How to answer concrete yet emotional demands?

[FirstSteps]

Hi.  My wife and I had been in a six month upswing, which seemed to be marked by real change.  But her father died and post-holidays, the impact is really hitting her, which has meant a drastic deterioration.

I'm doing well with all the techniques and strategies I've learned, even as she is "taking a break" from the marriage now because she has to "fight to have my needs recognized."

My question is:  how do people respond when faced with a concrete yet dysregulated question?  Such as:  What are you willing to change?  What does your supposed commitment look like?  Are you open to actual change?

SET and other techniques break down for me here.  I don't want to JADE (which I'm far from perfect at in these situations) but my other response is to go very quiet, which only fuels the conflict and looks to her like I'm stonewalling.

It's a neat verbal trick to put me in a box.  I can't answer "I am breaking myself to validate your needs and be there for you.  I have changed dramatically and I feel you are actually pushing me away and projecting it on to me."  I also don't want to start overapologizing and promising to change more.  That only leads to disaster a week later.

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[Lifehasitsups]

Great and very tough question. I was talking to my T today and we discussed staying curious with what your partner actually needs. Which can be really difficult in the moment especially when you feel you are being pushed away or into a corner. This is something I  practice during and/or after some wild conversations.  FYI - I’ve learned there are many times I am not in the mindset to be as curious as I want to be and then try to have those conversations later…that doesn’t go over well with my spouse.

I am not sure if this strategy applies but maybe useful to some folks out there. When my spouse and I discuss changes or “Safety Plans” we try to have a three part plan. A plan for me, a plan for my spouse, and a plan for the marriage.  That has been kind of a gentle way for everyone to take some responsibility in making changes.

Wish you the best and thanks for posting this question. Looking forward to the thread.

[Lifehasitsups]

P.S. I freaking hate those trick bag questions. It feels every response will be criticized. I can sympathize with you!

[SaltyDawg]

Hi.  My wife and I had been in a six month upswing, which seemed to be marked by real change.  But her father died and post-holidays, the impact is really hitting her, which has meant a drastic deterioration.

FirstSteps,

   It sounds like the death of your wife's father is a really big stressor for her, a first male role model.  When a loved one passes, it is a perceived and actual abandonment for a disordered person, and they can have a lot of issues processing this. 

   I am wondering if your wife might be open to grief counseling, it could be helpful to her.  Also, reassure her that you are there for her to listen to her and offer emotional support for her.

   At least until your wife re-regulates (stops declining) drop the T from SET communication, and focus only on her feelings with support and empathy, as I suspect she is in a form of continual emotional crisis of being abandoned by her father, and if there is any transference/projection on to you, where she fears you might be abandoning her too (real or perceived) you need to reassure her that you are not leaving her.  While you cannot validate you won't die from a heart attack or some other calamity beyond your control (if she is expressing this), by adding "God willing" to "I won't leave you, I am here for you" or something similar in your own words.

I'm doing well with all the techniques and strategies I've learned, even as she is "taking a break" from the marriage now because she has to "fight to have my needs recognized."

Has she expressed what those specific needs are?  You are not a mind reader, and their minds work differently than ours.  I would tactfully ask what specific needs she is referring to. 

My question is:  how do people respond when faced with a concrete yet dysregulated question?  Such as:  What are you willing to change?  What does your supposed commitment look like?  Are you open to actual change?

Those are all valid questions that your wife is posing to you.  We expect our pwBPD to change for us, and those are huge in comparison to what I have done for my wife.  Validate her feelings on each of those.  When my wife asked similar questions, I really had to think, I wrote down lists of what I had already changed (and expressed that list the next time the question came up, stating, I am continuously changing and adapting to your needs by 1 _______  2 _______ 3_______, etc.  Same for the commitment question, cite another list, focusing on the items that you know she will recognize.  The last one "Are you open to actual change"?  That's the tricky one, as your answer will never be good enough - I would suggest by rewording your answer to the first question - this will likely result in a circular argument that can easily become dysregulated.

SET and other techniques break down for me here.  I don't want to JADE (which I'm far from perfect at in these situations) but my other response is to go very quiet, which only fuels the conflict and looks to her like I'm stonewalling.

If I find myself in a circular argument, or my wife is dysregulated/irrational in her conversation - I will interject and indicate, "we seem to be going around in circles and getting nowhere at the moment.  I would like to take a temporary break from this conversation in order to collect my thoughts (or get angry, or any other legitimate excuse you can think of that she would understand) and revisit this topic tomorrow morning [whatever timeframe your wife will re-regulate, mine requires a sleep cycle, so I mention the following morning] when you are ready to talk about it."  I put the ball in her court to bring it up the following morning, so she feels in control, also the topic is usually something not really arguing about, so 90% of the conversations are never revisited, as they really weren't important enough to create drama anyways.

It's a neat verbal trick to put me in a box.  I can't answer "I am breaking myself to validate your needs and be there for you.  I have changed dramatically and I feel you are actually pushing me away and projecting it on to me."  I also don't want to start overapologizing and promising to change more.  That only leads to disaster a week later.

Interesting choice of words that your wife has - this would appear to be deliberate manipulation (not typical for BPD, but is very much NPD/ASPD/ other Cluster-B) vs subconscious / instinctive manipulation which is typical for BPD, where she deliberately puts you on the defensive.  I would suggest rewording her questions into the following statements:  "I am sorry you feel as though you're breaking yourself in order to be there for me."  [you are validating her feelings by only apologizing for what is valid to her, her feelings]   "I want to learn from your example, I would like to hear specifics about those dramatic changes?"  [this shifts the answer to her, and requires her to support her assertion with facts, not feelings]  "I don't see how I am projecting on to you.  I am sorry you feel as though I am pushing you away, when I am here right now for you.  I need help understanding how I am doing this to you, I need facts so that I may know how you expect me to change.  I don't understand how I am not here for you, especially as I am here right now to support you."

In essence, you need to push back, using "I" statements.  Stick to your facts, and force her to express her version of facts.  Be prepared for additional pushback, as borderlines, more often than not express a distorted version of facts to fit her feelings.

I hope this makes sense to you, if not, I will try and reframe it.

Be sure to do self-care whatever that might look like for you.

Take care.

SD

[Pook075]

My question is:  how do people respond when faced with a concrete yet dysregulated question?  Such as:  What are you willing to change?  What does your supposed commitment look like?  Are you open to actual change?

Q- What are you willing to change?
A- I love you and want to grow closer by working through this together.

Q- What does your supposed commitment look like?
A- My commitment is to you and I'm right here. Tell me what I can do that would help.

Q- Are you open to actual change?
A- I am open to change and strengthening our relationship. What can I do?

These are all the same questions- will you change?  And they all get the same answer- yes.  It's genuine as well and stops rocking the boat.  Do you love her?  yes  Do you want to stop arguing?  yes  Do you want it to work?  yes  So you're willing to change.

Now, I can imagine that you'd wonder, what about her...she needs to change more than me!  I agree.  But when you lead with calmness and empathy, she calms down and is more receptive.  When you lead with blame, she's less receptive and more vindictive. 

You are the adult in the room, the one without mental illness, so it's your job to guide these conversations towards mutual understanding.  Is it fair?  No.  But you're asking to better your relationship and this is the path.  The more you show love and empathy, the less she gets unstable and angry.  This allows her to heal and move on from the chaotic thinking.

[FirstSteps]

Thanks to all.  Great answers and really helpful.  She is definitely projecting on to me after losing her father.  Won't get into her history but he saved her as a child though he was then distant and problematic for a host of reasons the rest of her life.  It was super complicated and it's devastating for him to be gone - especially as she has siblings now acting out in horrible legal ways just to hurt her (I am not exaggerating on this one).

We've stayed surprisingly close through the last months since he passed away, which was a wonderful surprise.  So I'm not shocked that I'm now the focus.  And I want to be supportive and understanding.  I have been actively trying to use SET without the T (an idea I got from your posts SaltyDawg) but she sees that as me distancing myself.  She hates being validated and only feels it if I apologize and am willing to engage in long conversations about why her feelings reflect "true" reality.

This all comes on the heels of years of periodic yet intense emotional and verbal abuse.  Then 1-2 years of separation where I finally set boundaries and established some foundation for staying together for the family and because I did want to give it a chance to work now that I wasn't co-dependent and feeding into the problems.

My point being - she is now coming at me in the softest points.  She is redefining the separation time as essentially me abusing her.  She is returning to yelling, blaming, breaking up -- and telling me that I must accept this or I'm not showing a willingness to change. She refuses to return to therapy herself and will not turn to grief counseling.

I simply don't feel I'm up for another round of a relationship that is never about my needs and that is actively destructive. 

I am not sure if this strategy applies but maybe useful to some folks out there. When my spouse and I discuss changes or “Safety Plans” we try to have a three part plan. A plan for me, a plan for my spouse, and a plan for the marriage.  That has been kind of a gentle way for everyone to take some responsibility in making changes.

This is a great idea though.  I am not great at bringing up tough topics once she has calmed down.  I keep repeating that I want to talk when it can be calm and I can be heard.  But this would add another level of thought to it.

Those are all valid questions that your wife is posing to you.  We expect our pwBPD to change for us, and those are huge in comparison to what I have done for my wife.  Validate her feelings on each of those.  When my wife asked similar questions, I really had to think, I wrote down lists of what I had already changed (and expressed that list the next time the question came up, stating, I am continuously changing and adapting to your needs by 1 _______  2 _______ 3_______, etc.  Same for the commitment question, cite another list, focusing on the items that you know she will recognize.  The last one "Are you open to actual change"?  That's the tricky one, as your answer will never be good enough - I would suggest by rewording your answer to the first question - this will likely result in a circular argument that can easily become dysregulated.

This is also a great way for me to engage without losing myself completely.  I have very little hope it will be received well - there definitely are "personas" she shows that are more actively manipulative - she's a complicated person.  But she has also done a lot of work in the past year so this would have as good a chance as anything of reaching her

You are the adult in the room, the one without mental illness, so it's your job to guide these conversations towards mutual understanding.  Is it fair?  No.  But you're asking to better your relationship and this is the path.  The more you show love and empathy, the less she gets unstable and angry.  This allows her to heal and move on from the chaotic thinking.

And thank you for this Pook075.  I am exhausted from doing this for almost 20 years and not sure I'm up for it any longer.  But I am not leaving yet and that means I want to give it my all.  She does not actually respond well to "normal" love and empathy as I said above.  It provokes her and often her personality shifts a bit into an aggressive and more mean-spirited place.

Again, I think there is a lot going on with her that is all subclinical but hard to pin down.  But despite that, I agree love and empathy are the only way to go.


 

[kells76]

Hey FirstSteps;

Lots to work with here -- thanks for filling us in on the situation and her questions.

Hi.  My wife and I had been in a six month upswing, which seemed to be marked by real change.  But her father died and post-holidays, the impact is really hitting her, which has meant a drastic deterioration.

Yeah, she isn't going to cope well with major stressors. I wouldn't cope well with my dad dying -- and she has fewer resources than a "generally normal" person. It's sad that her mental illness impacts her ability to regulate her emotions, and it's good that you can connect the dots that this downswing isn't about you doing something wrong, or being unsupportive, or the tools "not working".

I'm doing well with all the techniques and strategies I've learned, even as she is "taking a break" from the marriage now because she has to "fight to have my needs recognized."

Did she verbally tell you that she's taking a break from the marriage? How did you respond at the time?

When she says the words "I have to fight to have my needs recognized", what feeling do you think is behind that? Nothing complicated -- more like, if you picture yourself in a position of "having to fight to have your needs recognized", how would you feel? Frustrated? Lonely? Upset?

pwBPD, as you probably know really well, have real feelings, that often aren't directly connected to things happening in reality. So she has real feelings happening inside of her -- I do, you do, we all do -- but because she lacks a strong sense of self, may not be able to put the pieces together of: "These are my feelings, inside of me, coming from me and my emotions." She may look for something outside of herself to "explain" the feelings, and she may put together an explanation for those feelings so that she doesn't sit with unexplained feelings. So her explanation of "I have to fight to have my needs recognized" is an explanation she's constructed to make sense of the feelings inside of her.

The key part for you will be not to validate the explanation (her constructed "facts") but to validate the feelings behind it -- and her feelings are always real and valid.

My question is:  how do people respond when faced with a concrete yet dysregulated question?  Such as:  What are you willing to change?  What does your supposed commitment look like?  Are you open to actual change?

SET and other techniques break down for me here.  I don't want to JADE (which I'm far from perfect at in these situations) but my other response is to go very quiet, which only fuels the conflict and looks to her like I'm stonewalling.

OK. We can work with this.

So she says "What are you willing to change?"

I get that you don't want to escalate things and you also don't want to lie ("Oh, I'll change everything you want, at any moment") or placate to keep the peace.

This is where a balance of integrity, validation, and boundaries may help.

I wouldn't lie about what I'm willing to change. If you think about it, and are honest with yourself, are there areas you'd like to change for the better? Then it's fine to say that. Don't say anything you don't believe -- but don't feel like "oh, because she has BPD, I can't admit to doing anything for her that she wants". If you can honestly say "You know, yeah, I'd be willing to try [listening better, spending more time on dates with you, reading about love languages, etc]", then let her know. And if there isn't any area of life that you're willing to change, then be honest: "Now that you ask, nothing is coming to mind."

I think the real issue might be what happens after that.

Even if you are honest about "Yes, I'd be willing to leave work on time instead of leaving late", what comes next is probably something like: "Yeah, but that isn't actual change" or "Yeah, but that isn't meaningful to me" or "You never ask me what I wanted, you just decided".

This is where it's key to validate the feelings behind her words.

It isn't valid that you never ask her what you want. That's a constructed explanation. You'd be right not to JADE that, too -- don't fight about a construct.

But how would it feel if nobody ever asked you what you wanted? It'd suck!

Validate that: "It would suck to feel like nobody ever asked you what you wanted." Or, "it makes sense that you'd want meaningful change." Or, "I can see how you would want something different."

And leave it there.

It may be uncomfortable for a while. She may keep trying to push. She may have lots of beliefs about how you're doing it wrong, you aren't caring, you never listen, etc. Can you let her feel how she feels, and sit with your own discomfort? She's going to feel lots of things if you make the change of validating the valid feeling and then leaving it in her lap. But how she feels about your choices are her feelings and don't define you.

I think another key part of this approach is that you do have to genuinely care about how she feels. It would hurt to feel like nobody ever asks what you want! If you don't genuinely understand the feeling, and care about how she feels, she'll probably sense that.

It's a neat verbal trick to put me in a box.  I can't answer "I am breaking myself to validate your needs and be there for you.  I have changed dramatically and I feel you are actually pushing me away and projecting it on to me."  I also don't want to start overapologizing and promising to change more.  That only leads to disaster a week later.

Right. Explaining rarely helps, especially when things are already ratcheted up. And you can never overapologize enough or promise enough -- the goalposts move. What you can do is:

be honest about what you are actually willing to do out of love, not resentment or obligation,

genuinely care about how she's feeling despite her low-skill way of communicating it, and validate the feeling, not the constructed explanation,

and be willing to sit with your own discomfort when you validate and then leave the rest in her lap.

Of course, safety is important. If she escalates, validation isn't a tool for deescalation. Boundaries are appropriate, though, as rules to keep you safe. If she starts yelling, verbally abusing you, throwing things, etc, it is OK for your rule for yourself to be: "I don't stay in rooms when there are things being thrown". Or, "when there's yelling, I go take a break elsewhere".

[kells76]

OK, and a bit more 

Thanks to all.  Great answers and really helpful.  She is definitely projecting on to me after losing her father.  Won't get into her history but he saved her as a child though he was then distant and problematic for a host of reasons the rest of her life.  It was super complicated and it's devastating for him to be gone - especially as she has siblings now acting out in horrible legal ways just to hurt her (I am not exaggerating on this one).

That's really good information for you to have, and I'm assuming you don't plan to "explain" to her why she's behaving this way.

We've stayed surprisingly close through the last months since he passed away, which was a wonderful surprise.  So I'm not shocked that I'm now the focus.  And I want to be supportive and understanding.  I have been actively trying to use SET without the T (an idea I got from your posts SaltyDawg) but she sees that as me distancing myself.  She hates being validated and only feels it if I apologize and am willing to engage in long conversations about why her feelings reflect "true" reality.

Can you post a "he said-she said" interaction here? I bet we can find some new angles. (And, her not liking "validation", or only "approving" of it on her own terms, doesn't necessarily mean it's the wrong approach!)

This all comes on the heels of years of periodic yet intense emotional and verbal abuse.  Then 1-2 years of separation where I finally set boundaries and established some foundation for staying together for the family and because I did want to give it a chance to work now that I wasn't co-dependent and feeding into the problems.

My point being - she is now coming at me in the softest points.  She is redefining the separation time as essentially me abusing her.  She is returning to yelling, blaming, breaking up -- and telling me that I must accept this or I'm not showing a willingness to change. She refuses to return to therapy herself and will not turn to grief counseling.

I simply don't feel I'm up for another round of a relationship that is never about my needs and that is actively destructive. 

Yeah, she is going to do that stuff. Her mental illness is on display when she comes up with those "explanations" for her inner feelings. She can believe all day long that you "should" accept abuse or it "proves" you're unwilling to change -- but does that define reality?

When she says that stuff to you, how have you responded so far -- or do you engage with it?

It's also OK to recognize that you may have boundaries that mean that this relationship doesn't work for you any more. If your boundary is "I can't be with a spouse who won't stop insisting I accept abuse", then it might be time to examine if you can stay with integrity.

It is likely that even during good times, she won't be able to meet your needs in the way that "generally normal" partners can -- it's part of the emotional limitations of the disorder. It can also be OK to stay in the relationship if you can protect yourself with boundaries and work to improve connection through validation -- while accepting that she has an "emotional disability".

This is a great idea though.  I am not great at bringing up tough topics once she has calmed down.  I keep repeating that I want to talk when it can be calm and I can be heard.  But this would add another level of thought to it.

The 3-part plan could be helpful for you in organizing your thoughts. A challenge can be that it's difficult with pwBPD to "go back to the past" and bring up past issues. I've heard that for many pwBPD, it's like the past, present, and future are all emotionally "one", so bringing up something that happened a while ago is going to feel "fresh" to them. Sometimes it can help to keep a focus on "moving forward" vs bringing up the past directly. I.e., positive changes can still happen in a relationship based on current changes, versus based on relitigating the past. It isn't always necessary to "clear the air" on history, in order to improve things going forward.

Again, though, if something important to you is getting some closure on tough topics, you may need to decide (a) if you can do that with her (versus with a therapist -- could you maybe achieve closure with a T instead?), and (b) what your goals are. If your goal is to get her to have insight or to change, you may be disappointed. If your goal is to be a person with integrity and that is calling you to bring up the topic, no matter her response, then you can probably meet that goal.

And thank you for this Pook075.  I am exhausted from doing this for almost 20 years and not sure I'm up for it any longer.  But I am not leaving yet and that means I want to give it my all.  She does not actually respond well to "normal" love and empathy as I said above.  It provokes her and often her personality shifts a bit into an aggressive and more mean-spirited place.

Again, I think there is a lot going on with her that is all subclinical but hard to pin down.  But despite that, I agree love and empathy are the only way to go.

Can you post a couple more examples of her not responding well to "normal" love and empathy? Is it physical stuff (hugs, kisses, etc), gifts, verbal stuff...? 

BPD can be pretty weird, and standard approaches often fall flat or explode... as you already know. Maybe we can brainstorm alternatives.

I'll mention that my H's oldest kid can get really reactive to me being calm and empathetic -- her mom has many BPD traits. She does better with straightforward requests and also, weirdly, with debate/argument. I have a lot to learn about how she feels loved!

[SaltyDawg]

My point being - she is now coming at me in the softest points.  She is redefining the separation time as essentially me abusing her.  She is returning to yelling, blaming, breaking up -- and telling me that I must accept this or I'm not showing a willingness to change. She refuses to return to therapy herself and will not turn to grief counseling.

I simply don't feel I'm up for another round of a relationship that is never about my needs and that is actively destructive.

FirstSteps,

Kells has some really good advice, she can say it with a lot more finesse that I can, so I won't repeat it here, but giving specific narratives that you have between her (use a recorder so you can catch the nuances, when you, yourself, are not emotionally charged in reviewing it - don't let her know that you are recording, put an app on your phone, than can record while the screen is dark). 

While I can see that where you seperated from her is perceived as abuse by her (she was abandoned by you, and is a very strong form of stonewalling) - so, yes, you were abusing her, from her perspective, and it definitely felt like it to her.  Perhaps, validate her feeling of being abused by saying something along those lines in your own words using "I" statements.  Example:  "I can see how you feel abused, when I separated from you, where I was not there for you, and I can sense it where I abandoned you.  Yes, I can very much see how this can feel like abuse."   Here you are validating her feelings, and you are taking ownership for making her feel this way, even though you were enacting a boundary so you wouldn't be abused further by her.  You admit your side of the interaction, even though it will be very unlikely she will admit to her side.

You specifically said, "She is returning to yelling, blaming, breaking up -- and telling me that I must accept this or I'm not showing a willingness to change. She refuses to return to therapy herself and will not turn to grief counseling."

Yelling is abuse, and is not acceptable.  Blame shifting is abuse, and is not acceptable.  Threats of her breaking up with is not acceptable - but I will share what worked for me.

Especially the yelling - a firm boundary with consequences that you are willing to set and enforce with escalating consequences.  State them in a cool even tone, without malice using "I" statements, and avoiding "you" statements. 

1.  "I cannot handle being yelled at, as it is very triggering for me, I would like it to stop."; if it continues, then....

2.  "I really don't like being yelled at, I am going to another room, until it stops"; leave and move to another room; if she follows and continues to yell, escalate it again...

3.   "I am getting really upset with all of this yelling, I am not feeling well, I need to excuse myself."  Walk away, you can do one of two things here.  The 'bathroom' de-escalation trick, or leave the marital residence for a period of time.

4.   [optional, only if it works, try it once to see if it will work] Walk to the bathroom, and make grunting noises like a bowel movement, no sane person would engage a person who is taking a difficult dump.  This will only work once, perhaps twice a day.  Stay for a good half hour, or more for things to calm down, read your phone, or do something else until things calm down outside of the toilet.  Be sure to flush the toilet, wash your hands and then come out.  If she yells through the door, pounds on the door with her hands/fists/feet, do not do this one again, or you can do #5, if #4 doesn't work, or if she resume the yelling once you are out of the restroom.

5.   Say, "I am really upset [or not feeling well] right now, I don't want to say anything that might feel abusive.  I am going out for a few hours.  I will definitely be coming back, no later than xx:xx AM/PM.  Take your own vehicle (if you have one, if you don't have public transport, or even on your own two feet) and leave."  You definitely, want to tell them when you are coming back so they will not feel too abandoned.  Return a few minutes prior to the time you said you were going to return, even being late for as little as 15 minutes can send them over the edge with their anxiety, I've seen it numerous times in my own wife, and other borderlines I personally know including a former therapist.

6.  If she tears into you the moment you enter the front door; turn around immediately and leave stating "I am not willing to tolerate being yelled at, I will be back tomorrow [or 2-3 days later]".  Collect your bug-out-bag, perhaps it is already in the trunk/boot of your car, or hidden in a shed, and leave, go to an inexpensive hotel, do some self-care, and return the following day, or two days (depending how long your wife's typical dysregulation takes). 

Needless to say, if it escalates to #6 more than once a month, you need to consider doing another separation.  Likewise, if you reach #5 several times per week, you also need to consider doing another 'abusive' separation.  Explain to your wife when she is regulated, that 'yelling' is a boundary that you will not tolerate, and it will eventually result in another separation if it continues.  Also, you can only enforce the boundaries you are willing to enforce, if you don't the boundary will become meaningless as she will walk right through it, as you will not enforce it.


Shifting focus to being blamed for everything is a bit more difficult.  Usually they do not realize they are doing this, as they are too ashamed to admit any bad behaviors they are doing.  So, what do they do, they shift the blame on to someone else, usually the one(s) that is(are) closest to them.  I have setup a boundary on my wife, she her blame shifting goes towards one of our children instead.  Fortunately my children push back on her too.  My wife is currently somewhat self-aware of her behaviors, before she wasn't and the blame shifting was relentless.  When my wife is regulated, and she blame shifts, I use S.E.T. communication, where I speak my perspective of the truth, and will often reinforce it with factual statements.

For example, if I am blamed for not doing anything around the house (a common complaint of psBPD of their partners).  I will respond with "I hear that you feel that I don't do much around the house, and that can be frustrating for you.  Today, I did 1, 2, 3, 4, etc.  Would you like to share with me what I am not doing to make you feel as though I am not doing anything?"  My wife usually realized, that I do a lot around the home, and will back-off, if she is regulated, if she is not regulated, it will result in circular arguments, and other irrational arguments.


Now, I will address the threats of "breaking up".  Being mindful that this is the 'bettering' board, I will preface this with a word of as you could wind up seperated or worse going through a divorce if your 'bluff' of her perceived 'bluff' is incorrect if you do what I did with my wife with this kind of behaviors. 

If your wife is threatening divorce separation all of the time, for me, I eventually figured out (I'm a slow learner) that they were nothing but empty bluffs intended on manipulating me to become more of her man-servant, doing perpetual acts of service to her and bending me to her irrational will.  The last two threats my wife did, I called her bluff, and informed her, that "I am okay with you wanting to leave, you are more than welcome to pack your stuff and move out"  (she wanted me to move out, I refused).  Pretty much, I gave her a firm indication that I was not willing to deal with these threats anymore, and if she continued threatening, I was genuinely willing to let the relationship go, even though that is not what I wanted - I was indicating to my wife that I was no longer willing to keep the relationship going with that kind of behavior from her - this is something that most borderlines specifically look for in a partner - if their partner is willing to fight for the relationship to work.

This will only work, if your wife has not filed for divorce, and you are reasonably sure that she is bluffing.  So, call her bluff.  However, if she is the type that will escalate, as she cannot lose, then this can be very dangerous as you can wind up being divorced.  My wife has done about 50 such abusive bluffs of divorce / separation, yet she has not called an attorney, and has only done minimal research by asking her gf who is going through a divorce from a uNPD husband.  My ex-dBPD-therapist, did this to her husband on a weekly basis, whenever he would show up from work half an hour or more late - she could not recognize her own behavior was the problem, yet she has been dealing with it since 2006.

If you know she is bluffing, call her bluff.  If you suspect she is bluffing, but unsure, perhaps do a smaller test to see if she will follow through on her bluff.  If she is not bluffing, you will have to do what is best for yourself, whatever that might look like for you.


You do not have to accept the yelling, blaming, and breaking up threats from her.  You do not have to change in order to roll over and willing accept abusive behaviors from her - that is insanity.  I would strongly recommend pushing back with firm boundaries that you are willing to enforce 100% of the time.


With regards to her not seeing any therapy at all, that is 100% on her, as you have encouraged her to go, and she has refused.  You can only shine a light on a good direction for someone to move towards, it is up to them to actually move in that direction.  You can't fix them, even though you can encourage and nudge them in a good direction; however, the bottom line is that they need to do the necessary work, whatever that work might be.


I wish you the best of luck, and if you have more questions, please ask, being mindful it might take me a day or two to get back to you.

Be sure to do self-care.

Take care.

SD