Control

[Sappho11]

The more I look back on my father's behaviour, the more I realise it was all about him being in control. Even and perhaps especially the "positive" things, the things done in the name of "worry about me" and "protection". Examples:

• Texting me every morning and night and expecting that I reply right away.
• Sending lengthy emails and expecting I reply just as profusely (particularly when it's about him).
• Driving to the hotel I was staying at when visiting him three (!) times in advance to check it out.
• Not adding me on social media.
• Telling me googling someone is "a violent invasion of privacy".
• Micromanaging every single minute of our interactions by making rigid plans.
• Insisting from the start that I was sensitive, fragile and in need of care and protection.
• Exclusively deciding on times and dates to meet.
• Making me visit him (familiar territory); never once visiting me.
• Refusing to speak English (a foreign language for both of us), instead insisting we speak in his mother tongue (which I barely knew in the beginning).
• Unwillingness to discuss things in written form; preferring spoken (and traceless) communication.
• Having extreme outbursts of anger even at imagined scenarios which would have taken away control from him, such as my visiting him as a surprise.
• Trying to dictate everyone's feelings and even utterances to conform with his wishes.
• Refusing to even slightly alter plans.
• Having a near nervous breakdown in the event of a train being delayed, or not finding a parking space.
• As a consequence, reserving parking spaces days in advance even in a demonstratively empty parking garage.
• Losing it when the baker or restaurant turns out not to have exactly what he wanted.
• Losing it when his plans are not 100% executed to perfection.
• Fishing for compliments, admiration, asking what you think "other people would say".
• Getting as much detail as possible about your friends and trying to disparage them, so you won't believe when they warn you.
• Making sure there are no open channels of contact between you and other members of the family.
• Rage and bafflement in the face of other people having feelings, needs and/or justified reservations.

This is probably not a very original thought, but I wanted to put this out there in case someone relates.

[Pook075]

The more I look back on my father's behaviour, the more I realise it was all about him being in control.

A few thoughts.

#1, you're absolutely right, it was about control.  We all want to be in control, especially when it comes to our kids (at any age).  That's who he was and while it may have been annoying at times, there was mental illness involved.

#2, in your father's mind, he was doing what he felt was best for you.  It probably didn't feel that way at times, but it doesn't make the statement any less true.  He loved how he was capable of loving, despite it sometimes crossing boundaries he couldn't possibly see.  Again, mental illness was involved.

Your post made me think of my best friend from childhood- he plans every minute of his vacations while I only plan lodging and maybe a special dinner or two.  Whenever we travelled together with our families, it was always sort of a thing...neither of us could understand the other.  He'd always be on the run while I was content with some sightseeing and an afternoon nap.  It's vacation, after all, and there should be no rules.

Last November, we went on a cruise together after my wife and I separated since the tickets were already booked.  I spent over half the cruise sitting on the pool deck talking to strangers and just relaxing...and my friend was perplexed.  Let's hit the casino, check out the shows, go on the waterslides, etc.  You see, he hadn't been on a vacation without his wife and kids for over a decade, and he had no idea how to just sit back and relax.  But by day three, he said, "This is incredible...just hanging out doing nothing or whatever we want."  It changed him.

However, he also changed me a little bit as well.  On the departure days, he insisted that we do into town where the natives lived (well outside the typical tourist areas), we see all the sights across the islands, etc.  And those days exhausted me, we'd walk sometimes for miles.  But I have so many awesome memories because I gave in.

I shared that to say that while your dad may have been wrong about a lot of things, it was just him doing the best he could based on what he knew for himself.  Maybe he needed to be ultra-organized for things to feel right.  I'm just not that person but my best friend absolutely is, and somehow we made it work all these years.

[CC43]

Sappho, I can relate to some of your feelings.  I've had men in my life who were controlling, and some of the behaviors you describe do feel like control, especially when they want to control what you do (as opposed to what they themselves do).  Trying to isolate you from others is a pernicious form of control.  Imposing a curfew or tracking your whereabouts at all times can be a form of control, because you lose some of your autonomy.  Having to ask permission to do something that a normal adult would do is a form of control.

But I've also had a few men in my life who think mostly about themselves, and who simply don't have much empathy for others.  In my opinion, selfishness was the source of a lot of their rigidity, or inflexibility.  It's just that they want to do exactly what they want to do, no matter the likes or needs or considerations of other people, even their own children.  It's almost like the position of "man of the house" had gone to their heads, and their "emotional intelligence" remained somewhat impaired.  They don't want to text, because they don't want to text.  They don't want to meet at 7 because they don't want to meet at 7.  They want a steak, and if they don't get a steak, they're mad, and they're going to show it, because they want a steak!  They want adoration because they want adoration!  They want to be the center of attention, because they deserve it!  They want to control the conversation--they take the ball, but usually don't bounce it back.  They just don't think that much about others.  It's their nature.  And if they happen to deviate from doing what they ordinarily want to do, in a gesture towards you, then it might seem OK until something goes awry, like a delay, and then they have a hissy fit.  Their patience was quickly exhausted, and they just can't help but "punish" you for making them do something they don't really want to do.

Just my two cents.  Like you, I'm analytical by nature and think a lot about the behavior of loved ones in my life.  Sometimes I think it helps me interpret the past.

[Tangled mangled]

The more I look back on my father's behaviour, the more I realise it was all about him being in control. Even and perhaps especially the "positive" things, the things done in the name of "worry about me" and "protection". Examples:

• Texting me every morning and night and expecting that I reply right away.
• Sending lengthy emails and expecting I reply just as profusely (particularly when it's about him).
• Driving to the hotel I was staying at when visiting him three (!) times in advance to check it out.
• Not adding me on social media.
• Telling me googling someone is "a violent invasion of privacy".
• Micromanaging every single minute of our interactions by making rigid plans.
• Insisting from the start that I was sensitive, fragile and in need of care and protection.
• Exclusively deciding on times and dates to meet.
• Making me visit him (familiar territory); never once visiting me.
• Refusing to speak English (a foreign language for both of us), instead insisting we speak in his mother tongue (which I barely knew in the beginning).
• Unwillingness to discuss things in written form; preferring spoken (and traceless) communication.
• Having extreme outbursts of anger even at imagined scenarios which would have taken away control from him, such as my visiting him as a surprise.
• Trying to dictate everyone's feelings and even utterances to conform with his wishes.
• Refusing to even slightly alter plans.
• Having a near nervous breakdown in the event of a train being delayed, or not finding a parking space.
• As a consequence, reserving parking spaces days in advance even in a demonstratively empty parking garage.
• Losing it when the baker or restaurant turns out not to have exactly what he wanted.
• Losing it when his plans are not 100% executed to perfection.
• Fishing for compliments, admiration, asking what you think "other people would say".
• Getting as much detail as possible about your friends and trying to disparage them, so you won't believe when they warn you.
• Making sure there are no open channels of contact between you and other members of the family.
• Rage and bafflement in the face of other people having feelings, needs and/or justified reservations.

This is probably not a very original thought, but I wanted to put this out there in case someone relates.

Had to double check your dad was not my BPD ex husband.
So similar: down to the melt downs over parking space!

Strange that when I was knee deep in the relationship I didn’t see it as control, it all seemed childish and I thought he was so entitled to his  childish behaviour.

[Sappho11]

Yes, there are definitely many different factors at play here.

I do understand why people want to be organised. On the scale from "Freewheelin' California hippie spirit, whatever happens happens" to "Northern German bureaucrat, ze agenda is fixed" I probably lean towards the latter, as unflattering (and uncool) as that is. It's probably a matter of debate, and it's possible I'm biasedly judging by my own standards here, but I think there are some things that are reasonable and others that are not.

Arriving half an hour early for an international night train at a big station you don't know: Reasonable.
Arriving half an hour early to a lunch reservation at a local restaurant, then having to stand outside glaring at the people eating inside: Unreasonable.

(Yes the latter actually happened... several times)

Reserving a parking space at an airport when you know it's the holiday season and the garage will be crammed: Reasonable.
Reserving a parking space at a small town's notoriously empty parking garage for a normal Tuesday morning, and driving past 363 free parking spaces to go to the one you reserved (even though it's not even prepaid): Unreasonable.

Yesterday another thing occurred to me, which is so blatantly horrible I can't believe that I haven't mentioned it before. It was actually one of the first things that raised a huge when I met my father, within about four hours of meeting him: he surveils his elderly, dementia-suffering mother in her apartment with video cameras in all rooms (including the bedroom) and checks on her randomly via his phone, multiple times a day. Now, I don't have a 93-year-old, frail parent, but am I mistaken to find this utterly disgusting? What dignity does that poor woman have left? He justified this with him living 100 miles away from her. Fine, but his sister lives in the same city as his mother and checks on her nearly every day? And if he was worried, he could just call? No?

I think it was partially also this sense of "something isn't right here" that led me to never want to stay over at his place, but to stay at a hotel instead (over which he threw multiple tantrums, and first mentioned that he should kill himself), and to not drive to his niece's party with him on my birthday as he demanded (again he threatened to kill himself when I refused). Whenever I pulled back a little and didn't reply as swiftly, he'd also send weird, elaborate messages of how I was "a frail little bird that mustn't be caged or suffocated" in which he was talking to himself, not to me.

I mean, if my organisation scale ends at "Northern German bureaucrat", he's not even on it anymore, because his apparently has a notch closer to "Cue the frickin' Hitchcock soundtrack".

[zanyapple]

Texting me every morning and night and expecting that I reply right away.

What happens if you don't respond right away?

My uBPD mother loses it. Her mind goes to places that no normal person thinks about. Often times, her text messages will then be followed up by, "Why did you block me?" knowing full well that I did not do that.

"Why did you block me?" is a templated answer too. She knows that this upsets me (because it's accusatory to me and it's untrue), yet she repeats it; she uses it to push my buttons. The last she said this I completely ignored it which prompted her to send another completely unrelated text.

Text messages are also followed by numerous calls. She doesn't only do this to me, but everyone else in her life. She talked to her sister a few days ago, but upon calling her again, she didn't respond promptly, so she texted me and said, "Your aunt no longer responds to me." No longer?? They just talked a few days ago.

TBH, no matter what the books and professionals say about them having immature minds, I still cannot wrap my head around it.

[Sappho11]

What happens if you don't respond right away?

My uBPD mother loses it. Her mind goes to places that no normal person thinks about. Often times, her text messages will then be followed up by, "Why did you block me?" knowing full well that I did not do that.

"Why did you block me?" is a templated answer too. She knows that this upsets me (because it's accusatory to me and it's untrue), yet she repeats it; she uses it to push my buttons. The last she said this I completely ignored it which prompted her to send another completely unrelated text.

Text messages are also followed by numerous calls. She doesn't only do this to me, but everyone else in her life. She talked to her sister a few days ago, but upon calling her again, she didn't respond promptly, so she texted me and said, "Your aunt no longer responds to me." No longer?? They just talked a few days ago.

TBH, no matter what the books and professionals say about them having immature minds, I still cannot wrap my head around it.

For you it's "Why did you block me?", I get something along the lines of "I might die soon".

His favourite button to push is "I might have cancer". He's in perfect health and has never shown any susceptibility. My mother on the other hand died of cancer when she was 45.

I started telling him I wasn't going to be provoked and he always went through the usual stages: 1) rage, 2) throwing himself a pity party of how everyone mistreats him, 3) trying to blame his outburst on me and 4) pretending to be sweet again.

Their outbursts become a lot more comprehensible when you see them as a three-year-old toddler in fear of being deserted by their mother. Because that is the developmental stage that they're at. If a three-year-old came running, clinging to your leg, telling you with tears streaming down their little face that they were afraid of dying without you, you wouldn't reason with them; you'd probably say "oh you silly little thing". Which is exactly what my mother used to say to calm my father down at once.

Emotionally, they're children. But when given adult powers and means, their dysregulation become dangerous – especially when they're "above" you in some hierarchy, be it at work as a boss or in the family as a supposed patriarch/matriarch.

[zanyapple]

For you it's "Why did you block me?", I get something along the lines of "I might die soon".

What I hate about "Why did you block me" is because it's accusatory. She's so certain that I blocked her without any evidence. I was upset at her a few times she said this which probably why she is reusing this tactic. Eventually, I did not respond and she just went on like nothing happened.

Emotionally, they're children. But when given adult powers and means, their dysregulation become dangerous – especially when they're "above" you in some hierarchy, be it at work as a boss or in the family as a supposed patriarch/matriarch.

This is true and I've seen many resources say this. Although for some reason, I still find it hard to believe fully. It's because they do have the ability to act like a normal adult in front of others. They only act this way in front of people they have no inhibitions with. Right?

[zanyapple]

I also wanted to add that, children are the same anywhere and everywhere. Whoever they're in front with, they don't care; they will act the same way. They will throw tantrums in private and public settings.

My confusion with BPDs is, while they say they are child-like in terms of emotions, they are in, in fact, capable of "putting on a better version of themselves" in front of certain people. For example, my mother only tantrums in front of me and my dad, but she is a whole different person in front of the sister she adores.

I guess this why I somewhat have difficulties accepting that BPDs are unable to control their emotions because they evidently are able to, if they really wanted to.

[Sappho11]

I also wanted to add that, children are the same anywhere and everywhere. Whoever they're in front with, they don't care; they will act the same way. They will throw tantrums in private and public settings.

My confusion with BPDs is, while they say they are child-like in terms of emotions, they are in, in fact, capable of "putting on a better version of themselves" in front of certain people. For example, my mother only tantrums in front of me and my dad, but she is a whole different person in front of the sister she adores.

I guess this why I somewhat have difficulties accepting that BPDs are unable to control their emotions because they evidently are able to, if they really wanted to.

I'm not sure they control their emotions in front of others either. I think certain people are just more docile, and the pwBPD gets away with a lot more manipulation, which soothes them. Children have favourite people too, for the same reasons. I think we all know a child that prefers the "chill", permissive father over the more sensible, realistic mother (or vice versa).

My father throws tantrums in front of everyone who will challenge him. He only manages to be civil with people who immediately give in to soothe him. Or when he idealises someone. In the first couple of weeks of our acquaintance, he'd have the same outbursts, but he'd calm down after a day or so whenever I stated my confusion about them. His favourite sentence at the time was: "Can we just forget this has happened?" As we got to know one another better and I started to see through his manipulations, he stopped doing that; instead, he'd escalate further and further which has now led to NC.

My guess would be that maybe your aunt doesn't pose as much as a threat to her self-image as you and your father do. (Note that you're not doing a bad thing here, it's just the irrational BPD perspective.)

[zanyapple]

"Can we just forget this has happened?"

Is this a known BPD trait? My uBPD mother is the same way. It’s so easy for her to tell us to move on after she starts fight. Every time an old issue gets uncovered during arguments, it’s so easy for her to say, “it’s already in the past, let’s move on.” I don’t think she’s avoiding confrontation because she only really says this if she feels she’s being targeted.

And her feelings are like a rollercoaster - she harasses me via text and then the next hour or so, she’s asking for forgiveness only to harass me again in the next hour or next day.

[Sappho11]

Is this a known BPD trait? My uBPD mother is the same way. It’s so easy for her to tell us to move on after she starts fight. Every time an old issue gets uncovered during arguments, it’s so easy for her to say, “it’s already in the past, let’s move on.” I don’t think she’s avoiding confrontation because she only really says this if she feels she’s being targeted.

And her feelings are like a rollercoaster - she harasses me via text and then the next hour or so, she’s asking for forgiveness only to harass me again in the next hour or next day.

Literally all of this. My favourite is the double-standard that also gets applied: pwBPD can act out all day every day, but God help you if you even dare to calmly raise an issue every now and again. Then it's simultaneously "it's in the past, let's move on" and "Remember when you did this (much more minor thing, such as reacting with shock to a violent outburst)?!?" Nothing is holy and everything gets dredged up, no matter how often you've explained your feelings. No, it's not their actions hurting you, it's you being faulty for being hurt and "accusing" them of hurting you, "why can you never be happy", "you do nothing but criticise", "you're too sensitive" etc.

I'm at the point in my life where I don't want to have anyone with that disorder in my life anymore, blood relation or not. Life is just too short to be abused, and there are plenty of people who don't. So there.