The More Aware I am around Abusive People, the More I want to Escape

[zachira]

Recently I was in a meeting in which many of the people are snobby, arrogant, narcissistic, superficial, critical, and abusive. I have gone to these meetings for many years due to business obligations. Before I knew anything about BPD, NPD, emotional abuse, etc., I would attend these meetings and not be bothered in the least. Now it is like my body and mind are telling me to get the hell out of there, and my overwhelming emotional responses seem to increase the more meetings I have to attend. It is like my body and mind are telling me I can't do these meetings anymore. It makes me think of so many members on this site who are in abusive situations which they can't just walk away from right now.

[Notwendy]

Interesting- I have been on some "boards" and also have had several work related meetings. Some I don't mind at all but some- not at all. I didn't think to consider the personalities of the others in attendance so maybe that's an aspect of it.

[Tangled mangled]

I have to work with professionals and clients who are highly narcissistic and have pwbpd too.

I have learned to shut down and not participate when surrounded. Essentially, a grey rock, usually focus my energy on appearing distant, with no emotional reactions. It’s exhausting, on occasions I even request meetings to be remote where possible. Gives me more control over the situation.

[zachira]

Notwendy,
Did you mean to say that you are fine in some of these meetings and other meetings don't feel so comfortable?

[zachira]

Tangled mangled,
I wish I did not have so many financial and legal interests with this group which require me to stand up for my interests. I am glad you are able to distance yourself from disordered people you have to do meetings with.

I have a long road ahead of me to distance myself from these long standing relationships. I am heartbroken that the only way to distance myself forever from these relationships may be for me to die. If I were to take the long road of cutting financial and legal ties with this group, it would be extremely expensive and I might end up broke in addition to all the emotional turmoil that it would involve. I ended most of my financial and legal ties to my sister with NPD; it was heartbreaking, took many years, and the legal expenses were horrendous. These people are not close family members so that does help though they do have many ties to many of my disordered family members.

I do have some friends in this community where I have to attend these challenging meetings. The difference is that my friends do not like these people that I have these challenging legal and financial ties to. I am very proud of the fact that my friends have decided this from their own experiences with these people not through a smear campaign launched by me. This group hates it when I disagree with them, no matter how tactful I try to be and how often I thank them for contributions that they make or show that I care about sad things that happen to them like deaths in their family. It so different with my friends. I was with one last night, and we discussed how we disagree on so many things, especially politics, yet we enjoy the company of each other. I like to have friendships in which we help each other grow as people, we respect that we are two separate people, have many shared interests, and have many lively challenging discussions that few people are able to have these days without getting torn to shreds.

I feel grateful for the few genuine friends that I do have. I have some work to do on being more detached from being disliked by this group, which is what happened with most of the members of my large extended family who made me a scapegoat since birth. I think this group needs a scapegoat and the people in it need to feel superior to others to feel good about themselves.

I think what hurts the most is being told by different people that everybody dislikes me in the group. I happen to know that there are a few people who actually like me. I seem to be a real threat to some people as I am quite naturally a very authentic person and have a hard time being superficial.

[Notwendy]

Notwendy,
Did you mean to say that you are fine in some of these meetings and other meetings don't feel so comfortable?

Yes, sorry if this wasn't clear. Staff meetings with my immediate co-workers are fine. But some other meetings can feel uncomfortable.

[zachira]

Notwendy,
Once we become more aware of how disordered some of our family members are, we develop a radar for when we are around disordered people. Certainly this what was likely happening in the meetings in which you were not feeling so comfortable.

[Notwendy]

Yes, I think I have been sensitive to being around difficult people. I just learned to tolerate it from my BPD mother because of that relationship and my family dynamics.

If I only knew her from attending a work meeting- even if it didn't feel comfortable, the relationship would be different. I could act professionally and also stay at an emotional distance which would be normal in that situation.

What feels different is to act this way with my own mother but in a way, it works better if I do keep an emotional distance.

[zachira]

Notwendy,
We are all a work in progress in knowing when we are safe and can keep our emotional distance. The hard part is when we cannot walk away from people and situations which mean a great deal to us.

The meeting was very emotionally charged for me because I fought hard to insist that the many years of abuse and intimidation of people in the meeting end and we develop more respectful ways of participating in the meeting, including making it easier for people to feel comfortable in sharing their points of view. A few weeks before the meeting, I had several communications with the person in charge of planning and running the meeting who is new and he at one point said he was going to bar me from attending the meeting. He also sent me an email implying that I have NPD which is projection on his part. As the meeting progressed and became extremely emotionally charged for me, I found myself talking over people, though I did it less than in past meetings. (My mother with BPD talked over people and dominated conversations. I am working hard to change these learned behaviors and mostly am doing better with this, except when I am in highly emotionally charged situations.) It was the first meeting in which all the members participated and the topics discussed were extremely charged. I was not happy with how some people showed their true colors, the more narcissistic ones, yet I feel better that the adversity was on the table instead of all the passive aggressive behaviors that went on for years and the open abuse of members in the meetings.

I feel that I am more and more living my life in line with my values these days instead of being the helpless victim chosen since birth to be one of the scapegoats of the disordered family members from both my FOO and large extended family. I am supposed to go along with being abused and blamed for all kinds of things that are not my fault at all. Several years ago, this group chose me as one of their scapegoats and I will not stand for it. It does not help that my sister with NPD smeared me to them for years and continues to do so. I could not understand why people from this group talked down to me when they did not even know me and had not seen me for a long time when I was unaware of my sister's ongoing smear campaign. There are a lot of new members in the group and I am working on having a more mutually respectful relationship with all of them. Some of the worst members have exited the group as it has become clear that they are not going to get away with behaving so badly (though some of the worst bullies are still very much involved and there are new members in the group who are bullies).
 
Getting treated decently by others starts with respecting myself first, being comfortable in my own shoes, having the right kind of boundaries in place, instead of communicating that I don't feel worthy of being treated with respect and kindness.

[Notwendy]

Sounds like you have a personal stake in these meetings- the relationships have an emotional connection- it also feels like a "gang up"- saying things like "nobody likes you" and trying to exclude you.

I haven't attended meetings that have as much of a personal connection to me. They have been work and board meetings with less personal connections.

I recall an experience with something similar. I had a group of friends and one person in the group somehow turned the group "against me". It felt hurtful. I later learned this person did similar things with other people. I suspect she probably had a personality disorder. She since moved out of town. I still run into the other people from that group and while I am friendly and cordial, I don't have an emotional connection to them.

It seems that what ties you to your group is finances. This is business then, nothing else. You can participate in order to protect your own interests but I hope at some point, you can disconnect emotionally from them. They also have their interests too- I assume if they can get you to back out- it's more for them. It's hard to feel disliked but perhaps it's not worth trying to get everyone to act civil- if they can't be. You have the right to be at the meetings if they involve your interests too.

[zachira]

Notwendy,
You have described exactly how I am experiencing this group and what I need to do to make it less emotionally overwhelming for me when I have to interact with these people. Thank you.
 
Your experience with having a flying monkey turn the group against you, is exactly what bothers me the most in the group I am dealing with. It has taken me time to figure out who the worst flying monkeys are. One of them would make remarks about somebody liking me. Then one day, she walked up to me and said I am going to replace you as the favorite of a certain person. And indeed she has turned this person into one of my adversaries. Another one came up to me and told me who doesn't like me, some of whom do, then demanded to know who does like me. I assume this was to find out how to turn others against me. Being in control through narcissistic abuse is a dynamic that strongly defines this group.

Your detaching from the group that turned against you is what I need to do with the group I am interacting with. I am gradually detaching from my FOO and large extended family which is an arduous painful process. This group is very much connected to my family and still interacts with them. I have some more work to do on detaching from disordered people who need scapegoats to feel better about themselves and who like to talk about being superior to other people. 

I realize I am far from alone in all of this. So many members on this site have people, mostly family members, that they have to interact with who are disordered and deliberately cruel. We all get triggered at times when we are stuck in relationships with disordered people with whom we are not able to go no contact. The detachment is an ongoing process as the disordered people seem to need others to project their distress on, and they choose certain people to target, to treat badly on purpose. It is nearly impossible to predict when and what the next round of cruelty will be like. It is like they enjoy hurting and upsetting others so they don't have to face how  badly they really feel inside.

Thank you so much for your insights and sharing your experiences.

[Notwendy]

When this group thing happened, I didn't realize it. People who I assumed were my friends suddenly were getting together without me. I asked one of them what was going on and she told me that this person ( the one with the suspected PD) doesn't like you, so at least she was honest. I was upset and sad over this and didn't understand  what was going on. I found out later that this person had done similar things to other people. She moved out of town but by then, friendships were ruined. It was a group of three women. The remaining two are still close friends. I am cordial when around them but keep a distance from them.

I have felt a bit envious of friends who have "girl groups" that they do things with but also now wonder how much of these involve drama that I am not interested in. I prefer to get together one on one with people or a group like neighbors if we get together on a back porch or doing something like a work out group. But some of my friends would do "girls night out" and things like that and I just didn't feel a fit with this situation.

After the situation with this group of women, I got busy with kids and doing things related to school and their activities. Admittedly, I didn't make the effort to socialize as much. I had a friend at work who I thought we were good friends but she left for another job and just cut off everyone related to the old job, including me. That felt hurtful but I don't think it was personal but about her not wanting memories of a job she didn't like. Still, I don't understand just discarding friends like that.

[zachira]

Notwendy,
Human beings are wired to live in groups of around 40 people. People meet around an average of 10,000 people in their lifetime. Most of us have two sides to us: the side we present with people we feel safe with and our public persona. The name of the game is to really see people for who they really are and not what we would like them to be. Charisma and targeting some people for mistreatment are two big red flags. I have a disordered relative who was so charming and generous, yet she ruthlessly abused her child and one of her nephews. This relative has been given some amazing community honors in her lifetime and after her death. I actually still like the woman in some ways because her charm was so intoxicating.

The people we do not like so much in the beginning because they are too authentic can sometimes turn out to be the best people. I do not consider a person a friend until I see how we each handle disagreements and having to say no to each other at times. I consider people to be friends who are mutually interested in bringing the best out in each other, and truly are committed to life time learning including being willing to admit to making mistakes with other people and being able to genuinely apologize.

I hear you when you say you prefer one on one contact with friends or spending time with groups like your neighbors. I am like that too now. Perhaps this is part of becoming people in our own right and wanting more genuine contact with others. I do think that flying monkeys have lots of challenges in differentiating, being able to see themselves as separate people from others and owning the feelings that are their own.
 
 

[Mommydoc]

Hi Zachira.  I took a break from this board as it is what I needed for healing, but remain grateful for the support you and others have provided in my journey.  Though it can be painful and challenging to act on, I think the heightened awareness we develop as we explore our role in dysfunctional family relationships, can help us pick up things that others who don’t have our shared experience don’t see.   In the long run that can be beneficial if we approach it with self compassion and take actions to protect ourselves appropriately.  Over the last year, I started to pick up on BPD tendencies in a woman who was taking care of our second home and living in our guest house. My husband couldn’t see it at all, and marginalized my concerns repeatedly; there was a point, where I really wondered if I was just projecting my experiences with my sister and had become overly distrustful.   Unfortunately, her behaviors worsened and it all became very obvious to others, and finally when some close friends pointed it out, my husband, realized my intuitions were right on.   My learning is that I need to trust my intuitions and sensing, and not expect others, who don’t share my lived experience to see what I see.  When we trust our intuition, and take proactive steps to distance or protect ourselves, it is a path to emotional freedom.   In our case, there was a lot of drama, that could have possibly been partially avoided, if I had been more assertive with my husband, and we had been more proactive.   It sounds like you are not ready to disconnect with this group, but I am hoping you can explore, what the benefits versus the costs of remaining engaged are.  Are there ways to achieve those benefits, and mitigating the downsides?  Do you have a trusted proxy who could attend and represent your views?   Are you able to attend in a more disengaged, neutral or grey rock way?   I have been doing a lot of self reflection, since my mom died and going NC with my sister. We have a finite amount of time on earth, and each of makes choices every day on how and where to spend our physical and emotional energy.   I recognize how much energy was dedicated to managing my relationship with my sister, and am so grateful to be able to redirect my energy to more positive things in my life now.  I have a much lower tolerance now for spending time with people who are insincere, unkind or toxic.   As you said they are often very charming and hard to spot, but I am beginning to realize that it may be that our “superpower” as family members of pwBPD is the ability to see those tendencies more clearly or quickly than others.  What if we could  leverage that super power to create more positivity in our lives?

[Notwendy]

It's good to see you Mommydoc!

One consideration that has helped me is to realize that the skills we gain when dealing with a pwBPD are our skills and they help us in other situations and relationships- such as this one- were we have "radar" around disordered people.

I think sometimes people perceive that learning these skills as doing this for the pwBPD. It may feel unfair- the other person has the disorder- why do we have to do this work? But the work is actually for us- we keep the skills and knowlege we work at.

It helps me to know that sharing the information I learned might help someone else on this board. It also helps me to share, ask for advice/support and share the "company" of others who also "get it".

These disorders are on a spectrum so while my BPD mother may be one of the more challenging people I have interacted with, it's helped me to work with other situations such as at work or other people I may interact with.

There's a time and place for everything. If there's grief, or a recent disolution of a relationship, or an encounter with someone- this could be a time to regroup, self care.

[zachira]

Mommydoc,
So good to hear from you and glad you are doing well. I love your talking about having a superpower to see things others can't because of having disordered family members. I just got the minutes from this terrible meeting. The distortions, things left out, and the insinuations were awful. I am getting along better with people these days as I try to meet them at their level while not enabling abusive behaviors. At the same time, I have to pick my battles. I will leave the deliberate inaccuracies of the minutes for others to comment on, because if I do so, it will not be worth it. I have to choose when it makes sense to speak up and when it doesn't. Right now I am not able to exit this group, though I am leaving the possibility open for the future.

I have one relative with whom I have had some disagreements about our roles in the large extended family. I have called her out knowing she is capable of doing better, and she has been open to listening while being clear about what her boundaries are. My superpowers now give me better ideas about who to include in my inner circle and what kind of people to distance myself from.