Marriage therapy

[findthewayhome]

We have now been to a few sessions.

The couples therapist told me in a separate session I am in an abusive and toxic relationship, my wife projections onto me and clearly is in psychosis as in front of the therapist denies saying things she has said, and accused me of saying things I haven't in that same session. SO the therapist had to correct her multiple times.

The fact my wife does this in front of a 3rd party seems to prove she doesn't know she is doing it, and as the therapist says she is detached from reality. The therapist also said she doesn't know how I am still sane, after so many years of this.

Obviously I am living with someone else's reality which isn't the same as most neurotypical peoples which has in effect meant I have been quite badly abused. This is all very validating but makes me feel very sad. My wife came into this saying she didn't have much hope for the relationship, but now she is saying we should be going to another therapist as she thinks another one could help us fix the marriage, as this one is accepting divorce as an option too easily... She wants to fix it.  Why is it even though I am told this by a professional and it confirms my worst fears, I still feel anxious and doubt myself is it really that bad? etc.

 I asked the therapist and she said "it's the cycle of abuse", and expected. Even now being told this logically, replaying recordings where she denies, and asserts untrue things, thinking of the horrible things she has said, the names I have been called, when she looks at me all sad and wants to fix it and tells me I am not trying hard enough my heart breaks...

I know BPDs cause so much pain to people, but seeing that she doesn't really know what she is doing fills me with compassion and sorrow. Nearly enough to make me want to stay. But I know she cannot change, the physical and emotional neglect has been too great for me to stay. I am also terrified in what happens when I finally tell her it is over. She will not take it well. She has recently accused me of many different types of abuse financial, being a narcissist etc, gas lighting her ,never having enjoyed sex with me etc etc. I think it may escalate...The therapist thinks my wife has a serious diagnosis. Potentially BPD with some other things mixed in.

How do I push this over the edge? I know divorce has to come, I just keep backing down in my head, and telling myself its not that bad, even though I know logically it is and I must start the process.

[ForeverDad]

Even though the marriage has no chance of survival, you can still encourage your spouse to begin individual therapy.  This is you being "fair".  However, that's unlikely to succeed since there would no outside reality enforcers (you or the marriage therapist) to give the individual therapist the other side of each story.

That said, we here got into our predicaments as deep and as long as we did because... yes, we were "too fair" and too accommodating.  In normal relationships fairness is a wonderful quality.  In a BPD relationship that sense of fairness too often sabotages us.  So always ask yourself whenever a decision or action needs to be made, "Am I being too fair or might I be jeopardizing myself or my options?"

Of course, we would never be nasty or the least bit threatening.  Since ending a relationship often means we head to domestic court, always behave as though the judge were looking over your shoulder.  Don't worry overmuch, courts literally don't care how nice you are or aren't, you won't earn any credits, just don't be aggressive or threatening.

[findthewayhome]

Thanks she does already have her own therapist, as you said though when they only see one side of the story it's hard. I guess the couples therapist saw her behavior quickly as she can't help her behavior around me, and when I am making fair and reasonable statements and she is eye rolling and being aggressive, and denying saying hurtful things she said Infront of the therapist it becomes clear .

Interesting what you said, I was told by my mother when younger what a good sense of fairness I always had. Need to watch out for that. Still terrified. Still feel I need to listen to my wife telling me to try harder and we made vows. She has a way of pressuring me into not doing things...

[findthewayhome]

FOG summarizes it beautifully. I feel so fearful, obligated and most of all guilty and selfish for wanting out.

[jaded7]

We have now been to a few sessions.

The couples therapist told me in a separate session I am in an abusive and toxic relationship, my wife projections onto me and clearly is in psychosis as in front of the therapist denies saying things she has said, and accused me of saying things I haven't in that same session. SO the therapist had to correct her multiple times.

The fact my wife does this in front of a 3rd party seems to prove she doesn't know she is doing it, and as the therapist says she is detached from reality. The therapist also said she doesn't know how I am still sane, after so many years of this.

Obviously I am living with someone else's reality which isn't the same as most neurotypical peoples which has in effect meant I have been quite badly abused. This is all very validating but makes me feel very sad. My wife came into this saying she didn't have much hope for the relationship, but now she is saying we should be going to another therapist as she thinks another one could help us fix the marriage, as this one is accepting divorce as an option too easily... She wants to fix it.  Why is it even though I am told this by a professional and it confirms my worst fears, I still feel anxious and doubt myself is it really that bad? etc.

 I asked the therapist and she said "it's the cycle of abuse", and expected. Even now being told this logically, replaying recordings where she denies, and asserts untrue things, thinking of the horrible things she has said, the names I have been called, when she looks at me all sad and wants to fix it and tells me I am not trying hard enough my heart breaks...

I know BPDs cause so much pain to people, but seeing that she doesn't really know what she is doing fills me with compassion and sorrow. Nearly enough to make me want to stay. But I know she cannot change, the physical and emotional neglect has been too great for me to stay. I am also terrified in what happens when I finally tell her it is over. She will not take it well. She has recently accused me of many different types of abuse financial, being a narcissist etc, gas lighting her ,never having enjoyed sex with me etc etc. I think it may escalate...The therapist thinks my wife has a serious diagnosis. Potentially BPD with some other things mixed in.

How do I push this over the edge? I know divorce has to come, I just keep backing down in my head, and telling myself its not that bad, even though I know logically it is and I must start the process.

You are lucky in one respect, that your marriage therapist saw this behavior, and saw it clearly for what it was. And even labelled it to you, for you. So you are not left wondering the classic things we all wonder about: is this all my fault, did I really hear her say what I thought she said, did I not say that to her? All that kind of thing.

Many of us-myself included- look for that confirmation from others that this was abuse, that the person is acting poorly, because we doubt ourselves.

But yes, the FOG, which is separate from the crazy-making feeling of being gaslighted/lied to, blamed, etc. And the FOG is real, as you are experiencing. As you note, you feel guilty and selfish and obligated to her, which likely is from her blaming you for the upsets in the relationship and you doubting yourself.

So even though you may have lessened cognitive dissonance or crazy-making thinking, you still have the FOG which is really powerful in people who tend to get into relationships with BPD partners. Count me in for that too.

Good luck to you and looking forward to reading about your progress.

[findthewayhome]

Thanks Jaded. Yes I guess lucky in some respect. But I have to be honest the cognitive dissonance is still there! I know I have to do it and moving towards radical acceptance as I have seen mentioned here. But not quite there yet. Terrified of how she will react I will immediately be seen as the one doing it to her. ..

[kells76]

I know I have to do it and moving towards radical acceptance as I have seen mentioned here. But not quite there yet. Terrified of how she will react I will immediately be seen as the one doing it to her. ..

If I'm reading you correctly, you're talking about initiating/announcing divorce? Is that right?

Remind me of how many kids you have and how old they are?

My guess is that living in that pre-divorce space, especially when you are the one contemplating taking the first step, must be beyond uncomfortable. It will be important not to let your discomfort drive the process here. Being thoughtful and deliberate now, versus trying to rush the process to get it done and end the feelings, can be important for safeguarding your place in your kids' lives.

It's good to hear you're in individual therapy. Has your T given you any feedback or perspective on the divorce process?

[findthewayhome]

Thanks Kells. I am riddled with uneasy feelings... Second guessing. We have discussed it in marriage therapy. We both agreed this isn't the relationship we really want. Or probably ever has been. My wife was saying things like maybe we should try to separate for a while first. I said I wasn't keen on that, I believe that would really confuse and hurt the children and also is just an easy way of not saying divorce. But we agreed we wanted to stay friends for their sake and for parenting. She seemed to relax more when she heard that I wasn't just going to up sticks and leave. So we are taking it one session at a time, nobody filing. A mediator was even discussed. The therapist said she could help with this. It all felt a bit too reasonable to what I was preparing for... However it doesn't mean it will stay that way. I am committed to remaining calm and show that I care, and I am not just going to abandon her. (Like her parents did and really hurt here). Infact that is the main reason she wasn't wanting to divorce due to how they handled it..

Her main fears were a bit alarming, she was more focused on how I would be fine, and she would struggle, I would have money, she wouldn't. I would have a nice house, she wouldn't. It felt more competitive than actual concerns about missing me, or anything like that. Also how she would be all alone, and I have so much support etc etc. The therapist really perked her ears up and asked lots of questions when she started sharing the victim/ hard done by stuff and how my wife didn't think it would effect me.

But anyway there is hope there that this can be attempted peacefully with lots of professional support. I still feel so guilt torn, taking my kids out of their house, uprooting their lives. Keep feeling selfish and guilty and anxious. But the facts are there therapist said herself its a toxic situation, I am being abused, there is no intimacy, and neither of us feel it is the relationship we want or need. So I guess burying my head in the sand and wishing it was isnt going to change anything

[findthewayhome]

Spoke too soon. Tonight there was raging about being everyone's slave and then being "discarded"..... Then she went to lie down as needed some space while I sorted kids meals and bath time and tidied the days mess I didn't cause after a crap week of work. Is there no awareness?

[zondolit]

findthewayhome,

It took me quite a while to get from the intellectual realization that I needed to divorce to coming to accept this in a deeper way in my heart and gut and soul. This process cannot be rushed.

Nor can you divorce because your therapist thinks you should, even if you agree! Sometimes I felt I went from listening to whatever my husband said to whatever the therapist said. It's still a process to think for myself, to balance listening to others with knowing when to discard outside advice--but so, so much easier now that I'm not living with an unhealthy, abusive person.

Even once I really knew I had to leave the marriage, initiating the divorce and telling the children was excruciating. Feelings of guilt and fear are normal.

From this side, I can say the divorce, while a huge change and challenge, has helped my children. Now they are in a safe, stable, loving environment where they can be children for half the time. There was something honest about the divorce, too, that helped the children.

[ForeverDad]

I am reminded of a question posed in an older thread.

Can you sit down and ask yourself, "Can I just accept with my head what needs to be done now, and later my heart can catch up?"