BPD patient "buy-in" time frame????

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I'm trying to get some help with data regarding the whole "buy-in" or "on-boarding" process for those afflicted with BPD.  My "person" is the mother of my two young children (age 4 and age 22 months).  I'm now going through my second custody battle with her after ending our first one 3 years ago by finally convincing her to get therapy.  Unfortunately, at that time, I was mislead and she'd convinced me that she didn't have BPD and that she was misdiagnosed because of her past drug use.  Something I now know is not possible with how diagnostic testing is done. 

Unfortunately, my person is the type who denies her diagnosis and has been doing so for each and every diagnosis she's had in the last ten years or so.  She even has our GAL believing that she's been misdiagnosed because of her drug use.  An angle she been hiding behind through all of her diagnosis over the years.  As I've come to understand in all of my research on this illness, she can go through the motions of therapy, but none of it will matter if she continues to believes she doesn't have a problem.  If it was just her and she was continue to wreak havoc in her world by her denial, that would be her issues to resolve.  But, this illness is spilling over on to our children including her disregard for their emotional well being all while trying to paint me as the problem.  I'm now being faced yet again will false accusations of abuse and rape just so she can try to win and take the children. 

We finally have a hearing in front of a judge in 8 days time.  To this end, my lawyer has asked me to come prepared with statistical data regarding the whole "on-boarding" or "buy-in" process for persons with BPD accepting their diagnosis and accepting treatment.  Further, I've been asked to provide some benchmarks to provide the court to show that my person is receiving and making progress in her treatment.   I'm at a loss as to where to find this data.  So, I'm turning here to see if anyone might be able to point me toward sources that could potentially give me a time frame for this whole "buy-in" process as well as benchmarks to show she's making progress.  The rationale behind this that my lawyer will be pushing for supervised visitation with our children for a time frame relative to her actually accepting and getting real treatment.  I'm hoping someone else with more experience might be able to help.  I just don't want my children to suffer or hurt anymore.  Thank you for reading.

[Trying2bagooddad]

I'm trying to get some help with data regarding the whole "buy-in" or "on-boarding" process for those afflicted with BPD.  My "person" is the mother of my two young children (age 4 and age 22 months).  I'm now going through my second custody battle with her after ending our first one 3 years ago by finally convincing her to get therapy.  Unfortunately, at that time, I was mislead and she'd convinced me that she didn't have BPD and that she was misdiagnosed because of her past drug use.  Something I now know is not possible with how diagnostic testing is done. 

Unfortunately, my person is the type who denies her diagnosis and has been doing so for each and every diagnosis she's had in the last ten years or so.  She even has our GAL believing that she's been misdiagnosed because of her drug use.  An angle she been hiding behind through all of her diagnosis over the years.  As I've come to understand in all of my research on this illness, she can go through the motions of therapy, but none of it will matter if she continues to believes she doesn't have a problem.  If it was just her and she was continue to wreak havoc in her world by her denial, that would be her issues to resolve.  But, this illness is spilling over on to our children including her disregard for their emotional well being all while trying to paint me as the problem.  I'm now being faced yet again will false accusations of abuse and rape just so she can try to win and take the children. 

We finally have a hearing in front of a judge in 8 days time.  To this end, my lawyer has asked me to come prepared with statistical data regarding the whole "on-boarding" or "buy-in" process for persons with BPD accepting their diagnosis and accepting treatment.  Further, I've been asked to provide some benchmarks to provide the court to show that my person is receiving and making progress in her treatment.   I'm at a loss as to where to find this data.  So, I'm turning here to see if anyone might be able to point me toward sources that could potentially give me a time frame for this whole "buy-in" process as well as benchmarks to show she's making progress.  The rationale behind this that my lawyer will be pushing for supervised visitation with our children for a time frame relative to her actually accepting and getting real treatment.  I'm hoping someone else with more experience might be able to help.  I just don't want my children to suffer or hurt anymore.  Thank you for reading.

[PeteWitsend]

seems like your lawyer should be getting that together, not you.

and this isn't the sort of thing a lay person can establish in court... you need an expert witness to testify on this. 

I'd be very cautious and maybe get a second opinion from another lawyer right now, ideally one that has experience with this sort of thing. 

I had a lousy lawyer during my divorce and it blew my mind how unprepared he was, and how he ignored some emails from me, and later tried to get a hearing postponed on the day of the hearing (!!!) blaming me for not sending him the information.  Of course when I later found the email and let him know about, he never responded... jacka__...

[ForeverDad]

and this isn't the sort of thing a lay person can establish in court... you need an expert witness to testify on this.

I would agree with Pete, despite me being married to my spouse for over a decade, no one in court, including the professionals around the court scenario, had time (court) or seemed (professionals) to listen to me.  After all, I hadn't been trained in those fields, I had only lived with her for fifteen years.

My lawyer, who turned out to be used to "typical" cases, never used diagnostic terms and would only refer to my ex as crazy, bats--t crazy, antisocial, able to pass a lie detector, etc.

My child psychologist Custody Evaluator stated up front that he was not there to diagnose ether parent but to assess and recommend custody.  His final report was sealed by the court when we settled but his initial report stated "Mother cannot share 'her' child but Father can... if Shared Parenting fails, Father should get custody."

We all have a tendency to minimize our faults and foibles, but people with BPD have Denial and Blame Shifting traits to an extreme, abnormal degree.

In most cases our court systems are reluctant to name a specific disorder.  (Murder and high profile cases seem to be exceptions?)  Partly that reluctance may be due to not being able to 'prove' how much that impacts parenting.

So we are left with courts that limit themselves to documented evidence.  The typical approach here is to follow that approach, focus on what can be documented... her actions, reactions and overreactions.

I've often lamented that the services surrounding court are too often passive in their conclusions.  I successfully faced down many allegations in those early years yet basically, after everything was said and done, everything was lumped into the passive "unsubstantiated" category rather than the more accurate but less common "unfounded" category.

Have you tried reaching out to the services of William Eddy (High Conflict Institute) who is the author of highly recommended "Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder"?

[Trying2bagooddad]

Thank you Pete and Foreverdad!

Yes, I'm already running into the limitations on the courts to really dig into this illness and how it can impact the children.  I'm now with my second law firm.  The first was just going through the motions and I probably would have lost altogether because he was treating it like a typical case albeit with a one batPLEASE READ partner - which really fails to grasp the magnitude of this illness and its impact on all it touches.  My second law firm I found because the head of it lost her daughter to this illness.  She has one of her staff lawyers handling my case though.  It's frustrating though because things that I want such as the ability to talk with her therapist to ensure that party if fully informed about the truth of everything that happens as it affects my kids, he said the courts will never support.  How else am I as a father supposed to protect my kids if there's no oversight - no way to ensure that their mother is actually receiving and accepting treatment for our children's sake. 

This is just one of many reasons why I'm going to run for office here once all of this is done.  The family law courts need to change so the courts can do more to protect children when there's a personality disorder at play.

I haven't heard of William Eddy (High Conflict Institute).  I'm in Texas.  Is this a nationwide resource? 

[ForeverDad]

Do an online search.  You should easily be able to find Eddy's informative books as well as his website online.  The book I cited (Splitting) is inexpensive and available both on his site as well as other places such as Amazon, either a download or paperback.

https://highconflictinstitute.com/our-team/

Domestic or family courts typically don't try to fix the parents.  Remember, you couldn't fix her either, you were in too close a relationship, right?  Well, courts don't even try.  They deal with parents as they are, not as they wish they'd be.  You would be wise to do similarly.

That she's in therapy (by court order I presume) is great.  However the HIPAA privacy laws probably are what prevent you from communicating back and forth with her therapist.  Possibly you can inform her therapist of events but if she doesn't permit the T to respond to you there's not much you can do.

Another reality is that a disordered or misbehaving person can attend therapy sessions yet not apply the meaningful therapy.  The old adage... you can lead a mule to water but you can't make it drink.

Yes, you can do your best to cite professionals (contact Eddy's team for their perspective and advice) but in a legal scenario such as you're facing you may be limited to reporting documented incidents of poor parenting behavior and seeking the court's response to address those incidents.

My story... I had a lengthy two year divorce and our settlement moved me up from alternate weekends to equal time thanks to an excellent Custody Evaluator.  I went back to court seeking custody and majority time.  I got custody.  I had to go back to court again and finally court paid attention to my list of games my ex was playing with exchanges.  Court assigned me majority time during the school year because my recordings documented she was also disparaging me to my child.  Evidently disparagement is something the court can address since it was mentioned a half dozen times in the written decision.  The magistrate wrote that my ex needed counseling but declined to order it.

It was frustrating that it took 8 years in and out of court for me to finally get an order that worked, but evidently these courts are reluctant to make big changes, preferring to make incremental adjustments over time if the need still exists.

Your 4 year old child is already old enough to have his/her own counselor, it would likely encompass 'play' therapy and be very helpful over time.  If that has not started yet, then that would be an excellent request to make when you appear in court.  My lawyer always told me, "Courts love counseling!"  Even if your ex opposes that - as many acting-out PD parents are - court would likely see your request for counseling as a very good thing for your child, and later for the younger child too.

I hope you've noted the collective wisdom in our posts.  Others too may chime in with their own perspectives and experiences.

[livednlearned]

Quick question: What are the behaviors you see happening with the kids that concern you?

Tying supervised visitation frameworks to an "onboarding" process seems strange, unless something is getting lost in translation ...

I'm guessing "onboarding" and data came up because mom has already been in therapy/treatment, and since she didn't accept her dx, treatment wasn't helpful, therefore treatment can't be a timeframe for supervision?
 
For most of us here, it's documentation and documentation and documentation and documentation that moves the needle. We have to demonstrate a pattern of behaviors that adversely impact the kids. It sounds like one piece of the documentation puzzle is that your wife has a diagnosis, and a second is that she's done treatment, sort of canceling each other (from a court perspective).

If you don't have documentation, then the next step is to get it, either through a custody evaluation or other means. There are lots of ways to document something.

Custody evaluation can be an expensive way to go but it's been useful for people here over the years (assuming the professionals involved are competent).

Something I learned the hard way is to suggest reasonable limits that have reasonable consequences for non-compliance. Meaning, if mom wants to get rid of supervised visitation, then have her do ____. Failing to do _______ means ________. It puts responsibility for her behavior on her. It also tells the judge that you're a reasonable parent focused on problem-solving and solutions.

Lawyers don't think this way because dealing with the failure to comply and the ensuing  consequence is how they make a living.

For example, in my case, following my ex's psychotic break (with our son in the home staying the night), our lawyers proposed to suspend visitation until ex met with a forensic psychologist for a psychiatric evaluation and set up a schedule with limited daily visits, 4 hours tops, twice a week. Modifying that schedule was contingent on ex participating in parenting classes, anger management, substance abuse treatment. He was expected to sign up within 30 days and remain in therapy while completing the classes.

People who want to get better, who want to have a relationship with their kids -- they make an effort. My ex couldn't self-regulate enough to do that.

Rather than find data about "onboarding" that probably carries little heft coming from the same person who is trying to get supervised visitation, think about what makes sense given your concerns about your wife's ability to care for your kids.

Untreated BPD is impossibly contrarian and the stonewalling alone can be quite profound. In family law court, it looks odd for a parent to fight the very things that would help them. I would take 15 dumb classes if it meant getting to see my kid, but for my ex, and for many pwBPD, it becomes one more thing to fight.

Another possibility, using the same logic, is to ask for supervised visitation until a custody evaluation is complete. Propose that you choose 3 psychologists that come highly recommended (really do your research on this, it's important), then let your wife select 1.

It will probably stall there for a long time if she's like many pwBPD.

If she chooses a CE, there are many more pieces where the process can stall.

If she completes the CE, then at the very worst you have a (hopefully competent) professional who will propose the kind of schedule that is safest for the kids.

[Trying2bagooddad]

@livednlearned

Here in Texas we have Guardian Ad Litems, which probably is the same as Custody Evaluators. 

We have one, which I had pushed for.  Unfortunately, the one we got is highly incompetent. 

During my intake with her, I spent nearly four hours detailing everything.  I wanted to be as honest as possible so she had everything she needed to do her job.  By the end of my intake, she expressed profound concern about my children's mother and committed to doing as much as she could to help her and our children.

Cut to a week later and my ex spend less than an hour with her and suddenly I become the focus of her investigation.  My ex play the victim masterfully and suddenly she was just this poor abused woman with a bear of an ex. 

It's just deplorable because as my lawyer at time explained it, the whole role of a GAL was to investigate the parents and make a determination about what's best for the children.  Her investigation became completely one side with her making no effort to even speak to any of my collateral witnesses - that even included my ex's father and her stepmother. 

[CC43]

Good Dad,

Custody battles are tough enough, but adding BPD behavior by a parent makes them even tougher.  Clearly this is a hard time for you.

I'm not sure what is meant by buy-in timeframe for treatment of BPD.  My experience observing a loved one getting treatment for BPD is that (i) the specialized treatment takes significant time, (ii) the patient has to be committed to the process for it to show some benefits, and (iii) positive change is very hard.  In other words, even if your ex-wife agreed to get treatment, there's no guarantee that she would change for the better; and if she's not committed to the process, therapy would surely fail.  She might just "go along with it" to get what she wants.  That's what happened a few times with a person diagnosed with BPD in my life.  At the time, she had no intention of changing, because she was convinced that everyone else was the source of her problems, not her!

At the end of the day, the courts are supposed to consider the well-being of the children above all else.  And in my experience, living with a person with untreated BPD could be considered abuse, especially for children.  Hallmark behaviors are angry outbursts, physical violence, self-harm, threats of suicide and/or suicide attempts and fractured/unstable relationships.  Sometimes BPD leads to drug abuse.  Sometimes BPD leads to withdrawal from life's daily routines or severe depression.  The courts should be concerned if the children aren't properly fed, bathed or put to bed.  The courts should be very concerned if the children are subjected to angry outbursts, bullying or name-calling, or if they are witnesses to violence or self-harm, or if they are exposed to drugs.  If this is true in your case, then it should be documented.  For example, if 911 was called or there were emergency trips to the hospital, that would constitute convincing evidence in my opinion.  Please note that people with BPD will twist facts around those emergency trips, accusing others of "assaulting" them, when they are the ones doing the assaulting or self-harm.  Usually, a hospital will not release a patient if she is deemed to be a threat to herself or others.  That would be convincing evidence, too.

In living with someone with BPD, I've observed that she will frequently lie.  Maybe she'll convince herself she's telling "her truth," but invariably she'll twist facts to paint herself as a victim.  Your lawyers should understand that fact distortion is a hallmark of BPD.  The person with BPD in my life could win an Oscar for her dramatic interpretations of events.

BPD is so complex, I'm not sure courts would understand it well, and everyone is different.  I'm still struggling to understand how to cope with it in my family!  So in summary, I'd focus on documenting how the behavior associated with BPD is adversely impacting the kids, and in finding possible solutions to mitigate the adverse impact.  Maybe the solution is to limit time with that parent, eliminate overnights, or possibly ensure that visitation is supervised until a positive routine is established.  But I suspect that courts don't want to completely prevent a parent from seeing their children.  Even criminals are allowed to see their children.  The courts are looking for a way to let the kids see their parent while safeguarding the well-being of the children.