Being honest with myself and her

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hello forum friends =)

I've recently read "Stop Caretaking" and found it very helpful.  Still have yet to read "How to Love" but will be soon.

I'm living on my own now and doing a lot of soul searching.  Here is what I'm thinking at the moment - sort of high level.

First of all I need to stop putting the emotional needs of my partner ahead of my own.  I find myself often thinking about how my partner will react to a decision that I'm making.  I need to take care of myself.  That means I need to spend time with and talk with my friends/family regularly, spend time outdoors, practice my hobby, and be able to focus on my work when I need to.  But it also means spending quality time with my partner and her son.

If I want to be with my partner I need to find ways to reacting to her emotional outbursts that don't exacerbate the situation.  That may look like being softer and showing empathy.  It may also mean being firm on not tolerating abusive language and screaming by either getting some distance or not engaging.

Something she's been asking for a lot is an explanation as to "what changed" last year.  I know full well what did.  I finally realized that she is expressing BPD traits and that I needed to start holding to some boundaries.

Should I just explain to her outright that I felt like I wasn't taking care of my needs?  I think maybe I have been avoiding this because I know it'll start an argument but it's probably important to talk through if we are going to move forward.

[usagi]

Hello forum friends =)

I've recently read "Stop Caretaking" and found it very helpful.  Still have yet to read "How to Love" but will be soon.

I'm living on my own now and doing a lot of soul searching.  Here is what I'm thinking at the moment - sort of high level.

First of all I need to stop putting the emotional needs of my partner ahead of my own.  I find myself often thinking about how my partner will react to a decision that I'm making.  I need to take care of myself.  That means I need to spend time with and talk with my friends/family regularly, spend time outdoors, practice my hobby, and be able to focus on my work when I need to.  But it also means spending quality time with my partner and her son.

If I want to be with my partner I need to find ways to reacting to her emotional outbursts that don't exacerbate the situation.  That may look like being softer and showing empathy.  It may also mean being firm on not tolerating abusive language and screaming by either getting some distance or not engaging.

Something she's been asking for a lot is an explanation as to "what changed" last year.  I know full well what did.  I finally realized that she is expressing BPD traits and that I needed to start holding to some boundaries.

Should I just explain to her outright that I felt like I wasn't taking care of my needs?  I think maybe I have been avoiding this because I know it'll start an argument but it's probably important to talk through if we are going to move forward.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[kells76]

One thought about wanting to genuinely address her "what changed last year" question is that at some level, it might be like her question to you the other day (in the van) of "If you weren't with me you could find a younger woman with kids and try to have a family again.  Is that something you think you would want?"

Addressing it "directly", "as if" she's literally asking what the words typically mean, seems like it'd be missing the feelings behind her words, and could lead to a "land mine" situation as you two termed it.

And I think you've already tried addressing it directly as if she's really curious about learning new information, like "she just wants a list of the specific changes that happened last year"... and that doesn't seem to go well. She doesn't want an explanatory list but uses words that make it sound like she does. So there's a disconnect and both of you end up frustrated.

I wonder if she's actually expressing some feelings, but in a confusing and low-skill way: "I feel uncomfortable, scared, and insecure because stuff is different and I have no idea what, but what's most important to me is I don't like these feelings of not knowing what's going on, things not being predictable, you being different, etc". I don't know if those are her feelings, just a guess.

Maybe you can try finding a validation target?

"You feel like stuff changed last year? That might feel unsettling".

[usagi]

Thanks Kells,

I think you are absolutely right.  The facts I've given have really done nothing to stop the questions.

I think recognizing that she feels very different about the relationship is a start.  I'm guessing, though, that she'll need more.  I think once removed said that sometimes you need to dig deeper.

I did some things last year that made her feel like second/third place in my life.  I think that's the question she's really asking.  From my side I was trying to regain some of my independence.

I'm really struggling with this.  I think it would be good to validate her feelings about how things have changed but then what?

[kells76]

Walk me through this a bit more:

I think it would be good to validate her feelings about how things have changed but then what?

Her: "What changed last year?"

You: "You feel like stuff changed from last year to this year? That would feel [unsettling, or whatever seems closest]"

Her: "It is deeply unsettling because I can't trust you, and you always put me last in your life."

You: "_________________________"  <-------------- is that the point at which you saying "yeah, I validated, but then what?"

[usagi]

You: "_________________________"  <-------------- is that the point at which you saying "yeah, I validated, but then what?"

Yup.  She's told me many times that the way she'll feel better about a situation is if the problem is identified and a workable solution is put in place.  I can tell her that it does suck that things have changed but what she wants from me is why and what am I going to do about it to make her feel better essentially.

[kells76]

Yup.  She's told me many times that the way she'll feel better about a situation is if the problem is identified and a workable solution is put in place.  I can tell her that it does suck that things have changed but what she wants from me is why and what am I going to do about it to make her feel better essentially.

This might be a place where the disorder is showing up and impacting problemsolving/resolution.

So my thought is that in a "generally normal" relationship, both partners would more or less be able, at that point, to work together to say "yeah, XYZ is the problem... I guess I could try doing A instead, what about you? OK, you'll try B, and we'll see how that goes".

Even if the two of you could have that conversation -- where you agree to do A and she will try B -- the thing is, if she has untreated BPD or other difficulties with emotional regulation, then agreement (even on paper) won't hold weight with her during times of intense emotions.

She could say "You need to do A as a solution to this problem", and you could say "OK, I will do A", but when it comes down to it, if you're having the "land mine" situation and you think to yourself OK, we agreed I'd do A in these cases to solve the issue, and you do A, she may still say "I can't believe you have no workable solution, you're doing nothing to improve things". And that is despite "having the conversation", "getting a workable solution", and doing the agreed-upon solution... because in those intense moments, she isn't functioning from a WiseMind place, she's desperate because of overwhelming emotions. Everything else is out the window.

My guess is that you might agree with that assessment?

Where I'd go from there isn't "so there's no hope, the goalposts will always be moving".

I think where I'd go from there is -- it may be less important to do what she says, and more important to do what makes sense, regardless of what she says about it. I wouldn't do that from a place of "she's crazy so I don't respect what she says, and I'm the only one who is rational." I'd maybe do it more from a place of: she has a limitation that's pretty profound that impacts normal problemsolving. You can hear where she's coming from, validate what's valid to try to connect safely and learn more about her feelings/perspective, and, know that it may not make sense to let her statements take the lead in strengthening/improving the relationship. You may need to become OK with listening really hard for what's valid in her communication -- she may have a point that you haven't done workable solutions so far? -- and also at the same time, moving forward with doing what makes sense, even if it isn't what she says she wants.

Her feelings and statements about what you're doing to improve the relationship oughtn't be the metric for if your choices make sense. Again, not from a "I can be a cold heartless dude and my wants come first" perspective, but from really getting grounded in the reality that she is relationally limited and seems impaired in having perspective about what is healthy for a couple.

So, going back here:

You: "_________________________"  <-------------- is that the point at which you saying "yeah, I validated, but then what?"

Yup.  She's told me many times that the way she'll feel better about a situation is if the problem is identified and a workable solution is put in place.  I can tell her that it does suck that things have changed but what she wants from me is why and what am I going to do about it to make her feel better essentially.

There's the option to continue to validate:

"Wow, it would hurt to always be put last."

That may continue some safe connection where she shares her feelings with you. Maybe the key there is not to go down the road of "OK, she shared her feelings, so now it's my job to do something about it." What if you continued the validation conversation? What if validation was all that happened? Could that be OK?

If you're concerned that it would turn into pressure/escalation, it might be a good idea to plan ahead of time strategies for different locations. Driving in vehicles together typically isn't a good place for conversations to escalate -- that may take more boundaries ("That's a lot for me to process... it means a lot that you told me. I want to be at my best to keep listening, how about over brunch tomorrow?").

Maybe the dialectic here is balancing truly validating how she's feeling and hearing where she's coming from, with moving forward with doing what makes sense, regardless of what she says she feels about it.

There may be information in what she shares that impacts what would make sense to do -- if so, take it into consideration. If not -- do what makes sense.

You may need to be OK with the discomfort of trying true solutions that are not at all what she says she wants.

Anyway -- food for thought.

[usagi]

Thank you Kells,

I think that this is just sort of highlighting the general skills of looking for ways to validate but not taking things to the extreme of the caretaker trying to "fix" the situation.

She says that she wants resolution but I think more importantly she wants to be validated.

Yes I'd agree that when she's upset she can't access any sort of logical portions that would help her think through or problem solve solutions to a situation.

Last night she sent me a long string of texts talking about why she doesn't get to have a family like other people in my extended family who have taken on step children.  I did my best over text to validate what she was saying without engaging in the conversation too much.  We've both agreed that texting is not a good tool for working out emotional problems.

This morning she said she wants to talk to me tomorrow about this and "wants an answer".  I feel she is still very much stuck on why my hobby and job are important to me.

My plan is to listen with empathy and, like you suggested, validate that feeling that is really sucks to be put second or third in importance in someone's life.  I'd also say that I agree that those activities shouldn't conflict with the responsibilities of being a parent and good partner in that if I were working 80 hour weeks and or spending a significant amount of my free time on my hobby that's not OK.  This is how she feels and for her it's real.  Even though I only spend a few extra hours a week on work and have been keeping my hobby activities to once a week.

It seems like she feels pretty devalued and unworthy of love.  She wants to be together with me, that's pretty clear.  But if I'm not able to validate her feelings then I'm being "defensive" and it damages our connection.

I think my biggest worry is that either I'll say something/do something invalidating for her or that I'll switch to caretaker mode and just try to "fix" the situation.

[usagi]

Well the big discussion that I was expecting this past weekend never happened.  She seemed to be just glad that I was with her.

The past few days have actually been pretty enjoyable.  Just the two of us in the house while her son is off on spring break.  It's times like this that remind me that I've actually never felt so loved and appreciated in a relationship before.  That's sort of the double edged sword I suppose.  It's both the best and most dysfunctional at the same time.

We've been talking about keeping separate households for the duration of her son's schooling.  I feel sad yet somewhat relieved about that.  I was really looking forward to having a family experience but it seems like it just isn't in the cards with these two.  Anytime I'm around the two of them aggravate one another.

My hope is that I'll be getting better with my validation and maybe we can all move back in together.

It is possible that we stay living apart while she is raising him though...

[Pook075]

This morning she said she wants to talk to me tomorrow about this and "wants an answer".  I feel she is still very much stuck on why my hobby and job are important to me.

Hey Usagi!  Sorry I'm chiming in a little late here.

If you're being honest with yourself, what changed last year?

This is a "you statement" that has nothing to do with her.  Since there's BPD in play, she's assuming that it's only about her, hence why she's demanding an answer.  The key here is affirming that things changed (aka, new boundaries) because of what you needed to feel whole.

That approach would likely circle back to her- you've seen to her needs less than before.  She's hurt because of that.  And it would be so tempting to say that you needed the additional space due to the dynamics at home.  It's okay to say that if it's the truth, but you want to deliver that without blame.

If you avoid this, the pattern continues.  If you give the same answers, the pattern continues.  The only way to actually deal with it and move on is by facing it directly.  Here's why things changed, here's when I realized that I needed to do something different for my own mental health.

I hope that helps!

[usagi]

Hi Pook!

Thanks as always for the commentary.

She brought this up again last night in a big way, now saying that I have a deadline to give her a complete answer (5/1).

Here's some of the things she mentioned:

• Why did you double down on your need to do you hobby last July
• Why weren't you there at the airport to meet me in July
• Why weren't you even at the house when I got home in July
• Why did you blow up our plan to move to (state) in December
• Why did you leave and not tell me where you were going
• When you finally came back to talk you were so defensive
• Why did you threaten to call the police on me
• Why did you say you wouldn't give up your hobby when I was crying and begging on my knees

And there's more that I can't remember.

I'm pretty sure what triggered this was that she was looking to get a professional license in the new state ahead of the move.  She got an email yesterday asking if she was going to go through with it.  She said that if she doesn't she may not be invited to do it again.  I'm not sure I believe that.  She has the experience and it's mostly a matter of just paying the org.

She has said that I need to give an honest apology for what I did last year and make some "atonement" for what I did.  I've asked many times what that meant to her and she's replied that I need to just figure that out for myself.

I get it.  She is scared that I'll just leave her again.  She doesn't think she can buy a house with me ever because I'll just flake out on it.  She has real fears that I'm not alleviating.

I've apologized for what I feel I can many times.  I've told her that I'm working on responding in a softer way when she's emotional.  I honestly don't know what I can do to atone for my sins so to speak.

I think Kells and you are on the right track that I need to indicate that yes things have changed and that sucks.  She feels scared and says she needs to hear a plan from me/apology/reasons I did those things.

I tried to talk through that with her yesterday and she won't accept what I say.  Regarding last July I admitted that I could have found a way to participate in my hobby on other days and preserve our "day together".  She honed in on the fact that I said it was "just" a mistake.  It made her feel not validated.

The bottom line is that I feel she does want to continue being in a relationship with me but she's very scared.  I get that.  I'm not sure what I can do to help her with that other than say what I'm doing to help the relationship now...

Thoughts please =)

[Pook075]

Thoughts please =)

Sure.

A few years ago, I got into resin epoxy to re-do our kitchen countertops.  I didn't know anything about it though so to start, I grabbed a few old tables and night stands from Goodwill to practice on.  Mixing the epoxy, blending in colors, different application techniques...there was a lot to learn.  I coated and re-coated these pieces dozens of times, continually messed up, and still had a blast doing it.  Eventually, I realized that this was really just art and there was definitely some skill involved in actually being good at it.

You and I, we can talk out my epoxy hobby, you can make fun of me and we could argue and laugh about it.  No problem.  Just two guys talking about some dumb man-thing that means more to me than it should.  You get it.  And I get why you don't get it.  But we could still talk it out at length until you tell me to shut up about it.  Even then, I get it...LOL.

When you're talking to your wife, she's 100% entitled to her opinions...even if they're way off base.  Your job is not to defend or explain.  In fact, that tends to make things worse when we're talking BPD.  Your conversation with her should be very different than the conversation we'd have about epoxy.  Why?  Because you and I would be using equal parts logic and emotion in that conversation...while we'd both understand that it's a stupid hobby of mine that really doesn't mean anything. 

With your wife, you're relying almost entirely on logic while she's relying almost solely on emotion.  For you, some things are said in passing that you believe there's a mutual understanding in place.  For her, the understanding isn't there and things get taken out of context.  So the longer the conversation goes, you get further apart in trust and understanding.

The goal is to stop explaining, stop defending, and just focus on her emotions.  If she's angry, focus only on calming her down.  If she's sad, cheer her up.  It sounds so simple and it is once you get past the emotions and the fear of what can potentially go wrong.  Once she's leveled-out, then you can focus more on the words and begin to have a real conversation once again.

The problem you have is not actually all the questions she's asking about the past.  The past is gone and can't be changed.  The real problem is moving past that stuff and focusing on the now.  That's where you should be guiding these conversations when she's stable and receptive.

Again, the goal is to get to point we're at- two dummies debating the significance of epoxy.  You first have to get her to that place though, to that level of stability and trust where you can share openly without scorn.  Stop defending the past since she'll never make sense of it.  Instead, focus on how you feel about her today and the happiness it can bring.

[usagi]

Thanks again Pook,

This is definitely where I get stuck.  The emotion that she's expressing is fear or uncertainty about the future of the relationship.  For her it comes out as a question "why did you do these things and how am I going to know that you won't do them again?"

I don't feel I have any good tools for redirecting that question.  She'll just sort of keep asking.  I've tried to answer it but, as you pointed out, that becomes a logical argument that totally misses the point.

The other thing I've said is "I'll keep thinking about it" which drives her up a wall.  I have been thinking about how to help her with this but so far it isn't working.

I have tried to just label what she's feeling "you're feeling scared that this will happen again".  But she's looking for some comfort.

I think in those cases she was feeling that her emotions were being ignored.  To make her feel more at ease I'd have to convince her that I'll do better at recognizing her emotions and responding to them...with out saying that explicitly.

She needs help to move past that and I'm not sure how to help her do that.

[kells76]

Having a similar gut feeling as Pook075 -- rehashing the past isn't going to heal your relationship. She can use words that sound really specific, and the whole setup sounds like "if I just answer her questions correctly by the deadline, then she will have the information about the past and things will be better."

So the difficult part will be finding a way not to get caught up in her deals, plans, ultimatums, questions, and deadlines, but finding a way to compassionately bypass that, focus on the present and future while acknowledging (not dwelling on) pain in the past, and put the work for finding a solution back in her lap.

That may be a helpful mindset -- she wants you to solve her pain. Nobody can solve another person's pain. If you keep accepting her terms "as if" you could solve her pain, she will continue to hurt -- of course it isn't working.

Empathetic listening to her feelings, validating real validation targets, and practicing some S.E.T. to put the "solution finding" back in her lap, plus a time limit on these interactions, may be an option.

Not sure how to finesse this, but I'm wondering if you may need to have compassionate boundaries around not engaging with her "questions" (which may be her trying to get you to fix her pain). I'm kind of thinking that the more you engage with her questions, the more you're inadvertently communicating to her "Yes, I could probably solve your pain", and so she keeps knocking on that door. Stopping "answering the door" and redirecting may be more helpful than continuing to open the door to say things that don't fix her pain. She may not have the capacity to understand why it is that you can do everything she specifies but she doesn't feel better.

Anyway, maybe there is something you can repeat with love and empathy: "Babe, I don't have any new insights about that for you. Things from the past did really hurt (and I'm truly sorry for the pain you were in). Let's make today better (or "The present is different" or whatever you can authentically say). What do you think you'll do about ______________?" Just some ideas, not anything written in stone.

It may take some distress tolerance on your part to shift from engaging with her questions on her terms, to modeling acknowledgment of the past plus a focus on the present/future and a declining to pick up solutions that should be hers to find.

We can't make someone else feel differently and that isn't our job. What we can do is hear their feelings and be present with them as they feel that way, without judgment or an agenda to "improve their feelings".

...

So does she want to have a verbal conversation about all that, or email, or...?

[kells76]

Looks like I cross posted with this:

This is definitely where I get stuck.  The emotion that she's expressing is fear or uncertainty about the future of the relationship.  For her it comes out as a question "why did you do these things and how am I going to know that you won't do them again?"

I don't feel I have any good tools for redirecting that question.  She'll just sort of keep asking.  I've tried to answer it but, as you pointed out, that becomes a logical argument that totally misses the point.

The other thing I've said is "I'll keep thinking about it" which drives her up a wall.  I have been thinking about how to help her with this but so far it isn't working.

A new option there could be:

"This sounds really important to you and it means a lot to me that you are open with me about that. I'm able to keep thinking about it on my own, or, if you want, we can work on it in therapy -- either with my T or you could pick one. What sounds best to you?"

Again, you know her best, so you have a better feel for how that would go, but it does put the ball back in her court for solution-finding and self soothing. You are sharing that you can do X, or if she does not like that, she can pick Y or Z -- it's her call.

...

It's a hard situation and there are not easy answers.

[Pook075]

I have tried to just label what she's feeling "you're feeling scared that this will happen again".  But she's looking for some comfort.

You just said the answer yourself- she's scared, your job is to comfort her.  That's not something you need to think about and find an answer for in the past (why'd you do this?) or the future (how do I know you won't do that again?).  

Like Kells just said, there's no reason to explain. By doing that, you're creating an unrealistic expectation that you'll be perfect from here on out, so when you mess up again and she's still hung up on this, then she affirms those past fears and it's a whole mess.

Instead, show her that you're there for her.  Add a little romance, a little woo-ing.  Make her confident that you're not going anywhere through your actions.  Words are cheap; actions tell the real story.  You must make the effort right now, even though it feels counter-intuitive when she pushes you away.

Make sense?

[usagi]

Thanks to you both.

Yes I feel like this is a difficult situation.  But you're right.  Continuing to engage in the questions isn't really going to solve anything.  It never really has in the past.

Kells, she's expecting a face to face conversation.

I think that I do need to say something like "I really don't have any new insight about what happened" along with Pook's recommendation to turn up the romance a bit.

She needs to feel wanted and she doesn't.  If I can help her feel more wanted maybe that will help her let go.

She actually asked me last night if we should go see a counselor together.  My therapist might be able to help us through this but she has a poor opinion of therapists.

I need to figure out some way to comfort her.  More attention on her will help.  Talking in excruciating detail about the past definitely won't.

[Pook075]

I think that I do need to say something like "I really don't have any new insight about what happened" along with Pook's recommendation to turn up the romance a bit.

I have an appointment so I'm running out the door, but I caught this and that's not the answer.  Again, don't talk about the past unless it's a way to close the file and move on.

You know what happened, but you're not seeing it through the correct lens.  She was dealing with something (that you probably don't know about) and your absence upset her.  You were also dealing with something (her attitude) and were stressed. 

To simplify, you were both dealing with things and you're sorry you didn't realize how she felt back then.  That's the whole story, the entire confession....I'm sorry you felt abandoned and I wasn't there.  I'm here now though and want to focus on our future.

Hopefully that helps!

[usagi]

Thanks for distilling that Pook.

That's helpful =)

[usagi]

Well yesterday was an interesting day.  I had a colonoscopy in the afternoon while my partner had another medical appointment just prior.  We've been living together this past week while her son is off with his grandma for spring break.  Things have been going mostly well but late in the week I started getting the questions about "what happened last year" again.

Yesterday the wheels really came off.  She had been feeling depressed that day pretty strongly but didn't let on.  I could tell she was stressed but didn't suspect.  I went through the procedure with no issues (nothing detected, yay!) and she was there in the waiting area while I was recovering from the anesthetic.  I was pretty groggy but kept telling her I loved her and wanted to be with her.  I woke up enough that they discharged me and we headed home.

On the way to the car she asked me something about the upcoming move.  I mentioned that I'll be finding a place close by to theirs so I can spend lots of time with them.  She got pretty dark on the way home.  Started asking me about what I really wanted and about where I was going to live.  I had sent her a link to a house rental earlier in the day because she requested she be involved in the process since she'd likely be spending time at my place.  In the care I asked if we could wait to have the conversation because I was still under the effects of sedation and she reluctantly agreed.

Later that night she asked if I was feeling better and if we could talk.  I said yes.  Then the flood gates opened.  We spent the next five hours talking about our lives together.  She said that she couldn't live this sort of "halfsys" live where she's alternately dating me and raising her son by herself.  She demanded to know what happened last year.  All I said was that I realized that I made her feel abandoned and that I was sorry, no other details or explanation.  She kept on demanding a plan from me on how we could live as a family together or I would need to leave and never come back.

I finally got her to sleep by 11:30 or so but then had to help her calm down again at 3:30am for a bit, while I was struggling with some of the cramping from the procedure.

This morning she left for work but came back because I wasn't answering my texts, because I was sleeping.  We talked a bit more and I told her that I would be OK with getting an apartment in the same complex nearby and that I wanted to be with her.

I feel like last night was a huge test for me.  Lots of accusations and name calling.  Lots of tests of my boundaries but I stood firm.  I really worked hard to be sympathetic, and empathetic and used the truth wherever it made sense to.

It was a long night but we both got through it.

I feel OK with everything but do need to have my own space for a while.  She seemed to accept that this morning.

Yesterday she said it was unfair for me to treat her like my wife one second and then a casual dating partner the next.  That's not what I have been offering but how she felt.

I honestly don't know if this is the right thing to do but I'll try as long as I can have my own space for a while.

She says that she wants to be a family and that I need to stop "bickering" with her son.  Problem is that she really creates that environment with how she treats me around him and he picks up on that.  I feel like she'd need to change how she interacts with me around him in order for us all to be together.

So even though it was hard I feel like it was a victory, at least for me.  I didn't get drawn in at all last night.  I held my ground and just validated as much as I was able.

I think I'm gonna take a nap today =) 

[Pook075]

So even though it was hard I feel like it was a victory, at least for me.  I didn't get drawn in at all last night.  I held my ground and just validated as much as I was able.

I think I'm gonna take a nap today =) 

Good for you, it sounds like a step forward.  It also sounds like she really wants things to work out, which is promising.  One step at a time though, one hurdle at a time.  Rome wasn't built in a day.

Over time, it feels like one of the major obstacles has been the son.  Like you said, she wishes that you'd stop bickering and wants to be a family.  But those two things don't go together- parents don't bicker with kids.  They guide them while teaching right from wrong.  That's something you have to make known; to be a family, she has to support you more in that area since you have the kid's best interests at heart.

That's probably not a "now conversation", but something to store away for the future.  Explain that boundary and why it serves everyone.  It's out of love for her and the kid, to bring everyone closer.

All good stuff!  And don't feel bad if you need your own space for a bit, this is about you and what you need for your own mental health.  At least you have some goals to work towards now and you're closer to being on the same page.  That's healthy boundaries and they do work in time.

[zondolit]

Hi usagi,

I'm responding to your first post in this thread without having read the other posts.

Your post resonates with me because I remember my husband saying: "something changed with you [and I don't like it]!" It was for the same reasons you note: through counseling, discovering BPD, and books and other resources about having a BPD partner. I started taking better care of myself, trusting myself more, refraining from JADEing, and setting boundaries better. My husband, always perceptive, picked up on this.

At the time he said this, I think I froze because I was thinking: how do I navigate this without mentioning BPD? He was already suspicious of me and I was feeling guilty for hiding things (like books on BPD).

If I could go back again, I would have tried using curiosity more than anything and responded to him: oh, that's interesting! Tell me more! What have you noticed?

[usagi]

Thanks for the support Pook as always.  Yesterday was a hard day for me physically, mentally, and emotionally.

Zondolit, I haven't tried the curiosity approach.  I should try to add that to by tool kit for sure.  I've had the most luck connecting by just calling out the emotion she's experiencing.  She'll often soften a little and tell me more about that feeling without me prompting.  But the curiosity tool sounds useful.  Thanks for the comments =)

[kells76]

As a side note, it seems like a lot of times, when a conversation goes off the rails, it's in a vehicle. Does that sound accurate to you?

(I understand there could be a counting/reporting assumption on my end -- you could have 10 conversations at home and 4 go off the rails, and 10 conversations in the car and 2 go off the rails, and you talk here about 1 of the home conversations but 2 of the car conversations, so it looks like the car is the problem when actually a higher % of conversations head south at home).

[usagi]

Thanks for the question Kells,

I'd have to put some thought into that one.  It can be a stressful place for my partner to be.  She can feel very claustrophobic if we are in slow traffic and that can really get her going.

I know it's a hard place for me to have a conversation, especially if I'm driving.  I'm someone who has to really focus on a conversation to participate fully and I can't do that while I'm driving.

I also don't like it when we are in a small space and she starts to pepper me with questions.  She does this to me in the car, the bathroom, bedroom, etc.

[usagi]

Interesting update...

I've agreed to move back in with her and her son.  It really hit me out of the blue last week.  We had a stressful evening where she was fully expressing her fears of abandonment and not hearing what she needed to to from me to calm down (yes of course I will move back in with you immediately).

The following day she came home from work and without any threats or accusations she said that she really needed me to be living with her.  She just wanted to see me everyday when she came home.  That melted my heart a bit so we kept talking.  I swear in the next 5 minutes we covered more ground on how to avoid hurt feelings than we had in the past six months.  We both identified the major points of friction (hobby, work, parenting) and came up with a plan for each to change how things are going.

I actually felt a huge amount of relief.  I realize that this won't stop her tantrums and abuse but at least we've both come to an agreement about what we can do as a couple/family.

So we'll be moving into the apartment that she's already gotten and putting things in storage.  If we can keep it together for the next year then we'll look for a house together.

For my hobby I'll be sticking to a set schedule that we've both agreed on.  If there are any special events that come up that I want to attend I'll talk to her and we can work out ahead of time how to handle it.  I'll also not talk about my hobby around her and her son.

Work will be a normal 9 to 5 unless I have some things that I need to catch up on.  Then I'll talk to her about my need to work more and we can both agree to a time.  I'm also going to get away from working in the house.  I'll be renting a small office space nearby so I can go someplace where I can work undisturbed and focused.  Working from home has been impacting my efficiency - necessitating more work time to catch up.

She will be fully taking over the parenting work when we are together with her son.  When it's just him and me I'll do some "light" parenting.  My focus will be for now to have more positive experiences with him.  I'll be taking him on a trip, just the two of us, to do some bonding over a common interest.

We're also looking to rent a small studio near the apartment that can be used as a "relief valve".  Either one of us, and possibly her son, will be able to use the space whenever anyone needs some quiet alone time and or to break tension if there are arguments.  We've both admitted that we each need a little time to ourselves that we haven't been getting to recharge.

She even offered to "go get married" if that would help.  I said that we could talk about that someday but I didn't want to use that as a set of guard rails on our relationship somehow.

I'm feeling cautiously optimistic.  I'm still working through "Loving Someone with BPD" and will continue to hone my skills.  But I'm also going to keep focusing on making sure I get what I need.

[usagi]

It also seems like she's starting to accept the boundary that I'm not going to give a super detailed explanation of what changed last year.  Whenever that comes up I just say that I'm sorry that things have changed.  So we'll see...

[kells76]

The studio idea sounds like a good one; glad to hear you have some agreement on that.

You respecting your own boundaries also seems key, and it sounds like you understand that, too.

I think that ultimately, time and actions will tell if this is a real turning point. The phrases that stick with me are from the NEABPD Family Guidelines:

Remember that change is difficult to achieve and fraught with fears. Be cautious about suggesting that “great” progress has been made or giving “You can do it” reassurances. Progress evokes fears of abandonment.

Keep things cool and calm. Appreciation is normal. Tone it down. Disagreement is normal. Tone it down, too.

There will be ups and downs. Only you can decide, as you zoom out from the micro view (one incident) to the macro view (long term trend), what you accept in your life.

What might be some indications (that you could decide on privately, for yourself) that things aren't workable? What might be some indications that things are workable?

...

Keep us posted on how the trip goes. We're definitely rooting for all of you and for healing for your family.

[usagi]

What might be some indications (that you could decide on privately, for yourself) that things aren't workable? What might be some indications that things are workable?

Keep us posted on how the trip goes. We're definitely rooting for all of you and for healing for your family.

Thanks very much Kells.  I do feel the support from you all across the internets...

Some indicators that things would be unworkable are if after establishing these boundaries she keeps challenging them and if I'm made to feel like I need to give them up.  We've also got to get past this discussion of me "being defensive".  It comes up over and over.  Even when I feel like I'm being present and empathetic when she's caught up in strong emotions she'll often ask me later why I was defensive.  Another thing that would really be difficult for me to stay in the relationship is if I can't have things be about me once in a while.  I'm still really shocked that she tried to get into it with me after I had my colonoscopy while I was still coming out of sedation.  It can't ALWAYS be about her.

Again I really appreciate the support.

I picked her up from the airport just the morning.  She had been with her brother and his family for the eclipse.  Right after I picked her up she started saying that I needed to decide TODAY how to not be defensive.  I'm not sure what to do with that.  One thought I had is trying to talk with her about what she thinks it means to be defensive.  Clearly we have different thoughts on the matter.

Wish me luck =)