Analyse and close the file.

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

The purpose of this new thread will be to put a veneer of understanding atop the debris of the last 4 years of my life, and the scars left by my experience with my ex.

I am, at the core of my being, someone who always seeks to understand a thing.

I believe this is  one of the reasons why I have found this on again off again, manipulative destructive relationship to be so addictive, alienating, and painful.



I will no longer be trying to figure out what she is going to do next, and the time of her having any influence in my life, decisions, and thought processes is done.



Let me first espouse the importance and efficacy of no contact.

Something it took me years to properly adhere to, and something I lied to myself about doing properly for many many months.

We are in our longest stretch of no contact ever, looking back I realize why she would always keep in touch with me and would not go dark for longer than like 30 to 45 days.

Whether it was conscious or not, intentional or not, somewhere in her mind she knows that that is how long someone stays hooked and addicted.

Having not had any conversation or contact in almost 2 months now, the level of clarity that I have been able to experience in the last month or so has been profound for lack of a better term.



So as much as I know that borderlines are unpredictable, erratic and inconsistent,  my scientific nature demands that I at least try to understand the condition, if not her specifically.



What follows is a list of behaviors or tendencies that stick in my mind. My intention here is to use those as a comparison to the rest of you, and the way that your partners behaved.  In the hopes that I will find some common denominator in the condition, and achieve some degree of understanding which will allow me to put the final shovel full of dirt on the grave of the last few years of my life. 4 years that I spent dedicating myself to what I have in recent weeks, come to realize was nothing more than an elaborate con artist.

If you have experienced any of these similar behaviors, please chime in.



1. Patterns and Cycles - Over the years I was able to  determine that she very much runs on seasonal patterns.

Autumn - Panic and Leave current relationship, start a new relationship within weeks.
Winter - Honeymoon phase fades as winter deepens, depression sets in. The failings of the partner are seen.
Spring - A reprieve from depression, and things usually stabilize here, but the relationship no longer has its "Sparkle" - the hourglass is draining.
Summer - Summer brings energy, new hobbies, new tasks, and the relationship begins to become a burden.
Fall - Rinse and Repeat, be it by recycling previous partner, or finding a new one.


I find the consistency of this particularly interesting. After 4 years, I've realized you can set a calendar to it. 



2. Moth to the Flame -  another common denominator  with borderlines is obviously the conditions of their childhood.  In my ex's case, she had an absent father and an abusive mother. Her mother is particularly monstrous, did horrible things to her as a kid, and went through men like toilet paper. The last of these is something specifically that my ex would mention on a regular basis as being damaging to her as a child. She has specifically talked about how she hated it, and refuses to be like her mother. Despite all of that, she does almost all of the exact same things her mother did to her, with the exception of physically abusing her child. She is a considerably better mother than her mother, and is dedicated to her daughter. However the cycling of men in her life is no different than her mother ever did. I saw her daughter lash out with bad behaviors both times I was kicked out of the house with my son. My son and I brought stability into the household that her daughter relied upon. I recently learned that the guy that my ex dated during our first break up,  did in fact move into the house and live there for the winter. My ex always said that he just stayed there a lot but never moved in. I have noticed she has a tendency to try and make sure she has a guy living with her throughout the winter to help her pay bills. I honestly believe that was the reason for us getting back together the second time. She literally just wanted to use me to help pay the bills throughout a tough winter.

My point is this, despite having grown up with certain behaviors and consciously and verbally recognizing how damaging they were to her as a child, and verbally refusing to do the same thing her mother did when she was a kid, it's like she can't help but follow in her mother's footsteps. Drawn to the Push-Pull relationships, constant need for drama, and inability to attach or be loved.  Drawn to the inevitable like a moth to the flame.



3.  The criticality of close contact -

engulfment, and the duplicitous dance it does with fear of Abandonment. What an awful toxic combination.

She was so intense at the beginning of our relationship that it even put me, the Hopeless Romantic that I am, a bit on edge. She was too intense in the beginning. She was like a kid with a new puppy. Then things settle down, and normalize. This lasts for a few months at most. Both of our breakups were triggered by situations of deepening our connection.
 First break up occurred shortly after going on a vacation together, and getting a puppy, and having lived together for about a year at that point.

Only when I was talking about moving out of state, and again in Autumn when she was bored with her replacement relationship, did she fear losing me, and take me back.
 Then again the following summer, after we went on vacation a second time and got engaged, 3 weeks after getting home the pushing away began.
 How many of you had situations where  a major discard or the end of your relationship was triggered by a Moment of growth and closeness?





I know this is a long post and I appreciate anyone who read this far.

[OKrunch]

The purpose of this new thread will be to put a veneer of understanding atop the debris of the last 4 years of my life, and the scars left by my experience with my ex.

I am, at the core of my being, someone who always seeks to understand a thing.

I believe this is  one of the reasons why I have found this on again off again, manipulative destructive relationship to be so addictive, alienating, and painful.



I will no longer be trying to figure out what she is going to do next, and the time of her having any influence in my life, decisions, and thought processes is done.



Let me first espouse the importance and efficacy of no contact.

Something it took me years to properly adhere to, and something I lied to myself about doing properly for many many months.

We are in our longest stretch of no contact ever, looking back I realize why she would always keep in touch with me and would not go dark for longer than like 30 to 45 days.

Whether it was conscious or not, intentional or not, somewhere in her mind she knows that that is how long someone stays hooked and addicted.

Having not had any conversation or contact in almost 2 months now, the level of clarity that I have been able to experience in the last month or so has been profound for lack of a better term.



So as much as I know that borderlines are unpredictable, erratic and inconsistent,  my scientific nature demands that I at least try to understand the condition, if not her specifically.



What follows is a list of behaviors or tendencies that stick in my mind. My intention here is to use those as a comparison to the rest of you, and the way that your partners behaved.  In the hopes that I will find some common denominator in the condition, and achieve some degree of understanding which will allow me to put the final shovel full of dirt on the grave of the last few years of my life. 4 years that I spent dedicating myself to what I have in recent weeks, come to realize was nothing more than an elaborate con artist.

If you have experienced any of these similar behaviors, please chime in.



1. Patterns and Cycles - Over the years I was able to  determine that she very much runs on seasonal patterns.

Autumn - Panic and Leave current relationship, start a new relationship within weeks.
Winter - Honeymoon phase fades as winter deepens, depression sets in. The failings of the partner are seen.
Spring - A reprieve from depression, and things usually stabilize here, but the relationship no longer has its "Sparkle" - the hourglass is draining.
Summer - Summer brings energy, new hobbies, new tasks, and the relationship begins to become a burden.
Fall - Rinse and Repeat, be it by recycling previous partner, or finding a new one.


I find the consistency of this particularly interesting. After 4 years, I've realized you can set a calendar to it. 



2. Moth to the Flame -  another common denominator  with borderlines is obviously the conditions of their childhood.  In my ex's case, she had an absent father and an abusive mother. Her mother is particularly monstrous, did horrible things to her as a kid, and went through men like toilet paper. The last of these is something specifically that my ex would mention on a regular basis as being damaging to her as a child. She has specifically talked about how she hated it, and refuses to be like her mother. Despite all of that, she does almost all of the exact same things her mother did to her, with the exception of physically abusing her child. She is a considerably better mother than her mother, and is dedicated to her daughter. However the cycling of men in her life is no different than her mother ever did. I saw her daughter lash out with bad behaviors both times I was kicked out of the house with my son. My son and I brought stability into the household that her daughter relied upon. I recently learned that the guy that my ex dated during our first break up,  did in fact move into the house and live there for the winter. My ex always said that he just stayed there a lot but never moved in. I have noticed she has a tendency to try and make sure she has a guy living with her throughout the winter to help her pay bills. I honestly believe that was the reason for us getting back together the second time. She literally just wanted to use me to help pay the bills throughout a tough winter.

My point is this, despite having grown up with certain behaviors and consciously and verbally recognizing how damaging they were to her as a child, and verbally refusing to do the same thing her mother did when she was a kid, it's like she can't help but follow in her mother's footsteps. Drawn to the Push-Pull relationships, constant need for drama, and inability to attach or be loved.  Drawn to the inevitable like a moth to the flame.



3.  The criticality of close contact -

engulfment, and the duplicitous dance it does with fear of Abandonment. What an awful toxic combination.

She was so intense at the beginning of our relationship that it even put me, the Hopeless Romantic that I am, a bit on edge. She was too intense in the beginning. She was like a kid with a new puppy. Then things settle down, and normalize. This lasts for a few months at most. Both of our breakups were triggered by situations of deepening our connection.
 First break up occurred shortly after going on a vacation together, and getting a puppy, and having lived together for about a year at that point.

Only when I was talking about moving out of state, and again in Autumn when she was bored with her replacement relationship, did she fear losing me, and take me back.
 Then again the following summer, after we went on vacation a second time and got engaged, 3 weeks after getting home the pushing away began.
 How many of you had situations where  a major discard or the end of your relationship was triggered by a Moment of growth and closeness?





I know this is a long post and I appreciate anyone who read this far.

[zachira]

I believe we analyze and continue thinking about how the disordered people in our lives have hurt us, in part, because deep down inside we would so much like an apology and for the person to change. There is so much pain to process when we have spent years in close contact with a disordered person/disordered people. The best piece of advice my therapist ever gave me was when in the presence of a disordered person, was to notice how I was feeling inside (instead of focusing on the other person). I find that the more I look inside of myself and come to develop a more coherent sense of self, the less I am interested in the reasons why so many of my family members have made me their scapegoat, just like they have with other family scapegoats for at least six generations. The truth for most of us is we learned as young children that our feelings didn't matter, that our lifetime job is to soothe the feelings of the disordered adults around us. People with BPD and NPD dump their uncomfortable feelings on others so they don't have to face how they really feel deep down inside. The constant melt downs and mistreatment of others defy logic most of the time. Keep working on self care and with time, you will gradually spend less time on trying to understand why you have been treated so badly by another person and will overall feel much happier with your life. What do you do for self care now? When the abuse has been long term, of course you will have moments in which you think about it, and the moments will become less overwhelming with time, though probably never completely go away.

[OKrunch]

I think one of the biggest hurdles is the cognitive disconnect that once you are discarded/dumped/whatever, that we all assume for a while that they are living their best life, and have dropped all bad habits, behaviors etc. Especially when bolstered with the knowladge of HOW they are during a honeymoon phase, and what that feels like.
I suppose its an ego fear that they will find the puzzle piece that makes them nuerotypical or at least able to act that way.

It takes the logical fortitude to defeat the emotional thinking and realize this is obviously not the case.
History oft repeats itself, and I find myself thinking more and more each day along the lines of "Yea, i still battle all the happy memories, those are what are prevelant to me. However I can more easily recall the daily arguments, emotional shutdowns, lies, double standards and so on far more clearly each day."

The random pop-up style happy memories are the hardest still, and I am still reeling a bit from having things so obviously and intentionally rubbed in my face a few weeks ago, but honestly I pretty much pity the poor fella.
When I got that text a few weeks ago, with all its territorial bravado, all i could think was "Oh, you sweet summer child".
knowing how easy it is to fall into Knighthood when the "Abusive, monsterous ex" is discussed.
I do not miss being the prime focus of such scheming trinagulation.

Already starting many new healthy habits. 2024 will be a great year.

[OKrunch]

Also, just keeping track of the things that have persisted to remain on my mind, despite the longest unbroken stretch of NC we've ever had, and its intended to be lifelong.
I know a lot of these can be answered by simply saying "Remain blocked and in NC and these are moot issues" and I agree, but I am just journaling what has been bouncing around my grey matter.

1.) I feel as though there is still some degree of "ownership" of me on her end. She's living her life and wants nothing to do with me, and I feel the same. Somehow I firmly believe that (and my T agrees) that when I have moved on and am living a new life with new people, it will offend her somehow because after all I am supposed to stay in the box i was put in.

2.) The recent "text from her BF" only serves to solidify the above. It was assumed I would be deeply hurt, and would fly into a rage or a fit of depressed begging at the specific mention of things ive listed in the past to her that I valued, now being flaunted as "His". This was clearly her typing and it was directly intended to upset me. So if someone is happy and living a happy life with a new partner, why stir the pot?
CONTROL thats why. Both putting me in my place and concreting her hold on Newguy.
I think id count it as a partial victory on her part that I am still thinking this much about it.
Gonna work on that.

3.) She holds on to items, mail and other such things as a backup plan to have a reason for contact. Which is why, despite several requests in the past, I still havent gotten my terrarium back, or some of my tools.
Chalking both up as losses, which is unfortunate as the terrarium was a 3 year sealed bottle type i built with my son.

4.) Patterns, Cycles and Seasons. She repeats her behaviors like clockwork. That tells me I need to be extra vigilant come springtime.

[OKrunch]

Moving into the new year, I am really trying to focus the lense inward.

I have spent so much time trying to figure out why my ex is the way she is, why she does the things she does. Etc.
It has been very clearly pointed out to me that this is a fruitless pursuit.

Moving forward, I am going to be really focusing on answering the following things about MYSELF.


1.) Why do i "Flourish" when in a relationship, and so prone to depression and negative self thoughts when I am not?
I need to be content to be single.

2.) My Ego. This has been the biggest struggle in trying to let go entirely.
I still crave the "recycle attempt" if only to tell her to Eff off, i daydream about this often. The moment I would finally tell her NO MORE to her face. I know this is not needed, and would only cause more pain and elongate my healing, but boy does my Ego desire it.
I still ruminate on the things that were "unjust" that I and my son endured as part of this dissolution.
I see so many of you that are able to let go, not hold grudges and not wish for karmic retribution, which I still hope for way more often than I would like to admit.
How do i reach true 100% apathy when it comes to her? I look forward to the day she doesn't cross my mind in any way, shape or form.

3.) Kill the "Gut Link". As recently revisted in my other thread, I am still getting random "gut feelings" and empethetic intuitions that are very obviously "Not my feelings". I have struggled to describe this phenomeneon accurately, and it challenges my scientific mind, but it has been too consistant and accurate to ignore.
I have already tried a number of "Cord cutting" type exercises, and will be looking into and doing more to squash this lingering facet of my wound.

4.) Forgivness. This is the final hurdle. Only when I truly achice apathy, when my ego is at rest, and when my gut is quiet, can i begin to forgive her. Forgiveness will be the final step in patting down the dirt on the grave of our relationship, and the past 5 years.

[tina7868]

Hey OKrunch,

I can feel through your words the self work you are putting in. It is a process that is not easy, but is so so fruitful, and I am thankful that you continue to share it with us. It is also a process that, I think, doesn`t have an ending; there is always more to learn, more perspective to gain. To me, that`s what keeps life interesting.

I see so many of you that are able to let go, not hold grudges and not wish for karmic retribution, which I still hope for way more often than I would like to admit.

Everyone has their own journey. Comparing ourselves to others is normal (I certainly do it!), but remember that a big component in focusing your lens inwards is to allow yourself to feel how you feel, to accept it and let it be.

Of the four points you bring up, is there one that is especially important to you, that you want to focus on first?

[OKrunch]

Hey OKrunch,

I can feel through your words the self work you are putting in. It is a process that is not easy, but is so so fruitful, and I am thankful that you continue to share it with us. It is also a process that, I think, doesn`t have an ending; there is always more to learn, more perspective to gain. To me, that`s what keeps life interesting.

Everyone has their own journey. Comparing ourselves to others is normal (I certainly do it!), but remember that a big component in focusing your lens inwards is to allow yourself to feel how you feel, to accept it and let it be.

Of the four points you bring up, is there one that is especially important to you, that you want to focus on first?

Definitley the Ego bit.
I am feeling it today specifically, There are still two halfs of my mind playing tug of war over her reaching out.
Half of me hopes she doesn't and it's just dead and gone forever, and my ego half wants her to reach out, just to validate everything ive felt over the past months.
Today for some reason my brain decided to miss things. The kids together, the dogs, etc.
Just another day on the pendulum, this morning I swung into the "I wish things had been different, and we couldve figured things out" realm, so naturally I am anticipating swinging back into the "Im glad shes gone, and leaving me alone" realm.

I am proud of myself for reaching 90 days of complete NC, and social media checking.

[jaded7]

Definitley the Ego bit.
I am feeling it today specifically, There are still two halfs of my mind playing tug of war over her reaching out.
Half of me hopes she doesn't and it's just dead and gone forever, and my ego half wants her to reach out, just to validate everything ive felt over the past months.
Today for some reason my brain decided to miss things. The kids together, the dogs, etc.
Just another day on the pendulum, this morning I swung into the "I wish things had been different, and we couldve figured things out" realm, so naturally I am anticipating swinging back into the "Im glad shes gone, and leaving me alone" realm.

I am proud of myself for reaching 90 days of complete NC, and social media checking.

You should be proud of yourself, 90 days is really good. I'm now 4 years out, no contact, and I miss things, I miss 'us'.....but I'm also much clearer on how abusive the language and treatment was. I know that a partner that called me those things and yelled at me, pointed a finger in my face as she was yelling at me, etc.   is out of control and is not showing love.

I get that split desire to hav her reach out so you can tell her off, or reach out to reconnect if only to validate the bad behavior and pain it caused you.

That's one of the worst things about being in a relationship with a BPD-like person, ver little validation and very little emotional support. And being told that you are the problem, you are the one that dropped the ball and hurt HER.

[OKrunch]

I've been thinking a lot about the conditioning we go through as partners of borderlines.

We get programs to expect certain behaviors,

This stretch of no contact has been twice as long as any other in the past between her and i.

I have felt on edge since before the holidays, because holidays, but I think another piece of it is that we recycled so many times that I have come to expect it, and since it has been such a long stretch of no contact that expectation has turned into anxiety of a sort.

After completely getting back together after one break up, and several many recycles since, it just becomes the expected behavior pattern.

While I barely spend any time missing her now, which I am very pleased about, her, our relationship, and the possibility of future behaviors are still all on my mind pretty much daily.
It's like I've been so built up to expect her to touch base eventually, even though at this point I hope she doesn't, it just sticks in my mind as a possibility and I want to eventually be free of that thought process too.

They say I can go weeks without thinking about any of it, at all, I'll be happy, and it honestly feels like that may not be too far in my future.

As much as certain aspects of long term NC are still nagging at me NOW, I much prefer the mindset of "I wish things would stop reminding me of the situation, and I hope she stays out of touch"
As opposed to "I miss her so much, how could she do this to me, I thought she loved me, I'm dying"

I just wish there was a way I could know 100% for certain that she finally pissed off for good. Lol

[OKrunch]

Rough weekend, I cant seem to shake this feeling that we are always connected, depsite wanting the opposite of that.

Im still so angry about things sometimes, I wouldve thought that with the departure of my desire to reconcile, that eventually the death of the connected anger would fade.

I am still very conflicted by "Still loving someone i hate"
What the hell even is that?

As always the "She's living it up while I lost everything" is still a big source of pain.
She had zero reprocussions from any of her selfish BS. After all she stole from my son. She has had no concsequences.

Mostly though, its this lingering sense of connection that irks me. Like each day part of me still expects to hear from her, if only for some drama reason.

My divorce didnt mess me up NEARLY this bad. I'm pretty pissed today, and mostly pissed at myself for my continued intemittent attachment.

WHY DO I MISS WHAT I FUNDAMENTALLY KNOW IS FALSE, HURTFUL, SELFISH AND MANIPULATIVE.???

[SaltyDawg]

WHY DO I MISS WHAT I FUNDAMENTALLY KNOW IS FALSE, HURTFUL, SELFISH AND MANIPULATIVE.???

Short Answer:  You are STILL 'trauma bonded' to her.

Better Answer:  On your next therapy session with your T, ask her how you can become less trauma bonded with her.  Until this session happens, do research on how to be less trauma bonded.  Google "how to break a trauma bond with an ex?" and you will see thousands of resources, browse them, and see which one resonates with you best and then share that with your T to see if it is effective for you.

In the mean time, do some self-care (this also helps).

Take care.

SD

[tina7868]

Rough weekend, I cant seem to shake this feeling that we are always connected, depsite wanting the opposite of that.

Im still so angry about things sometimes, I wouldve thought that with the departure of my desire to reconcile, that eventually the death of the connected anger would fade.

I am still very conflicted by "Still loving someone i hate"
What the hell even is that?

As always the "She's living it up while I lost everything" is still a big source of pain.
She had zero reprocussions from any of her selfish BS. After all she stole from my son. She has had no concsequences.

Mostly though, its this lingering sense of connection that irks me. Like each day part of me still expects to hear from her, if only for some drama reason.

I`m sorry you had a rough weekend.

It sounds like two things are prominently bothering you : 1) a lingering sense of connection, which makes you feel like you want to hear from her, which in turn makes you feel angry at yourself 2) a belief that she has `won` (no consequences, enjoying herself), which make you feel pain. Would you agree with these points, or would you put them differently?

I wonder, if we focus on 1), whether we can drop the second part, the part where you are angry at yourself. What if you accepted that, yes, you still feel a connection, but you didn`t judge yourself for it. Yes, you want to hear from her, and it hurts, and it`s okay to be in that space.

WHY DO I MISS WHAT I FUNDAMENTALLY KNOW IS FALSE, HURTFUL, SELFISH AND MANIPULATIVE.???

I think you can answer this best. There are many elements at play: the fact that you cared, a lot, the addictive nature of the relationship, the push and pull dynamic... All of that may linger, and as you heal you can follow each thread to create a better understanding as to what ultimately makes it challenging to let go. And as you do that, give yourself compassion, since it is more complicated than meets the eye. Hang in there.

[OKrunch]

Tina,

After typing this, I read the thread discussing "Empathy for BPD" and that thread really helped me put things into perspective.

Cognitive dissonence is a thing, and I still think the "Dr Jekyll vs. Mr. Hyde" fight is still going on in my head.
Despite knowing Hyde is the true persona, i WANTED Jekyll to be the true persona SO BAD, that my mind still (despite knowing better) often confuses these two personas and Its easy to forget about Hyde when I am missing Jekyll.

[OKrunch]

Saw the first triggering images in a long time. Ex-DIL came up as a suggested connection on Facebook, and saw pics she had recently taken of the new guy, My EX and her all enjoying the snow day from earlier in the week. The new guy playing with my puppy etc.

Definitely got under my skin more than Id like to admit.

and Tina, to touch on what you said. I am mad at myself for still being attached, when everything in my logical mind is very much done. I am mad my emotional mind hasnt caught up. Still, even well over a year later.

[seekingtheway]

It's frustrating isn't it how you want those emotional feelings to turn off, you've processed all the logistical side of it and you just want to move on... but those feelings linger.

I guess the timeline will vary for everyone, but I wonder if the anger and frustration you have with yourself and potentially with her is something that might be holding you back a little? I once heard something along the lines of us holding onto anger because it's the only thing we have left of that person - the last tie. Even if the anger isn't with her, it's related to your experience with her... letting go of the anger can sometimes feel scary because when that's gone, all of it's gone... not sure if any of that would land with you?

I relate to you about holding this tight idea of the story not yet being over, and I'm not sure what your story was with your ex, but if there was any push/pull like there was with my ex, then it becomes an imprint in your mind of how the relationship works - they leave, they come back, they want you, they don't... so you're just expecting more of the same, so it's almost like you need to re-program your brain with something else when those thoughts pop into your head. Bringing the focus back to you and saying out loud what you want here??

[OKrunch]

It's frustrating isn't it how you want those emotional feelings to turn off, you've processed all the logistical side of it and you just want to move on... but those feelings linger.

I guess the timeline will vary for everyone, but I wonder if the anger and frustration you have with yourself and potentially with her is something that might be holding you back a little? I once heard something along the lines of us holding onto anger because it's the only thing we have left of that person - the last tie. Even if the anger isn't with her, it's related to your experience with her... letting go of the anger can sometimes feel scary because when that's gone, all of it's gone... not sure if any of that would land with you?

Oh, its definitely holding me back, and i want so much for it to be gone. I am doing all I can to try and "cut the cord" and so on. I think A lot of it is connected to loss. Losing the life i thought we were building, the memories we had forged, and so on. It makes me feel duped, fooled and lied to.
I'd say its not so much that I am holding on to anger, but it feels like anger is holding on to me. If that makes sense. Its that Logic vs. Emotion battle. My logic has been there for months now, but I am a romantic to my core, and obviously pretty susceptible to trauma bonds and some codependent behaviors.

I relate to you about holding this tight idea of the story not yet being over, and I'm not sure what your story was with your ex, but if there was any push/pull like there was with my ex, then it becomes an imprint in your mind of how the relationship works - they leave, they come back, they want you, they don't... so you're just expecting more of the same, so it's almost like you need to re-program your brain with something else when those thoughts pop into your head. Bringing the focus back to you and saying out loud what you want here??

1000% I read a bunch about "intermittent stimuli" and the Gamblers Addiction style that a lot of BPD people tend to show in their behaviors, much of which I believe is something they do mostly subconsciously, and if not subconscious, they do it out of desperation. Anything is better than being truly alone to them, at any cost, even their integrity and scruples.
It definitely programs your brain chemistry and the dopamine-cortisol tango is one HELL of a drug.
We all do it in one way or another, She has been programmed to my head to be my source of dopamine, and even after ALL THIS TIME, that neural pathway is still there, but it WILL eventually become overgrown and forgotten from disuse.
This is the same thing I remind myself when I am feeling jealous or hurt by the many replacements Ive seen now in the past 4 years.
It is her way of feeding that dopamine need, that new person, that wonderful limerence.
So as you mention, the effort of late has been to reprogram and repave those neural pathways.

But Borderlines, based off all I've read here, can pave a neural pathway so solid and difficult to erode, they would, make a Roman engineer blush, so truly and fully re-training that pathway, will (no pun intended) be a hell of a long road.

But I'll get there. We all will.

[OKrunch]

lots and lots and lots of incoming energy and intrusive thoughts today.

Despite a cleansing meditation last night that went really well.
I swear, something is coming down the pipes.

Tiny Gods i just want some true peace. I feel like I don't remeber what that feels like.

[Pook075]

lots and lots and lots of incoming energy and intrusive thoughts today.

Hey buddy.  I still have those as times and in some ways, I probably always will until I'm completely into the next stage of my life.  The big thing that helped me is knowing that I'm better off without her and being out of a toxic, co-dependent relationship.  It was a learned behavior I spent 24 years learning, so it's not simple to just forget it and move on.

I'm to the point where my wife and I talk fairly frequently now, but it's only as friends and parents.  I feel blessed because I've finally been able to say what I had to say for me to have closure, and she took it in stride with understanding.  I don't have to worry about no contact anymore because I've finally healed enough where contact outside of the relationship feels normal.

In my case, my wife and I only talked maybe 5 or 6 times over a year period, so I actually had enough time for self-reflection and healing.  You didn't have that luxury and because you kept getting pulled back in, it was like the band-aid was being ripped off over and over again.  I did that for the first few months and it was unbearable, so I'm not sure how you've survived this long in that ugly cycle.

Keep your head up brother and keep searching for answers.  You may never find them, but I promise you that she's not an evil woman who was out to destroy you.  She's just sick and can't handle relationships once she gets too close...it stinks but it is what it is.  I'm really happy you're starting to see the bigger picture and realize that this wasn't your fault- it's been that darn BPD all along and there's no way to "fix" it.

[seekingtheway]

I think A lot of it is connected to loss. Losing the life i thought we were building, the memories we had forged, and so on. It makes me feel duped, fooled and lied to.

I relate to this so much - this is the hardest part for me as well with my ex. It's the story and vision that he sold to me over and over again... a story that I desperately wanted and he described to me in vivid detail... and he would give me tasters of it, then pull away.

I do realise that he was coming towards me from his anxiety, rather than a sense of trust in himself... his words projected that he was in absolute control and knew exactly what he wanted and what he was capable of giving and doing, but the reality is that he doesn't have control over any of those things. I realised I need to process the relationship based on his actions rather than his words... but that's really difficult.

I talked to him about this in our most recent breakup and he owned the fact that he kept making promises he couldn't deliver on, and he admitted that he made those promises so that he wouldn't lose me. It was his fear of abandonment speaking from the beginning, which means yes, in a certain kind of way, we were duped.

There will be someone else out there who can actually deliver the things that were promised, albeit maybe a bit more of a realistic version of the fairytale... sometimes I think it's about identifying the parts of the fairytale that you really wanted so badly, and embodying them in yourself...  and then finding someone else who can actually join you on that level. Getting really clear about what drew you in and actively bringing a truer version of that into your life.

[OKrunch]

I'm to the point where my wife and I talk fairly frequently now, but it's only as friends and parents.  I feel blessed because I've finally been able to say what I had to say for me to have closure, and she took it in stride with understanding.  I don't have to worry about no contact anymore because I've finally healed enough where contact outside of the relationship feels normal.

In my case, my wife and I only talked maybe 5 or 6 times over a year period, so I actually had enough time for self-reflection and healing.  You didn't have that luxury and because you kept getting pulled back in, it was like the band-aid was being ripped off over and over again.  I did that for the first few months and it was unbearable, so I'm not sure how you've survived this long in that ugly cycle.

This is where I am at with my ex wife (previous relationship, not ExBPD), we had a lot on animosity for quite some time due to a nasty court case, but she has grown a lot, and so have I. We co parent really well now. Its quite nice.
The level of peace and indifference I now have with my ex wife, is where I personally aim to be with my recent ex, with the one difference being that there is no need for contact.

Keep your head up brother and keep searching for answers.  You may never find them, but I promise you that she's not an evil woman who was out to destroy you.  She's just sick and can't handle relationships once she gets too close...it stinks but it is what it is.  I'm really happy you're starting to see the bigger picture and realize that this wasn't your fault- it's been that darn BPD all along and there's no way to "fix" it.

Despite my frequent anger, I know this to be true. When the jealousy and anger burns away, I legit feel bad that I know what she has now will also not last. Ex-Step Daughter will experience loss again. and again.
My ex said so many times when she was more "lucid" - "I refuse to be like my mother, and always cycle through men" but sadly that is exactly what she does. I know in the core of her heart she doesn't want to be like that, but she can't help it.
This is further evidenced by the fact that both periods of devalue and eventual discard came after major milestones of relationship closeness. Its the classic engulfment trap. I highly doubt she continued with therapy, as she had not been going when we were last in touch, and that just seals the deal on the cycle repeating itself. 2 weeks before gloatingly telling me she was "with someone who made her so happy" (key point HE makes HER happy, as that is the ultimate goal. she cant be happy herself, and is still trying to rely on others to do it for her, which is impossible.) she had told me she was "Blissfully Unattached" these things just show me how impulsive and "tidal" she is, for lack of a better term. Around that same time she also said "Ill probably always be fleeting". She said this in a very depressed and dejected tone. Like she knows it will always be her fate. Sometimes I wonder if she does what she does to "protect" the people she is close with, to push them away before she does bigger damage. Which obviously wasnt the case with us, but it seems reasonable based on other relationships she has had.
I spend A LOT of time in anger, feeling betrayed, being angry on behalf of my son,
but I would be lying if i said I didn't miss her, didn't often still want her, etc.
The difference now is a head vs heart thing. My heart wants what it wants, and part of that is due to my own relationship issues, but in my head I know it could never work again.
This is what worries me the most about future recycle scenarios.
I know I have been the one person she always bounce back to, no matter how many times shes bounced away.
Although this new relationship of hers feels like the first "Real" one since her and I met, I can't help but assume it will tank eventually, and Im not sure if I would be able to say no if she called me looking for care, affection and support right now. I know how bad Id want it, to be there for her, but each recycle has been shorter, and more viscious.
I can't do that to myself again, even if it was an option, or ever is again.

I am working on forgiving her, so I can be at peace. Then, the only place it has left to go is a dustyf forgotten corner of my mind.

[OKrunch]

Afterthought:

I am trying to also deal with frequently letting my feelings of anger and betrayal turn to wishes of vindictive karma.

In dark moods I will wish that she gets fired from her job, rent gets increased or lease not renewed.
I have hoped the dogs crap on the floor, and the house is a pain in the butt (it wasnt originally designed for 4 season living, winter there is difficult). I have wished I could reach out from a private number and just tell her shes awful and selfish. I have hoped her car breaks down.

I think it is largely due to feeling cheated, and robbed.
I found the house, I setup the rental. Yet she is the one who has stayed there, twice, during both breakups.
I helped her get her new job through MY sister in law, who has since been laid off, but my EX is still there.
It was my idea to get the dogs, but she kept them both.
My son got kicked out, got on the bus one morning and never got to come home. Her daughter has lost nothing (not that I want her to, its just the unfairness of it all that irks me)
She kept a great many things I bought for the house (Mower, tools, etc)

Put simply, She was the bad relationship partner, but only gained better housing, a better job, and loving pets, all of which My son and I had to lose, leave or not get, But yet everything is my fault, I am the toxic partner, and all the other ways she has avoided any responsibility or blame.

I know these thoughts are not healthy, and they are a major motivator to truly forgive and forget.

"Hate is baggage. Life's too short to be pissed off all the time. It's just not worth it."
Danny Vinyard (Edward Furlong) American History X

[SinisterComplex]

This is where I am at with my ex wife (previous relationship, not ExBPD), we had a lot on animosity for quite some time due to a nasty court case, but she has grown a lot, and so have I. We co parent really well now. Its quite nice.
The level of peace and indifference I now have with my ex wife, is where I personally aim to be with my recent ex, with the one difference being that there is no need for contact.
Despite my frequent anger, I know this to be true. When the jealousy and anger burns away, I legit feel bad that I know what she has now will also not last. Ex-Step Daughter will experience loss again. and again.
My ex said so many times when she was more "lucid" - "I refuse to be like my mother, and always cycle through men" but sadly that is exactly what she does. I know in the core of her heart she doesn't want to be like that, but she can't help it.
This is further evidenced by the fact that both periods of devalue and eventual discard came after major milestones of relationship closeness. Its the classic engulfment trap. I highly doubt she continued with therapy, as she had not been going when we were last in touch, and that just seals the deal on the cycle repeating itself. 2 weeks before gloatingly telling me she was "with someone who made her so happy" (key point HE makes HER happy, as that is the ultimate goal. she cant be happy herself, and is still trying to rely on others to do it for her, which is impossible.) she had told me she was "Blissfully Unattached" these things just show me how impulsive and "tidal" she is, for lack of a better term. Around that same time she also said "Ill probably always be fleeting". She said this in a very depressed and dejected tone. Like she knows it will always be her fate. Sometimes I wonder if she does what she does to "protect" the people she is close with, to push them away before she does bigger damage. Which obviously wasnt the case with us, but it seems reasonable based on other relationships she has had.
I spend A LOT of time in anger, feeling betrayed, being angry on behalf of my son,
but I would be lying if i said I didn't miss her, didn't often still want her, etc.
The difference now is a head vs heart thing. My heart wants what it wants, and part of that is due to my own relationship issues, but in my head I know it could never work again.
This is what worries me the most about future recycle scenarios.
I know I have been the one person she always bounce back to, no matter how many times shes bounced away.
Although this new relationship of hers feels like the first "Real" one since her and I met, I can't help but assume it will tank eventually, and Im not sure if I would be able to say no if she called me looking for care, affection and support right now. I know how bad Id want it, to be there for her, but each recycle has been shorter, and more viscious.
I can't do that to myself again, even if it was an option, or ever is again.

I am working on forgiving her, so I can be at peace. Then, the only place it has left to go is a dustyf forgotten corner of my mind.

No reason to focus on forgiving her. Provide yourself the peace and forgive yourself.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

[OKrunch]

No reason to focus on forgiving her. Provide yourself the peace and forgive yourself.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

You're right.

Ok, real talk time, and for once it has very little to nothing to do with her.

Desire vs. Reality: For a long time, I legitimately wanted things back to the way they were. Then as I continued to be treated like crap, this shifted to me wanting to detach, but still also wanting reconcilliation in the back of my head. I was lying to myself about wanting to never hear from her again. It's not what I wanted, but what I knew needed to happen, so I spent a lot of time convincing myself of this.
Lately, it has shifted again to a point where I know I'm done, and detachment in every single form is the full legitimate goal.
However, I still find myself dwelling on things on a very (annoyingily) regular basis. This is still true today.
The main difference is that no part of me wants to continue anything with her.
I still have times that I miss and remensice, but that doesn't equate to wanting her back. just aftershocks of the earthquake really.

Here are all of the intrusive thoughts that I struggle with. Some of these were hard to type out here, because I feel like some of them come off as arrogant or obsessive. It is my hope that being honest about some of the things that get stuck in my head will help them go away.

1.) I still feel like every other man she has dated (that I know about) is "not her type" "nothing like me" and "dumber than she deserves" (we always connected well through deep conversation and these guys all seem to be ....Oafish for lack of a better term)

2.) Despite all of my logic concious thoughts of how I was treated, lead on, lied to, and generally diesrespected, I cannot shake this feeling that "things aren't over yet", even though for the first time ever I legitmately want them to be totally and fully dead. I just want peace, and this "sense" that it isnt over is irksome.

3.) The "gut feelings" / "Soul Tie" type stuff persists, and has gotten stronger in the last few weeks. Again I have tried over and over to find logical explinations for this, but I have not found any. If the connection is still there, then this isn't over, and I am working very hard to sever that connection. I Used to think it was a two way thing, but I dont think so anymore.

4.) Frequent happy memories. This is something I've mentioned before. They come in randomly, and pretty often.
They are like 3 second clips of "mental videos" from times we shared. I can be otherwise occupied doing something with my day, and they hit.
The most confusing thing about these I find, is that any BAD memories, fights, etc. all require me to activley think about them and recall them, whereas these "nostalgia bursts" come in randomly and frequently.

5.) The expectation. - I mentioned the Gamblers Conditioning the other day, and this truly is one of the most nefarious side effects on a NON after a BPD relationship. You are trained to always expect them to come back, so when you are in the midst of a silent treatment, discard, or full blown breakup, even for LONG periods of time, you always have that one piece of you that is expecting, or waiting for them to resurface.
This seems to be able to shift over time from "I hope they miss me and reach out soon" to "I'm worried that they will come back and I won't be strong enough to ignore them" or even to "I hope they do so I can tell them how awful they are and how much they hurt me"
I have been in all three places, and some in between, but I do believe this is done by them on purpose.

And what ties ME and MY mental health to all these things you may ask?
My ego.
I still feel like I Lost, like I was dupped, and part of me still feels like someone stole my life, my home, my love and my family.
This is egotistical thinking. This is not healthy, and keeping me attached, or at least engaged in this toxic cycle.

So very recently I have been trying to frame things differently in my mind.
All of these things are outside my locus of control.

I deserve someone who chooses to love me, consistantly, and I am only disrespecting myself by hoping for any form of karma, closure, comuppance, or reconciliation. I need to be happy with myself, and being single. No matter what phase of detachment I was in, I was still thinking about what I wanted, felt like I needed, or wanted to see happen.
I was a good partner (not perfect), I am a good man, and a good husband and father.
For someone with such a difficult ego, I find putting myself down pretty easy when I am in a bad mood.
It is easy for me to feel worthless, unlovable, and generally a bad person, but these things aren't true.

So, how have you all managed to contain your ego when youre feeling cheated, and robbed?
How do you balm it when you are feeling worthless and unlovable?

How can this dichotemy exist?

[OKrunch]

Had a good date night on Saturday. Hoping that pans out, very interesting lady!

This most recent stage of recovery has become quite annoying.

It is terribly frustrating to be logically 100% moved on, and still deal with the intrusive thoughts.

Last few days have been full of vindictive desires.
I can't stop dwelling on hoping that her job, housing or other aspects of her life are chaotic, stressful and just go badly.

I don't want to think this way. I aim for 100% apathy when it comes to her. I want to truly not care.
The dogs are still a big point of contention for me. That and the looming "She has never gone COMPLETLEY away, and I wonder when she will resurface" feelings are really taxing.

In better news, the "mood dumps" i get when these intusive thoughts show up are a lot shorter in duration.

[OKrunch]

Afterthought:

I know the feelings of wanting failures to pop up in her life is based off of my feelings of having been "robbed" of things like the dogs, the house, etc.
That seems to me to just be jealousy and ego. Which I know will fade with time.
The house is a pain in the winter, it BLEEDS heat, it floods, its muddy and messy. There is a lot to love about that house, but a lot I DO NOT miss.
To a much lesser degree I could say the same of the dogs. In my previous absence of our first breakup, the first dog didnt get trained well, and she has seperation anxiety and is an emotional pooper. I don't miss that either, but damn I do miss my doglets.

Secondarily, and in my opinion far more importantly, is the desire I have to see the relationship fail.
If it DOES fail, it tells me that all the observations and patterns ive learned about her are true, that her life is dominated by the need for limerence, attention and then the fear of abandonment, engulfment and devalue discard stuff. It all fits, and It has shown itself to be true over the years.
However if that relationship does NOT fail,  it tells me that all of the things i studied, guessed and learned about her and BPD are maybe not correct, it would make me feel like maybe I was the toxic person in this pairing, and that if she could actually find a stable healthy pairing, that It would make me feel like the disordered person.

I know the shape of my own soul, and in my heart I know which of these two things are true, but If the latter were proved, or came to be i guess, it would definitley call everything ive learned over the past year and a half into doubt and that could seriously mess me up.

Very odd times. It almost feels like things were far more simple when I just wanted her back and missed her hahaha

[Pook075]

However if that relationship does NOT fail...

...that means he's an emotional punching bag that takes her crap and doesn't flinch at the sight of chaos.  That's still failing no matter how you look at it.

[OKrunch]

...that means he's an emotional punching bag that takes her crap and doesn't flinch at the sight of chaos.  That's still failing no matter how you look at it.

 I agree, that is the unspoken third outcome, and I agree that is very much failing, probably the worst form of it.
Ironically that is the one outcome I would be totally unaware of too, which is also probably for the best.

I am just glad I am at a point of trying to understand MYSELF and how our relationship effected ME, rather than all the time I spent trying to figure her out, change myself to fit her needs, and convincing myself that the relationship was anything other than toxic.

[OKrunch]

106 days of NC, 2.5x longer than ever before.
Gut feelings are active today and yesterday.

Standing strong.

[Pook075]

106 days of NC, 2.5x longer than ever before.
Gut feelings are active today and yesterday.

Standing strong.

I've realized something lately.  Some days, I wake up with negative energy and wonder what's going to happen, what I might have done wrong, etc.  As you'd put it, I'd wonder what the universe was trying to tell me (in my case, that's God).

What I've realized is that if I'm having a bad morning...or if I'm just in a sad or grumpy mood...it has nothing at all to do with the universe (for me, God).  Instead, it has everything to do with my outlook and how I can sabotage a perfectly good morning by focusing on all the wrong things.

I still have some bitterness that I can't completely let go of.  I accept though that it is a "me problem" and not the world around me.  Even as a Christian, I am in control of what I focus on and what I allow into my life.  The mistakes, if it's even fair to call them that, are mine and mine alone.  I am the captain of this ship and the universe (for me, God) is my North Star for guidance.  I'm still the one steering though and the fault is mine.

[SinisterComplex]

I've realized something lately.  Some days, I wake up with negative energy and wonder what's going to happen, what I might have done wrong, etc.  As you'd put it, I'd wonder what the universe was trying to tell me (in my case, that's God).

What I've realized is that if I'm having a bad morning...or if I'm just in a sad or grumpy mood...it has nothing at all to do with the universe (for me, God).  Instead, it has everything to do with my outlook and how I can sabotage a perfectly good morning by focusing on all the wrong things.

I still have some bitterness that I can't completely let go of.  I accept though that it is a "me problem" and not the world around me.  Even as a Christian, I am in control of what I focus on and what I allow into my life.  The mistakes, if it's even fair to call them that, are mine and mine alone.  I am the captain of this ship and the universe (for me, God) is my North Star for guidance.  I'm still the one steering though and the fault is mine.

I truly enjoy your outlook here. Sometimes I purposely like to sit back and observe and just watch the growth happen with maybe a little nudge here and there, but Pook for you especially...watching you engage with the forum at large you provided yourself your own therapy and you are on the right track.

Runchie, I would say my sentiments apply to you here as well. The way I see it is that sometimes you just need to know that there are others out there listening but observing and allowing you the space and freedom to grow and get your thoughts out. I would ask both of you to go over your own material and see the growth for yourselves. Compare where you were to where you are now. You are your own best teachers. 

So...Atta Boy #bropound 

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-