Not that any of this will be easy.

I could use insight on planning for the worst. On choosing an expert and making sure my lawyer is up to it. Amd on strategy and following my instincts.

How do you feel about your attorney so far?

[AlleyOop23]

This is all so so so helpful. I have a lot to write about and ask and I will. I’m
An atheist but thank god for this board.

My wife lost it a lot today. 36 inches of texts. She insisted that I not pick up kids from Activities and then laid out what I would and would not be doing with the kids essentially limiting my time with them. Today was our anniversary and she is always more triggered on holidays.

I stepped back. After she threatened to make a scene I said fine pick them up tonight

I have no interest in letting this go. My preference at this point is thenhell with a bully I’m going down there and picking up my kid! As for boundaries, yeah, I want to set them. As I’ve been setting more she’s been predictably escalating.

So the question in this boards opinion (and I’ve put this to my lawyer as well) what is the lesser evil?’ Avoiding conflict? Or letting her have Her way ESPECIALLY when it comes to the kids?

Don’t want to traumatize them with open hostility. Don’t want to sacrifice them by avoiding.

Note - I’ve come a long way. A year ago I would have avoided the fight for codependent reasons. Now I’m making non fear based decisions. I’m taking the small stuff.

[AlleyOop23]

Appended thought - she went upstairs said “you can have dinner with the kids” amd started a bath. Amd I’m thinking - wait what? All I have to do is wade through swampy hell but at some point I get to leave and at some further point I get to be divorced? Awesome I can do that!

[GaGrl]

You really have no idea at this poi t as to what your wife has traumatized your children.

Here are some of my husband's experiences with his uBPD/NPD ex-wife ...

1) She refused to go with him to a military assignment overseas, at the last minute. This meant a two year separation with her staying in his hometown with his financial support and her independence. She was arrested for bashing in her lover,'s windshield. She showed up at his sister's house, at which point his sister said she would take the children but not her. Not pretty. She had a peace bond imposed.

2) She went with him to his next assignment, but had a flagrant affair with an enlisted man that caused him a command. He considered divorce at this point.

3) She refused to live with him at further assignments. The marriage deteriorated until the 12-year-old daughter walked in on her mother and a lover having sex on the living room floor.

4) The local CS became involved after an incident with the adopted daughter ( the wife's niece from Thailand). School counselors were involved.

5) H was offered an Executive Officer assignment to Central America, next assignment would have been the Pentagon. H was convinced if he was gone for two years, someone would be dead -- either his then twice or one of his teens children

He went from active to reserve and did not go.

[GaGrl]

You really have no idea at this point as to how your wife has traumatized your children.

Here are some of my husband's experiences with his uBPD/NPD ex-wife ...

1) She refused to go with him to a military assignment overseas, at the last minute. This meant a two year separation with her staying in his hometown with his financial support and her independence. She was arrested for bashing in her lover,'s windshield. She showed up at his sister's house, at which point his sister said she would take the children but not her. Not pretty. She had a peace bond imposed.

2) She went with him to his next assignment, but had a flagrant affair with an enlisted man that caused him a command. He considered divorce at this point.

3) She refused to live with him at further assignments. The marriage deteriorated until the 12-year-old daughter walked in on her mother and a lover having sex on the living room floor.

4) The local CS became involved after an incident with the adopted daughter ( the wife's niece from Thailand). School counselors were involved.

5) H was offered an Executive Officer assignment to Central America, next assignment would have been the Pentagon. H was convinced if he was gone for two years, someone would be dead -- either his then twice or one of his teens children

He went from active to reserve and did not go.

[ForeverDad]

As for boundaries, yeah, I want to set them. As I’ve been setting more she’s been predictably escalating.

The escalation is more or less a predictable response to your better boundaries.  Your spouse has a comfort zone where she sets the rules and orders (that apply to you but not necessarily to her).  You've upset her preferred view of family life.  Hence, the Extinction Burst reaction designed to cause you to retreat to prior weak behavior patterns and responses,  where you had previously submitted yourself to her controller demands.

So, what do you do now?  If they're reasonable and decent boundaries, stick with them.  But... what are the boundaries?  PwBPD resist boundaries, especially when you're telling them what to do or not do.  So, with that understood, how do you make workable boundaries?  You may not read these words directly in the text of the boundaries articles I linked above, but in my perspective it boils down to a simple equation... "If you do or don't do ___, then in response I will do or not do ___."  Mostly your response will be a variation of a timeout to let her ponder the matter, cool down, or whatever.

Read those links.  They have examples.  For a generic example, if your reasonable boundary is violated, tell her you're going to take a walk around the block or go to the supermarket to purchase something.  If the kids were observing, let them come along.  If it involves something about the kids, take them to a local park or some other activity for a while, not as a reward but to give her some time to reset and then return with the kids as though everything was normal.  Warning, it may take a few times before she gets the idea.  PwBPD are erratic and predictably unpredictable so accept that nothing works all the time.

Yes, certain events such as anniversaries and a myriad of other triggers can put your spouse on edge.  Some are minor and you can often let her cool down or you Let them Go.  (Or you can start with the small stuff to get a feel for how to do it.)  Others that impact you, the children, or the entire family, that is of more lasting concern.

One final thought.  You always need to keep your composure.  If there is any shouting, ranting or raging, ensure it isn't you.  Always be calm, or as calm as possible, set an example for your children.  Did you notice in my example above that you should walk away from conflict?  Don't engage shouting matches, they don't accomplish anything.  Let that be an example for your children to see and in time imitate.

I often tell our newer members to imagine a judge looking over your shoulder 24/7.  Will he be impressed or mumble "tsk, tsk, you're both problem parents"?  I quietly recorded my spouse (before we had smart phones) during some of her tantrums so I could document I wasn't the aggressive one (my ex loved to pose as though a victim) nor the one causing her poor behavior.

If and when you get to a legal stage, even if you both are at first viewed as needlessly bickering parents, eventually you want the court or its evaluators and associated professionals to realize that you always are the parent proposing solutions, not the one creating obstacles and conflict.

[SaltyDawg]

AlleyOop23,

   LnL has good advice, straight from the book:

Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline Or Narcissistic Personality Disorder

by Bill Eddy and Randi Kreger

Make sure you get the most recent edition.

I highly recommend you read it cover to cover as soon as you can as it will give you a better understanding of what you are up against.

My biggest take-a-way from the book is to have solid documentation that you are a good dad, you are the reasonable parent and a problem solver and be on best behavior.

It will be the best $20 you will spend...

Be sure to do self-care, to decompress from the stress of all of this.

[livednlearned]

what is the lesser evil?’ Avoiding conflict? Or letting her have Her way ESPECIALLY when it comes to the kids?

Some of this depends on what your short-term goals are.

Even the best plans can have stuff that goes sideways, and yet, you probably have a timeline, yes?

When you head into a high-conflict divorce, documentation is going to matter, even if it doesn't matter, if that makes sense.

36 inches of text exchanges limiting your time with the kids was followed by "fine."

What if you followed with, "I have concerns about the ways in which you are limiting my time with the kids. I love these kids more than I can express and spending time with them is, like I've said over and over, my greatest priority."

Say what you feel. If it's too much conflict and not good for anyone, let her get the kids but leave a record that you protested, and how you feel. "I won't pick them up only because I refuse to add any more conflict to their lives."

Thoughts?

[AlleyOop23]

Omg those examples are AMAZING. perfect. That provides me with a tremendously helpful mindset.

[AlleyOop23]

Thank you thank you all of you. I am grateful beyond measure. The advice is so helpful. The support is so needed. Hearing from those who have been there is just so essential. I’ll be back to re-read and ask more.

I redownloaded Splitting. I read it a year ago. It really freaked me out at the time. Now my reaction is far more measured. Things that were hard to read I now shrug. I think I really was not ready to admit it had to be over.

[yeeter]

You have two battles.  The court and legal side.  And the battle to maintain the relationship with your children

What my ex figured out early on is that most of what is fought over in a divorce agreement is unenforceable.  You simply can not force behavior.  (Most of what divorce comes down to is financial agreement).

Your children are old enough that a court can not ‘make’ them keep a relationship with you.  So if your wife alienates them and turns them against you, you lose them for life. No matter what a court document says. 

The legal system is not equipped to deal with it.  And in many ways enables it.

So you have to assess early if this is a ‘possibility’. If so, being ‘reasonable’ (which the lawyers and courts all hope prevails), will NOT prevail and by then you will have lost your children

The fact that even one lawyer pointed this out is a signal.  Listen to it

[Notwendy]

I think you can assume that she won't treat your kids like she treats you, eventually. They may not be old enough yet.

They are becoming old enough to be useful to her and also emotional caretakers. Once they are old enough to "talk back" to her, the sparks may fly.

My BPD mother wasn't physically abusive to me in the classical sense. Verbal and emotional abuse- yes. The "problem" with no physical abuse ( even though it's not a good thing) is that it's hard to prove.

Dad was her enabler. I think he did what he knew to do at the time but the family rule was to keep her behavior a secret.

Then there are other ways that may not be classical "abuse"- that is to be my mother's emotional caretaker and listen to her confide in me her issues with her relationship with my father.

Dad did what he could to mitigate the effects of of her behavior on us and I think overall he did as good a job of that as anyone could. In the time my parents were married, it was the mother who got full custody of the kids. I think that played a part in his decision to not divorce. However, they stayed together after we grew up and left home so I don't think it was the only reason.

If they had divorced when I was a teen, I'd have asked the courts to let me stay with him.

IMHO, now that divorce is on the table- do what you can to get your time with those girls.

 

[AlleyOop23]

Thanks all. As I prepare to move out I’ve got some concerns.

My wife is the primary parent. She plans their stuff.  She plans doctor visits she plans holidays, gifts, celebrations, looking at middle schools and high schools. She sets up more play dates. She plans trips.

This is all true for three reasons.

1. She feels more urgency around it than me. I would rather plan less and have less stress. For her I think in her mind she didn’t really try if she didn’t stress about it.

2. She’s the primary parent. She worked part time and then not at all (outside the home).

3. When I’ve planned things she is so critical and hurtful that I’ve simply stopped.

So now I’m going to show up in this divorce amd say I’m going to do alll that. Well that’s true. I want to do it. I always wanted to do more. She just hates my “last minute chaos.”

How do I prove this is true. She logs onto the school websites more than me. Takes them to appointments more than me. And of course she does, we agreed. But I feel like I don’t know what external proof of this I have. My wife continually tells me I don’t know what’s going on with them. I think I do. Anyway, any
Thoughts?

I’m taking this to my lawyer as well.

Tonight we were home alone  I’ve been engineering it so we’re not. Damn she laid into me, yelling, every damn thing she could think of that I’ve ever done amd then told me me to pack amd leave and get the PLEASE READ out and took a pile of my dry cleaning and threw it out the door onto the front steps. It was raining, our daughter was due  to be dropped off.

I continue to worry about escalation after I serve her. The temporary orders motion is going to contain very unflattering things. She’s going to be feel publicly betrayed, publicly humiliated and abandoned. That’s about as bad as it gets for her

[ForeverDad]

No, it'll probably get worse.   But you can roll with the punches like all us dads here.

Really, it's not as bad as you fear.  Yes, there will certainly be some down days.  I presume today was once of them.

Question: Why do you think she is so nasty to you?
Answer: Because they hurt you so much and you're used to caving to her criticism.

I too was a calm and relaxed dad.  But I put my nose to the grindstone and made sure I slogged through the rough times.

Just because she does a lot for the kids doesn't mean you're a nothing parent.  Being home, she has more time for the kids.  But that doesn't mean you can't monitor who the kids' doctors and teachers are.  You can sit down with the kids and review their homework even if already completed.  You can most definitely go to parent-teacher nights.  (During my divorce there were two time slots on my son's P-T nights, one with his mother and one with me.  Teachers dealt kindly with the awkwardness.)

She’s going to be feel publicly betrayed, publicly humiliated and abandoned. That’s about as bad as it gets for her.

You need to adjust your perspective.  Your focus should be on yourself and your parenting (the children).  You are ending the relationship with your spouse.  That means your priority structure is (1) yourself (2) the parenting of your kids and way way down the list is your stbEx's problems.  Sorry, I'm not unfeeling, but she sunk the marriage, let her face whatever consequences there are.

I know it's hard to stop trying to please, obey or appease her, but that's the new reality.

Also, when you move out you are NOT leaving the kids behind.  Likely court will assign a schedule where both parents will split the parenting.  You do your best to seek as much parenting as the court will allow.  That is what being an involved parent is like... you care... even if in the past your spouse squeezed you out.

Also wherever you go, make sure the residence is large enough for you and the kids when they're with you, so no long term hole in the wall micro apartment.

[yeeter]

Your lawyers 'should' give you additional guidance, but a couple suggestions:

Make a list of all things you have done with your kids in the past.  Over the years.  You need to show that you were involved to some degree.

Having said that she will be seen as the primary caregiver (given your description of how things work).  Unless you can prove she is 'unfit' mother, that is unlikely to change.  But you can document that you did do things with the kids.

Most likely , your lawyers will advise you to NOT move out until a temporary agreement is in place.  This could be two or three months to establish.  So plan on living with an incredibly hostile person during this time.  (holidays make it worse). 

Collect any legal documents (titles, tax records, birth certificates, etc etc), information, and possessions that you feel are critically valuable to you.  Dont forget key sentimental items (these can get purposely destroyed), and photographs.  Old family photos, and a backup of your computer files.

Start creating a log of events.  Every interaction and what was said.  Take notes and date/time stamp it.  In particular a log of interaction with the kids.

Assume it will escalate in ways you can not imagine.  Get your support network in place and use it.

[EyesUp]

Your lawyers 'should' give you additional guidance, but a couple suggestions:

Make a list of all things you have done with your kids in the past.  Over the years.  You need to show that you were involved to some degree.

Having said that she will be seen as the primary caregiver (given your description of how things work).  Unless you can prove she is 'unfit' mother, that is unlikely to change.  But you can document that you did do things with the kids.

Most likely , your lawyers will advise you to NOT move out until a temporary agreement is in place.  This could be two or three months to establish.  So plan on living with an incredibly hostile person during this time.  (holidays make it worse). 

Collect any legal documents (titles, tax records, birth certificates, etc etc), information, and possessions that you feel are critically valuable to you.  Dont forget key sentimental items (these can get purposely destroyed), and photographs.  Old family photos, and a backup of your computer files.

Start creating a log of events.  Every interaction and what was said.  Take notes and date/time stamp it.  In particular a log of interaction with the kids.

Assume it will escalate in ways you can not imagine.  Get your support network in place and use it.

This.

All of this.

Don't move out - that is a huge signal to the court that you trust your stbx with the kids.  You say you do - but does that mean that you're ready to make her the primary parent, and all that entails?  Because moving out basically says:  "I want to pay my stbx maximum child support to maintain her role as primary parent".  Any atty who supports this move out plan is either not thinking in your best interest, or looking for a shortcut to a fait accompli case in which you get every other weekend with your kids and your stbx gets to keep the house and receive maximum child support.  My instinct is:  you need to interview a few more attys, or learn a bit more about this process until you're out of the fog (and by fog, I mean FOG).

Get a DVR and keep it running 24/7.  Know your local laws, but do it anyway - this is how you combat false DV accusations while cohabitating, if necessary.

Document, document, document.

Retroactive log of everything you've done.

What you haven't done - start now.  Become a presence at school.  Show up at parent-teacher conferences.  Start somewhere.  Document it.   Once the divorce process is formally underway, you will need to be involved in everything.

About the 50/50 thing.  Does your stbx have a good community of friends and family that will help keep her centered?  Do you and your stbx socialize with your kids' friends parents?  How will those relationships change?  Do you kids have close aunts, uncles, cousins on your stbx's side?   I ask these things because in my situation, my uBPDxw does, in fact, have a supportive family - and they are close to our kids.  So I understood, on some level, that my uBPDxw had the proverbial "village" - in fact, more than me.   

I participated in doctor's appointments, often took the kids to friends' bday parties while x stayed home to rest, always did swim lessons / dance lessons / gymnastics lesson, etc., always at school events, teacher conferences, and often at doctor's appts, too.  I have always shared that stuff - and I was told by more than one atty that 50-50 was never a guaranty, and not to expect more.  My x had a few recent mental health blemishes on her record, too.  None of it mattered to any of the experts that I consulted in my state.  And I interviewed a LOT of experts - GALs, family therapists, mediators, and attys.   

So I accepted that 50-50 wasn't necessarily the end point - just the most likely starting point - and that I would need to remain vigilant and continue to be superdad, and to be prepared to return to court for a modification or emergency orders, etc.  And I'm still walking on that particular tight rope, while my x continues to stoke conflict and play victim and act out all the alienation behaviors in the book...

In scenarios like ours, the divorce isn't the end - it's just the end of a chapter.  An inflection point.  Some of the advice you've received may be well and good.  And there are certainly predictable and repeatable patterns in these cases.  But, still - every case is unique, and no one knows your stbx better than you. Use this knowledge to your advantage.

The way I see it - for you, the clock starts now and it's going to take some time between when you or your stbx file and when the deal is done.  Between now and then, you might settle or you might go to trial (unlikely, but it can happen).  The point is:  The judge will only look at one to two years of recent activity as precedent - so start doing everything now.  Don't do it in the "I'm taking over" way that will trigger your stbx, obviously - do it in subtle ways. In fact, if your stbx is anything like mine, she'll prob gladly hand over a few appointments so she can go get her nails done or whatever. Take that gift.

Document everything you do.  Every breakfast, every walk in the park, every trip to a playground, every bike ride, every movie.  Even if you're not automatically at the doctor's office, document what you DO do.

[AlleyOop23]

Thanks bpdfamily for the help so far. I’ve turned in everything to my lawyers for filing for divorce. Things at home are worse, my stbx is even more hostile. My wife said she wants to separate and I told her I’m moving out.  

She doesn’t know I have a lawyer or thatI just rented a place.i am not certain she is serious or understands that I am serious. I am preparing and she isn’t.i have a therapist, lawyers and a divorce coach. She has never consulted with a lawyer (I do actually know this). It  feels both crappy and necessary to be doing all these preparations in secret. I plan to drip out the information to her rather than drop it all in her at once.

So first please look at how I’m dropping facts and see if you have any thoughts. Obviously you don’t know her but some of your experiences are some eerily similar you never know. Then I’ve got a few questions.

When we discussed what she calls separation I said we’re not separating I’m moving out and we’re divorcing.  She then told me she expects I’ll see the kids during the week when I drive them to school and sometimes on weekends. I will not get a place where they have their own rooms (they currently don’t)and I will tell the kids I will not get them a dog (I’ve said I would). I responded that I wouldn’t discuss terms now.

I’ve since told her only that we are not on the same page about the kids’ living situation and we should try to minimize conflict. That we should prepare and not negotiate directly. I suggested a coparenting mediator/guide person and some documentaries by the Split Outreach Program.

If she won’t start talking about anything then I’ll tell her she’s not leaving me a choice and that I’m starting a divorce action and she needs a lawyer. (If she does start talking I’ll react to that but regardless I am starting a divorce).

That’s how I plan to ease her into this and try as best I can to minimize the volatility, which may be impossible but at least I will feel i tried.

Some things I am pondering. There are some things that need to happen that potentially put my kids into a compromising position.  First I need to tell them separately per all the advice I’ve gotten and per my own judgment. Jointly telling them is probably a disaster.

If my wife isnt participating I need them to bring some things and clothes to my new place. They will be worried she will be upset about their choices if she isn’t providing feedback or helping them make decisions sort of like “dad are you sure we should be doing this?” way. Not sure how to best help them or avoid setting them up for an awkward or angry exchange with their mother, mostly over clothes. (I am buying two of everything else they possess like coats, tablets, chromebooks etc).

When my stbx is served with the divorce papers, because she has been so uncompromising I, per legal advice, need to move for temporary orders on money and seeking 50/50 parenting  time. The papers detail her abuse, including four times babe has been physically abusive to me. This breach in her mind of loyalty and trust, combined with the attack on her parenting time and the reality that she can’t control things will be a massive shock to an already unstable person. Her identity is that she’s a mom and her conviction is that I’m bad for the kids. This is so explosive I discussed potentially getting an order for protection with my lawyers. I’ve chosen not to seek one due to the downstream effect that will have especially on the kids.

Also in the motion will be me relating some conversations I’ve had with the kids about some of her behavior. I’ve tried to tell her that she’s too hard on them especially our 13 yo. When she sees these conversations part of me worries she will feel betrayed by the kids and take it out on them. There is no precedent for that I’m just worried.

She is mostly a loving and supportive parent. They need time with her. Their relationship isn’t so bad they shouldn’t be with her. But they do need time away and time with me and what the kids have to say is part of that. I am moving for the kids to have a guardian at litem appointed and well almost certainly have a custody evaluation. But I’m afraid I’m potentially making my kids relationship with their mom harder.


So if this board can provide feedback of any kind I will once again be grateful n beyond measure. Thank you.

[Tangled mangled]

Thanks bpdfamily for the help so far. I’ve turned in everything to my lawyers for filing for divorce. Things at home are worse, my stbx is even more hostile. My wife said she wants to separate and I told her I’m moving out.  

She doesn’t know I have a lawyer or thatI just rented a place.i am not certain she is serious or understands that I am serious. I am preparing and she isn’t.i have a therapist, lawyers and a divorce coach. She has never consulted with a lawyer (I do actually know this). It  feels both crappy and necessary to be doing all these preparations in secret. I plan to drip out the information to her rather than drop it all in her at once.

So first please look at how I’m dropping facts and see if you have any thoughts. Obviously you don’t know her but some of your experiences are some eerily similar you never know. Then I’ve got a few questions.

When we discussed what she calls separation I said we’re not separating I’m moving out and we’re divorcing.  She then told me she expects I’ll see the kids during the week when I drive them to school and sometimes on weekends. I will not get a place where they have their own rooms (they currently don’t)and I will tell the kids I will not get them a dog (I’ve said I would). I responded that I wouldn’t discuss terms now.

I’ve since told her only that we are not on the same page about the kids’ living situation and we should try to minimize conflict. That we should prepare and not negotiate directly. I suggested a coparenting mediator/guide person and some documentaries by the Split Outreach Program.

If she won’t start talking about anything then I’ll tell her she’s not leaving me a choice and that I’m starting a divorce action and she needs a lawyer. (If she does start talking I’ll react to that but regardless I am starting a divorce).

That’s how I plan to ease her into this and try as best I can to minimize the volatility, which may be impossible but at least I will feel i tried.

Some things I am pondering. There are some things that need to happen that potentially put my kids into a compromising position.  First I need to tell them separately per all the advice I’ve gotten and per my own judgment. Jointly telling them is probably a disaster.

If my wife isnt participating I need them to bring some things and clothes to my new place. They will be worried she will be upset about their choices if she isn’t providing feedback or helping them make decisions sort of like “dad are you sure we should be doing this?” way. Not sure how to best help them or avoid setting them up for an awkward or angry exchange with their mother, mostly over clothes. (I am buying two of everything else they possess like coats, tablets, chromebooks etc).

When my stbx is served with the divorce papers, because she has been so uncompromising I, per legal advice, need to move for temporary orders on money and seeking 50/50 parenting  time. The papers detail her abuse, including four times babe has been physically abusive to me. This breach in her mind of loyalty and trust, combined with the attack on her parenting time and the reality that she can’t control things will be a massive shock to an already unstable person. Her identity is that she’s a mom and her conviction is that I’m bad for the kids. This is so explosive I discussed potentially getting an order for protection with my lawyers. I’ve chosen not to seek one due to the downstream effect that will have especially on the kids.

Also in the motion will be me relating some conversations I’ve had with the kids about some of her behavior. I’ve tried to tell her that she’s too hard on them especially our 13 yo. When she sees these conversations part of me worries she will feel betrayed by the kids and take it out on them. There is no precedent for that I’m just worried.

She is mostly a loving and supportive parent. They need time with her. Their relationship isn’t so bad they shouldn’t be with her. But they do need time away and time with me and what the kids have to say is part of that. I am moving for the kids to have a guardian at litem appointed and well almost certainly have a custody evaluation. But I’m afraid I’m potentially making my kids relationship with their mom harder.


So if this board can provide feedback of any kind I will once again be grateful n beyond measure. Thank you.

AlleyOop23

This thread has some great ideas and advice.

I’m just here to chime in especially about your 13 year old. My understanding is you have 2 daughters and you wife is hard on the 13 year old.
I was raised by a high functioning bpd/npd mother and my dad was mainly a narc. I’m currently going through divorce to a bpd husband.
My po is : don’t underestimate the emotional abuse that bpd mother will casually dish out to her daughter. Girls more than boys feel obligated to be nice and caring and are very easy subdue psychologically I mean. It gets worse in teenage years because girls run to their mothers for guidance as their bodies go through puberty. Now that’s how we’ve been programmed biologically but the bpd mother abuses the aspect of her parenting, uses it to control every aspect of female child’s life- her relationships, her needs, her thoughts. You daughter is very vulnerable, at this point.
As others have pointed out, the parental alienation may well be underway.
My parents are still married after 47 years of hell but I remember how scared I was of puberty and the fact that my mum convinced me I should be so scared of falling pregnant that even my dad was not a safe male to be around.
Your wife is so hard on your d13 because she’s priming her to be a caretaker and prepping her as an ally.

So my question will be how is your relationship with your daughter? Does she share easily with you?
The advice I have received here is to be the safe parent when dealing with bpd coparent.

Your plans outlined above a well thought through. I will also add that when you discuss the impending divorce with your children, do make their school/therapist aware, so they can provide much needed support.
Also one thing I did to combat parental alienation was to encourage my sons to have their own voice. No more secrets of what goes on at home. My husband was discouraging them from speaking up. In my care there was DV with the police involved so custody worked in my favour.

I also wonder if you might be able to get any evidence of emotional and psychological abuse through your daughter’s therapist. I don’t know how your courts view psychological abuse of children but being too harsh on a teenager counts as psychological abuse.