BPD susceptibility to manipulation

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Last night I watched a fascinating documentary - "Stolen Youth: Inside the Cult at Sarah Lawrence". It's about a group of fairly ordinary college kids, who got sucked into a cult around Lawrence Ray, a father of one of the kids. Ray, who apparently has been diagnosed with NPD and HPD, set himself up as a kind of therapist to the kids. Initially, the kids received an apparent boost in mood and self-esteem. Ultimately, their lives were all demolished, and they were displaying severe psychopathology. One of the individuals was a young woman who was just finishing her residency in psychiatry (after graduating from Harvard, then Columbia Medical School) - she ended up completely non-functional. Watching video of her, you might actually mistakenly think she had BPD.

It left me thinking about my ex. I think people with BPD are more vulnerable to manipulation than neurotypical folks, given the impaired reality testing, yearning for ideal "love", need for validation, poor personal boundaries, etc. In the case of my ex, a former lover (from her college days) sought her out while she was in what she described as the worst crisis of her life (given her son's situation - he had become addicted to meth and was homeless and at times in psychosis, and was frequently involved in life-threatening situations). The former lover pretty clearly would qualify for a diagnosis of NPD. My ex had begun looking for a therapist, given her mental state, but didn't go about it in an effective fashion. Her former lover offered that, given her difficulty in finding a therapist, he could be her therapist - even though he had absolutely no training or experience as a therapist. And they proceeded to enact that, recovering her childhood memories and processing her life traumas, etc. Watching the "Stolen Youth" documentary again made clear to me the power dynamic and capacity for harm that occurs when someone with their own agenda manipulatively takes on a "therapist" role like this.

Within a couple months, my ex was in an affair with the guy (he's married and cheating on his wife) and broke up with me. She has a long history of mental health issues, but was giddily proclaiming to me that her "therapy" with this guy had completely healed her. That all her psych problems had been vanquished. And that I should see her as a model for addressing my own mental health issues.

It's now two years since she got involved with him, and she's displaying worse symptoms of BPD than I ever saw in the years we were together. That includes very severe dissociative episodes that she never had before in her life. And the guy continues to mess with her head - e.g., he told her she was the "spitting image" of a famous musician (whom she bears only minimal resemblance to), and apparently he keeps pushing this on her, and she now believes she somehow shares identity with the musician. There's a bunch of other stuff like this. I don't think the guy she's involved with is deeply malignant/malicious the way that Lawrence Ray was. But it's a really messed up situation.

I've moved on from the relationship, in the sense of not expecting us to ever get back together, and I've gone to minimal contact, etc. And I've gotten to where I'm increasingly at peace with that. And I've come to accept that I have very little influence over her involvement with this guy. She'll reject anything I say to her about it. Though I can kind of relate to this one young woman in the "Stolen Youth" documentary who kept fruitlessly trying to warn her friends about what was happening to them (but no-one would listen). My ex's situation is kind of painful to watch.

In watching the documentary, I also ended up thinking of my biological mother. She had strong BPD traits, and may well have qualified for a diagnosis of BPD. She got sucked in by my biological father, who was something of a monster and very narcissistic (probably qualifying for a diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder). He basically created a cult around himself, gathering a harem of young women who followed all his orders. They all lived in a farmhouse. Sort of Charles Mansonish. He was incredibly abusive. Luckily, I was given up for adoption at birth, so I never met him. I have half-siblings that I'm in touch with who weren't that lucky.

[Pensive1]

Last night I watched a fascinating documentary - "Stolen Youth: Inside the Cult at Sarah Lawrence". It's about a group of fairly ordinary college kids, who got sucked into a cult around Lawrence Ray, a father of one of the kids. Ray, who apparently has been diagnosed with NPD and HPD, set himself up as a kind of therapist to the kids. Initially, the kids received an apparent boost in mood and self-esteem. Ultimately, their lives were all demolished, and they were displaying severe psychopathology. One of the individuals was a young woman who was just finishing her residency in psychiatry (after graduating from Harvard, then Columbia Medical School) - she ended up completely non-functional. Watching video of her, you might actually mistakenly think she had BPD.

It left me thinking about my ex. I think people with BPD are more vulnerable to manipulation than neurotypical folks, given the impaired reality testing, yearning for ideal "love", need for validation, poor personal boundaries, etc. In the case of my ex, a former lover (from her college days) sought her out while she was in what she described as the worst crisis of her life (given her son's situation - he had become addicted to meth and was homeless and at times in psychosis, and was frequently involved in life-threatening situations). The former lover pretty clearly would qualify for a diagnosis of NPD. My ex had begun looking for a therapist, given her mental state, but didn't go about it in an effective fashion. Her former lover offered that, given her difficulty in finding a therapist, he could be her therapist - even though he had absolutely no training or experience as a therapist. And they proceeded to enact that, recovering her childhood memories and processing her life traumas, etc. Watching the "Stolen Youth" documentary again made clear to me the power dynamic and capacity for harm that occurs when someone with their own agenda manipulatively takes on a "therapist" role like this.

Within a couple months, my ex was in an affair with the guy (he's married and cheating on his wife) and broke up with me. She has a long history of mental health issues, but was giddily proclaiming to me that her "therapy" with this guy had completely healed her. That all her psych problems had been vanquished. And that I should see her as a model for addressing my own mental health issues.

It's now two years since she got involved with him, and she's displaying worse symptoms of BPD than I ever saw in the years we were together. That includes very severe dissociative episodes that she never had before in her life. And the guy continues to mess with her head - e.g., he told her she was the "spitting image" of a famous musician (whom she bears only minimal resemblance to), and apparently he keeps pushing this on her, and she now believes she somehow shares identity with the musician. There's a bunch of other stuff like this. I don't think the guy she's involved with is deeply malignant/malicious the way that Lawrence Ray was. But it's a really messed up situation.

I've moved on from the relationship, in the sense of not expecting us to ever get back together, and I've gone to minimal contact, etc. And I've gotten to where I'm increasingly at peace with that. And I've come to accept that I have very little influence over her involvement with this guy. She'll reject anything I say to her about it. Though I can kind of relate to this one young woman in the "Stolen Youth" documentary who kept fruitlessly trying to warn her friends about what was happening to them (but no-one would listen). My ex's situation is kind of painful to watch.

In watching the documentary, I also ended up thinking of my biological mother. She had strong BPD traits, and may well have qualified for a diagnosis of BPD. She got sucked in by my biological father, who was something of a monster and very narcissistic (probably qualifying for a diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder). He basically created a cult around himself, gathering a harem of young women who followed all his orders. They all lived in a farmhouse. Sort of Charles Mansonish. He was incredibly abusive. Luckily, I was given up for adoption at birth, so I never met him. I have half-siblings that I'm in touch with who weren't that lucky.

[SinisterComplex]

Last night I watched a fascinating documentary - "Stolen Youth: Inside the Cult at Sarah Lawrence". It's about a group of fairly ordinary college kids, who got sucked into a cult around Lawrence Ray, a father of one of the kids. Ray, who apparently has been diagnosed with NPD and HPD, set himself up as a kind of therapist to the kids. Initially, the kids received an apparent boost in mood and self-esteem. Ultimately, their lives were all demolished, and they were displaying severe psychopathology. One of the individuals was a young woman who was just finishing her residency in psychiatry (after graduating from Harvard, then Columbia Medical School) - she ended up completely non-functional. Watching video of her, you might actually mistakenly think she had BPD.

It left me thinking about my ex. I think people with BPD are more vulnerable to manipulation than neurotypical folks, given the impaired reality testing, yearning for ideal "love", need for validation, poor personal boundaries, etc. In the case of my ex, a former lover (from her college days) sought her out while she was in what she described as the worst crisis of her life (given her son's situation - he had become addicted to meth and was homeless and at times in psychosis, and was frequently involved in life-threatening situations). The former lover pretty clearly would qualify for a diagnosis of NPD. My ex had begun looking for a therapist, given her mental state, but didn't go about it in an effective fashion. Her former lover offered that, given her difficulty in finding a therapist, he could be her therapist - even though he had absolutely no training or experience as a therapist. And they proceeded to enact that, recovering her childhood memories and processing her life traumas, etc. Watching the "Stolen Youth" documentary again made clear to me the power dynamic and capacity for harm that occurs when someone with their own agenda manipulatively takes on a "therapist" role like this.

Within a couple months, my ex was in an affair with the guy (he's married and cheating on his wife) and broke up with me. She has a long history of mental health issues, but was giddily proclaiming to me that her "therapy" with this guy had completely healed her. That all her psych problems had been vanquished. And that I should see her as a model for addressing my own mental health issues.

It's now two years since she got involved with him, and she's displaying worse symptoms of BPD than I ever saw in the years we were together. That includes very severe dissociative episodes that she never had before in her life. And the guy continues to mess with her head - e.g., he told her she was the "spitting image" of a famous musician (whom she bears only minimal resemblance to), and apparently he keeps pushing this on her, and she now believes she somehow shares identity with the musician. There's a bunch of other stuff like this. I don't think the guy she's involved with is deeply malignant/malicious the way that Lawrence Ray was. But it's a really messed up situation.

I've moved on from the relationship, in the sense of not expecting us to ever get back together, and I've gone to minimal contact, etc. And I've gotten to where I'm increasingly at peace with that. And I've come to accept that I have very little influence over her involvement with this guy. She'll reject anything I say to her about it. Though I can kind of relate to this one young woman in the "Stolen Youth" documentary who kept fruitlessly trying to warn her friends about what was happening to them (but no-one would listen). My ex's situation is kind of painful to watch.

In watching the documentary, I also ended up thinking of my biological mother. She had strong BPD traits, and may well have qualified for a diagnosis of BPD. She got sucked in by my biological father, who was something of a monster and very narcissistic (probably qualifying for a diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder). He basically created a cult around himself, gathering a harem of young women who followed all his orders. They all lived in a farmhouse. Sort of Charles Mansonish. He was incredibly abusive. Luckily, I was given up for adoption at birth, so I never met him. I have half-siblings that I'm in touch with who weren't that lucky.

This is an interesting conversation for sure. I would say though that it still very much depends on the individual instead of using a broad stroke of saying BPD sufferers are more susceptible to manipulation. There are also different forms of manipulation and the BPD sufferers may be more susceptible to certain forms of manipulation, but not all just the same as NT's.

Just food for thought. I personally think this is a great dialogue to open and continue. Thank you for sharing and getting this going Pensive.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

[Pensive1]

Thanks for your comments SC. Yes, there are definitely nuances.

I came across an old BPDfamily forum thread asking “Are BPDs easily manipulated?”
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=285314.0;all

Googling around, I see that this question/theme is discussed quite a lot on various forums and in articles. The more common opinion (from both people with and without BPD) seems to be that people with BPD are more manipulable. But there are certainly people who hold otherwise.

A typical example of a comment I came across from someone with BPD:
“What people with BPD wish FPs [favorite persons] knew about living with this disorder?
M: I wish they knew how fragile we are, how easily manipulated or taken advantage of we are, and I wish they would be cautious of that.”

I tend to think that in general, people with BPD may be more manipulable than average. But I think maintaining control might generally be difficult given BPD volatility, engulfment fears, etc.

I also looked up articles on risk factors for joining cults.

In an article on Bustle, psychologist Dr. Perpetua Neo listed nine personality traits that confer susceptibility to joining cults: 1. people who want to feel validated (having a dire need for validation/approval), 2. people who are seeking an identity (who feel their identity isn’t stable), 3. people who are looking for someone to follow or emulate, 4. people who are seeking meaning, 5. people who have schizotypal thinking, 6. people who are highly suggestible, 7. people who tend to blame others (don’t take responsibility for their own actions), 8. people who are always angry, and 9. people who have very low self-worth.

To my eye, five of the nine (1, 2, 7, 8, 9) match common BPD traits. However, I wouldn’t weight this psychologist’s opinion too heavily, since it’s not the result of a scientific study, etc.

I came across a few scientific articles on cult joining, but none of them included proper psych diagnoses of the cult joiners studied. But given the characteristics found to be risk factors, I wouldn’t be surprised if cult membership was enriched for people with BPD.

In “Cult membership: What factors contribute to joining or leaving?” (2017), the authors noted:
“Members presented with social and affective vulnerability….
we highlighted a high prevalence of psychiatric and addictive disorders during the year preceding commitment to the group: anxiety disorders (51.6%), mood disorders (45.2%) and addictions (12.9%)….
a problematic familial relationship that exists before joining the cultic group could be a vulnerability factor for commitment (Buxant et al., 2007). Almost 23% of members had notable conflicts with their family during the year preceding the commitment.”

In “Joining and leaving a new religious movement: A study of ex-members’ mental health” (2008), the authors write:
“some previously existing vulnerabilities reported by members (insecure attachment in childhood, few social relationships, negative life events)….
In our previous study on NRM members (Buxant et al., 2007), participants reported a fragile past, i.e., insecure attachment history, high need for closure, and depressive tendencies….
On average, participants reported an insecure parental attachment in their childhood, both with the father and with the mother.”

As an aside I’ll mention that my one full biological sibling has severe BPD and belongs to a cult.

[seekingtheway]

I mean, it would make sense given one of the major BPD traits is an unstable sense of self, so it seems very likely they are open to be manipulated and influenced by whoever they are spending time with. Plus the lack of boundaries as you mention and the intense fear of abandonment - I can imagine it's the perfect cocktail of traits to be very much manipulated.

I think that explains why a BPD/NPD pairing is quite common?

My ex talks about his previous ex as a narcissist (he monkeybranched from me to her and then back to me again, so I never really know whether to trust this description of her!), but I do see in his interactions with other people how easy it is to manipulate him, and if I were of the manipulating type, I would know how to get him where it hurts.