Question about Change Motivated by Divorce

[wanderer11]

I've had a rough ride with my uBPD wife over the last few years with many breakup threats, verbal abuse, at the same time as pressure to have a child.

Things have come to a head recently, after our Couples Therapist (over >1 year) dropped us (due to my uBPD wife trying to use the sessions only to convince the therapist to convince me that I am wrong), it caused me to look back honestly on the relationship.

I noticed that over the many years we have been together, there has barely been a several month period of time without significant instability or breakup threats.

After a lot of self-reflection, and much discussion, I let my wife know that I didn't see any other option for us to move on than moving on separately. I didn't see anything changing the dynamic of over 10 years if even couples therapy had failed.

At this moment she became desperate and told me she would do anything to change, and that she acknowledged the mistakes she had made.

Is this normal behavior in a toxic marriage when threatened with divorce? How do I tell if this is real change or just desperation? What questions can I ask myself to help make a big decision about what to do next?

Appreciate any advice from those who have been here before, or anyone else who can help...

[15years]

I hope someone else will reply also, but I can almost certainly say that this isn't real change. And it's normal that she's trying to adjust her behavior when faced with the threat of a divorce.

It's about motivation, she is motivated now but it most likely won't last. She wants to feel safe. You want her to feel safe too. But when she feels safe she will return to her old self. Not exactly a win win equation sadly.

I would assume that real change takes much more effort than this from her. Time will tell.

[who_knows11]

I've had a rough ride with my uBPD wife over the last few years with many breakup threats, verbal abuse, at the same time as pressure to have a child.

Things have come to a head recently, after our Couples Therapist (over >1 year) dropped us (due to my uBPD wife trying to use the sessions only to convince the therapist to convince me that I am wrong), it caused me to look back honestly on the relationship.

I noticed that over the many years we have been together, there has barely been a several month period of time without significant instability or breakup threats.

After a lot of self-reflection, and much discussion, I let my wife know that I didn't see any other option for us to move on than moving on separately. I didn't see anything changing the dynamic of over 10 years if even couples therapy had failed.

At this moment she became desperate and told me she would do anything to change, and that she acknowledged the mistakes she had made.

Is this normal behavior in a toxic marriage when threatened with divorce? How do I tell if this is real change or just desperation? What questions can I ask myself to help make a big decision about what to do next?

Appreciate any advice from those who have been here before, or anyone else who can help...

I feel like you are describing my marriage.  The wife makes big talk about divorcing or leaving, how she does not need you at all and can find someone much better looking and who makes more money because any man in the world would kill to have her as a wife.  Then when you say yep your right lets end it she falls apart!!!  Always your fault in an argument until you set a boundary and say I'm not talking anymore and then it switches to her fault and somehow you manage to stay and keep talking.  Lo and behold, it quickly becomes an argument again.  Mine use to tell me the kids were the only thing keeping her from leaving me, then in the next conversation would ask me if I'm ready to have another

I found out less than 48 hours ago that my wife was having an affair.  Confronted her last night and verified she also had one 11 years ago that I never had proof for.  Bear in mind with all I just said, my head is a little cloudy at the moment so take what I say with that perspective.  In my case the surface appearance didn't matter.  No matter which side she showed.  It was all a result of the sexual abuse she suffered while she was a child as well as the abandonment.  It was all she knew and that was the only way she can survive.  I'm not saying this is the case with your wife, but I would not be surprised at all if you were to say she had the same type of childhood. 

That's not an excuse for her actions by any means, but it is the only thing you can come to an understanding of.  At least it was in my case.  I fought it for years.  I eventually found this forum and it helped me get to a place where I decided I had to set my boundaries and not hers.  I had to make a decision to change what I needed to about me.  Whether that was staying and changing what I needed to in order to handle everything, or if that was leaving and making that be the big change.  This is much easier said than done.  I'm sorry to know that you are living in the same type of marriage that I have been.  I know how tough that is.  Unfortunately I now have new factors to add in to my decision about change.  I'm not sure that I provided anything useful, but I hope you can find some answers.  This is a great place to be looking

[boundriesrus]

Hi Wanderer11,

Your situation sounds very similar to the one I am going through now. About 10 months ago my wife, randomly, stated on a ROMCOM movie we were watching, that she didn't think we were going to make it till our 15th wedding anniversary. (We just passed 9... I asked here where di that come from and what is going on. She gave me the silent treatment for the remainder of the night and first half of the following day. Just staring laser focused at the TV Screen, ignoring me looking at her, trying to make eye contact to see what was going on. Nada.

Then ignored that the even ever happened and said "we will probably be fine, Just gotta fake it to make it sometimes"...which I now realize she has said a few times throughout our marriage, which does worry me, what does she feel that she has to fake? Love?

After a few months later and her entitlement behaviors getting worse, I told her when returning from a vacation that I didn't think "this" was going to work anymore and was not enjoying everything being put on me to handle. She started crying and told me "she was totally committed to this relationship and marriage, look at all that we have built together, look at our home, look at our daughter. I love you so much. Can you tell me what is going on? I responded that we needed to get into marriage counseling as there were some major issues we needed to address. She asked for an example, I simply told her "I am afraid you are starting to turn into your mother" This was in regards to me thinking her mom was OCD/Hoarder and had tons of crap around her house, the house smelled of cat urine all the time, infested with fleas and would regularly eat my 6 year old daughter alive to where they both would cover her in bug spray, long pants, long sleeve shirt, long socks and keep the thermostat at 80 degrees during the summer in SC. I had a problem with this since I met her and said she needed to address it, with no attempts, or "There is nothing we can do"...I said that was BS and I would be fine to put myself as the A Hole and protect OUR daughter from this mess. She would also swear me to secrecy about it to the rest of her family, in order to not "embarrass" her mother. It had ALWAYS been about protecting her mother's feelings.

Either way the next day after me telling her I was not happy in the relationship and thought this might not work, she turned into a "Stepford" Wife the very next day, cooking (and she does NOT Cook, as it "Stresses her out"). Then she stared cleaning the house and putting away her PILES of papers, which was old mail, scattered forms and what not complied from months of me asking her if I can put it away for her, then she would just cry if I attempted to move it. Or tell me she was too busy (unemployed) to get around to it. She started seriously looking for job and has been nothing but "What can I do for you Honey" type nonsense in what I can only see as a panic response. Lots of love bombing, love notes, multiple "I love you Texts" throughout the day, smiley faces with vitamins and bananas on the counter in the morning, helping more with the kiddo and her bathing routines, magically able to lift the laundry basket and carry it across the house to the laundry room (previously claimed a 10lb hamper weighed to much and I had to stop work and come carry it for her).

While I am not there to witness your spouse and how they are acting, but if they only change after you bring up divorce, who is to say that they don't go back to their old ways, once they feel they have your hooks in you again. Sadly I do not think our situation is going to pan out, and at this point it is honestly for the best, especially if I can get her to seek the proper help in order to avoid turning into her mother, which at this point is crazy cat lady. Super nice in person, but makes me wonder what she can be like behind closed doors... like my wife somedays.

[Pook075]

How do I tell if this is real change or just desperation?

Well, obviously it's not real change- it's an offer to make real change.  And yes, it's desperation as well.

Here's the thing though.  You've been wanting real change for the past 10 years.  Now she's ready to put in some work in order to make that happen.  Why would you question the very thing you've been waiting for?  Accept her offer.  Just be ready to work through it with her and recognize that you'll have to communicate in a different style for things to improve.

What questions can I ask myself to help make a big decision about what to do next?

To me, that's pretty simple- if you could fix the relationship where it worked for both of you and you're both happy, would you want to stay?

Only you can make this decision because it's your life, your journey, your emotions that have been beaten down.  But giving it one final try before walking away certainly makes sense to me.  If it works out, you walk away a winner.  If it doesn't, then you lose nothing but a few weeks or few months.  For me, the upside feels a lot greater here.

[ForeverDad]

I've had a rough ride with my uBPD wife over the last few years with many breakup threats, verbal abuse, at the same time as pressure to have a child.

In a stable relationship having a child would be great.  But beware that having a child does not fix a troubled marriage or relationship.  That's what I learned after married over a decade.  Over the years her childhood FOO (family of origin) gradually seized her perspective.  I was clueless and hoped us finally having a child would help.  It didn't, actually she became more distant (from me, not our child) and within a few years our marriage had imploded while I was painted as Mr Evil Personified.  (Child good, husband bad.)  That's when I learned another surprise, having a child vastly complicates a divorce because now there are custody and parenting issues to resolve.

Likely she does not realize that having a child won't fix her internal issues.  However, whether consciously or subconsciously, she may sense that having a child would create a scenario - a sense of Obligation* where you would find it much harder to contemplate a divorce.

* BPD FOG = Fear, Obligation, Guilt.

Things have come to a head recently, after our Couples Therapist (over >1 year) dropped us (due to my uBPD wife trying to use the sessions only to convince the therapist to convince me that I am wrong), it caused me to look back honestly on the relationship.

You have tried to find solutions.  But even your CT eventually concluded that your spouse was not "working with the program".

It has often been observed here that the other's promises, your hopes and your dreams are meaningless if they don't pass the test of time.  There must be follow-through or it's all for nothing.

Yes, she's desperate now.  But will she (1) seek meaningful therapy, (2) apply it diligently in her perceptions, behaviors and thinking, and especially (3) persist in progress long term going forward?  That's a huge challenge and sadly many don't succeed.

Is this more than lip service?  She may be desperate but is she desperate enough to make real lasting improvements?

This is not to say she can't have relapses, that's a given for anyone, but would she promptly get right back up and get back onto the recovery bandwagon?  As in, one step back but then two steps forward?

Sadly, you're too close to her emotionally for her to get past the emotional baggage of the past years.  She can't listen to you like she could listen to a therapist.

A counselor is objectively and emotionally neutral.  Long ago I read "Get Me Out of Here".  I don't remember much about it except how it ended which emphasized why the role of a counselor was so helpful... it was not an emotional relationship.

This reminds me of a post I made recently.  This woman, after years of therapy, did recover from BPD but she emphasized her therapist always maintained a professional separation, no emotional strings.

Have you read Get Me Out of Here — My Recovery from Borderline Personality Disorder by Rachel Reiland?  It's a paperback account by someone recovered from BPD.  It was exceedingly tough for her, but it turned out well for her and her family.

What helped so much was that her therapist drew a strong line/boundary concerning their interactions.  Her therapist remained absolutely neutral emotionally, not even touching.  (That's why you bear so much of the brunt of her behaviors, because your spouse can't get past the past emotional baggage of the years of close relationship with you to really listen to you.)

That book ended on a high note.  Only when her therapy was completed, she got to hug her therapist for the very first and only time.

[PeteWitsend]

...
Is this normal behavior in a toxic marriage when threatened with divorce? How do I tell if this is real change or just desperation? What questions can I ask myself to help make a big decision about what to do next?

Appreciate any advice from those who have been here before, or anyone else who can help...

I'd say, yes, it's normal behavior when a pwBPD is threatened with divorce.  Regardless of whether they've thrown around the likelihood of divorce, or even threatened to divorce you themselves, it's not something they actually want, and they'll claim to do anything to avoid it.  Remember, the fear of abandonment is one of their great emotional drivers; when a separation becomes real, rather than just a threat they  throw around to try to control you, they get desperate.

Also, I've read plenty of posts here of BPD partners threatening to divorce their spouse, even going so far as actually filing for divorce (but not actually serving their partner, to start the process).  In their minds, it can be just another "technique" to control the non-disordered partner... they want you to chase them, promise you'll never divorce them, beg them to reconsider, etc.  The feeling of control and power they get from threatening divorce is rewarding to them, I imagine.  But if you call their bluff and go through with it, they'll quickly backtrack.

My own experience: nearly got divorced a year before I actually did.  BPDxw and I both saw attorneys and I was ready to go through with it, when she started begging me to reconsider, and after my wife reached out, one of my parents urged me to try counseling again.  I did reconsider, and told my then-uBPDw that I'd call it off... she apologized for the fight that precipitated it, and said she was going to get counseling for her behavior and acknowledged she was out of line.

Well... maybe a week later, once she felt secure that the threat of actual divorce had passed, she had "rewritten" the whole episode to put the blame on me, deny she ever promised to get counseling again, and laughed that I was just an "emotional person" and implied the whole divorce thing was just me being over the top.  She was screaming at me, accusing me of cheating on her constantly, picking fights again, refusing to let any of my family members visit our daughter, etc. within a month.

A year later when I did move out and file for divorce, she went from screaming at me and calling me names for the first couple days, to begging me to reconsider and saying she'd go to therapy again, even marital counseling, and just let me talk and not argue, and claiming she never wanted to divorce and just wanted to talk.  I never responded. 

I heard (from 3rd parties) that at a kid's bday party a month or so later she was telling people she never loved me and only tried to stop the divorce just because she didn't feel like going through the hassle of it.  At some point she had a new boyfriend, and within 5 or 6 months she let her him move into her house.  Of course, all this time she was still badmouthing me to the neighbors, mutual friends, anyone who'd listen...

Do not put stock in anything they say!  Their emotional dysregulations drive their behaviors, and in the end they look out for themselves, and no one else. 

[Gerda]

I've lost count of how many times my husband has threatened to divorce me. I distinctly remember the first and second times, but after that it becomes a blur. The first few times I got all panicked. Then I started realizing it was an empty threat.

Finally, he'd threaten, and I'd say something like, "OK, sure! Let's get divorced!" or "OK, I guess I'll call a lawyer tomorrow." Then immediately he'd freak out as if it was my idea. "What lawyer have you been talking to?" "You're not getting custody of [our daughter]!" "I'm not leaving our house!" etc.

Remember, borderlines fear abandonment, even though they can't stand being around you either. "I hate you, don't leave me." Divorce threats, whether they do it or you do it, kicks in their fear of abandonment and then they get desperate to get you back. But its not long until they hate you again.

If your wife really has BPD, she'll need some serious therapy to change, and it could take years. If she actually does that, then it might be a good sign. But if she keeps saying she'll change but doesn't do the hard work, she won't change.

Also, don't have a kid with her! I did with my BPD husband and it make him WAY worse! I didn't even realize he had BPD until after we had our kid. The thing about we women though is we have a biological deadline to have kids. I'm not sure how old your wife is, but if she's in her mid-30's or older that might account for some of the pressure to have a child. In hindsight I realize that I put up with some of my husband's past behavior because I didn't think I could find anyone better, and I really wanted kids and was running out of time. But I also didn't know that his behavior would worsen significantly after we had a kid. I had hoped having a kid would motivate him to get better. I feel stupid about that.

So keep in mind that having a kid is very likely to make her behavior worse. The only thing that will make her better is years of serious therapy.

[wanderer11]

Thank you everyone so much for sharing your experiences and advice. It was really helpful.

I took the decision to ask for a temporary separation, which I think was one of the more difficult things I've had to do in life. It nearly broke me.

After many years of trying to stop the conflict including over 2 in couples therapy I just couldn't continue without a big change. I had started feeling near to burnout at work and my sleep and health were being affected in a steadily increasing way. I felt like I might have a breakdown at some point.

The suggestions from my wife to "just try harder" didn't really convince me that this would change. I also felt like there was some backtracking and making excuses going on which concerned me. Looking over the last two years I could see how I had made some big changes in how I communicate, but hadn't seen that drive a change in the dynamic between us.

It happened pretty quickly, so we haven't had a chance to talk about what the separation looks like yet. Only that we are not dating other people whilst separated, which isn't on my priority list at the moment anyway. The whole thing is weird, awkward and uncomfortable, my wife strangely won't even tell me where she has moved (not that I am pushing her to know). But for now I am sleeping better and feeling less anxiety.

My wife is convinced that I am telling her the relationship is definitely over, even though I made that clear it want the case. My plan is to go to therapy this week and try to think about what we can discuss as the path forward. I'm not sure what that looks like, but i'm not ruling anything out just yet...

[PeteWitsend]

Just remember who you're dealing with.  She's not going to honor any promises or agreements you make during this time, and she's not going to behave as a person trying to save the relationship, even if she's claiming that's what she wants.

Look out for yourself, and don't get caught surprised by her.

I think too that pwBPD struggle mightily with uncertainty, and so she may on some level create more chaos now so she can resolve this "uncertainty" by forcing you to end it (which she can blame on you)