Advice on starting a family

[wanderer11]

Hello, new user here but long time reader. 

My wife shows high functioning BPD traits suggested (only to me) by my therapist and (to me) by our couples therapist which have caused frequent (sometimes daily for weeks, other times with gaps of a few months) conflicts and arguments.

This generally follows a cycle of close intimacy followed by devaluation that recently (several times this year) escalated to serious discussions about divorce. When the cycle is over my wife seems to think that my behavior has changed and I am good again. From my perspective, and from working with my therapist I can't see any way my behavior is changing to influence this. I have been working hard on boundaries, validation etc. with my therapist and the couples therapist over the last couple of years. I'm not perfect, but I'm trying, and am willing to keep trying. Our couples therapist confirmed my effort and that I am not messing anything up myself.

The main issue I am facing now is that for over a year and a half my wife has wanted to start a family. I would like to start a family too, but not in situations where we are talking regularly about divorce, where we are having circular arguments without resolution and resulting in throwing things, character attacks etc. It is something I want, and it is something I would like soon, but it is important for me to have a solid relationship in order to have a child. My wife understands that this is logical, but wants to start a family regardless.

From my wife's perspective (late 20s) she desperately wants a child, and views the cause of the problems as being due to me not giving her a child. She has made recurrent ultimatums. Under pressure I have often caved and also given her a deadline, even though for me the important thing is the stability of the relationship, not the specific date. We have had a very turbulent couple of months, which is now followed by a period of relative peace, where I am "doing good" again.

 
What I would like some advice on if possible is, how long is enough of stability and peace for me to know if there is a change, and that it is safe to bring another life into our family? I get the feeling that 2-3 months is not enough, but how do I know what is enough?
 
Really appreciate any advice.

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[Pook075]

What I would like some advice on if possible is, how long is enough of stability and peace for me to know if there is a change, and that it is safe to bring another life into our family? I get the feeling that 2-3 months is not enough, but how do I know what is enough?
 
Really appreciate any advice.

Hello and welcome to the forums!  I'm very sorry that you're going through this and I have a feeling that the advice you'll receive will be all over the map.  I'll do my best to answer your question honestly without inserting my personal opinions.

The first thing that worries me is that you're receiving flawed medical advice from two therapists- it's not you, it's her.  While there's truth to that with BPD traits being present, a relationship is always between two people and part of the burden always rests on both people.  Regardless of who's fault something may be, your reactions play a big part in these scenarios.

I wonder, why have both therapists told you privately?  Do they feel like your wife is not ready to discuss a potential BPD diagnosis? 

The problem I see here is that you're asking a mental health question about timelines and recovery, even though your wife does not know or understand how her behavior affects the marriage.  Recovery is impossible without acceptance and it's not something that can just be willed away.  At the same time though, you should not be the one to suggest BPD being the culprit since it will come off as blame.  This is a question for your therapist since they're much more familiar with your specific situation.

What you can do, for now, is work on your personal communication skills by reading through the sticky tabs along the top of this page.  BPD comes down to communication skills to reinforce love and compassion before things go "off the rails".  Your wife has a high fear of abandonment and relies on her emotions more than the average person to dictate her outlook on life.  You help her by focusing on those emotions and reconfirming your love for her when things start going south.

For your question specifically, how long is the right time to wait before having a child, no one here can answer that better than you can personally.  It's like asking, "If I hear my dog barking outside, how long should I wait before walking to the mailbox?"  You'd need more of the story to even make an educated guess.  For example, if I told you my dog has a knack for spotting copperheads and will bark repeatedly until the snake slithers away...that would completely change your answer. 

This is a similar situation where we don't have enough insight in your relationship to provide a solid answer.

What I will say is this; a child will not "cure" BPD, it will only make the situation more complicated.  Your relationship and your wife's mental health should always come first, and I would urge you to continue therapy and work on your communication skills together.  When the time is right, you'll know it.

I hope that helps at least a little and again, welcome to the family!  Please feel free to ask additional questions since the community is here to help.

[wanderer11]

Thanks Pook. I really appreciate the quick reply.

The first thing that worries me is that you're receiving flawed medical advice from two therapists- it's not you, it's her.  While there's truth to that with BPD traits being present, a relationship is always between two people and part of the burden always rests on both people.  Regardless of who's fault something may be, your reactions play a big part in these scenarios.

I see that it might have come across that way in my post, but to clarify, neither therapist have said it's not me its her (I would have also been worried if they had said that). My therapist just helped me understand if my behaviors were changing and driving the cycle between all good and all bad in any major way. The couples therapist just confirmed that no specific behaviors on my behalf are "messing things up" on their own. Both have said that the responsibility for a relationship is shared between both parties and have helped me improve my reactions, but that it is the pattern of relating and connecting that is the problem.

I wonder, why have both therapists told you privately?  Do they feel like your wife is not ready to discuss a potential BPD diagnosis? 

My therapist can't diagnose someone else (and made that clear) they just said the behaviors fit the description of BPD and we have been using it to understand how I can improve validation and boundaries and other communication skills. The couples therapist said that a diagnosis does not always help people, and it is best to talk about specific behaviors rather than a label.

What you can do, for now, is work on your personal communication skills by reading through the sticky tabs along the top of this page.  BPD comes down to communication skills to reinforce love and compassion before things go "off the rails".  Your wife has a high fear of abandonment and relies on her emotions more than the average person to dictate her outlook on life.  You help her by focusing on those emotions and reconfirming your love for her when things start going south.

The materials on this site have been incredibly helpful for building new skills. I want to keep working on them, but it is difficult with the issue of having a child, which has been all consuming in our relationship for the last year. I think the point about reconfirming love is a good one and one I often forget in the heat of the moment.

I guess I am confused on what to do about this. In an ideal world we would work on these skills together until the time is right, as you say. But I'm not sure my wife will wait. I am in a situation where for me the stakes feel very high, and I don't want to be rushed into a decision about something so important as having a child.

I know that I am hurting her by not doing this, as it is a big form of rejection. I don't like that at all, but also I don't think it is right to have a child as things are currently, and I am scared that if they change temporarily they will revert when we have a child.

The confusion for me is that although I will know when the time is right for me, that might not work for my wife, so I'm looking for a way to build confidence that things have changed enough to take this big step together. I like the analogy you provided with the dog and the snake, are there any suggestions for questions I can ask myself to better understand my own story?

[SaltyDawg]

What I will say is this; a child will not "cure" BPD, it will only make the situation more complicated.  Your relationship and your wife's mental health should always come first, and I would urge you to continue therapy and work on your communication skills together.  When the time is right, you'll know it.

Welcome to the forums.

I completely agree with Pook that having a child or children will only make the situation worse with a disordered person.  Whatever issues you have now with your wife will only make it that much worse.

Read as much as you can.  Ask questions, and we will try and answer them.  Also, continue to see your therapist.

My wife has done at least 50 divorce threats, and she doesn't understand why I am so distant from her.  I am staying in my relationship for my children, religious reasons, among other reasons.

Most importantly, carve out time for yourself in the form of self-care.  For me self-care helped me keep my sanity on this rollercoaster ride of emotions.

Take care with self-care.

P.S.  You posted as I was writing, so a quick highlight...

But I'm not sure my wife will wait. I am in a situation where for me the stakes feel very high, and I don't want to be rushed into a decision about something so important as having a child.

I know that I am hurting her by not doing this, as it is a big form of rejection. I don't like that at all, but also I don't think it is right to have a child as things are currently, and I am scared that if they change temporarily they will revert when we have a child.

The confusion for me is that although I will know when the time is right for me, that might not work for my wife, so I'm looking for a way to build confidence that things have changed enough to take this big step together. I like the analogy you provided with the dog and the snake, are there any suggestions for questions I can ask myself to better understand my own story?

I will validate that the stakes are 'very high' perhaps even too high.

Having a child is at a minimum a 20 year commitment, and in this day and age, it could be as long as 30 years, and since BPD is both genetic and environmental (both components present in your relationship) your child could also be BPD, and then it is potentially a life-long commitment.  Are you ready to deal with the roller coaster of emotions for the rest of your life?

Also, having children will likely worsen the symptoms, at least it did with my wife.  My daughter had severe anorexia nervosa, my son is oppositional defiant and has 5/9 symptoms of BPD (including suicidal ideation) but is too early to diagnose for him.  I personally feel that both of these conditions may have had contributions from my wife's behaviors while I was out to sea (I didn't know about BPD until June of 2022).  My wife's grandfather likely had it too (a divorced serial womanizer) - frequently it is multi-generational.  Is it fair to bring a child into this world only to suffer the same or even worse fate than your dear wife?

The 'rejection' you speak of, is a form of 'abandonment', and pwBPD don't do well with this.  Talk to your therapist in depth, ponder these statements, especially as she is threatening divorce before children (my threats didn't come until after children, as children made the dynamic many times worse).

One final observation, you are a grown adult, and you have chosen to be in this relationship, any children you help bring into this world will not have this choice.  Is it fair to your potential children?

[Broken Record]

Hi wanderer,

One thing I’d say is if it doesn’t sit well with you, you need to trust your wise mind / gut - whatever you want to call it. BPD is a serious mental illness and hindsight is great. If I could go back 20 years and make different decisions knowing what I know now, sure I would.

At the end of the day, you at least have a leg up knowing now what you’re dealing with. Just know it won’t get that much better without changes on both your part in changing yourself and her also getting treated.

Its a tough spot you’re in and I don’t envy you but perhaps it might be best if you worked on an appropriate response / management strategy with a therapist who knows about her condition.

Not to say you’ll follow the same path but here’s a post I read in a similar spot with BPD wife wanting a child:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=324095.0;prev_next=next

Not sure what it is, perhaps the thought of a child helps alleviate abandonment fears.

[Pook075]

I guess I am confused on what to do about this. In an ideal world we would work on these skills together until the time is right, as you say. But I'm not sure my wife will wait. I am in a situation where for me the stakes feel very high, and I don't want to be rushed into a decision about something so important as having a child.

I know that I am hurting her by not doing this, as it is a big form of rejection. I don't like that at all, but also I don't think it is right to have a child as things are currently, and I am scared that if they change temporarily they will revert when we have a child.

That's a valid concern, so let's focus on that for a moment.  Again, a child cannot fix anything and I can tell you that women suffering from BPD can sometimes get hit hard with postpartum depression.  That was true in my ex-wife's case and she largely hid it from the world because she felt like nobody would understand.  Looking back, it breaks my heart that someone would suffer in silence.

So instead of talking out whether or not a baby is a good idea right now, let's focus on you.  Your intuition is to wait, and you should trust what your gut is telling you.  But at the same time, you need a strategy to be able to discuss that with your wife in a productive way.  Talk to your therapist about that specifically and come up with a game-plan.

Additionally, you'll learn about healthy boundaries on this site and how to communicate through those boundaries.  Have you thought about how you'd tell your wife that you're not ready for a child yet?  What you don't want to say is something like, "I'm going to have to see three months without verbal abuse to know it's the right time to move forward."  Very bad idea because it assigns blame and makes her the bad guy, the one with something wrong.

Instead, you want to focus on the positive angle- what can we do to move past this and grow closer together?  How can we communicate so we both feel like our feelings are validated?  It starts with you validating her concerns and inner fears, not necessarily the stuff she says in a bad moment, but the underlying fears that cause those emotions in the first place.  That's where the work has to happen to see real change.

Many incorrectly assume that when someone with mental health is spiraling, that's the time to take drastic action.  And that's true when they're a threat to themselves or others, but most of the "progress" comes when they're balanced and stable since they're more open to strengthening the relationship.  In other words, arguing when she's in a mood will never yield the results you're seeking.  So your job is to provide love and reassurance in those moments to get her back to her baseline where productive conversations can take place.  Make sense?

I'll admit, a BPD relationship is not easy and its certainly not for everyone.  There are always challenges, but I am a success story with my BPD daughter.  We have a great relationship today because we were able to find common ground of trust and compassion.  With my ex wife, it's still a work in progress, but we no longer argue because she knows that I have her best interests at heart.  Our marriage has ultimately ended though because she can't forgive and let go of the past.

I brought that up to say that there is hope, there is a redemption story here if you're willing to put in the work.  Your spouse needs to meet you halfway though and follow your lead, which takes considerable patience and commitment on your end.  It will not always be fair and you will make mistakes, but that's okay.  You can get there with time.

[Notwendy]

Adult child of an elderly BPD mother here ---

I agree with the statement that a certain time period is not an accurate idea. BPD can fluctuate over time. It's a spectrum and it can vary. The question of when to start a family is so personal that nobody can answer that. As to how much or little having a BPD parent has an impact on a child, that can vary too. Children will also have to make their own way in their relationship with a BPD parent.

Your wife wants a child- that is a normal wish for a lot of people. Chilren are a source of joy but they can not "fix" BPD. Each child is an individual with their own purpose in this world. If your wife thinks having a child is going to be the solution to her feelings of unhappiness, chances are, she will be disappointed.

One aspect of my mother with BPD is that she perceives herself as a victim of external "reasons" for her internal discomfort and also fixates on an external "solution" that she must have because that is going to be the solution for her problems and she will be very persistant in her need for that. Once the "solution" has been provided, and she sees that it failed to be a long term resolution for her feelings, she then seeks out another one. No external "solution" has been effective for long.

So, at the moment, it's a child and you are the barrier to her happiness. That said- if one spouse wants a child and the other one does not, this is a major marital issue even without BPD.

I would consider the relationship as its own entity. If you are concerned about your wife being a safe and nurturing mother for your children, and you want children, then that is a relationship issue not about the child. You are the one who chose this person to be your wife.

As to what effect a mother with BPD has on a child? That varies as well. It includes all the factors that are both protective and harmful to a child and also the child's own resilience and genetic make up and temperament. I think it's fair to say that it does have an effect to some extent, but how much, one can not predict. Aspects in favor of the child include economics- can you afford household help and child care? Are you willing to take on more of the parenting than you would expect? Do you have other support systems like family who could help out and take the child to their house if your wife is having a difficult time?

I would take the idea of how long to wait out of the consideration. BPD behaviors can vary at times. If someone with BPD is willing to work with a therapist individually and to do the work, there is a possibilty they can make improvements in their behaviors. This is not the same as marital therapy. You can work on your part in the relationship but she would have to be willing to work on hers for her to impact her own thinking and feelings related to BPD. 

[wanderer11]

Thank you SaltyDawg for sharing your thoughts and experience.

I will validate that the stakes are 'very high' perhaps even too high.

Having a child is at a minimum a 20 year commitment, and in this day and age, it could be as long as 30 years, and since BPD is both genetic and environmental (both components present in your relationship) your child could also be BPD, and then it is potentially a life-long commitment.  Are you ready to deal with the roller coaster of emotions for the rest of your life?

I understand how after the divorce threats you are feeling distant. I find it harder to bounce back emotionally each time. As for dealing with the roller coaster of emotions, I'm still searching for an answer to that myself. Some of my skills of validation are getting better, and I'm also improving at getting past my own hang-ups on having difficult emotional conversations. So I think I'm still discovering that myself.

One final observation, you are a grown adult, and you have chosen to be in this relationship, any children you help bring into this world will not have this choice.  Is it fair to your potential children?

Currently it is not fair to our potential children, I think that is clear to me. Our couples T even said that in our recent session.

What is less clear is that if things get better for a few months and my wife makes an ultimatum about having a child again (which she says now she is serious about sticking with), how will I know if that is enough to see if it is real work, or just a pause in the usual cycle of conflict. My wife is torn as the way she sees things is that she loves me, but I have put off having the child for a couple of years already (due to the conflict in the relationship), and that is a deal-breaker for her. This then causes her to lash out with hurt, creating more conflict and instability, and perpetuating the cycle.

[wanderer11]

One thing I’d say is if it doesn’t sit well with you, you need to trust your wise mind / gut - whatever you want to call it. BPD is a serious mental illness and hindsight is great. If I could go back 20 years and make different decisions knowing what I know now, sure I would.

Thanks Broken Record, that's really useful guidance, my gut is currently telling me something is off. I've tried to communicate this to my wife that I need her help to help to work as a team so I can change this signal from my gut, so we can get quicker to the goal of having a family.

At the end of the day, you at least have a leg up knowing now what you’re dealing with. Just know it won’t get that much better without changes on both your part in changing yourself and her also getting treated.

I'm going to individual therapy and working on validation, openness, discussing feelings, but my wife stopped many months ago. She considers herself changed. She is open to discussing things to work on with the couples T (not individually), I suggested better control over how she expresses difficult emotions, and being able to apologize. Do you think there are any good suggestions that could help this situation?

Not sure what it is, perhaps the thought of a child helps alleviate abandonment fears.

Yeah, I can definitely see how this is the case, although from what I've read those fears don't go away after having a child, otherwise I would be jumping straight on that solution :D !!

[wanderer11]

That's a valid concern, so let's focus on that for a moment.  Again, a child cannot fix anything and I can tell you that women suffering from BPD can sometimes get hit hard with postpartum depression.  That was true in my ex-wife's case and she largely hid it from the world because she felt like nobody would understand.  Looking back, it breaks my heart that someone would suffer in silence.

So instead of talking out whether or not a baby is a good idea right now, let's focus on you.  Your intuition is to wait, and you should trust what your gut is telling you.  But at the same time, you need a strategy to be able to discuss that with your wife in a productive way.  Talk to your therapist about that specifically and come up with a game-plan.

I'm struggling with this bit.

My wife is continually setting deadlines, which I then can't meet due to the relationship still being volatile. She misinterprets the couples T saying it is good to set a deadline for "discussing" the topic and how the relationship is for "it is good to set an ultimatum to have a child". We have one of these approaching. I have tried to tell her that for me this is something I want to work on together, and that it is not about a specific date, but how I feel about having a child and my concerns. Unfortunately she hears rejection that I won't meet the deadline, and would like to know so she can not waste any more of our time.

Additionally, you'll learn about healthy boundaries on this site and how to communicate through those boundaries.  Have you thought about how you'd tell your wife that you're not ready for a child yet?  What you don't want to say is something like, "I'm going to have to see three months without verbal abuse to know it's the right time to move forward."  Very bad idea because it assigns blame and makes her the bad guy, the one with something wrong.

Instead, you want to focus on the positive angle- what can we do to move past this and grow closer together?  How can we communicate so we both feel like our feelings are validated?  It starts with you validating her concerns and inner fears, not necessarily the stuff she says in a bad moment, but the underlying fears that cause those emotions in the first place.  That's where the work has to happen to see real change.

I would definitely have said that in the past. Thanks for pointing that out as its important to remember . I need to work on the validating concerns and fears more. I think I struggle at that as when I try, it always comes back to the action of rejection.

Many incorrectly assume that when someone with mental health is spiraling, that's the time to take drastic action.  And that's true when they're a threat to themselves or others, but most of the "progress" comes when they're balanced and stable since they're more open to strengthening the relationship.  In other words, arguing when she's in a mood will never yield the results you're seeking.  So your job is to provide love and reassurance in those moments to get her back to her baseline where productive conversations can take place.  Make sense?

Makes sense. That was a really useful and timely piece of advice. Thanks!

I brought that up to say that there is hope, there is a redemption story here if you're willing to put in the work.  Your spouse needs to meet you halfway though and follow your lead, which takes considerable patience and commitment on your end.  It will not always be fair and you will make mistakes, but that's okay.  You can get there with time.

Its great to have that other perspective and very encouraging. That is what I hope, but unfortunately I don't feel like time is on my side how things are currently.

[wanderer11]

Hey Notwendy, thanks for the perspective of a child of a BPD mother.

Your wife wants a child- that is a normal wish for a lot of people. Chilren are a source of joy but they can not "fix" BPD. Each child is an individual with their own purpose in this world. If your wife thinks having a child is going to be the solution to her feelings of unhappiness, chances are, she will be disappointed.

One aspect of my mother with BPD is that she perceives herself as a victim of external "reasons" for her internal discomfort and also fixates on an external "solution" that she must have because that is going to be the solution for her problems and she will be very persistant in her need for that. Once the "solution" has been provided, and she sees that it failed to be a long term resolution for her feelings, she then seeks out another one. No external "solution" has been effective for long.

We've discussed this together and that is the case, she believes that her feelings of unhappiness will be solved by the child. I have seen other sources of unhappiness, but to her they are all linked to the child.

So, at the moment, it's a child and you are the barrier to her happiness. That said- if one spouse wants a child and the other one does not, this is a major marital issue even without BPD.

That's true, and something I'm trying to remember throughout all this, this is a genuine, important marital issue, and I respect why she is hurt. Its difficult for me to even unpack my own feelings on this complex issue in the face of constant deadlines and ultimatums.

I would consider the relationship as its own entity. If you are concerned about your wife being a safe and nurturing mother for your children, and you want children, then that is a relationship issue not about the child. You are the one who chose this person to be your wife.

I'm really interested as to what you mean by this, can you please expand?

I would take the idea of how long to wait out of the consideration. BPD behaviors can vary at times. If someone with BPD is willing to work with a therapist individually and to do the work, there is a possibilty they can make improvements in their behaviors. This is not the same as marital therapy. You can work on your part in the relationship but she would have to be willing to work on hers for her to impact her own thinking and feelings related to BPD. 

I guess there is absolutely nothing a can or should do about this? She is not interested in going back to individual therapy.

[Broken Record]

Hi wanderer,

If shes open to couples therapy, perhaps thats your best bet to hash it out there. See how that goes and any progress comes in the relationship over a reasonable period. If not, then you may have your answer as to whether you want to progress having a child together or not.

Is age / biological clock / other life goals (study, moving, job etc) a factor in the decision? Those may play a role in how long you want to try couples counselling for.

[Notwendy]

I can expand on this- you and she have your own relationship. The child will have their own relationship with you and with her. This will change over time as the child matures and also with the family dynamics. So it's your relationship with your wife that is first - and important. This is more about the two of you than about a possible child at this time.

I would encourage you to read up on the Karpman triangle dynamics. In my family, my mother takes victim perspective. My father (who is now deceased, my mother is elderly) was the rescuer and enabler. This created a strong bond between them. Two people are less in conflict with each other when they are bonded together against a common "persecutor". Whenever there was some external reason or want for my mother that was the focus of her unhappy feelings and my father would step in to rescue her by providing it or rescuing her from it.

The tendency for parents with a PD is for the child to meet their needs. In actuality it's the parent's responsibility to meet the child's needs but that may not be how the disordered parent perceives the child. But just as an external factor isn't the resolution for a pwBPD's emotional issues, neither can a child do that for them.

How much having a parent with BPD impacts a child is hard to predict. It depends on so many factors including the spectrum of BPD and how that impacts relationships. I don't think my childhood with a BPD mother was all bad or all good- because very few people are all bad or all good. Some mothers with BPD can be nurturing and others can not. My mother is not, but my father was able to hire child care and he took on a lot of the parenting.

I am focusing more on your relationship with your wife as being a key factor. When my parents were first married, little was known about BPD. Growing up I perceived my mother as the "one with the problem" and my father as the "good guy victim" of her behavior. Now, I am more aware that the dynamics between them were a factor of both He was her enabler. Despite what appeared to be a difficult marriage, this dynamic was a bond between them. There seemed to always be someone or something else that was the "cause" of the problem and Dad would align with BPD mother. He may have done things differently if information and support about BPD was available to him when they were first married but this did not become available until later and their dynamics were established.

My best advice for you is to have your own individual therapy. This may not make sense since your wife is the one "with the problem" but I think these relationships are complicated and you learning skills and having the support of a therapist for yourself is helpful. Even if your wife needs it, the person most likely to respond to therapy is the one who is self aware and motivated to work with it. That is you. If your wife is disordered, you will be the key factor that determines the well being of your child. As they say on an airplane- put your oxygen mask on first.

As for a possible child, consider your own values. If you don't want to try for one at the moment, or if you feel your wife is not a safe parent for that child- that is a marital issue.

[wanderer11]

If shes open to couples therapy, perhaps thats your best bet to hash it out there. See how that goes and any progress comes in the relationship over a reasonable period. If not, then you may have your answer as to whether you want to progress having a child together or not.

We have been doing couples therapy for just over a year now. The couples therapist also seems confused that one week things are good and then the next my wife would like out of the relationship. I'm not sure its helping massively, but may have helped in some ways for us to improve some communication skills together.

Is age / biological clock / other life goals (study, moving, job etc) a factor in the decision? Those may play a role in how long you want to try couples counselling for.

I understand that age is often an issue (more for women than men), and it would be very easy for me to say late 20s is still young, but I know that's highly personal. I'm having difficulties deciding what a reasonable period is... For me we would keep working on this until we get out of this negative cycle, because I love her dearly and see also so many good qualities in her, but I understand that arrangement probably wont work both ways (and without individual work on both sides), so I´m trying to understand what a good compromise is.

[wanderer11]

I can expand on this- you and she have your own relationship. The child will have their own relationship with you and with her. This will change over time as the child matures and also with the family dynamics. So it's your relationship with your wife that is first - and important. This is more about the two of you than about a possible child at this time.

I would encourage you to read up on the Karpman triangle dynamics. In my family, my mother takes victim perspective. My father (who is now deceased, my mother is elderly) was the rescuer and enabler. This created a strong bond between them. Two people are less in conflict with each other when they are bonded together against a common "persecutor". Whenever there was some external reason or want for my mother that was the focus of her unhappy feelings and my father would step in to rescue her by providing it or rescuing her from it.

Thank you for the advice, i'll definitely read into the Karpman triangle dynamics. I can see in some ways how I have played both the victim ("look how terribly i´m treated") and rescuer ("what can i do to make you happy again") role in the past. I'm doing much better at avoiding playing the victim now (a tendency I also inherited) , but I have difficulty stepping out of the rescuer role without being cold or not supportive. I feel like as a husband I should be doing something to help my wife, and if I don't bond against the common persecutor my wife can feel abandoned and can lash out. I guess I need to understand this a bit better and work on it.

The tendency for parents with a PD is for the child to meet their needs. In actuality it's the parent's responsibility to meet the child's needs but that may not be how the disordered parent perceives the child. But just as an external factor isn't the resolution for a pwBPD's emotional issues, neither can a child do that for them.

I can definitely see this, but my wife has been so hurt about the rejection I don't think she can.

As for a possible child, consider your own values. If you don't want to try for one at the moment, or if you feel your wife is not a safe parent for that child- that is a marital issue.

I don´t want to try for one at the moment, because i'm scared that the relationship will end as our issues will probably get worse with a child. I don´t want that for myself, my wife or the child.

I'm confused as to what to realistically expect here, I asked this to the couples T in a private session and she said that in some cases these issues can be worked on so that there are only emotional blow ups once every couple of years which gave me some hope.

I just really wish she could give us some time (not just a month or two) without ultimatums and divorce threats to seriously work on the relationship and build a strong foundation for the future...

[Notwendy]

I'm confused as to what to realistically expect here, I asked this to the couples T in a private session and she said that in some cases these issues can be worked on so that there are only emotional blow ups once every couple of years which gave me some hope.

I just really wish she could give us some time (not just a month or two) without ultimatums and divorce threats to seriously work on the relationship and build a strong foundation for the future...

Personally from what I have experienced I do not see how your T can make such a statement- to get the outbursts down to every couple of years through marital T. Maybe possibly through your wife working with individual T herself but even so, BPD is very variable.

I have an elderly severely BPD mother for whom no therapy has worked. I have not ever observed a time where she wasn't having some kind of issue with her relationships and dysregulations. I will give some slack to this knowing that BPD treatment was not available in her younger years but I don't know if that would have made a difference due to her inability to see that she has any part in her behavior. It's always something or someone else's fault. She has no motivation to work with a T because she doesn't believe she has any issues.

Someone with less severe BPD who is willing to work with a T on themselves might have a different outcome.

Also, every person has life events that are changes. Even good ones like marriage, the birth of a child- these are changes and changes are stressors. BPD behaviors are disordered but they are how pwBPD cope so there have been times of relative calm and times when her behaviors escalated. Not a period where all is relatively calmer for the long run.

I think this is a tough situation because what your wife wants is very compelling want for someone. PwBPD want what anyone else would want. I think you are also wise to consider what would be best for the child as the child's well being depends on the parents.

[SaltyDawg]

What is less clear is that if things get better for a few months and my wife makes an ultimatum about having a child again (which she says now she is serious about sticking with), how will I know if that is enough to see if it is real work, or just a pause in the usual cycle of conflict. My wife is torn as the way she sees things is that she loves me, but I have put off having the child for a couple of years already (due to the conflict in the relationship), and that is a deal-breaker for her. This then causes her to lash out with hurt, creating more conflict and instability, and perpetuating the cycle.

Ultimatums are not healthy.  If you are on the receiving end of these, this is a topic that should be discussed at length with your couple's therapist.  Same thing with the divorce threats, these too should be addressed with the couple's therapist.

I know this is the bettering board, and my relationship is better.  What I am about to say is very dangerous (it could back-fire and you would wind up separated and/or divorced), but it shifted emotional control from my wife to me.  For the last two divorce threats, I called my wife's bluff.

She said she wanted me to move out and leave her the house and children.  I said, "I don't mind if you want to separate; however, I am staying right here.  If you want to be separate, I have no issue with you leaving the children with me at our home, and you move out."  I did this in front of our couple's therapist after my wife initiated it.  I had a reasonable idea that she was bluffing, since previously a different couple's therapist convinced her I was going to leave her, and she begged me to stay (this is after 40+ divorce threats) - so I called her bluff.  I do not recommend doing this yourself, unless you had some other similar indication that your wife is bluffing.  You don't want to plant the emotional seed that you are going to do this either.

With regards to your private session.  I think your couple's T is not in touch with reality if your wife really has BPD.  I know my couple's T has stated she doesn't think my wife has BPD, and things will be getting better and has said similar things.  I think it is along the lines of 'fake it till you make it' which is dangerous thinking. 

For me, I think our couple's T finally realizes that there is BPD in the dynamic; however, the couple's T's job is to get you guys to communicate, that will often mean that the T will say stuff that will validate something your wife says that you know is invalid, this is damaging and counter-productive.  So, I wind up doing about 90% damage control, and about 10% therapy in couple's therapy.  I highlight the symptoms and then like a broken record go over these symptoms over and over again as they re-occur.

My wife's symptoms have improved about 90%, but the 10% that remain are still very damaging, and she cannot understand why I or the children treat her like other moms.

The criteria for remission of BPD is 2 years of 2 or fewer symptoms.  The criteria for initial remission is fewer than 2 symptoms for 2 months.  I am using the 2 year criteria for my own relationship with my wife for getting better (she doesn't know the specifics, and is getting extremely frustrated after having made the following improvements:

I will go over two of the more damaging symptoms that have changed in my wife's dynamic (I plan on making a multi-post post going into the specifics later on this month)

Borderline rage - irrational rage that lasted anywhere from 1-7 hours where she yells only inches away from my face.  This has been in remission since December 2022 attributable to the inappropriate display of anger symptoms.

Emotional dysregulation (a.k.a. splitting - all black or all white thinking) - This used to occur up to twice per day, it has been reduced to a few times per month.  Often attributable to the mood swing symptom.  Shifting from white to black is also the idealization devaluing symptom as well.  Now it is less severe, no longer accompanied by rage, but takes a lot longer to return to a regulated state, up to 48 hours in the case of my wife, it used to be up to 7 hours.  It is now less intense, but it is also substantially longer in duration - this particular change is personal observation only, I have not read this anywhere, but it is consistent with the mood swing symptom of hours or days.

With couple's T, you cannot afford to be passive and have your wife profess her feelings distorted (a.k.a. false) narrative without being challenged, I did for 3 years and it didn't work - I changed by pushing back on my wife's distorted narrative just over a year ago, and there has been significant improvement.  You need to delicately shine a light on the specific behavior (that is described by a specific symptom or symptoms, and let the couple's T help you navigate on how to address the specific behavior being highlighted).

I mentioned the 2 year criteria for remission, so you might want to consider to use that same criteria for yourself before you will consider having children with her.  I am a betting man, and I give it 99% chance the relationship will get worse when children enter the dynamic - it did for me, and it did for most of the others here at bpdfamily.com, just read the other posts on this board, and the other boards too.  Having children, before she is in full remission of her BPD symptoms, will make the dynamic much more tenuous by several orders of magnitude.

This is a very stressful time for you, so be sure to do self-care for yourself.

[Cat Familiar]

Like Notwendy, I grew up with a BPD mother. She could be very loving at times, then scary and hateful. My father was calm and reliable, until she pushed him to his limits, but then he still held it together, even though I could see how difficult it was for him. Ultimately he retreated into his own world and focused upon his own interests, as the distance between he and my mother grew.

As an only child, I became the “identified patient” of the family. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/making-the-whole-beautiful/202202/how-does-someone-become-familys-identified-patient

My mother projected upon me all sorts of her own issues, and as a young child, I believed her. Not only was this focus about psychological problems, it also became about physical issues. The slightest sniffle would prompt her to take me to the doctor and demand antibiotics, which were frequently dispensed without rhyme or reason in those days. Then, rather than finish the course of antibiotics, after a couple of days when I was symptom-free, she would take me off them. You can imagine what that did on a repeated basis to my overall health. I wouldn’t say it was Munchausen syndrome by proxy, but it came close to that.

Another issue that I needed to overcome was her skewed perception of other people and how to socialize with them. I learned some very maladaptive patterns owing to the fact that she couldn’t model healthy behaviors that she didn’t have or understand.

Even as a young child, I knew there was something not right about my mother. I used to watch tv shows about families and studied them closely to see how “normal” mothers acted.

It wasn’t until high school and then my first years of college that I realized that I had to *learn how to be human* because that wasn’t something I learned from my family. I read everything I could find in the Psychology section of the library trying to figure out what was *wrong* with me and my family.

In college I was able to get free counseling and availed myself of it, trying to learn remedial social skills that I’d never learned at home. Then…I married my first husband, a serial cheater, drug abuser, and criminal, who wore down my fragile self esteem and physically abused me.

I got out of that marriage finally after many years. Then I spent tens of thousands of dollars on therapy. And guess what…I married another BPD spouse. Only this one is nice, responsible, and has good values…though still BPD.

Perhaps I’m a *worst case* example of a child from a BPD marriage. But I just wanted to share my story with you. There’s a lot to consider when you think about having a child with a BPD partner.

[Notwendy]

I think it's fair to say that having a parent with BPD will affect a child in some way. BPD affects relationships and that's a relationship too. How it does will probably vary.

I still will maintain that the issue is a marital one, not about whether or not to have a child, but wanting a child is one of those big issues that isn't easily resolved with compromise. Especially if the reason for the hesitation is that the spouse is not a stable parent for the child.

Your main problem is that, if you want a child, you are not married to a woman who you feel will be a safe mother for that child. Do you give in to please her and put the child at risk, or do you protect the potential future child and face her reaction to that?

That question isn't about whether or not to have a child, it's about you and your wife. Even if there is a child, that situation may come up. What will you do if your wife is angry at your child and starts raging at them?

These situations raise some difficult questions about your marriage because that is the foundational relationship in a family.

[wanderer11]

Hello All,

I realise I went off the grid for a while, so here is an update, and also another thank you for the support and advice.

Since the last messages we have made what seems to be progress, with a different feel to the calm periods in the past.

We were asked shortly after my last message by our couples therapist if we wanted to give a go at committing to the relationship with both feet in, no divorce talk, with compassion and with love, as our couples T had had also enough of the constant in and out.

We both committed to this. We also committed to looking at ourselves, and not what we wanted to change about each other. Our own accountability. I said I would take responsibility for my tendency to shut down or take things personally too quickly. My wife said she would take responsibility for her “black and white thinking”. Her words, not mine or the therapists.

Since, things have been different. The advice from all of you was invaluable. In particularly the advice from Pook about the importance of showing love and compassion when things are going off the rails. This was a big shift in mentallity for me.

We have had one occasion in nearly two months which I would count as beyond “Normal Marital Hatred” ;), to be honest I feel more connected and secure in this relationship than I have in a long time. There have also been challenges for us in terms of health and misfortune in this time to navigate.

Part of me is afraid that this is temporary, but the willingness to discuss things as a couple in a calm way, and take on board feedback from each other is a new dynamic. I also feel like I have a better understanding of how I have contributed to the dynamic in the past. My wife has also talked openly about her challenges in controlling her responses to strong emotions and need to do better.

I’m now getting more positive feelings about starting a family together, even if two years of problems is difficult to erase, and it has only been two months. Is this a mistake, am I getting carried away?

[Cat Familiar]

I’m now getting more positive feelings about starting a family together, even if two years of problems is difficult to erase, and it has only been two months. Is this a mistake, am I getting carried away?

Two months of relative stability is commendable, but also a very brief duration. If your wife is only in her late 20s, there’s lots of time left on the biological clock.

[kells76]

Hey wanderer11, thanks for the update -- it's great to hear that you and your W are having some solid times and are both in couples therapy.

I’m now getting more positive feelings about starting a family together, even if two years of problems is difficult to erase, and it has only been two months. Is this a mistake, am I getting carried away?

I think having the feelings isn't a mistake -- you feel what you feel, and it makes a lot of sense that you would feel relief, and hope, and positivity, now that things are going so much better than in the past. Hoping for a better future and a baby -- that's a wonderful thing.

Like Cat mentioned, if your W is late 20s, you have more like "years" vs "months" to make a decision. So, there isn't really a rush. Maybe you can pause and sit with those good feelings and monitor them over the next few days/weeks/months? Maybe journal about those feelings, see if they stay the same or change at all?

I'm also wondering if you've kind of answered your own question in the past:

What I would like some advice on if possible is, how long is enough of stability and peace for me to know if there is a change, and that it is safe to bring another life into our family? I get the feeling that 2-3 months is not enough, but how do I know what is enough?

I just really wish she could give us some time (not just a month or two) without ultimatums and divorce threats to seriously work on the relationship and build a strong foundation for the future...

So "past you" had a sense that a couple of months might not be a long enough track record to make big decisions 

Has your W raised the topic lately?

Do you think it could help to ask your couples T to help you guys come up with a timeline that would demonstrate you both (team effort, not singling out either one of you) are stable enough to try for a baby?

[SaltyDawg]

I agree with kells; however, based on my own personal experiences I will add a different perspective...

It has only been a short month or two of this change, I personally feel that you should wait a while, at least a year, perhaps 2 years before making a decision of starting a family again.  Bringing a child into the dynamic is a real stressor, and borderlines do not deal with stress well.  Unless your wife is older than 35, you can afford to wait to make sure that her change is a permanent one and not an emotional mask like mine did for 2 years and 5 months (exceeded textbook maximum by 5 months). 

While you are waiting for the time to be 'right', take the opportunity to reconnect to your wife and solidify your relationship with her.  Children are expensive, so use this opportunity to advance your savings to make sure you can afford them.  Children are also temporary, and have a mind of their own, some will leave as soon as they turn 18, others will want to stick around into their 30's and beyond - it would seem that I have one of each.

Mine did the 'love bombing' thing until we found out we were pregnant, so I feel as though I was duped, even though the love bombing felt so real - and it probably was, it is those darn mood swings that can be so emotionally damaging.

Take your time, enjoy the growth, do more growth, before you decide to grow your family.

Take care with self-care.

SD

[Notwendy]

I'm going to add something from observation and also experience.

Change takes time and it isn't an instant "all is good now".  From my own experience not with working on BPD but on enabling/co-dependent behavior and change takes time. It's good that you see improvement but consistent improvement is better seen looking back over time. This took a lot of self work and accountability. It was sometimes two steps forward and one step backwards but over time, one sees progress.

There needs to be a component of internal motivation.
My motivation was for me- not for anyone else or any kind of external reward. I don't have BPD so I can't speak for that angle but in general- there needs to be internal motivation. It's OK to have external motivation too- for any goal- such as losing weight to fit into a dress for a special occasion, or saving for a vacation. However if it's only externally motivated, once the goal is achieved, the motivation is gone. If one is losing weight to look good at an occasion, then there's no reason to continue to try. If the motivation is to loose weight to feel better and be healthy- there's a greater chance of long term change.

Many people can hold it together when very motivated. My BPD mother can do that. She can hold it together in public, act amazing, and then become another person when she's not in front of people. That doesn't mean she's faking or doing this on purpose. It takes effort to hold it together and if motivated, she will do it. Kids do this too- they may clean the playroom for the promise of a toy. Younger kids need a more immediate reward. When we are more mature, we clean the house for more internal reasons- we want it clean, it's better to have a clean house for mental and physical health.

So with my BPD mother, who has less mature emotional regulation, she wants more immediate gratification.

So here is the question for you. What is motivating your wife? Does she want to improve her behavior in order to be a better mother, or for a better marriage- and for her own well being? Or does she want a baby? Because if she mainly wants a baby- once she becomes pregnant- and that goal is met- will she still be motivated?

I understand you don't want to have her feel she's being strung along for an indefinite amount of time. You know her best- and can assess the situation for yourself.

[wanderer11]

Since the last message things have gone back off track. During a big holiday my wife asked if we could start immediately for a child. I told her how excited I am about how things are going, and said that it has been on my mind more and more, and I want to talk more about it, but also understand how to know together when is the right time with the work we are doing.

It went down poorly, and ultimately resulted in hours of tears, calls to her friends and saying that if I don’t have a child now, the marriage will have to end. For several hours I managed to stay calm and supportive and understanding, but eventually after the talk of divorce I ended up very upset myself. In my wife’s eyes she has limited years to have a big family, she has been asking for over 2 years and her advice from her friends is to break up. It’s hard for me not to feel like the bad guy here. I’m reassuring her that I am all in on this relationship and committed to being the best husband I can, and that having a family is important to me.

I think now that I am back to ‘bad’, and things have got very intense again, even last night I was told that having unprotected sex would make my sick stomach better.

I’m disappointed that things have gone like this. I’m hopeful that this is just a part of the process and things will get back on track again. I’m surprised about how the efforts I have made to improve my part of the relationship have been discounted in a day. The couples T requested individual sessions as soon as we get back, I’m not sure why.

Thanks for all of your advice.

[wanderer11]

So here is the question for you. What is motivating your wife? Does she want to improve her behavior in order to be a better mother, or for a better marriage- and for her own well being? Or does she want a baby? Because if she mainly wants a baby- once she becomes pregnant- and that goal is met- will she still be motivated?

I understand you don't want to have her feel she's being strung along for an indefinite amount of time. You know her best- and can assess the situation for yourself.

This is a difficult question for me to answer, but I feel like her motivations are genuine, she does want a better marriage, she does want to be a better mother, but all that goes out of the window when she feels as she does now. In some ways the changes have been permanent, there are no personal attacks or criticisms any more, however the talk of divorce again doesn’t feel very healthy and hurts a lot even if not personal.

I feel like unfortunately her patience is running out, and she feels like she is being strung along for an indefinite amount of time. I’m not sure how I can handle this, any advice?

[Notwendy]

I can handle this, any advice?

With honesty. While no two people are alike, some differences may make people incompatible. 

We can choose our deal breakers- without judgement. They aren't all the same for everyone. They are personal.

These aren't trivial things- we don't break up relationships over who doesn't put the toothpaste cap on or who leaves their shoes in the living room floor.  Core values are those that are so essential to us that we would feel we betrayed ourselves if we didn't hold on to them.

One is religion. If someone wants to have a marriage and family where their religion is practiced, and the other wants a marriage and family in a different religion- the two are not compatible. Neither is wrong to want what they want- they just want different things that they can not compromise on.

If someone wants to have children, this is a significant core want. It may not be connected to their ability to raise a child or expectations of what that would be like. They can still want this.

You are the one who is hesitant. The question is for you is why. Is this the person you wish to be the mother of your children?

Again, I think this is a relationship question. The child issue is raising that question.

[wanderer11]

Thanks notwendy,

I appreciate the honest perspective. It is something I should think about properly.

At the moment I am lost, confused and scared. I’m not able to think clearly. I don’t deal well when put in now or divorce situations, maybe something I should talk about with my own T. I feel like a rabbit caught in the headlights.

[Cat Familiar]

At the moment I am lost, confused and scared. I’m not able to think clearly. I don’t deal well when put in now or divorce situations, maybe something I should talk about with my own T. I feel like a rabbit caught in the headlights.

Definitely this is good material to talk about with your therapist. Being lost, confused, and scared is no way to begin parenthood. That your wife is giving you an ultimatum: make a baby now or divorce—this is a profound topic to explore your feelings about being put in this position…and how you feel about someone who would create this ultimatum.

[Notwendy]

I think that is an excellent idea- to put baby making plans on hold while you talk it over with your T. I think that's a fair statement to your wife "honey, I need to get my thoughts together about this" is an answer for the moment.