living and learning

[tina7868]

Hello fam  . I will start my new thread off with a quote from a fellow member.

Detaching doesn't mean giving up.  Detaching means finding yourself without him in the immediate picture.

I want to embrace this sentiment, and allow it to guide me. You can learn and grow from situations regardless of how they shake out. Indeed, I have already learned so much on my journey,  thanks in no small part to this community. The hardships that have come from falling for my ex, and the events that ensued, have allowed me to grow into the person I am today. I am trying to embrace all parts of myself, including how incredibly stubborn I can be, how I have anxious attachment (at least with this person in particular), how I have my own mental health struggles, and how incredibly hard it is for me to let go.

After pretty regular and pleasant back and forth for about 2 months, my ex blocked me. This makes me feel disappointed (look at me identifying my emotions  ). I know intellectually that this ghosting is not personal. I know that I can learn and improve my communication in the future. That being said, it wasn`t realistic of me to try to `control` what may trigger him. I also acknowledge that I`ve lost some spark. Talking to him, even as a friend, made life brighter for me. Maybe part of this detaching process is accepting that my `normal` isn`t going to be a recreation of the warm feelings I have when I interact with him. Maybe it looks different, more subdued, and that`s okay.

I sent him an e-mail (which is usually not blocked but who knows) expressing how I feel as best as I could, and I will leave it at that. He hasn`t replied, although he usually does, even when he is angry. I know this focus on his actions is pointless. I have leaned on support from friends, and it`s been a true blessing. How they are not tired of me and my repetive story I have no clue  . They seem to think that this blocking isn`t permanent, but it`s hard to convince myself of it .

I will update here about how I`m feeling. I don`t want to be afraid of my feelings anymore.

[tina7868]

Hello  . Life has been pretty busy recently. I have been focusing on work, exploring new neighbourhoods, spending time with friends. I have made an appointment with a new therapist because I felt like I wasn`t making much progress. The weather has been sunny, and the flowers and reawakening of nature that comes with spring has me in a happy mood.

Here is a message that I would have liked to send to him. I have been writing these in my journal, but today I felt like sharing.

Hello!

Hope you`re enjoying the sunshine! It`s been a chunk of time since you disappeared. Not sure what the right `protocol` is. I mean, logically speaking, you blocking me and not answering my e-mail indicates that you don`t want to speak to me. You didn`t say, this time, if you were mad, if I crossed a line, if you just need time, if you don`t think being friends can work out because I am a nut, or because I get too bold when I drink a lot of caffeine (someone actually told me to calm down the other day at work since I got too excited)...it`s hard not to ruminate about. Why do I care so much? Why do I send these messages into the void? I don`t have a complete answer to that, although several guesses, and hopefully more clarity with therapy and journaling and walks on the beach (although sometimes I get tired and hungry on these walks and end up feeling grumpy). Love, my childhood, attachment, the ups and downs of the relationship that give me hope but also make me sad, the dream of finally seeing you again.

I guess I don`t have much more of a point than telling you how I feel. I miss you a lot, and hope you`re well.

[ThanksForPlaying]

Keep learning. Keep posting here. Keep writing in your journal.

Don't send your loving messages into the void. It's so hard because it feels like maybe one more message will be the one that changes things for the better. But I think you know logically that it won't. I try to think of it like a transfer of love and energy. I'm sending my love into a black hole to be sucked up and destroyed by whatever is going on in their brain.

And sometimes I still send the messages - but it's easier for me to sit here and tell you not to. Hang in there.

[seekingtheway]

Hi Tina,

Reading your message made me feel sad, because you clearly have a lot of love to give, and it's being directed to someone who can't receive it... although that's the way when it comes to insecure attachments: we choose people we know aren't truly available for love, because that keeps us locked into old patterns and re-enforces old stories where love feels like yearning or longing for someone, rather than us feeling safe, accepted and that we are being loved consistently.

Did you decide to send this email in the end? I think it's good you shared it here...

Do you feel like him blocking you on the phone was him trying to set a boundary that he might actually stick to this time. How would that feel if he truly doesn't want any contact beyond here?

I'm glad to hear you booked in with a new therapist if you think you aren't making much progress with the current one. Have you done much work on your attachment elsewhere outside of therapy? The Personal Development School is so interesting and has a ton of content if you're looking for something new to try.

[ThanksForPlaying]

This topic is making me think about No Contact.

It's interesting how NC is a tool we talk about for protecting ourselves from BPD. But on the other hand, we don't do well when the pwBPD gives us the NC silent treatment (at least I don't). It hurts.

What's the difference?

NC is a non-natural behavior that generally hurts people, right? It's normal to be hurt by NC I think. The natural behavior is to put people in the grey area. You can dial a relationship down to 10% or 5% or even less, without totally disowning someone at 0%. We do this all the time with long lost friends and even exes.

Is the difference that pwBPD use NC as a weapon to punish and recycle? They use it to abandon and un-abandon people at a time of their choosing, in order to try to make themselves feel in control.

And the reason Nons need to learn NC is because it's an unnatural behavior but it's an effective and necessary tool for protecting ourselves from the pain of BPD?

[tina7868]

Thank you for your replies, it means a lot to me  !

Keep learning. Keep posting here. Keep writing in your journal.

Don't send your loving messages into the void. It's so hard because it feels like maybe one more message will be the one that changes things for the better. But I think you know logically that it won't. I try to think of it like a transfer of love and energy. I'm sending my love into a black hole to be sucked up and destroyed by whatever is going on in their brain.

And sometimes I still send the messages - but it's easier for me to sit here and tell you not to. Hang in there.

I can relate to the `one more message` point a lot. I think, with the history of our relationship (and maybe yours too), this idea was reinforced; sometimes my messages did seem to make a difference. I`m realizing that sometimes they do, but often times they don`t. Sending them provides temporary relief for my anxiety, yet that anxiety returns when the message goes unanswered. Then, I`m left thinking `well now I`ve sent 4 unanswered messages, I should have stopped at 3`.

I am the one who reinitiated contact this time because I noticed that I was unblocked. I hadn`t spoken to him in 6 months at that point. I hadn`t sent any of these types of messages either. I don`t think, in all honesty, that he would have reached out himself. A part of me realized that I have to act a little `wonky` in order to engage with him. I use `wonky` in a kind way to mean being okay with putting it all out there, being rejected. The question I could ask myself then is - is a relationship that plays out like a `slot machine`, where I send vulnerable messages that sometimes go unanswered worth persuing? (I don`t have an answer to that)

Hi Tina,

Reading your message made me feel sad, because you clearly have a lot of love to give, and it's being directed to someone who can't receive it... although that's the way when it comes to insecure attachments: we choose people we know aren't truly available for love, because that keeps us locked into old patterns and re-enforces old stories where love feels like yearning or longing for someone, rather than us feeling safe, accepted and that we are being loved consistently.

Did you decide to send this email in the end? I think it's good you shared it here...

Do you feel like him blocking you on the phone was him trying to set a boundary that he might actually stick to this time. How would that feel if he truly doesn't want any contact beyond here?

I'm glad to hear you booked in with a new therapist if you think you aren't making much progress with the current one. Have you done much work on your attachment elsewhere outside of therapy? The Personal Development School is so interesting and has a ton of content if you're looking for something new to try.

Hey seekingtheway! I didn`t end up sending the message. I think if I were to send a message it would have to have more of a point in order to be worth it for me. As in I`m writing the message for myself in order to let go. I think this last one was just me writing to tell him I miss him.

I think it is possible that this blocking is a boundary that he will maintain from here of out. It`s very hard for me to accept. I have done some reading on attachment, but haven`t concretely worked on any exercises as of yet. I`ll check out this ressource! Thanks for the recommendation!

This topic is making me think about No Contact.

It's interesting how NC is a tool we talk about for protecting ourselves from BPD. But on the other hand, we don't do well when the pwBPD gives us the NC silent treatment (at least I don't). It hurts.

What's the difference?

NC is a non-natural behavior that generally hurts people, right? It's normal to be hurt by NC I think. The natural behavior is to put people in the grey area. You can dial a relationship down to 10% or 5% or even less, without totally disowning someone at 0%. We do this all the time with long lost friends and even exes.

Is the difference that pwBPD use NC as a weapon to punish and recycle? They use it to abandon and un-abandon people at a time of their choosing, in order to try to make themselves feel in control.

And the reason Nons need to learn NC is because it's an unnatural behavior but it's an effective and necessary tool for protecting ourselves from the pain of BPD?

You bring up an interesting point. To me, thinking about this makes me towards him. Honestly, I don`t think he wants to punish me. I`ve witnessed him blocking other people. I think that he feels overwhelmed, and hurt, and wants control. In this case, he had flirted with me, and didn`t like when I did it back as it would mean jeopardizing his relationship, and all his eggs are in that basket. He couldn`t explain in his own mind what was going on - was I disrespecting his boundaries, but hadn`t he also made a comment and spoken to me? What did it mean? He wouldn`t be able to navigate the nuance, it was beyond the limits of his own emotional capabilities, and so as a defence he blocked me.

[ThanksForPlaying]

The question I could ask myself then is - is a relationship that plays out like a `slot machine`, where I send vulnerable messages that sometimes go unanswered worth persuing? (I don`t have an answer to that)

Great question. Google "random positive reinforcement". It's the most powerful incentive system.

If you give a piece of cheese to a laboratory mouse each time he presses a button, he'll eventually get bored. And if you give a reward each time, and then stop giving the reward, the mouse will quickly stop pressing the button.

But if you RANDOMLY reward the mouse only SOME of the time, he'll never get bored. In fact, the mouse will continue to press the button LONG after you STOP giving any cheese and leave the room. Because he knows it's random, and maybe the next press is the one that gets the cheese.

This is why slot machines are addictive. And iPhones are addictive because we randomly receive alerts and emails. (If you set your alerts to only be delivered twice a day on a schedule, your phone addiction will lessen considerably).

And it's also probably why dysfunctional relationships can be so addicting. We get randomly rewarded with tidbits of happiness, and we keep pressing the button long after the cheese is gone.

[tina7868]

And it's also probably why dysfunctional relationships can be so addicting. We get randomly rewarded with tidbits of happiness, and we keep pressing the button long after the cheese is gone.

Or the cheese starts to taste different  .

I think this is certainly a factor at play. Couple that with my own tendencies towards obsessive-compulsive behaviour, and anxiety, and you have a clear explanation for why I have such difficulty letting go. It's one thing to explain, and another thing to live with.

How do I remove myself from the situation? By creating closure for myself, seeing the relationship quite differently, and getting that support in therapy to keep up with my decisions. I can do it, it just requires effort that I thought I had already put in enough of  . Alright, here is an action plan:

- creating closure for myself : writing a message that gives me my own closure. it's been about a month since he blocked me, I think that is a good limit for myself on how long I am willing to 'wait'
- seeing the relationship differently : this isn't the dream that I have so often characterized it as. he was serving a purpose to me as the object of my affections (which i will explore in therapy). he isn't showing up, in this moment, as someone who is bringing value to my life.

[ThanksForPlaying]

Good plan!

You can also begin to train your brain to receive regular positive reinforcement without depending on him. Friends and this board can provide some of that.

This is where some people find daily affirmations helpful. Regular doses of positivity can help counteract the chaos.

You may already have a good daily routine with your compulsive tendencies. Routines can be helpful to get regular, positive reinforcement - whether that's a daily cup of coffee or just making your bed to start the day. The most obvious example of this is professional athletes who use daily training routines to counteract the chaos and randomness of competition. If they just winged it every day, the training wouldn't be as effective.

Stick to your plan - I like it.

[tina7868]

Good plan!

You can also begin to train your brain to receive regular positive reinforcement without depending on him. Friends and this board can provide some of that.

This is where some people find daily affirmations helpful. Regular doses of positivity can help counteract the chaos.

You may already have a good daily routine with your compulsive tendencies. Routines can be helpful to get regular, positive reinforcement - whether that's a daily cup of coffee or just making your bed to start the day. The most obvious example of this is professional athletes who use daily training routines to counteract the chaos and randomness of competition. If they just winged it every day, the training wouldn't be as effective.

Stick to your plan - I like it.

Thank you for being so encouraging

I feel like I need to re-learn some rather basic things about myself, which leads me to feel disappointed. What things do I like doing for me? Do I care too much about what people think? How can I enjoy my own company? What things do I want to work towards, for myself?

I guess if I change my perspective, and see this as an opportunity to get to know myself even more, then I feel better. And to be proud of my own tenacity, and willpower to never give up . Lots to learn in this life!

I`ll make a list of positive things that I like doing for myself, that I can come back to when I feel low:

- I`ll look into affirmations! Any recommendations?
- Drinking coffee makes me happy
- Sitting in the sun
- Reading a good book
- Embroidery (well, crafting in general)
- Going for a walk, buying myself a `treat` (a new plant!)
- Calling a friend and having them hang out `in the background` while I go about my daily tasks
- Doing some pilates or yoga
- Watching a comedy show
- Baking or cooking
- Posting here about my progress, or whatever I`m thinking

And when I do think about him, sending positivity and love from afar, wishing him the best, etc. tends to work better than ruminating about what happened, fantasizing, etc.

[tina7868]

Hello  !

I know this isn`t the realization of the century, but sitting with my feelings has made me aware of how much interacting with him was actually hurting me. I was fooling myself into believing I was okay with him being in a relationship, while in reality I still loved him very much. It`s weird. It feels as though I am only `digesting` my feelings now, weeks later. It also feels like my own mind is what is hurting me. 

Take this example. I was thinking of a destination I`d like to visit, maybe even move to some day. Then I remember that he visited this place with his girlfriend, for her birthday (how sweet!). He texted me that whole weekend, all day (kind of odd). My mind imagines them there together, and it hurts now. Maybe there is a way I can reframe these thoughts.

All in all, it sort of makes things better (and I`ll take what I can get  ) because at the very least I`m in a neutral territory of peace without him in my life. Maybe the reframing I can do is to tell myself that I don`t want to make myself feel hurt like that again, and that I won`t be putting myself in that situation.

[seekingtheway]

I do think this is where it's at - focusing on the fact that you do deserve so much better than that. Little morsels and breadcrumbs (messages and contact of any sort) that provide a bit of a dopamine hit - but really serve to prevent you from moving on and being happy, and prevent him from being emotionally available in his current relationship.

Without being certain of his intentions, it's possible he was just using contact with you as a means to not have to focus fully on the demands of intimacy in his current relationship. It's an escape for him in a way. And allows him to stay in the relationship with one foot out as it were...

The resource I mentioned before - the personal development school, you might find it interesting to look at the fearful avoidant attachment. And how they operate in relationships. I think fearful avoidant attachment is like a dulled-down version of BPD. And some experts think that all borderlines will have a fearful avoidant attachment (though there are definitely different opinions on this). Either way, it all makes sense as to why people keep in touch with ex-partners when you look at it through an attachment lens (it's usually an avoidant tactic to avoid true emotional intimacy)... and why we put up with breadcrumbs when you look at it through an attachment lens (because we feel like we have to earn and work for love rather than it just being given)... and that is one of the places where the healing can happen.

I'm saying this whilst also being in the same space as you. Needing to connect again with who I am and remembering what I deserve... you sound like such a lovely person and although I wish it were a simple thing to tell someone that they deserve so much more and it's better to just cut contact and walk away, heal and find someone else... I do understand and empathise so deeply with how hard this is in practice at times.

[tina7868]

Thanks for your reply, seekingtheway.

I do think this is where it's at - focusing on the fact that you do deserve so much better than that. Little morsels and breadcrumbs (messages and contact of any sort) that provide a bit of a dopamine hit - but really serve to prevent you from moving on and being happy, and prevent him from being emotionally available in his current relationship.

Without being certain of his intentions, it's possible he was just using contact with you as a means to not have to focus fully on the demands of intimacy in his current relationship. It's an escape for him in a way. And allows him to stay in the relationship with one foot out as it were...

I do want better for myself. I was so focused on the joy that the back and forth brought me that I ignoring my feelings. I put myself in a very vulnerable position that anyone from an outside perspective would agree was not the best choice (I`m sure a lot of you saw this as well, thanks for still being here    ).

I do recognize that how he was behaving wasn`t fair to his girlfriend, nor to me. I don`t think it was intentional though.

That being said, how I`m learning that how I view things matters.

For example, if I see him telling me that his current attraction to his girlfriend is mundane compared to his attraction to me means that he regrets losing me, then 1) I am making assumptions, 2) tying my self-worth to his comments, and 3) keeping myself invested. Instead, I can think that his comment is a reflection of his own unresolved emotions and that it doesn`t define my worth, because I`m focusing on my own well-being. Then his actions become more a reflection of his own emotional state, my self-worth isn`t involved. I can just wish him well on his own journey when it comes to his feelings, without waiting around or having any personal investment in it.

I'm saying this whilst also being in the same space as you. Needing to connect again with who I am and remembering what I deserve... you sound like such a lovely person and although I wish it were a simple thing to tell someone that they deserve so much more and it's better to just cut contact and walk away, heal and find someone else... I do understand and empathise so deeply with how hard this is in practice at times.

I feel you! It`s a great space to learn from, though. After this latest experience, I feel strongly about the boundary that I don`t want to talk to him while he is in a relationship. I can wish him well, and have space for the memories and love in my heart, but being privy to his daily life hurts me (even if I didn`t realize it immediately). I don`t want to have to second guess everything I have to say, and because I do still care for him, it`s too easy for me to fall into caring `too much`, which isn`t good for either of us.

So yes, ideally I`d have realized this before, but I went through it and can now appreciate why I have to set this boundary.

I think I have to work on being comfortable with the unknown, being better aware of my emotions, focusing on the present, and gently reframing my thoughts when they veer towards negativity. It`s not a bad place to be in 

[jaded7]

Thanks for your reply, seekingtheway.
I do want better for myself. I was so focused on the joy that the back and forth brought me that I ignoring my feelings. I put myself in a very vulnerable position that anyone from an outside perspective would agree was not the best choice (I`m sure a lot of you saw this as well, thanks for still being here    ).

I do recognize that how he was behaving wasn`t fair to his girlfriend, nor to me. I don`t think it was intentional though.

That being said, how I`m learning that how I view things matters.

For example, if I see him telling me that his current attraction to his girlfriend is mundane compared to his attraction to me means that he regrets losing me, then 1) I am making assumptions, 2) tying my self-worth to his comments, and 3) keeping myself invested. Instead, I can think that his comment is a reflection of his own unresolved emotions and that it doesn`t define my worth, because I`m focusing on my own well-being. Then his actions become more a reflection of his own emotional state, my self-worth isn`t involved. I can just wish him well on his own journey when it comes to his feelings, without waiting around or having any personal investment in it.

I feel you! It`s a great space to learn from, though. After this latest experience, I feel strongly about the boundary that I don`t want to talk to him while he is in a relationship. I can wish him well, and have space for the memories and love in my heart, but being privy to his daily life hurts me (even if I didn`t realize it immediately). I don`t want to have to second guess everything I have to say, and because I do still care for him, it`s too easy for me to fall into caring `too much`, which isn`t good for either of us.

So yes, ideally I`d have realized this before, but I went through it and can now appreciate why I have to set this boundary.

I think I have to work on being comfortable with the unknown, being better aware of my emotions, focusing on the present, and gently reframing my thoughts when they veer towards negativity. It`s not a bad place to be in 

Hi Tina, I'll just echo what other's are saying. You seem to have such a big heart, and are so thoughtful. So often I think to myself that I feel just like you do regarding all the mess with the BPD partner. We both have a hard time letting go.

Something that has been forefront in my mind ever since the relationship ended is that SHE would never accept from ME the treatment I got from her.

Never. She would call that abusive behavior and tell a female friend to leave a man who did these things.

Her behavior was objectively abusive. Textbook, objective. No questions about it. The things like yelling, pointing fingers in my face in anger, name calling, put downs, belittling, lying, gaslighting, violently pulling off the highway threatening to make me walk, snapping, explosive anger, mocking my voice, violating explicit boundaries.

And all the other stuff under that umbrella like bread crumbing, invalidation, devaluing, ghosting (ignoring calls and messages for days, a week).

So...why do I miss her? Why do I think I still love her?

For me, it's been a deep deep journey into the self, and why I feel the way I do. This is my work to do.

I haven't tried to contact her at all since the final, awful phone conversation. I'm proud of myself for that. And I still miss her. Again, my inner work to do.

The post above mentioned attachment styles. I have watched that same channel, and there are some good things in there. I'm not certain about the woman's qualifications, but it is a very popular channel.

I have deep, deep attachment to her. I still do. I know that is my issue to explore and understand. Learning about attachment styles is interesting and gives a bridge to deeper things in our family of origin and experiences growing up. So I think that's useful.

Just here to support you and share a little bit if it might be helpful.

[tina7868]

Thanks for your reply, jaded7.

Hi Tina, I'll just echo what other's are saying. You seem to have such a big heart, and are so thoughtful. So often I think to myself that I feel just like you do regarding all the mess with the BPD partner. We both have a hard time letting go.

Something that has been forefront in my mind ever since the relationship ended is that SHE would never accept from ME the treatment I got from her.

Never. She would call that abusive behavior and tell a female friend to leave a man who did these things.

Her behavior was objectively abusive. Textbook, objective. No questions about it. The things like yelling, pointing fingers in my face in anger, name calling, put downs, belittling, lying, gaslighting, violently pulling off the highway threatening to make me walk, snapping, explosive anger, mocking my voice, violating explicit boundaries.

And all the other stuff under that umbrella like bread crumbing, invalidation, devaluing, ghosting (ignoring calls and messages for days, a week).

So...why do I miss her? Why do I think I still love her?

For me, it's been a deep deep journey into the self, and why I feel the way I do. This is my work to do.

I haven't tried to contact her at all since the final, awful phone conversation. I'm proud of myself for that. And I still miss her. Again, my inner work to do.

The post above mentioned attachment styles. I have watched that same channel, and there are some good things in there. I'm not certain about the woman's qualifications, but it is a very popular channel.

I have deep, deep attachment to her. I still do. I know that is my issue to explore and understand. Learning about attachment styles is interesting and gives a bridge to deeper things in our family of origin and experiences growing up. So I think that's useful.

Just here to support you and share a little bit if it might be helpful.

Thank you for sharing your experience! It certainly is helpful for me to read, as I`m sure it is for others. I feel less alone in my own experience. I think you`re spot on when it comes the double standard involved. You should definitely celebrate your journey so far, in not contacting her, and in doing inner work. It takes a lot of courage to face our own selves. You`re doing this for you. I`m sorry that you still miss her, I can relate to that feeling quite a lot. It speaks to your capacity to care for someone. Loving and letting go may be one of the harder lessons, that both of us are actively learning.

For me, my `bridge` to deeper things (I like the way you put it!) has been CBT. My first appointment with an experienced CBT therapist is coming up soon. I`m seeing my approach going forward as picking up tools to apply in the here and now. I think that attachment styles are certainly at play here, and I will be sure to mention them during my appointment. Knowing myself though, when I start watching too many of these types of videos, it`s hard for me to stop. Seeing my thoughts and feelings as something I can seperate myself from, that are telling me information but don`t have to mean anything very deep, has been helpful.

I cared for him, I adored him, I mixed up obsession and love. I was so stubborn that I didn`t realize that I was feeling hurt and disappointment. I thought that I was being emotionally mature by telling myself I could be a part of his life, it felt like it was worth it in the moment to ask him what they were having for supper (and tell him I was cooking up pasta), when not so deep down I wanted to be cooking for him! Who was I kidding? I was looking through my memory box, and came accross a letter I had written to him 4 years ago. It was filled with an equal amount of loving, pedestal putting, you are the best thing since sliced bread sentiments. How did I feel reading this? My heart warmed. I have been consistently loving this boy for years. It`s going to take me a while to get over it. I don`t think it`s a fault in my character, but rather a strength. I wouldn`t rather be another away. It really is his loss. I`ll still be me, though, and the fact that I like myself makes it all the more easier to believe that I`ll feel this way again some day, with the right person.

[Augustine]

What a profound sea change, and I’m certain that all of us are collectively breathing a sigh of relief.

There nothing on this earth harder to do than walking away, and you are to be commended, as every other life entanglement is as easily accomplished as sipping tea at a church fête by comparison.

Bravo.

[SinisterComplex]

Thanks for your reply, jaded7.
Thank you for sharing your experience! It certainly is helpful for me to read, as I`m sure it is for others. I feel less alone in my own experience. I think you`re spot on when it comes the double standard involved. You should definitely celebrate your journey so far, in not contacting her, and in doing inner work. It takes a lot of courage to face our own selves. You`re doing this for you. I`m sorry that you still miss her, I can relate to that feeling quite a lot. It speaks to your capacity to care for someone. Loving and letting go may be one of the harder lessons, that both of us are actively learning.

For me, my `bridge` to deeper things (I like the way you put it!) has been CBT. My first appointment with an experienced CBT therapist is coming up soon. I`m seeing my approach going forward as picking up tools to apply in the here and now. I think that attachment styles are certainly at play here, and I will be sure to mention them during my appointment. Knowing myself though, when I start watching too many of these types of videos, it`s hard for me to stop. Seeing my thoughts and feelings as something I can seperate myself from, that are telling me information but don`t have to mean anything very deep, has been helpful.

I cared for him, I adored him, I mixed up obsession and love. I was so stubborn that I didn`t realize that I was feeling hurt and disappointment. I thought that I was being emotionally mature by telling myself I could be a part of his life, it felt like it was worth it in the moment to ask him what they were having for supper (and tell him I was cooking up pasta), when not so deep down I wanted to be cooking for him! Who was I kidding? I was looking through my memory box, and came accross a letter I had written to him 4 years ago. It was filled with an equal amount of loving, pedestal putting, you are the best thing since sliced bread sentiments. How did I feel reading this? My heart warmed. I have been consistently loving this boy for years. It`s going to take me a while to get over it. I don`t think it`s a fault in my character, but rather a strength. I wouldn`t rather be another away. It really is his loss. I`ll still be me, though, and the fact that I like myself makes it all the more easier to believe that I`ll feel this way again some day, with the right person.

Tina my dear..."makes it all the more easier to believe that I`ll feel this way again some day, with the right person." - Yes....1000% yes, but...no more just saying it. Put it into practice and start living it. No more staying stuck in neutral...put the damn car in drive and push that damn pedal to the floor and move forward now. Anything other than a yes sir or that is what I am going to do! will not be accepted 

Now head up, eyes forward, heart open to new opportunities.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

[tina7868]

@Augustine : I am smiling at your reply, I think friends and family also partake in the sighing  .

@SC : You got it  . I am so thankful for this community, I have learned and grown (and learned again, and grown more) in ways that I couldn`t have imagined. It`s like my wounds opened up and healed. They don`t scare me.

I will continue to update here! 

I have taken a lot of comfort in music. Here a song that really speaks to me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8b4gCxXFPyo

Here are the particular lyrics that hit the spot :

Love is a selfish thing after all
Wish I didn't dream about you no more
Oh, you never really cared, as I needed
No, you never really cared, but I did

The sun comes up like she used to
And settles down like she used to
You're not around like you used to
I would wait, wait for you just like I used to
Go scream it at the ceiling
Go scream it at the ceiling
I feel way better now I'm not with you
I feel way better now I'm not with you
Go scream it at the ceiling
Go scream it at the ceiling
I feel way better now I'm not with you
I feel way better now I'm not with you

Is there a word for when you feel so understood by the lyrics of a song, that they break your heart and simultaneously heal it? I`m being a bit dramatic probably  . You never really cared, but I did.

[tina7868]

A lot to catch up on! I am hoping that writing about it will help me process.

I`ve been super busy and stressed with work. So that`s one component.

I made the decision to let go of my ex. I wrote that letter, and told myself that I will maintain my boundary of not engaging with him while he is in a relationship. I recognized that it hurt me a lot, even if I didn`t realize it at the time.

I had my first session with my new therapist. It went well, and I will be going forward with CBT. I am looking forward to that. A lot of work to put in, but will be worth it in the long run.

Meanwhile, my ex contacted me saying he broke up with his girlfriend (it seems like she did the breaking up). He became suicidal and is undergoing treatment. I feel mixed emotions. He is being kind, reflective, engaging. I want to be there for him, this is a hard time and I care so much about him. No one should be alone at a time like this. But I don`t want to put myself in a position again where I am getting hurt without even realizing it.

My boundary was that I will not engage with him while he is in a relationship. However, some things he says now do make me sad, like that he is heartbroken that people can come and go from your life (I assume he means his ex). I mean I understand him very much because I feel the same way, but I feel that way about him. He had some reflections about our relationship. He said that our relationship was very intense (probably since my anxiety combined with BPD made for a huge mismatch), he knows I care and he`s thankful. I feel like I let him down.

[tina7868]

To recap, you guys were right, he did end up reaching out again.

His gf broke up with him, he was in a very very dark place. He was looking for comfort, and I gave it to him, because I care about him deeply. Late night calls, unconditional support.

He starts talking about working on himself. To get her back. Or to be with someone who will love him. Not someone like me, he might as well add. I tell him he doesn’t have to prove himself to anyone. I can’t hear it anymore. I can’t be there for him. It’s hard to tell him this, since he’s not in a space to receive it.

I know I’m supposed to put myself first. I have no choice. But for me, loving someone means that sometimes you do put their needs ahead of your own, because in many ways them feeling loved is what makes you happy. It’s your pleasure, what your priority is.

He didn’t love me for all these years. I have to keep telling myself that. He cared, at most as a friend. I didn’t let go, and that’s why I feel this way.

[seekingtheway]

Hi Tina,

Your new CBT therapy sounds great - I'm glad you've found something you think will work well for you.

Re your ex - you mentioned you felt like you let him down? In what way did you mean?

It sounds like you've come to some very sad realisations about the relationship in the last few weeks. I can imagine it felt good to some extent that he reached out to you to be there for him when he needed someone. But then in other ways it's highlighted the disparity in terms of how he sees you and the part you play in his life, compared to the part you hoped he would play in yours.

It appears simple really - he's come to you because he needs something, and he probably knows that you're willing to help him. But he hasn't thought about it from your perspective - how him talking about getting his ex back, or finding a new love would affect a previous partner. And it sounds as though he does have an idea of how you feel about him, otherwise there wouldn't have been the blocking shenanigans going on over the recent months. It's this insane inability to hold true empathy that really blows me away sometimes... but that's how it goes with Cluster B personalities so often, so it makes sense it would happen that way, but it's disappointing nonetheless.

The realisation that you weren't loved in the same way that you loved him... all the effort you put into unconditionally and selflessly loving him... but then those stark moments where you realise it's just not returned... that stuff hurts.

How are you feeling about it now? Did you explain to him that you can't be there for him for this? How did he take it?

[tina7868]

How are you feeling about it now? Did you explain to him that you can't be there for him for this? How did he take it?

Hi seekingtheway! Thanks for your reply. I feel understood  .

It does hurt, and it will probably take time to process. To realize, finally, that I was reading into his confusing and dramatic actions as signs of unresolved feelings for me. In reality, they were all motivated by protecting himself. He had gotten over me a very long time ago.

I had been thinking about how I wanted to tell him how I felt. Unfortunately, it ended up being blurted out as we spoke over the phone. Over messages, I could pause and convince myself I was happy if he was happy, and reply in a supportive way. My voice betrayed me though, and he asked me directly if I still have feelings for him. I couldn`t lie. I said that I knew this wasn`t the best timing since he has a lot going on. He said he felt frustrated because he thought he had my support. He said he can`t say yes or no (to dating I guess) now, and it won`t be something he could revisit in a matter of days, or even weeks. I said I understood, and it was unfortunate because I wish I could be there. I explained that it was around the time his family member passed away that I felt the limitations of how much I could be there for him. He seemed to emphasize that I could do the things I spoke of (cooking for him, giving him a hug, supporting him) as a friend, but again I said there were too many limitations (he wasn`t coming home to me, when he did have a partner they should be his main support, etc.). He said I need to put myself first, and we should end the conversation for now, and I agreed.

After a couple of days, I was willing to revisit the topic. I know I care for him in an unhealthy way, it`s hard for me to imagine him suffering and not at least try to help. I told myself, okay, he doesn`t want to be with me, so what? It`s not the end of the world. However, he said he is now uncomfortable sharing with me. So, I left him two final messages.

In the first message, I told him that he speaks of needing to change himself, to prove himself, to return to his previous partner, as though he wasn`t good enough (this is why I had sort of gotten defensive over the phone I realize). I said that therapy can help him acquire skills and gain insights, but he himself, as a person, is perfect. He doesn`t need to change himself.

In the second message, I said he should be with someone who supports him and cares for him, who doesn`t turn away from him when he is struggling. For many years, we have had ups and downs, yet he always comes back to me when he feels shaky. Why? I provide support, unconditionally, comfort, understanding. That is the basis of a relationship.

He replied `that`s actually really kind, thank you`.

---

It`s like he put me in a silo where all I offer is that support, and when he feels better, he leaves again. This way, he could be with a partner who doesn`t fulfill all his needs, because he had me tucked away for when things got really bad. Which is unfortunate for me, because I only see him and feel attached to him when he is down, but it`s also his loss, because I have so much to offer beyond filling this support role. Even as a friend, I don`t think he reciprocated true friendship, otherwise he`d have asked me how I felt in this role all along.

[tina7868]

So I`m ready to move forward, again, with an open wound but also an open heart, knowing that in the end I stayed true to myself by being vulnerable, honest, and most importantly, kind. That`s all the closure that I need.

I am sad that he didn't appreciate who I could have been to him as a partner. In the end, that`s a part of life. I cannot wait for him to have any realizations. Whatever is meant to be will be, and not because I tortured myself along the way. I am hopeful that therapy will help me. I wish him well.

[seekingtheway]

I think you nailed it there in your description about him having put you in a silo in terms of just being there to offer support and then he leaves again once he feels better. That's a pretty powerful realisation.

And it's definitely not a true friendship either – imagine if one of your actual friends treated you that way? Came running when they were down and asking for your time and energy, but refused to engage beyond that, and blocked you every now and then when they felt like it. We simply wouldn't tolerate that from our friends.

It's helpful I think to remember that what someone with BPD is actually looking for is the perfect parent - they are trying to solve or soothe something from their childhood, and their relationships are dependent on someone else meeting the needs of this immature, wounded, underdeveloped part of their brain. It doesn't actually matter what your needs are, as long as you are fulfilling this role. So no, that's not the true definition of a mature romantic love, or anywhere close to it.

Aside from the fact that it feels good to you to be able to support and help, he's not actually meeting your needs at all, so I'm glad that you're seeing it through this lens, as painful as that is.

Sometimes we have to see things from different angles in order for them to settle into us properly... we can know all the things logically and still not be ready to integrate it and accept it and truly leave it behind...

I've been through a similar realisation with my just in the last week. I'll maybe post on it separately another time, but I had the same lightning bolt... he simply didn't and doesn't love me in the same way I loved him. Even though he was the one proclaiming all the amazing things about love forever, soulmates, and never letting me go, he was simply trying to stop himself from being alone. His love for me was never about me. It hurts a lot, I really do get it... to be unseen and used for what you give rather than who you are... that's not love.

Even if he does have some realisations in the coming weeks or months, which might potentially happen if he is on his own, and you're now seemingly leaving him as well... so be prepared?? But even if he did have all the realisations, the question is does he have the emotional maturity or skills to ever have a relationship where you are appreciated for who you are? And there is reciprocity and interdependence? If you try and project beyond the here and now, which is a painful game of cat and mouse... being in a relationship with someone with BPD traits is most likely going to be a painful and exhausting, and one where your need are unlikely to be important.

[tina7868]

Thanks again for your thoughtful reply, seekingtheway  .

I think you nailed it there in your description about him having put you in a silo in terms of just being there to offer support and then he leaves again once he feels better. That's a pretty powerful realisation.

It may take me a while to process this, this painful truth that hurts me because on my end I was so utterly devoted to him. I idealized him, what I imagined our life could be if only he `gave me the chance`. I made him into something he was not.

It's helpful I think to remember that what someone with BPD is actually looking for is the perfect parent - they are trying to solve or soothe something from their childhood, and their relationships are dependent on someone else meeting the needs of this immature, wounded, underdeveloped part of their brain. It doesn't actually matter what your needs are, as long as you are fulfilling this role. So no, that's not the true definition of a mature romantic love, or anywhere close to it.

Aside from the fact that it feels good to you to be able to support and help, he's not actually meeting your needs at all, so I'm glad that you're seeing it through this lens, as painful as that is.

This makes me feel sad for him. That he is on one hand a person lost and looking for love, and yet on the other hand is unable to recognize it, and even sabotages it when it is given to him.

I`m sorry that you are going through a similar situation. You express yourself with such clarity and understanding (which helps me), which I know is only one piece of the puzzle, but it feels like a big one when it comes to coming to terms with these relationships we have found ourselves in.

Even if he does have some realisations in the coming weeks or months, which might potentially happen if he is on his own, and you're now seemingly leaving him as well... so be prepared?? But even if he did have all the realisations, the question is does he have the emotional maturity or skills to ever have a relationship where you are appreciated for who you are? And there is reciprocity and interdependence? If you try and project beyond the here and now, which is a painful game of cat and mouse... being in a relationship with someone with BPD traits is most likely going to be a painful and exhausting, and one where your need are unlikely to be important.

This makes me ponder, and I will write my thoughts out (although maybe not in a logical order). First, it`s weird for me to not be blocked (which is a sad statement I know  ). Second, I myself have anxiety/ocd coming into play. I haven`t had enough therapy sessions to feel entirely settled yet, but I really hope that managing that aspect will allow for me to feel more peace. Third, I want to recognize that I have grown a lot and gained skills and have a softness to me that will one day make me a good partner to someone (and which already make me a good friend). I feel like after interacting with him, and having him dismiss me, my belief in myself was affected (which I don`t like!). It made me feel like if only I was a different way (more like his ex, less anxious, more firm, more self-assured) then maybe he`d recognize me. Even if it was true, why would I want to change myself for a relationship? If someone wants to be with someone who has blue hair, cool, I don`t have blue hair but that doesn`t take away from my value. I am soft and caring, doting and maternal, I am working on myself and I don`t need anyone`s approval.

[jaded7]

I think you nailed it there in your description about him having put you in a silo in terms of just being there to offer support and then he leaves again once he feels better. That's a pretty powerful realisation.

And it's definitely not a true friendship either – imagine if one of your actual friends treated you that way? Came running when they were down and asking for your time and energy, but refused to engage beyond that, and blocked you every now and then when they felt like it. We simply wouldn't tolerate that from our friends.

It's helpful I think to remember that what someone with BPD is actually looking for is the perfect parent - they are trying to solve or soothe something from their childhood, and their relationships are dependent on someone else meeting the needs of this immature, wounded, underdeveloped part of their brain. It doesn't actually matter what your needs are, as long as you are fulfilling this role. So no, that's not the true definition of a mature romantic love, or anywhere close to it.

Aside from the fact that it feels good to you to be able to support and help, he's not actually meeting your needs at all, so I'm glad that you're seeing it through this lens, as painful as that is.

Sometimes we have to see things from different angles in order for them to settle into us properly... we can know all the things logically and still not be ready to integrate it and accept it and truly leave it behind...

I've been through a similar realisation with my just in the last week. I'll maybe post on it separately another time, but I had the same lightning bolt... he simply didn't and doesn't love me in the same way I loved him. Even though he was the one proclaiming all the amazing things about love forever, soulmates, and never letting me go, he was simply trying to stop himself from being alone. His love for me was never about me. It hurts a lot, I really do get it... to be unseen and used for what you give rather than who you are... that's not love.

Even if he does have some realisations in the coming weeks or months, which might potentially happen if he is on his own, and you're now seemingly leaving him as well... so be prepared?? But even if he did have all the realisations, the question is does he have the emotional maturity or skills to ever have a relationship where you are appreciated for who you are? And there is reciprocity and interdependence? If you try and project beyond the here and now, which is a painful game of cat and mouse... being in a relationship with someone with BPD traits is most likely going to be a painful and exhausting, and one where your need are unlikely to be important.

Really thoughtful response seeking. thank you for sharing this.

And Tina, you are doing such good work. It's inspiring. What a great community we have here.

This response mad me think of th time in my early relationship, very early on, when she cried and said "will you take care of me?". I of course said yes, but knowing all I know now I think it's related to what seeking says here about having a parent who magically knows your needs without you asking, who gives up everything in order to 'take care' of you, who doesn't get frustrated with you, etc. My therapist told me that if I ever have a partner who says that to me to just run.

Good work Tina and Seeking.

[SinisterComplex]

Really thoughtful response seeking. thank you for sharing this.

And Tina, you are doing such good work. It's inspiring. What a great community we have here.

This response mad me think of th time in my early relationship, very early on, when she cried and said "will you take care of me?". I of course said yes, but knowing all I know now I think it's related to what seeking says here about having a parent who magically knows your needs without you asking, who gives up everything in order to 'take care' of you, who doesn't get frustrated with you, etc. My therapist told me that if I ever have a partner who says that to me to just run.

Good work Tina and Seeking.

There is truth there that it is a giveaway if you hear the words will you take care of me? If you hear that you should certainly have alarm bells go off, but of course the context matters and the tone matters and when it is said and applied matters. Nonetheless, the phrase is not necessarily innocent. In truth it is a phrase that screams out lost child and I do not understand how to get my needs met and I do not understand unconditional love.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

[seekingtheway]

There is truth there that it is a giveaway if you hear the words will you take care of me? If you hear that you should certainly have alarm bells go off, but of course the context matters and the tone matters and when it is said and applied matters. Nonetheless, the phrase is not necessarily innocent. In truth it is a phrase that screams out lost child and I do not understand how to get my needs met and I do not understand unconditional love.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

I do have a story about this phrase actually... my ex with BPD traits told me that his ex-wife said these exact words to him as well. 'I just want to be cared for'... he said this was after they broke up for 6 months, and when they got back together, this is what she said. But... the context that he didn't tell me at the time, and I worked out afterwards... they broke up because she had an abortion and he abandoned her and ran away to his family because it all felt too much... so they broke up. He always made out that she was this really fragile, vulnerable person with huge anxiety that wanted him to just do the impossible and hold her together. And maybe she is that person. But also... maybe she's not.

But then I found myself saying these exact words to him as well as a few points in our relationship... 'I just want to be cared for'... and so I've taken time to consider what you're saying Jaded, as maybe there's something for me to learn here.

I have a lot on my plate as a single mum with two children, including one child with very high needs and extremely challenging behaviour. I don't have family around, and I also own my own business... I'm stretched... and the times where I felt low or stressed or something big happened... he couldn't be there for me... in fact he created drama if he sensed I wasn't 100% in some way... it made him feel insecure and he would usually create an argument so that whatever unease he was feeling could be brought to the surface. Once I was involved in a car crash with my son in the car too... it was minor but I was shaken up and bruised... I just wanted to go home and sleep.. but when I called him and told him what happened, he started an argument about something really odd... I tried to diffuse and validate how he felt... but said I wasn't able to agree to what he was asking me to do... I asked if we could talk about it another day, but he ended up coming around to my place not long after and literally pushed and pressed me on the matter for more than two hours... I was so exhausted I could barely walk... and eventually I shut the conversation down and said I couldn't do it any longer and needed to sleep... and crawled into bed with no dinner and feeling like absolute crap after that really intense discussion...  this is a situation I just wanted to be cared for.

I think where I'm coming from is that I do actually want to be with a man who is able to be in his masculine, and make decisions and show leadership, make me feel safe and protected... and I do want someone to give me a hug at the end of a difficult day... or make me a cup of tea... or ask if I need anything... to me, that's being cared for. Caring for people comes easy to me - I love being there for the people I love... but I do want it back. So I might say those words too, but in the context of it being a reciprocial thing...

[seekingtheway]

Third, I want to recognize that I have grown a lot and gained skills and have a softness to me that will one day make me a good partner to someone (and which already make me a good friend). I feel like after interacting with him, and having him dismiss me, my belief in myself was affected (which I don`t like!). It made me feel like if only I was a different way (more like his ex, less anxious, more firm, more self-assured) then maybe he`d recognize me. Even if it was true, why would I want to change myself for a relationship? If someone wants to be with someone who has blue hair, cool, I don`t have blue hair but that doesn`t take away from my value. I am soft and caring, doting and maternal, I am working on myself and I don`t need anyone`s approval.

I'm glad you can recognize all of your growth and appreciate that you've clearly got some wonderful qualities for a good healthy relationship. It sounds like a g

Can you imagine if you found a relationship with someone who also likes to give and support? And sees and appreciates what you give, rather than expecting you to empty your reserves to keep him propped up?

I struggled for a long time about the morals of not wanting to be with a partner with BPD. And after wrestling with this for ages I thought that actually I wouldn't 'not' be with someone just because they have BPD. If they were aware of their problems and they were put on the table and we were able to communicate honestly about them, and we had some strategies to deal with it, and I could trust them to not lie and cheat and there was a high level of commitment, I thought I could probably be 'that person' who could handle all of the volatility and emotional dysregulation and insecurity. I wouldn't turn my back on that person and I'd give what they needed. Because everyone deserves love, and it's not fair that the people who had childhood trauma end up being the people who can't have healthy love and just experience abandonment and loss their whole lives... it's just not fair. I do still feel angry at this injustice...

But I think this is my co-dependent mind talking, thinking that somehow I could have been what my ex needed because I think in practice, I'd go like a shooting star - start out strong but burn out pretty quickly... I think part of this process for me has been the need to honour who I am. And I do get stressed and tired when I've got too much on my plate and I sometimes go quiet or cry with frustration. I do feel anxiety when someone pushes me away and distances themselves from me without saying why, and I am sensitive to people being rude or aggressive to me... that's just who I am and I don't think those things are going to change or need to change? I think I do actually need a strong partner, someone who is pretty confident and has a decent level of emotional intelligence. Mainly because I have a family situation that means whoever comes is going to need resilience and the ability to work through a lot of crap... but also because I'm ready for a mature relationship with someone who is available for true intimacy. I really want to experience that.

I wonder what it would feel like to flip the focus onto you and what you want and need from a partner?

[seekingtheway]

Sorry for all the typos and missed words, I should really do a quick edit before I hit post!!!