If you do NOT have BPD, are incapable of understanding BPD

[kosteckiamber]

I think that all of you who are answering this question, if you do NOT have BPD, are incapable of understanding BPD.

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PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[kosteckiamber]

It's funny how you all seem to think that you are right about this when you actually have NO IDEA what you are talking about. If you do not have BPD, you are INCAPABLE of understanding it or anything about it. There are 256 variations of BPD. YOU had ONE experience with ONE person with BPD. That does NOT make you an expert in BPD, not at ALL. STOP GENERALIZING BASED ON ONE EXPERIENCE. Stop GUESSING at things you have NO idea about. I am a person with BPD and I have immense amounts of empathy. If I see someone suffering, I recognize the feeling and I feel that feeling along with that person, and then I help that person. Do all of you do that?? I doubt it. YOU ARE THE ONES WHO HAVE NO EMPATHY. LOOK AT HOW YOU'RE TALKING. STOP DEBATING WHETHER YOU "THINK" THOSE WITH BPD HAVE EMPATHY OR NOT AND START LOOKING AT YOURSELF AND YOUR TOTAL LACK OF EMPATHY. YOU ARE THE ONES WITH NO EMPATHY. START LOOKING IN THE MIRROR AT YOUR OWN HORRIBLE REFLECTION.

[Skip]

I am a person with BPD and I have immense amounts of empathy. If I see someone suffering, I recognize the feeling and I feel that feeling along with that person, and then I help that person. Do all of you do that?? I doubt it.

Hi 'Amber,

I think a lot of members here are suffering (as are their partners) and we are here help these families. That is our mission (see here). "We are about preserving families. The more marriages repaired, the more mother/child relationships reconnected, the more children we help grow up in a loving home, the better."

Not all questions asked or discussed here in the messageboard result in research-quality answers... that is the nature of peer support... people are learning. But to your point, no "group" should be characterized as always having empathy or not ever having empathy; not "People with BPD" and not members here.

"People with BPD" is a very loose term, as not only are there variables in its presentation, and many of the people discussed here are subclinical - they have some BPD traits and are below the threshold for diagnosis. And equally, the same can be said about members here - it's not a homogeneous group - there are very mature and balanced members, and there are members with personality disorder traits, depression, addictions, etc.

Certainly, the articles and videos here are substantial as they result from expert interviews, studies, and input from our advisors (some with a BPD diagnosis and experience as educators). There are several hundred members here that are practicing mental health professionals. There are also members here who are authors, clergy, etc. There are many healthcare providers that refer patients and clients here to supplement their treatment.

Some professionals rank inherent empathy using a 5-level scale. Empathy can degrade situationally - like in times of crisis - and almost everyone here (as well as most of their partners) has dealt with crisis.

Anyway, your reaction today is strong. What is going on?

[SaltyDawg]

It's funny how you all seem to think that you are right about this when you actually have NO IDEA what you are talking about. If you do not have BPD, you are INCAPABLE of understanding it or anything about it. There are 256 variations of BPD. YOU had ONE experience with ONE person with BPD. That does NOT make you an expert in BPD, not at ALL. STOP GENERALIZING BASED ON ONE EXPERIENCE. Stop GUESSING at things you have NO idea about. I am a person with BPD and I have immense amounts of empathy. If I see someone suffering, I recognize the feeling and I feel that feeling along with that person, and then I help that person. Do all of you do that?? I doubt it. YOU ARE THE ONES WHO HAVE NO EMPATHY. LOOK AT HOW YOU'RE TALKING. STOP DEBATING WHETHER YOU "THINK" THOSE WITH BPD HAVE EMPATHY OR NOT AND START LOOKING AT YOURSELF AND YOUR TOTAL LACK OF EMPATHY. YOU ARE THE ONES WITH NO EMPATHY. START LOOKING IN THE MIRROR AT YOUR OWN HORRIBLE REFLECTION.

I noticed you also posted a similar message here on a different thread - I will respond to you here only.

I think that all of you who are answering this question, if you do NOT have BPD, are incapable of understanding BPD.

Kosteckiamber,

First of all I would like to welcome you to BPD Family, I did look at your profile, and you registered here in 2021, it is now 2024, this was a few years ago.  I am wondering if you have been reading all of these post by persons who are looking for help in how to deal with their person(s) with BPD, and one or more of these post have triggered you, as a borderline?

This site is intended to support those who live with people with BPD diagnosed or undiagnosed, and as such, what is often posted here is the hurt being expressed by those being hurt by a person with BPD, and that can seem very overwhelming to a person with BPD, such as yourself.  These people are expressing their perceived (what they feel) version of their truth, just as you have expressed your version of your perceived (what you feel) truth in these two posts.

I would like to bring to your attention a statement that you made, specifically "YOU had ONE experience with ONE person with BPD. That does NOT make you an expert in BPD, not at ALL. STOP GENERALIZING BASED ON ONE EXPERIENCE."  I am going to push back on your statement.  I have been romantically involved with two pwBPD, I have a child who has 5/9 symptoms (too young to diagnose), I had a licensed therapist who told me she had BPD, and I have been hit on (with a wedding band on my finger) by another who said she was BPD, and a few others that I suspect had BPD as well.  I have also done volunteer work with several others that have admitted to me that they are BPD.  Simply put, my personality type, attracts borderlines, like a flame at night attracts moths.  Making a generalization that we each only had ONE person, is a distortion of the facts, that many of us have had more than one relationship with a borderline.

You also said, "There are 256 variations of BPD" - while that is mathematically true; however, depending on which literature one looks at there is thought to be 4 to 8 different types of borderlines.  I have also spent quite a bit of time on a facebook group run by borderlines, for borderlines, and have intently observed their feelings and behaviors and have compared and contrasted that to what I have experienced with the borderlines in my life.  This group seems to think there are 8 different types of pwBPD.

I have noticed that most borderlines, have one or more comorbidities, and that really increases the number of variations, and when you factor in the intensity levels of each of the symptom groups (some symptoms list 2 or more symptoms, I believe 13 are listed in the 9 symptoms of the DSM 5, as they are separated with the word "OR").  My exgf had symptoms of both BPD, NPD, and other mental health issues; whereas, my wife has symptoms of BPD, OCPD, and other mental health issues.  I won't even guess the number of differences and variations - it is not my place to do so.

I will validate your statement "STOP GENERALIZING BASED ON ONE EXPERIENCE".  There are a lot of differences between the pwBPD I have been with.  One was morbidly obese, another is very thin, and another is somewhere in between.  One is valedictorian smart, the other barely passed high-school, and another has multiple doctoral degrees.  One is decent with money, the other will spend everything she had and went bankrupt.  One is a neat freak, the other a slob.  One cheated on me every opportunity she got, and my wife is on the opposite end of this spectrum and is intensely loyal.  Like people in society, borderlines exist on a spectrum from one extreme to another or somewhere in between.  I will not generalize a borderline, as some are clearly better off than others.  Again, casting the accusation that I 'generalize' is a distortion of your perception of the facts of me, a person whom you have never met.

However, I do look at the symptom sets of BPD, as a generalization that characterizes BPD as "A persistent pattern of unstable relationships, self-image, and emotions (ie, emotional dysregulation) and pronounced impulsivity" - and use the DSM 5 as my guide in making an assessment of these generalizations.

Regarding your statement "Stop GUESSING at things you have NO idea about".  Unless I say that I am guessing, I base my opinions strictly on observation, there is no guesswork in that.  If I do not understand things, I do research it, so I can have a pretty good idea of what I am dealing with.  So I will also pushback on your statement "if you do NOT have BPD, are incapable of understanding BPD".  I will expand that I do have caretaker and some codependent traits, which share some of the symptoms of BPD including the core 'fear of abandonment' symptom, so I feel as though I do have some understanding of BPD, as I have experienced a more mild form of some of those symptoms.  I do understand that borderlines, experience their emotions much more powerfully, when it is good it is really good, and when it is bad, it is really bad.  From my perception, they have a multiplier on their emotions in comparison to a normal person - can you confirm or deny this?  Why do you think this?

You seem to have focused your thoughts on EMPATHY, or my lack thereof.  I personally believe that some borderlines have a lot of empathy, while others do not.  When you stated "If I see someone suffering, I recognize the feeling and I feel that feeling along with that person, and then I help that person. Do all of you do that?? I doubt it."  I have no doubt you have empathy based on how you have described yourself, as it seems that you have a really good understanding of what others are going through.  I do volunteer work, as I've been told I understand them completely, so I feel that I do have a lot of empathy as I have been told I do, I will let my actions, not my words show my empathy towards others, including you.

Circling back to 'generalizations', I would like for you to comment on the generalizations that you feel we are doing, and we can start a constructive dialog, rather than a destructive one on the topic.

While I have not met you, nor have conversed with you, so I can only guess how you are feeling based solely on the generalizations of the symptoms listed in the DSM 5.

I know you said to 'stop guessing' - I have a bit of a rebel streak in me, so I would like to make a few guesses as I am up for a challenge - I would like for you to tell me how well I guessed your feelings, since we have never met?

+You likely have a feeling of emptiness inside, and what I have and others have done here, we have done nothing to alleviate your feeling of emptiness and you feel as though we have no empathy towards you or other borderlines.
+You often have feelings that people you trust will leave you, even though some of them are still in your life.
+You will feel really good about someone, and feel super close to them and happy.  And then they do something that you don't like, and then you want nothing to do with them because you hate what they have done, and you are either thinking or actually calling them all kinds of bad names.  This can last anywhere from an hour or two to a few days, but less than a week.
+More than likely, you have thought about ending your life on more than one occasion.

These are all guesses based on generalizations on what I have learned, that have been described in the DSM 5.  How did I do?  I look forward to your responses.

In any event, no matter why you are here - please be kind to yourself with self care, whatever that might look like for you.

Take care.

SD

[Pook075]

I am a person with BPD and I have immense amounts of empathy. If I see someone suffering, I recognize the feeling and I feel that feeling along with that person, and then I help that person. Do all of you do that??

Hello Amber and welcome.

Quick question- do you see anyone suffering on this website?  

Every post relates to someone trying to repair a BPD relationship in their life.  Surely your enhanced empathy can see that many of our members are deeply hurt, lost, and looking for answers.

You have said that we (as a community) have it wrong.  Fair enough.  You also said that you want to help those who are suffering.  That's fantastic, since there's an endless supply of those here who are suffering on this site.

I also noticed that you mentioned "feelings" several times, how you can recognize and relate to them.  That's an awesome trait to have.  But what if those feelings are the source of the problem to begin with?  As an expert on BPD and empathy, surely you must see that sometimes a BPD's feelings can sabotage relationships.

Amber, every member here is trying to repair a relationship with a BPD spouse, parent, sibling, or child.  They're all looking for better communication techniques to move past arguments and get back to loving the BPD in their life.

I'm curious though, are you really here to help? All I felt from your initial post was blame, and that's not particularly helpful or empathetic.  Because while your feelings certainly matter, just like every person with BPD, the same is true for Non-BPD individuals as well.  Your feelings do not give you a free pass to hurt other people's feelings...that's not empathy at all.

There is a clinical word for that but I won't share it here.

[jaded7]

It's funny how you all seem to think that you are right about this when you actually have NO IDEA what you are talking about. If you do not have BPD, you are INCAPABLE of understanding it or anything about it. There are 256 variations of BPD. YOU had ONE experience with ONE person with BPD. That does NOT make you an expert in BPD, not at ALL. STOP GENERALIZING BASED ON ONE EXPERIENCE. Stop GUESSING at things you have NO idea about. I am a person with BPD and I have immense amounts of empathy. If I see someone suffering, I recognize the feeling and I feel that feeling along with that person, and then I help that person. Do all of you do that?? I doubt it. YOU ARE THE ONES WHO HAVE NO EMPATHY. LOOK AT HOW YOU'RE TALKING. STOP DEBATING WHETHER YOU "THINK" THOSE WITH BPD HAVE EMPATHY OR NOT AND START LOOKING AT YOURSELF AND YOUR TOTAL LACK OF EMPATHY. YOU ARE THE ONES WITH NO EMPATHY. START LOOKING IN THE MIRROR AT YOUR OWN HORRIBLE REFLECTION.

I can see you are upset. Like others have said, there are a lot of people here that are upset with how their relationships with a BPD loved one have gone, or are going. There is a lot of pain in these boards, and a lot of empathy from others. We help each other, a lot, we support each other.

I imagine it feels like people are demonizing those with BPD.

One of the criteria of a BPD diagnosis is 'a pattern of unstable relationships'. We were or are in those relationships, which were/are by definition unstable and hurtful. So we're trying to figure things out. This is mutual support.

I think you know one need not have BPD in order to understand it. There are thousands and thousands of highly qualified therapists and academics who understand it very well. There are thousands here who have read the work of these therapists and academics. As Skip points out, there are therapists here on the boards who contribute. Therapists send clients here, for support and understanding.

I wish you well, as I'm sure all others here do.

[Notwendy]

YOU ARE THE ONES WITH NO EMPATHY. START LOOKING IN THE MIRROR AT YOUR OWN HORRIBLE REFLECTION.

I once saw a post that said "hurting people hurt others" and there is truth to that. Someone may have the capacity for empathy but it's difficult to have empathy when someone themselves, is experiencing their own emotional pain. That isn't only specific to pwBPD. If you notice- the first intitial stands for "people". You and all of us here, and all pwBPD are people.

Posters come here because they are personally experiencing emotional pain in their relationships. In order for others to understand what is going on, they first share their story. You are correct if you think these stories aren't especially empathetic to someone with BPD. This is because the posters are hurting. They need to be able to express these feelings and this is a place where they can do that.

However, every relationship is a function of two people and posters here also is encouraged to look in the mirror at their own part of it. By reducing our part of the drama, perhaps that can allow us the emotional space to feel other emotions such as empathy.

The majority of the posters here are in some kind of relationship with someone with BPD. I think it would be very hard to have read all these posts if someone has BPD. But the reason people are here is that the pwBPD is significant to them. We care about them. If we didn't- we wouldn't be on this board as we would not want a relationship with them at all. But we do. But first, we need a space to vent and share our perspectives.

You are correct in that we can't share your experience of having BPD exactly as you do. But I think we witness it and often stand on the outside, wishing we could somehow relieve that pwBPD of their emotional pain and we feel helpless and powerless. I have witnessed my BPD mother's emotional pain. Yet she doesn't seem able to perceive our efforts to help her- because she is overwhelmed by it. If she has capacity for empathy- she can't access it when she's overwhelmed. And since she's a "hurting person" she hurts others- because she is human. And if we feel hurt, it's possible we have acted in ways that feel hurtful to her.

It's interesting that she says something similar to your post as she says we "don't understand her pain" and she does feel other people are not empathetic to her. So Amber, I admitedly don't know exactly how you feel or even understand it in the way you do, and perhaps I can not show you empathy in a way that you might perceive it, but we are trying to understand.   I do know that someone with BPD is a significant person to me. Everyone who posts here does so because someone with BPD matters to them.  And you are also a significant person to others too who matters to them.

[EyesUp]

Hello Amber,

I'm almost reluctant to chime in because you've already received some interesting/thoughtful/provocative responses. I hope it's ok if I add a few comments...

Long before I learned about B-Cluster disorders or discovered this site, I struggled to understand what was going on with my marriage. I knew something wasn't right, but it was unusually difficult to figure out why we weren't connecting.

Over time, I realized that I was providing a lot of space and support for my pwBPD's feelings - and that her feelings seemed to fill the room, fill our time together, fill our conversations. I was part of the mix, for sure - but so often, it was all about her feelings.  

Over many years, I started to step back to try to see things differently, from a new angle - That's when the idea of "lack of empathy" started to occur to me.  And so I'll be the first to admit that this idea resonated with me when I encountered comments on empathy in BPD literature.  

In my experience, it wasn't that my pwBPD didn't have feelings, or could not perceive other's feelings - rather, it was that her own intense feelings - about anyone, or anything, at any time - didn't seem to leave room for anyone else.  Me, the kids, her family, friends, colleagues - were always secondary to her own, intense, urgent - often negative - feelings.

I think that's just one example of how the idea of "lack of empathy" takes hold with non-BPDs.  It's a sense that BPDs are not in tune with others because their own intense feelings are - at least, at times - overriding everything else.  

And it wasn't a sample size of one, in my experience. As I started to look back on my FOO and other relationships, I started to see patterns of avoidance and confrontation and general communication - which almost certainly contributed to some familiar if not comfortable patterns in my marriage...  and yes, I contributed my fair share to these patterns along the way.  I participate here, in part, to learn how to recognize and break these patterns in my own behavior.

My point is:  When we say that pwBPD often lack empathy, the language is imperfect - it's too generalized. I think what we often mean is: pwBPD have such intense feelings that they often don't demonstrate concern for others' feelings the way non-BPDs might expect.  

Is that a fair expectation? Probably not! We're all different anyway, and none of us are truly mind-readers. Who really knows what anyone else is thinking or feeling...

To your point: Can BPDs perceive happiness or anger in someone else? Of course. Is that empathy? Of course...  It's what happens next that can take non-BPDs by surprise. It can be perfectly "normal" - or it can be intense!  And it's often impossible or at least very difficult to predict what will happen next.

Hopefully it's fair to say that there are some common patterns that we non-BPDs experience as we try to relate to pwBPD...  Perhaps we could do a better job describing it. Generalizations are never perfect.  

[thankful person]

I see you’ve already had many insightful responses. I just wanted to say that I have found bpd family an an amazing group of people who have been extremely supportive in helping me to understand and improve my relationship with my dbpdw. I have learnt so much about how better to communicate with my wife and whilst some of that has included looking after myself better and “standing up to her”, our relationship has definitely improved and my wife is generally much calmer due to what I’ve learnt here.