a people pleasing question

[Depression = 72% of members]

Interesting book - I will take a look at it.

By workplace - I didn't mean what people are thinking. It's that I have noticed some people are more adept at self advocating than I am but sometimes it's at the expense of co-workers.

Two co-worker left with short notice to take on better job opportunities. This was better for them in the financial sense, but created issues for the remaining co workers who were understaffed.

When presented with a similar opportunity, I hesitated- for several reasons. I didn't want to make a quick decision without knowing more about the position. I had agreed to take on a task with a co-worker and would have left them in a difficult situation. It's not about being concerned if that person likes me or not. It's not the way I choose to behave with people. For the other two who left- one stays in contact with me, the other one- with whom I was closer to, cut contact with work friends.

At the administrative level- their priority is the bottom line. They are far removed from any relationship with us or our working relationships with each other. The main effect on them if an employee leaves is that it incoveniences them to find someone else to do that job. For me, employee changes impact the employees and work relationships.

It's these conflicting considerations- that led me to not take on another job at short notice because it would result in damaging the work relationships that makes me wonder if I do this to my disadvantage. I don't regret saying no. There were unknown issues with the other job as well and I wasn't comfortable with a decision in short time. I do plan to look for other opportunities and would prefer to avoid short notice. Yes, the 2 weeks is standard but still disruptive. Too long would not be a good thing either but there's a balance. I don't dislike my employer and wish to stay in good standing. However, the two people I know who didn't seem as concerned about this have advanced in their positions. It was a good thing for them.

[Notwendy]

Interesting book - I will take a look at it.

By workplace - I didn't mean what people are thinking. It's that I have noticed some people are more adept at self advocating than I am but sometimes it's at the expense of co-workers.

Two co-worker left with short notice to take on better job opportunities. This was better for them in the financial sense, but created issues for the remaining co workers who were understaffed.

When presented with a similar opportunity, I hesitated- for several reasons. I didn't want to make a quick decision without knowing more about the position. I had agreed to take on a task with a co-worker and would have left them in a difficult situation. It's not about being concerned if that person likes me or not. It's not the way I choose to behave with people. For the other two who left- one stays in contact with me, the other one- with whom I was closer to, cut contact with work friends.

At the administrative level- their priority is the bottom line. They are far removed from any relationship with us or our working relationships with each other. The main effect on them if an employee leaves is that it incoveniences them to find someone else to do that job. For me, employee changes impact the employees and work relationships.

It's these conflicting considerations- that led me to not take on another job at short notice because it would result in damaging the work relationships that makes me wonder if I do this to my disadvantage. I don't regret saying no. There were unknown issues with the other job as well and I wasn't comfortable with a decision in short time. I do plan to look for other opportunities and would prefer to avoid short notice. Yes, the 2 weeks is standard but still disruptive. Too long would not be a good thing either but there's a balance. I don't dislike my employer and wish to stay in good standing. However, the two people I know who didn't seem as concerned about this have advanced in their positions. It was a good thing for them.

[Mommydoc]

Such a thoughtful thread.  Your last post reminded me of a conversation with my son, in which he kind of knows he needs to leave his job but is very worried about the impact his departure would have on his co-workers.  I love that both of you take such deep consideration of that, it makes you the kind of co-worker we all want to work with.

Your prior statement might be particularly relevant
 

I could look at it is that I created a state of anxiety for myself by anticipating conflict so I could stay stuck, choosing to feel safe versus feeling authentic.

I am curious if “staying” is safer because it is a known situation, with known challenges and issues.  With the limited information about the opportunity that you passed on, I wonder if you think you passed to stay safe in a known situation.  A work change is always a calculated risk, but most of the time, if the  new work opportunity  and environment are worth that risk, it can pay off with a more stimulating and rewarding work environment. 

It really always comes down to our own self awareness.  Your post made me realize that a lot of the emotions I have burdened myself were of my own making.  I have been creating anxiety by anticipating the worst from my sister, rather than being prepared for it, and taking the situation as it comes in an authentic to myself way.  For me, it may be that I am not confident in my ability to be authentic and true to my values in a conflict situation.  I just need to trust my self and the work I have done.  I wonder if that might be true for you? 

I would love to hear more about the opportunity you passed on, and what you have learned about yourself as you reflect on it. 

[Notwendy]

I think there were several reasons at the time to pass on the opportunity. It would have required a lot of changes in very short notice and there were other things I needed to do at the same time. I didn't feel I had enough time to be properly prepared for the new task- including learning a new computer system, changing insurances, COBRA, (there would have been a gap between leaving and the start date). Also not sure about the benefits. Pay was slightly higher, benefits less- so how would that have played out?

Pros and cons of staying. In my current job, I have compatible work colleagues to share the tasks with. In new job, it would just be me. Pros of staying- less work load ( and less pay but that is the trade off). Cons of staying- my main coworker is not flexible (in a situation that could accommodate flexibility) so I end up defering to them (my co-dependency maybe) but the alternative is to do it all myself. My preference is to be collaborative. I do my part, even willing to do more than my part, but I am happier working collaboratively than solo.

I think the sum of it is that I should change jobs but was not sure that this is the job to change to. I wanted more time to consider what to do. I carry my share of the job and really didn't want to break a committment with short notice.  Although any of us can technically leave the job with short notice, I didn't want to do that.

[Notwendy]

The question for myself is that do I place too much importance on the work relationships and not wanting to cause them harm by leaving at short notice.

Two other employees did just that. One I thought was a friend. I tried to stay in contact with her but she made no effort to reciprocate. Once she was done with the job, she was also done with her co-workers. The other one is ambitious and doesn't care about inconveniencing co-workers. Doesn't care if bridges are burned.

I think my question is not about if it's wrong to care about not causing issues for colleages, but do I care too much?

[Mommydoc]

As I expected, you definitely thought through this and made the right decision for you in this moment.  No job is perfect, but perhaps there is an opportunity out there that is more collaborative and would be a positive change for you.  Maybe you should begin quietly looking?

I think you are asking a good question related to work relationships.  Having just retired from a job that I had work relationships that spanned decades, it was a huge barrier for me in the decision to retire.  But now, looking back, there was a subset of the work relationships that had become friendships.  I know, very clearly now, who I want to stay connected with and who wants to continue to stay connected.   It is a lot more work, but no different than the transitions we make in school, teams, etc… a lot of the relationships fade away, and the important ones stick, when effort is expended.

You may care too much.  My son definitely cares too much.  I know I probably cared too much. I am biased but I think it is always better to care too much than to not care at all/burn bridges.  But just like our relationships with our BPD family members when we take on more responsibility for a relationship, particularly self sacrifice/missing positive opportunities for ourselves, it is important to question ourselves. You are asking the right questions.  Perhaps there is a middle ground, in which you continue to look for other options, but negotiate a longer notice to assure you are able to support a positive transition. You don’t strike me as someone who burns bridges, but you might have to allow yourself to prioritize your needs and goals and accept that there may be some disruption if you leave, but that those left behind will adapt.   ( You have had to pick up the pieces when others left).   

It sounds like overall there are definite positives in your current role, so there is no urgency and you have the luxury of looking and only making a change if you find something that is clearly better for you right now.  Take your time. 

[Notwendy]

Yes there are positives to the job- enough for me to stay and look and give a longer notice but I also know that there are enough drawbacks to make me look at alternatives.

On one hand, maybe we do care too much but I also want to feel comfortable with a longer notice myself so that could also be about being authentic to who we are even if it could put us in a position of disadvantage compared to someone more inclined to care lass.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Someone we care a lot, and we do it anyway, because it's not always about caring. It's about priorities too and maybe we value being there for a coworker, but then maybe we value our family more and would find ourselves in a better position to care for them if we left.

I don't think you should be looking at it by comparing your choices to others, because truthfully, we have no idea why other people make the choices the make. We know what they tell us, but they rarely tell us everything.

It's about yourself, only yourself.

When I read comments mentioning how "it's because they care less", it makes me wonder of you aren't unconsciously trying to make yourself feel better about staying in a position that don't truly suit your need longer than you would have liked. Maybe you cared, I will trust your word on that, but wasn't a part of you also maybe afraid of the unknown?

You don't have to answer me or anything... But I did feel like turning the table here... To invite you to look at you, and only you, and not compare yourself to what you think was happening for others and why they made the choices they made... Only. You.

[Notwendy]

When I read comments mentioning how "it's because they care less", it makes me wonder of you aren't unconsciously trying to make yourself feel better about staying in a position that don't truly suit your need longer than you would have liked. Maybe you cared, I will trust your word on that, but wasn't a part of you also maybe afraid of the unknown?

These are good questions. I think the comment about "care less" was based on actions- prior behavior as well. The two co-workers left on very short notice- burned bridges and also one of them was someone who had done other things that were more self promoting and strategic- and a sort of "using others" so it wasn't based on just one decision.

I was also suprise that someone who I thought was a friend would disconnect from her work relationships. I don't think it's personal about me but her own decision about disconnecting from all of it. Still, we were friends outside work too, so it surprised me and prompted me to wonder if the relationship meant more to me than it actually was.

I don't think the decision to stay was based on fear of the unknown. It was a combination of things. I had mixed feelings about it. However, the experience did open my eyes to situations at work that have led me to consider other options which I am doing now.

[livednlearned]

I appreciate looking at this in terms of long-term life patterns, and thinking about choices the way Riv3rW0lf is framing them.

Notwendy, is there a recurring pattern of doing the *right* thing only to feel you were somehow not appreciated for your sacrifice?

To me that bigger picture is helpful since there is not a right answer. Burning bridges is a phrase that has a bias to it, as though people were not thinking of others, only themselves, but people do things for reasons, maybe for a different core group, like their family, or their long-term goals. We often don't know the full picture. They might be prioritizing someone else in their lives who needs them more.

For us, we can know why we make choices. I'm very intrigued by the idea that we generate anxiety about something we are fearful to change because it means moving out of a dynamic or narrative in which we are stuck, with feeling stuck feeling familiar and therefore not scary, even if it might be unpleasant.

There have been times in my life I behaved out of character because I was so overwhelmed by life events and felt unwilling to walk on eggshells. Those moments were gifts because they let me experience an alternate reality to how I typically go through life. Not only did nothing bad happen, things actually got better. I surprised people because I was clear about how I felt and what I wanted.

I think the takeaway I'm learning here from this thread is that if I find myself in a repeating role, where I feel victimized by others or wonder why me, or why me again? Then there is a choice I keep making that is not working for me.

My colleague situation is like that. I found myself wondering if I was a mark for people with bad boundaries. Or people who need a lot of emotional support at my expense. Something is happening early in a relationship that I seem to handle different than people who don't do what I do. I'm getting better at reconciling issues that pop up but I would like to not have them happen at all. I suspect, at least for me, that I am confusing "overly familiar" with "likable." Yet, when I think about walking back how familiar I allow people to be, I experience anxiety.

This anxiety seems to be an important messenger. I suspect it comes from a pattern as old as me, where I am afraid to change my habits because bad things could happen. And the truth is, bad things might happen. But not because of what I do or don't do -- there will always be uncertainty. The alternative is that I will not break the pattern of feeling inauthentic when people with bad boundaries run roughshod over me. I won't get to feel authentic, which at this point in my life feels like the whole point.

The choice whether to stay or go seems almost beside the point. What seems relevant is whether you find yourself paying a price for putting others' needs ahead of your own. If it's 60/40 that might be a livable ratio. But if 9/10 we are left holding the trash bag after everyone has left then there is a pattern there and all arrows point back to us and the choices we make.

[zachira]

Livednlearned has nailed describing whether people pleasing works or not. I gave up the people pleasing with many of my disordered relatives because it just led to them abusing me more because I am one of the family scapegoats. On the other hand, there are times when I perceive that it is best to be nice and end the interactions with people when I can or at least keep the relationships superficial for my own well being for if I were to demand any kind of emotional reciprocity in these relationships I would get abused. Some disordered people only exist for themselves and cannot handle the authenticity of another person because it does not fit with their reality of being the only person in the room.

[Notwendy]

Notwendy, is there a recurring pattern of doing the *right* thing only to feel you were somehow not appreciated for your sacrifice?

I think the takeaway I'm learning here from this thread is that if I find myself in a repeating role, where I feel victimized by others or wonder why me, or why me again? Then there is a choice I keep making that is not working for me.

My colleague situation is like that. I found myself wondering if I was a mark for people with bad boundaries. Or people who need a lot of emotional support at my expense.

The choice whether to stay or go seems almost beside the point. What seems relevant is whether you find yourself paying a price for putting others' needs ahead of your own. If it's 60/40 that might be a livable ratio. But if 9/10 we are left holding the trash bag after everyone has left then there is a pattern there and all arrows point back to us and the choices we make.

I think you have "hit the nail on the head". There is something about feeling I have to do the right thing and not being appreciated for it. I can see this in relation to my family and even now, being concerned about "doing the right thing" in regards to my mother. I think to sum it up- it's been a form of self affirmation for me while growing up in a situation where there wasn't affirmation at home. So knowing I did the ethical thing when being criticised and accused of whatever was a way of holding on to my own sense of reality.

Admittely, my job has been a source of affirmation. If I did a good job, there would be affirmation of that and this is a key issue here- with turn over at the administration level, doing a good job is not appropriately rewarded. I am not the only one who feels this way. Several people have left this situation. I just somehow think it took me longer to decide that too and I think it's in part because it takes me longer to figure out these situations due to the familiarity of being undervalued.

I do tend to be the "emotional fixer" in the work dynamics and the emotional support person but not to the extent that it's a negative. I keep a boundary on my personal life- it's strictly workplace dynamics. It's that this is a stregnth I can bring to the dynamics while someone else might be more technical and detail oriented. With different personalities in the mix, coherence is a value. I don't feel I do it to the point of resentment.

I don't feel exploited with the people I work with directly. I think we have all brought something to the table equally. Leaving on short notice would have impacted them the most. It's at the administrative level and has affected several people.

[beatricex]

Hi All,
I logged in hoping to find a thread that resonated with me, and there it was!
Thank YOU L&L and everyone else who has posted to this thread!

I am currently experiencing a lot of guilt because I have a coworker who I believe may be in crisis.  My old self, would be "johnny on the spot" as others have explained, overly nice, being that go to person they would have to talk to... this codependency of mine runs Deep, after all.  It is a trauma bond with my soul, unfortunately, I am me and I am only me if I'm being codependent.

I feel so out of sorts because I've been taking conscious purposeful efforts lately to "check in" with me.  How do I feel about my stepdaughter "disowning me."  How do I feel about my other adult stepdaughter "forgiving" me and saying to her Dad "whatever, I'm OVER it" (I am NOT over her passive aggressive behavior towards me though, so that's too bad!)  Forgiveness doesn't work like this, she doesn't just get to decide a text message I sent to her ex-husband at the beginning of COVID is not the mortal sin she originally thought it was. How do I feel about a coworker stomping all over my boundaries for the better part of 2 months?  How do I feel about another coworker who is likely in crisis?  And why do I keep "predicting" what's going to happen with her to my husband?

oy

These are tough things we are all working on!

b

 

[beatricex]

hi zachira,
I'm glad you are up.  I need to tape this to my forehead!  (I laughed inside when I read it for it reminds me of both my step daughters!) 

Some disordered people only exist for themselves and cannot handle the authenticity of another person because it does not fit with their reality of being the only person in the room


b

[beatricex]

Forgot to mention, I would never think to say this to my coworker in crisis, what if she attempted or committed suicide because she did Not have someone else to talk to??  I ghosted her instead.  yikes

"Hey, it sounds like you're going through something. Do you have someone you can talk to about this?" Meaning, someone other than me.

But no really, why am I not jumping in to rescue her?  What is different today about me?  What is better?  I guess that I came here to post about why I feel guilty for not being my old self, and to say that I'm taking care of me and that's my priority right now?  If so, amazing really....that is AMAZING

Yeah me

[for someone who has always put others' needs before mine, this is truly a milemarker]

Note:  I did reach out to our boss and tell him her resignation what "not because of anything he or I said to her"

Maybe I just swapped being codependent towards the disordered person for being codependent towards the less needy but affected guy?  hmmm

[Notwendy]

beatricex- I do this kind of thing too. I tend to be the one to jump in and smooth things over. Doing it less now- I think it's because we are more aware of the behavior, rather than assume it is our "normal" to do so?

Changing behavior takes some time and also we can fall back on doing it because we are used to that- but it's more like progress not perfection.

I agree- it wouldn't be desirable to lean too much to the other side and not step in ever. If someone is in obvious distress- yes, be of support- and that might mean encouraging them to see someone or get help. But we can be aware of when we are over doing it.

[livednlearned]

Maybe I just swapped being codependent towards the disordered person for being codependent towards the less needy but affected guy?

Did it feel like talking to him was at the expense of something else you wanted to do or cared about?

I suspect there is a shift in attachment styles, from anxious or avoidant to secure when we change codependent tendencies. Did you feel like you had to take care of him without evidence that he needed to be taken care of? Those are questions I would have for myself. I know I've done something similar, where I anticipate how someone feels and take care of them before checking assumptions that they need me. Someone once said to me that feeling awkward is how learning feels. Learning feels awkward. That might be a way of saying that changing codependent tendencies is bound to be awkward because we act in unnatural ways (for us) until the new habit feels more natural, and maybe one day effortless. My guilt often feels awkward when I feel it but don't act on it.

Compared to people who were born into families where they felt safe enough to develop a secure attachment I suspect I'll have to reflect on tricky interactions (for life?) with people and will feel tend to experience some degree of uncertainty because I don't have an inborn reflex to behave from a securely attached place.  

The colleague I've been having issues with has been a source of growth for me. Work/professional relationships can feel like pseudo family because we don't necessarily choose them. For me, this colleague is a hot stove. If I am in a group of 10 people, it seems like 2 or 3 will reach out and touch the stove and burn themselves. I used to be in that group.

With a lot of work and practice and reflection, I think I'm more likely to be in the group of 2-3 people who reaches to touch the stove then stops before getting burned (for the most part). That's progress for me.

Maybe there's another group of 2-3 who used to touch the stove and now they don't because they recognize the signs. That's where I'd like to be. And share what works to be that way. I'd say I'm about 7/10 on achieving this consistently. I don't really know what's preventing me from having a perfect record  

Then the last group of 2-3 -- I don't get to be in that group. They don't touch hot stoves, they don't get burned, they don't seem to understand what the problem is: Don't touch a hot stove! Or, some of them will recognize any scars I point to and express sympathy because they're caring people. But they won't really understand that my definition of safety is something I had to create for myself and carve it out one interaction at a time. They grew up feeling safe and that safety is like bedrock.

What sets me apart from this last group is that I have empathy for the first two groups and curiosity about the last.

I seem to gravitate to people who are in this 3rd group (no longer touch the stove 10/10 times)  because when I ask questions they get what it is I'm working through  

[beatricex]

Did it feel like talking to him was at the expense of something else you wanted to do or cared about? YES

I suspect there is a shift in attachment styles, from anxious or avoidant to secure when we change codependent tendencies. Did you feel like you had to take care of him without evidence that he needed to be taken care of?  YES

I am beating myself up a little because I envy that group that's saying "Duh, don't touch not stoves!"

I do think, however, it's somewhat cooler to be in the 10/10 group.  Hey, we have cool hot stove burns 

[beatricex]

 
I am proud of myself for recognizing it at least.  Thanks for the assist, Lived & Learned.


Just a quick update:  my coworker in crisis quit her job, yesterday was her last day.  I'm not sure how I feel about this yet.

I knew she was going to quit because my boss informed me at the beginning of the week.  I didn't reach out to her though.
Yesterday she sent me a quick message, "thank you for helping me...I am resigning due to health issues..."

The only thing I responded with was "OK take care of yourself and you're welcome"

It is one thing to come here and talk to folks about our struggles (we're all anonymous here).  It's another to openly talk about our mental health struggles at work.

Work is work afterall, we get paid to work at work.

I also felt it's not really my place to advise my coworker.  The reasons are complex, but one of the reasons is that I cannot see her, I'm not sitting across a table or cubicle from her.  She's in a different city than I am in.  I may not be able to see her situation over the phone and am probably not qualified and am thus not the best person to help her.

I truly feel like "helping" her in this instance might have looked like me saying as little as possible and just listening and maybe being a sounding board when she told me she might take a leave of absence. 

Glossing over the fact that she was not able to do her job, saying anything like "No, you were such a great worker" (she was not) or anything like that probably wouldn't have helped her either.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

I do feel a tad bit guilty.  but only a tad
 

[livednlearned]

I like the idea of time being like space, and that there is a limit to it, especially hours in a day and how we fill them.

The related analogy I use for myself is a cup. If I wake up tired after not sleeping well and my cup is not full, then that's my priority: To fill it. With the regular demands of normal daily life, that alone can be quite challenging. Supporting someone who fills my cup is more important than someone who drains it.

Between health issues, getting work done, running a household, investing time in my interests, being parents to 4 complex adult kids, protecting the health and well-being of my marriage, there often is not much left over if the goal is to fill that cup.

Your question is a good one because there is problem something here about guilt and people pleasing. Do you feel guilty for wishing her well and not doing more?

I don't think guilt is quite the same when you are raised to people please. Many people who responded to your coworker the way you did might not experience guilt. I'm certain I would feel guilt. The difference is that I'm no longer as trusting of that feeling (leads to touching hot stoves). Therapy has helped me realize I over index on guilt so if I feel it strongly, that is becoming an invitation to reflect versus an invitation to act.

[beatricex]

that was all well said L&L

Thank you for helping me with my touch of guilt

She thanked me for helping her (I don't feel I really did anything, I thought I was maybe triggering her because she told me she had an abusive Mom, and she is young enough to be my daughter)

Now I'm thanking you for helping me

 

Reflective instead of reactive will stick with me today....also the cup analogy.

I am currently sick and I need to manage my marriage too.  Also one adult stepdaughter who is hostile (we have 2 grandsons).  My dog needs me too.