Is this a good idea?

[Depression = 72% of members]

Short recap of previous episodes: my brother is BPD, our relationship is currently very damaged and consists in him having me blocked on Whatsapp, avoiding meeting me and sending emails full of threats and insults. He currently lives at my parents place, he hates it,  but he has no money and no place to go, and no intention to do anything in his life that has a substantial probability of seeing him change this situation.

My question is what to do about this, given that my parents are suffering a lot because of this. They have not kicked him out yet for at least 2 reasons: one is I think they suffer at the idea of being the ones sending him to live most likely under a bridge for some time. The other is that the law in our country is such that he might be sent back to live with them, as despite being in his 40s he has no economic independence. So were they to have to live with him despite having kicked him out would be even worse! 

My mom is very strict on the idea she will not finance him any more, apart from giving him the money to leave (and live until the first salary) if he shows them a work contract. At the moment, this means there is no prospect for the situation to change. But she wants to be strict, as otherwise she thinks he would take the opportunity to keep asking more.

Because there is no prospect of the situation changing on either side, I am tempted to talk with my mom to try to convince her about a plan, though I know she would not be into it most likely. I wanted to ask here what everybody thinks about this.

My plan would be to propose a deal with my brother: I would book a room for him to live in, paying for the first six months. My mom would pay for his living expenses for six months. In the meantime, he would have time to get a job (any) and be ready to live on his own.

My conditions:
1) he promises to go back to treatment. He has a diagnosis (though he never told me explicitly if it is for BPD) but has completely stopped treatment for the past year, and this has meant the situation has deeply worsened.
2) Once the six months are over, he will not be taken back at home, nor we will give him further money.

I would make sure to write him an email explaining all this and making it clear that I love him and we will be happy to spend time together once he feels we can, but that the current situation is highly toxic for both him and us, and so my proposal is just to give him a way of achieving independence.

The reason why I think my parents will be against it, is that I think they will say that giving him anything will mean enabling him, and there will be no coming back.
Also, he is currently being incredibly hurtful towards me and my loved ones, and me coming up with a plan such as this to help him would seem like rewarding his hostility towards me.
But my point of view is that the current situation is a lose-lose for everyone, and there is no chance it will improve. So my suggestion would be a chance, with the obvious caveat we would then have to be very strong to stick with it.

What do you all honestly think? Need any further info from me?

[Strawberry29]

Short recap of previous episodes: my brother is BPD, our relationship is currently very damaged and consists in him having me blocked on Whatsapp, avoiding meeting me and sending emails full of threats and insults. He currently lives at my parents place, he hates it,  but he has no money and no place to go, and no intention to do anything in his life that has a substantial probability of seeing him change this situation.

My question is what to do about this, given that my parents are suffering a lot because of this. They have not kicked him out yet for at least 2 reasons: one is I think they suffer at the idea of being the ones sending him to live most likely under a bridge for some time. The other is that the law in our country is such that he might be sent back to live with them, as despite being in his 40s he has no economic independence. So were they to have to live with him despite having kicked him out would be even worse! 

My mom is very strict on the idea she will not finance him any more, apart from giving him the money to leave (and live until the first salary) if he shows them a work contract. At the moment, this means there is no prospect for the situation to change. But she wants to be strict, as otherwise she thinks he would take the opportunity to keep asking more.

Because there is no prospect of the situation changing on either side, I am tempted to talk with my mom to try to convince her about a plan, though I know she would not be into it most likely. I wanted to ask here what everybody thinks about this.

My plan would be to propose a deal with my brother: I would book a room for him to live in, paying for the first six months. My mom would pay for his living expenses for six months. In the meantime, he would have time to get a job (any) and be ready to live on his own.

My conditions:
1) he promises to go back to treatment. He has a diagnosis (though he never told me explicitly if it is for BPD) but has completely stopped treatment for the past year, and this has meant the situation has deeply worsened.
2) Once the six months are over, he will not be taken back at home, nor we will give him further money.

I would make sure to write him an email explaining all this and making it clear that I love him and we will be happy to spend time together once he feels we can, but that the current situation is highly toxic for both him and us, and so my proposal is just to give him a way of achieving independence.

The reason why I think my parents will be against it, is that I think they will say that giving him anything will mean enabling him, and there will be no coming back.
Also, he is currently being incredibly hurtful towards me and my loved ones, and me coming up with a plan such as this to help him would seem like rewarding his hostility towards me.
But my point of view is that the current situation is a lose-lose for everyone, and there is no chance it will improve. So my suggestion would be a chance, with the obvious caveat we would then have to be very strong to stick with it.

What do you all honestly think? Need any further info from me?

[TelHill]

Hi Strawberry,

I don't know if it is. I know a pwBPD will continue to do what they want. Most of the time they don't choose treatment or snap out of it. This is my experience with my dBPD mom who's refused treatment and refuted all common sense pleas to her from her h, son and me to stop her abusive treatment.  I don't know if her abusive behavior is part of the illness or is due to a wrongheaded belief  that therapy will expose her as a shameful, terrible human being worthy of being abandoned forever by us.

I'm sorry for you and your parents. I hope you guys find some peace of mind.

[Strawberry29]

Many thanks Tel Hill!
Yeah, I am starting to think that treatment should be a suggestion, more than a condition. I think it would simply be a way to kick him out giving him 6 months not to end up in the streets. Whether he will then go to therapy or not it will be totally up to him.
I still have a week to think whether it is worth discussing this with my parents... Will keep thinkibng, thanks!

[kells76]

Hey Strawberry29;

How'd it go to think things through? Any insights or "aha" moments for you?

[Strawberry29]

Upping this thread for two reasons: to give an update and because in doing so I realised I missed kells comment!

Few weeks after I posted this, I had a conversation with my brother where he kept complaining about the usual things (being mistreated by mom, being her scapegoat, being miserable, etc etc). I once again challenged him as to why him, a man in his 40s, would live at home with them if it was such a hell. He used the "got no money excuse", so that's when I finally proposed what I was talking about here, i.e. to help him for few months to live on his own while looking for a job, etc. I did not include treatment as a condition, but I did say that I could cover treatment expenses if he intended to go back to clinic.

Unsurprisingly, I was probably wrong and it did not go that well. He started asking other things, always offering to replace my offer with something else, and lashing out at me if I refused. He also suddenly started claiming he had fixed his relationship with mom and didn't need to leave any more... Only just to revert back when a new possible excuse to stay home emerged.

Every now and then he mentions this thing as "him leaving home for few months" rather than "him moving from living at home to build his own life" on his own. Yesterday, this whole thing exploded when he asked me to give him money for enrolling in a English course, claiming it was key for his future. The background is that in the past I spent hours teaching him English myself. I told him that if he wanted to study it there were countless free resources and that I would not give him these money and he started again with all of the usual shenanigans, that I was avid, that I said I would help him but then I didn;t, and blabla. Then started claiming I had changed my offer for help, while I kept it absolutely fixed. When I told him I would help him transitioning into living on his own he started saying that I was destroying his hopes of a better future and bla bla...

So the TLDR is: I am not sure anymore this will go as I hoped, and, as often happens, people like Tells who had commented earlier can predict better than I do what will happen without even knowing my brother! I am now a bit out of options for how to help him, and I don't want him to use me to keep doing what he is currently doing either, so I will keep being strict on what I offer him and what not.

[CC43]

Strawberry,

You seem like a loving and caring sibling, as well as someone who has your parents' best interests at heart.  I know your plan sounds rational, and very generous, giving your brother a full six months to try to get his life on track.

Alas, if he has untreated BPD, I suspect your plan won't work very well.  First, though he complains about his homelife, he's probably content with it.  I bet he as next to zero responsibilities, doesn't help with chores and doesn't contribute to rent/mortgage payments.  If that's the case, what is his motivation to change?  He has what he thinks he wants--no responsibilities, free spending money, and people to look after him.  If his parents haven't asked him to leave by his 40s, why would anything change now?  The status quo is very comfortable to him, in the sense that he resists change, because change is hard.  Leaving the parental home is probably fraught with many issues:  having to find a job, having to pay rent (eventually), and feeling "abandoned" because he has to live alone and fend for himself.  If he has never done this before, I could see why he would be resistant to a significant "downgrade" of his lifestyle.  Plus, if he has BPD, he might have an unstable view of himself and his persona.  Is he good with his hands?  Is he good with computers?  Is he good at managing people?  Can he organize things?  He probably doesn't even know, so the idea of finding a job that fits his skills set and that will pay the rent likely sounds too daunting.  And if he has BPD, he probably has low distress tolerance.  Under stress, he'll self-destruct.

I bet he's angry with himself for these failings, but because that's too painful for him to admit, he takes his anger out on you.  He'll hate you for pushing him to change, or he'll debate the terms of the deal, or he might dredge up supposed cruel treatment from childhood.  Ironically, he probably resents his parents for making him feel so dependent.  Whatever you do, he won't see how you are giving loving support, trying to help him become an independent adult, and let your parents live their lives.  He might think, you're trying to destroy HIS comfortable life.  Even if deep down he knows the plan is to help him get on his feet, the notion is so painful because it could be an indictment on him, in his failure to launch.  Instead of dealing with guilt, he'll get mad.

It's hard to say what to do, without knowing more of his history.  At first blush, I'd say that if he's a layabout and completely dependent on his parents at age 40, the notion that he'll find a place, get a job, support himself and learn to live independently, all at once, seems like a lot of major changes to tackle simultaneously.  Maybe advancing in baby steps would be more realistic.  I'd also avoid shelling out too much money, until he demonstrates a commitment to getting on a path towards independence.  Maybe he starts with a part-time job while living with his parents.  If he shows he can do that successfully for a period of time (maybe three months), then he might move to full-time work.  Or maybe he could continue with the part-time job, but take a class or two at night school.  And once he demonstrates that he can handle full-time schedule, then maybe you could help him pay for some of the rent on his own apartment.

I'd also encourage you to ensure that any launch plan for your brother requires him to have "skin in the game."  So if he wants tuition for education or training, he has to pay part of it.  You can decide how much (half? 25%?).  But I'd say, make sure he pays his part in cash, and don't lend him the money up front.  In my experience with pwBPD, if you pay for the entirety of the course/training up front, they might quit, and they will likely never pay you back.  At least if they pay a decent part of the tuition, they will think twice about giving up too easily.

[js friend]

Hi Strawberry,

I like your ideas but your brother has deep seated abandonment issues so it would be really difficult for him to even think about the idea of living alone. My dd left home at 17yo and has always lived with someone and It is also the reason why she has so many live in b/f's. She has also lived with room mates that also didnt work out as she didnt want to do any housework or pull her weight...yet she hates to be alone.
Maybe some more  therapy would be more successful for your brother if he is agreement with this. The problem I see is that he will need plenty of support and what will you really be prepared to do if he doesnt find work  or isnt able to support himself after 6 months? Do you think you will you be emotionally strong enough not to give him more money?
I think finding a good bpd therapist  is very important when working with a pwbpd and they could make him see that he can have a good future outside of living at home with your parents.

[Notwendy]

Hi Strawberry-
I will propose looking at this a bit differently. The focus is on your brother having the issue and your parents, being the passive victims of your brother's behavior. You are trying to step in and do something to help fix this- for your brother and also your parents.

Do you recognize the roles on the Karpman triangle? Who is the perpetrator ( probem), who is the victim, and who is the rescuer.

In actuality- all roles are dysfunctional. The whole pattern is dysfunctional but it "works" in your family. Families where there is a person with a disorder tend to arrange themselves in patterns. Each person has a part in it. The family exists this way as a whole and somehow, even if it is dysfunctional, this is the familiar and most comfortable pattern.

Rarely, adults in this pattern are not true victims. Victims don't have choices and they are dependent. Potential true victims are children, or elderly, or infirm and they don't have choices.

Everyone in this situation is an adult. My guess is that your role as fixer and helper is instinctual- but you know, it backfires. This is because every role on the Karpman triangle leads to victim. If you try to rescue your parents from your brother- they will somehow not let it work. If you try to rescue your brother, it won't work.

This is going to feel uncomfortable to you because it's not your usual role: Get off the triangle. You can't fix your brother, you can't rescue your parents. Your brother is an adult and if he chooses to do something to change- he will find a way to do it himself. If your parents wanted to have a different arrangement, they would choose to do it themselves.

Your plan to help your brother involves some money. If you have extra funds and want to help- put that money away in a savings or investment. There may be a time when a parent needs some help with caregiving (when they are older) or you want to do something with it for yourself. I would say that investing it in your brother is not going to bring much return for that.

By not rescuing, you open the door to the possibility your brother or parents might consider changing, even if that possibility is very small. By rescuing, they aren't invested themselves and that possibility becomes zero, or close to it.

[Strawberry29]

Thanks all for your responses.

@CC43: This all makes sense, and I think you got almost everything right. The only thing that makes me hopeful is that in the past he did live on his own for a while. He did have a job for a while (although he still needed some help with expenses etc).
His plan at the moment is similar to what you say, so he's looking for a job from home before moving out. But I am worried he cannot find one in his field, as he's been out of a job for almost 4 years now... And so there aren't many jobs he could do from home. because of where he lives, it is almost impossible for him to find a job without leaving home, as they are practically in the middle of the mountains and he has no car. (The other day one of his weird demands was that I was supposed to buy him a motorcycle...).

@jsfriend: yes, that is one of the things he actually did tell me openly, that he needs to live with someone. We said he would find a houseshare, so that he would have mates. He did that a couple of years ago when he was away from home for few weeks.
I am not sure I would be in a position to help him much more than the promised 6 months. I think I would keep my offer just slightly below my possibilities, so that I could offer just one or two more months more "without appeal". For the therapist, he seems to have finally started seeing one last month, although I know nearly nothing about it... FIngers crossed.

@Notwendy: thanks, yes, the Karpman triangle is something I learnt about quite a lot thanks to this forum. I have left some of these dynamics some time ago, and even the offer in this post was from almost a year ago.  Now not sure I would do everything in the same way. My parents to be honest don't want to be helped, and I respect that. This was really just a plan to get my brother moving and I do see all the problems you all mention... Yet, I don't see any way out for him without my help, but perhaps I should stop thinking it... And let him find a way out!

BTW, I have now completely stopped accepting any request from him, and will just stick with my original offer (because I did make it and I will keep my word on that). I suspect he will not even take that offer, TBH.

[Notwendy]

I think that it's important for you to have a boundary on your helping him. I think it's hard to not hope that this time things will be different. However, past behavior is the better predictor of future behavior. If you go with your offer, I think you would need to be prepared for what you will do if it doesn't work and he comes back to you for more help.

Sometimes the best way to "help" is to allow a person to face the consequences of their own behavior and figure out a solution themselves. Sometimes stepping in to help keeps them from learning how to do this themselves if they had to. In this situation, it's not really helping. Should we ever step in to help someome?- sometimes helping is the right thing to do but we need to be able to discern the difference.