Re: Well looks like divorce is finally happening Pt. 3

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Link back to Pt. 2 can be found here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=357262.0

Well I have an update

She now represents herself, she's too poor to afford an attorney at 130k a year.  I think she is also drowning financially.

She filed a restraining order against all of my accounts asking for me to stop spending and for me to give her access.  She did not notify my attorney like she was supposed to, judge granted me not spending but did not grant her access.  Issues, these accounts are my separate property and already traced.  Hearing for June 5.

My kids came home Wednesday and told me mommy cries every day.  I called her to say I was worried.   She went nuts on the phone.  Like nuts I haven't heard in 10 years, I'm psychotic evil destroying her, kids hate me, yelling something slams phone disconnects.

She emails my attorney 20 minutes later.  She gave me the kids, right to designate everything,  the house,  all furnishings and cars, all she wants is 100k from my IRA.    My attorney wrote it up within a few hours yesterday and she instantly singed.   Asking me the quickest way to get the money.

She asked for every other weekend, sat and Sunday only starting in August and no child support.  Told me to tell the kids she loves them and she will see them in August.   Said she has to work to crawl out of her financial hole that is my fault.  So from 50/50 to ill see you in August 2 days out of every 14.  Wtf.

Bittersweet.  The kids needed stability, but she was not a horrible mother.  Who can just walk away from their kids like that?

I called her today to let her know she is welcome to come see the kids and I would work with her to see them the next 2 months, I feel like they need their mother in their life. She said no.  Basically, everything she did to me over the last 13 years she said it was me that did it.  I'm dark, I wasn't equal, and she loved me so much but it wasn't enough to pull me out of the darkness.  Is she serious?  She said I would rather pay an attorney 100k than work with her.  Ummm she never tried to work with me, she filed restraining orders multiple, filed to modify every order that didn't go her way, called the cops, called cps.  Work with her?

She said I won and I stole everything from her.  This was her offer.  I'm just so sad.  The kids were crying.  She told me to tell them she has to work so she can't see them until August.  The kids aren't dumb, they know she doesn't work every day.

I have no clue how her mind works.  Blames me for everything fought like hell to destroy me and take the kids.  Cost us most of our wealth.  Then just gives up, walks away from the kids and said it's my fault and abusive?

[mikejones75093]

Link back to Pt. 2 can be found here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=357262.0

Well I have an update

She now represents herself, she's too poor to afford an attorney at 130k a year.  I think she is also drowning financially.

She filed a restraining order against all of my accounts asking for me to stop spending and for me to give her access.  She did not notify my attorney like she was supposed to, judge granted me not spending but did not grant her access.  Issues, these accounts are my separate property and already traced.  Hearing for June 5.

My kids came home Wednesday and told me mommy cries every day.  I called her to say I was worried.   She went nuts on the phone.  Like nuts I haven't heard in 10 years, I'm psychotic evil destroying her, kids hate me, yelling something slams phone disconnects.

She emails my attorney 20 minutes later.  She gave me the kids, right to designate everything,  the house,  all furnishings and cars, all she wants is 100k from my IRA.    My attorney wrote it up within a few hours yesterday and she instantly singed.   Asking me the quickest way to get the money.

She asked for every other weekend, sat and Sunday only starting in August and no child support.  Told me to tell the kids she loves them and she will see them in August.   Said she has to work to crawl out of her financial hole that is my fault.  So from 50/50 to ill see you in August 2 days out of every 14.  Wtf.

Bittersweet.  The kids needed stability, but she was not a horrible mother.  Who can just walk away from their kids like that?

I called her today to let her know she is welcome to come see the kids and I would work with her to see them the next 2 months, I feel like they need their mother in their life. She said no.  Basically, everything she did to me over the last 13 years she said it was me that did it.  I'm dark, I wasn't equal, and she loved me so much but it wasn't enough to pull me out of the darkness.  Is she serious?  She said I would rather pay an attorney 100k than work with her.  Ummm she never tried to work with me, she filed restraining orders multiple, filed to modify every order that didn't go her way, called the cops, called cps.  Work with her?

She said I won and I stole everything from her.  This was her offer.  I'm just so sad.  The kids were crying.  She told me to tell them she has to work so she can't see them until August.  The kids aren't dumb, they know she doesn't work every day.

I have no clue how her mind works.  Blames me for everything fought like hell to destroy me and take the kids.  Cost us most of our wealth.  Then just gives up, walks away from the kids and said it's my fault and abusive?

[ForeverDad]

It happens sometimes this way.  Not often, but notice how she's blaming you?

Let the kids be assured that you'll help them get through this.  Validate them that divorce is an adult matter and they should not be put in the middle.

Very important... If the money is coming from your retirement account to her, you have to follow the rules of that QDRO process.  I used an online company that were experts on doing this and relatively inexpensive.  Otherwise my lawyer said he'd charge me more and hand me off to a company he used, for even more money.

I used to work as a programmer for a retirement IRA/401k, etc company.  The spouse never sends money directly to the ex-spouse or else there may be tax consequences.  You have to file a DRO (Domestic Relations Order) with the divorce court who authorizes it to proceed.  Once all the details are made, then the plan's administrator reviews (I had a 401k) and Qualifies it as a QDRO and court is notified.  At that point - and only then - the retirement company splits off the said amount from your account in your name into a new account (if one does not already exist there) in ex's name.  Then ex is notified that the money is there and she may request whatever money she wishes from her account.  Last, the court is notified the QDRO is completed.

If it's not ROTH then she has the financial responsibility to include it in her tax filings.

But, you may ask, what if you take the easy path and have your IRA mail her a check in her name directing it to be deposited into her IRA/401k account?  The huge problem is that she'll instead deposit it into her regular accounts and spend it.  Then the tax obligation defaults to... you guessed it, you.  So don't take the shortcut!

That was the process a decade ago.  Stick to the process!  Otherwise you might have to pay the 10% penalty for early withdrawal plus the tax obligation too.

Here's what happened in my case.  This all happened after the final decree since that's when we put the financial settlement in writing.  I filled out the DRO information online, had the online company review it (probably done by a computer program), submitted it to the court/retirement plan for review and approval.  I forget which entity came first.  Once it was reviewed and approved by my plan's administrator the DRO became a QDRO (Qualified DRO) and I submitted that to the court.

What happened next is probably standard in the industry and protected me from tax consequences.  If a check had been written directly out of my retirement account and she didn't put it into her own retirement account, I would have gotten a huge tax/penalty for her failure.  Instead, the plan created an account for my ex and moved that money over to her account.  Then she was notified of HER account, provided access and it was up to her to leave it there or take it as a distribution or loan.  That way EX was responsible for any taxes or penalties for early withdrawal, not me.  To this day I still don't know what she chose to do with it, but I'm fairly sure she drained it quickly.

[EyesUp]

It’s a lot to process, especially for the kids.

Some practical matters to consider…

What’s to prevent her from filing a motion for modification later?  Ask your atty if there’s anything that can be added to make this stick.

Consider refraining from offering her more time or any other  concessions - it can set a precedent later.  This is where you need to consider what you might offer verbally vs email or text.

She’s setup the perfect victim position - don’t be surprised when this gets reframed downstream…

Parenting with anyone with a PD is a lot of work.

Cherish the time you’ve got with your kids.

[mikejones75093]

It happens sometimes this way.  Not often, but notice how she's blaming you?

Let the kids be assured that you'll help them get through this.  Validate them that divorce is an adult matter and they should not be put in the middle.

Very important... If the money is coming from your retirement account to her, you have to follow the rules of that QDRO process.  I used an online company that were experts on doing this and relatively inexpensive.  Otherwise my lawyer said he'd charge me more and hand me off to a company he used, for even more money.

I used to work as a programmer for a retirement IRA/401k, etc company.  The spouse never sends money directly to the ex-spouse or else there may be tax consequences.  You have to file a DRO (Domestic Relations Order) with the divorce court who authorizes it to proceed.  Once all the details are made, then the plan's administrator reviews (I had a 401k) and Qualifies it as a QDRO and court is notified.  At that point - and only then - the retirement company splits off the said amount from your account in your name into a new account (if one does not already exist there) in ex's name.  Then ex is notified that the money is there and she may request whatever money she wishes from her account.  Last, the court is notified the QDRO is completed.

If it's not ROTH then she has the financial responsibility to include it in her tax filings.

But, you may ask, what if you take the easy path and have your IRA mail her a check in her name directing it to be deposited into her IRA/401k account?  The huge problem is that she'll instead deposit it into her regular accounts and spend it.  Then the tax obligation defaults to... you guessed it, you.  So don't take the shortcut!

That was the process a decade ago.  Stick to the process!  Otherwise you might have to pay the 10% penalty for early withdrawal plus the tax obligation too.

I appreciate it.  Working on the qdro now.  She's so broke she left everything behind for a buyout

[mikejones75093]

It’s a lot to process, especially for the kids.

Some practical matters to consider…

What’s to prevent her from filing a motion for modification later?  Ask your atty if there’s anything that can be added to make this stick.

Consider refraining from offering her more time or any other  concessions - it can set a precedent later.  This is where you need to consider what you might offer verbally vs email or text.

She’s setup the perfect victim position - don’t be surprised when this gets reframed downstream…

Parenting with anyone with a PD is a lot of work.

Cherish the time you’ve got with your kids.

I agree.  She filed so many motions against me already I doubt this is the end.  Securing my house and other assets was huge.  Now it will only be over custody.  It's funny how I'm just a normal dad normal guy always looking over my shoulder wondering what I'm doing wrong that she will twist some restraining order against me.

I also accepted no child support from her.  So if she files anything I'm going for child support.

130k a year.  She's broke, can't pay her rent, blamed it all on me.  She doesn't realize once she spends her buyout, she'll be broke again

All she is doing is going out with random guys looking for her next provider.  13 years and looking back, I was a paycheck.  Saved everything and did it right.  First downturn and we were ready, but nope she wanted to blow through all of our money.   I tried to put her on a budget, she said it was abuse and punishment.

[jaded7]

It’s a lot to process, especially for the kids.

Some practical matters to consider…

What’s to prevent her from filing a motion for modification later?  Ask your atty if there’s anything that can be added to make this stick.

Consider refraining from offering her more time or any other  concessions - it can set a precedent later.  This is where you need to consider what you might offer verbally vs email or text.

She’s setup the perfect victim position - don’t be surprised when this gets reframed downstream…

Parenting with anyone with a PD is a lot of work.

Cherish the time you’ve got with your kids.

I have a good friend that is 8 years into dealing with his ex wife with BPD. She messes with the parenting agreement constantly, and sets up situations that she maintains will benefit their daughter, but are really just ways for her to get what she wants. He wants to have a good relationship with her, and wants her to have a good relationship with their daughter, so he 'bites' on whatever new plans she has the the parenting arrangements. This is constant, and constantly shifting explanations.

So it's his concessions to her, that she knows he will do because he's still codependent on her (wanting to get along, wanting her to happy with him) that get him into the mess, again and again. Whenever he tries to say no, all heck breaks loose with text barrages filled with accusations and put downs, ghosting and refusal to respond for days, unilaterally cancelling on her weekends....round and round, for years now.

Based on what I've seen, making concessions or voluntary modifications without notaries and legal work is a very dangerous idea.

[EyesUp]

All she is doing is going out with random guys looking for her next provider.  13 years and looking back, I was a paycheck.  Saved everything and did it right.  First downturn and we were ready, but nope she wanted to blow through all of our money.   I tried to put her on a budget, she said it was abuse and punishment.

Same deal here.

My uBPDxw quit her job and then accused of financial infidelity when she would not agree to a family budget and I didn't accept her ongoing, unconditional spending...  Sometimes when familiar themes appear here, I imagine this is what it's like for producers in Hollywood... great new script, and yet I've seen this one before!

Possibly related... My uBPDxw found a guy 12 years her senior to move in and share expenses and they are engaged.  My kids will have a stepdad about 3 years after we separated.  Not much of a transition because he already lives with them.  For the moment, he seems to add some stability to the equation, for as long as it lasts.  I hope it's a healthy situation for the long term.  I sort of want to buy this guy a beer...

The best thing your ex can do, short of meaningful hard work on herself, is get into a (semi)stable LT relationship and shift all her energy and attention in that direction.

[Notwendy]

All she is doing is going out with random guys looking for her next provider. 

That may be one reason why she let you have the kids. So much easier to find a guy when there aren't kids living at home.....

If she's that unstable, the kids are better off with the arrangement you have as it's more stable.

[mikejones75093]

Same deal here.

My uBPDxw quit her job and then accused of financial infidelity when she would not agree to a family budget and I didn't accept her ongoing, unconditional spending...  Sometimes when familiar themes appear here, I imagine this is what it's like for producers in Hollywood... great new script, and yet I've seen this one before!

Possibly related... My uBPDxw found a guy 12 years her senior to move in and share expenses and they are engaged.  My kids will have a stepdad about 3 years after we separated.  Not much of a transition because he already lives with them.  For the moment, he seems to add some stability to the equation, for as long as it lasts.  I hope it's a healthy situation for the long term.  I sort of want to buy this guy a beer...

The best thing your ex can do, short of meaningful hard work on herself, is get into a (semi)stable LT relationship and shift all her energy and attention in that direction.

I'm not doing any crazy modifications.   It's summer and school is out.  I still think the kids need their mother in their life.  If she asked to pick them up for a day or take them for a couple of days I would not have a problem.  Once school starts I wouldn't do that.  I'm always going to do the right thing.  She basically gave them up.  I won't keep her from them.

[mikejones75093]

Same deal here.

My uBPDxw quit her job and then accused of financial infidelity when she would not agree to a family budget and I didn't accept her ongoing, unconditional spending...  Sometimes when familiar themes appear here, I imagine this is what it's like for producers in Hollywood... great new script, and yet I've seen this one before!

Possibly related... My uBPDxw found a guy 12 years her senior to move in and share expenses and they are engaged.  My kids will have a stepdad about 3 years after we separated.  Not much of a transition because he already lives with them.  For the moment, he seems to add some stability to the equation, for as long as it lasts.  I hope it's a healthy situation for the long term.  I sort of want to buy this guy a beer...

The best thing your ex can do, short of meaningful hard work on herself, is get into a (semi)stable LT relationship and shift all her energy and attention in that direction.

She lives an extreme lifestyle.  130k a year and big time broke.  What guy in his 40s to 50s would get with a woman with 5 kids and pick up a huge tab.  She's beautiful and uses sex to get her way then the sex stops.  A mature guy would see her anger and red flags and walk away.  The kind of person in that age group that stays scares me.  Don't want my kids around.  Her second husband beat her.  My step son confirms he saw it.  I asked why she stayed, she told me she was a single mom with bills, what did you expect me to do?  Crazy

[mikejones75093]

That may be one reason why she let you have the kids. So much easier to find a guy when there aren't kids living at home.....

If she's that unstable, the kids are better off with the arrangement you have as it's more stable.

I agree they are better off in a stable environment.

I just can't believe that for 11 years and all these kids, everyone called her supermom.  She was a stay at home mom all day long.  Straight said by.  I'll start my possession in August.  Even then it's 2 days out of every 14.  She will take them out spoil them and send them home.  Not active in school, activities, or providing clothes.  She gets to come around have fun and leave.  I would never have left my kids for 2 months then taken that terrible custody schedule.  I'm mystified.

[ForeverDad]

Also, many of our disordered did jump into new relationships or overspent or made predictably bad financial decisions.  Don't get angry, don't argue when you know the other won't listen.  They're adults.  Let it go.  While they are focused (or distracted) on 'whatever', you focus on healthy goals for yourself and your parenting.

Yes, we do not block the other's parenting.  And some reasonableness too is advisable.  But on the other hand we realize our ex-spouses are dysfunctional and we are in the best position as reasonably normal parents to provide balanced parenting.  The risk is that our ex-spouses have perceptions and lives that are in constant flux and if we relax a court order (a type of boundary) then we and the kids too can be swept up into chaos that is hard to undo.

[Turkish]

As sad as it is, take this as a surprising win. At least initially, I'd be wary of "mission creep" with regards to the custody stipulation. Get that signed by a judge before she changes her mind. This time is unknown. Engaging her to encourage more time with the kids will come later. I won't comment upon that now other than to say now is not the time as she's in crisis. Settle everything legally in the meantime. Address co-parenting later when you're all legally protected.

[mikejones75093]

As sad as it is, take this as a surprising win. At least initially, I'd be wary of "mission creep" with regards to the custody stipulation. Get that signed by a judge before she changes her mind. This time is unknown. Engaging her to encourage more time with the kids will come later. I won't comment upon that now other than to say now is not the time as she's in crisis. Settle everything legally in the meantime. Address co-parenting later when you're all legally protected.

You're right.  I'm not doing anything until the judge signs.  Hopefully that doesn't take long.  I just don't get the mentality of a woman with this many kids that for the last 10 years was a stay at home mom everything to her kids while I worked can just not see her kids for 2 months then only 2 days every 2 weeks after.

[EyesUp]

You're right.  I'm not doing anything until the judge signs.  Hopefully that doesn't take long.  I just don't get the mentality of a woman with this many kids that for the last 10 years was a stay at home mom everything to her kids while I worked can just not see her kids for 2 months then only 2 days every 2 weeks after.

Speculative comment, but a possible way to make sense of it:

In addition to the points noted above re: crisis, survival, etc...  on an emotional level, perhaps she feels that this is how to "get even" (ie., make you feel what it's like to have primary responsibility for the kids, which... she didn't get enough appreciation for... and has deep resentment for...), or maybe it's as simple as she knows this will bother you...  or, maybe in her distorted world view, she's entitled to some time off and she plans to return (has she back pedaled or flipped on agreements in the past?  get ready), or maybe there's no making sense of it.

The key is not to try to figure her out.  Her life is her problem now.
The is to get super clear with the guy in the mirror.  You don't need to do anything other than be super dad to your kids.  That alone is a science project for most of us.  Get to know all your kids' health providers, teachers, counselors.  Whenever they want to talk, listen!  Just be there for them. 

The situation sucks, but it's also way better than any situation in which your kids are more directly exposed to instability, etc.

You got this.

[mikejones75093]

Speculative comment, but a possible way to make sense of it:

In addition to the points noted above re: crisis, survival, etc...  on an emotional level, perhaps she feels that this is how to "get even" (ie., make you feel what it's like to have primary responsibility for the kids, which... she didn't get enough appreciation for... and has deep resentment for...), or maybe it's as simple as she knows this will bother you...  or, maybe in her distorted world view, she's entitled to some time off and she plans to return (has she back pedaled or flipped on agreements in the past?  get ready), or maybe there's no making sense of it.

The key is not to try to figure her out.  Her life is her problem now.
The is to get super clear with the guy in the mirror.  You don't need to do anything other than be super dad to your kids.  That alone is a science project for most of us.  Get to know all your kids' health providers, teachers, counselors.  Whenever they want to talk, listen!  Just be there for them. 

The situation sucks, but it's also way better than any situation in which your kids are more directly exposed to instability, etc.

You got this.

I appreciate it.  Definitely not ideal but I would never walk away from my kids.  Time off?  Wow, but you could be right.  She always said I didn't appreciate her.  I busted my tail 60 hours a week to advance my family while she watched the kids.  We both had roles, but her telling me she does everything and I do nothing got old. 
Who knows what she's dodoing.  Nothing in my mind could get me to leave my kids like that.  It's not like she's traveling thr world.  She lives 20 minutes away.  She's free now.  Shop clean schedule for 1.  She's 25 again.  Has a degree a good job and no responsibility.

[ForeverDad]

So she didn't work before but now does?  Perhaps that could be one of the factors triggering her changed behavior.

If you try to reason out why she does what she does, you'll never quite understand.  Mental illness, even mild mental illness that does not result in incarceration or institutionalized, does not make 'sense'.  It is illogical though some aspects and patterns can be predicted and categorized in textbooks.

The key is not to try to figure her out.  Her life is her problem now.
The key is to get super clear with the guy in the mirror.  You don't need to do anything other than be super dad to your kids.  That alone is a science project for most of us.  Get to know all your kids' health providers, teachers, counselors.  Whenever they want to talk, listen!  Just be there for them.

She is an adult.  She has consequences, let her face them.

It's also possible that this is her new "comfort zone", having less responsibility for parenting obligations.  She will still change from day to day and week to week.

The kids are just that, minors.  They haven't developed into adults yet so they need protection from poor environments as well as seeing your stability and other good parenting behaviors.  You can't protect them from everything, but the more time they spend with you, the better.  That way, once they've grown they can identify reasonably normal life choices in their adult relationships.

[mikejones75093]

So she didn't work before but now does?  Perhaps that could be one of the factors triggering her changed behavior.

If you try to reason out why she does what she does, you'll never quite understand.  Mental illness, even mild mental illness that does not result in incarceration or institutionalized, does not make 'sense'.  It is illogical though some aspects and patterns can be predicted and categorized in textbooks.

She is an adult.  She has consequences, let her face them.

It's also possible that this is her new "comfort zone", having less responsibility for parenting obligations.  She will still change from day to day and week to week.

The kids are just that, minors.  They haven't developed into adults yet so they need protection from poor environments as well as seeing your stability and other good parenting behaviors.  You can't protect them from everything, but the more time they spend with you, the better.  That way, once they've grown they can identify reasonably normal life choices in their adult relationships.

She will tell you she always worked.  It was about 2 days a month.  She was a stay at home mom that took the kids out every single day to do all kinds of things.  This is where her spending way too much started.  Once the marker turned down for me she offered to go back full time.  She brought in 130, paid 0 bills and drained our savings.  She told me she wasn't doing that.  We went over statements and budgets repeatedly, she acts like that never happened.   She said she doesn't need me, moves out,  high rent utilities cell phone car insurance and goes underwater fast. Not too mention her attorney fees trying to take custody away from me.

I agree, they are her problems.  I'm not going to jump leaps and bounds, but I'd rather be nice and try to do the right thing than be cold.  My kids still need a mother.  The kids are very upset.  My daughter tried to talk to her and she was cold to her too.  Myndaughter looked at me and said she gave up on us.

My daughter is the oldest and we went to run an errand alone tonight.   She said dad I felt bad for you.  You always tried to hug her every day and she pushed you away.  Every day you asked her about her day and she ignored you.  She was always getting mad at you for dumb things.   My ex had a way of making me feel like garbage.  There were times I almost believed her.  I knew my kids were always watching but I didn't know my daughter recognized all of that.  It's sad but it made me feel good to hear someone else say it

What does this new normal with my ex look like?  It's weird.  She put us on our family wizard even though she was the one going off on me.  Now she won't even respond to me.  She keeps it strictly about the kids, anything else she ghosts.  Our therapist said she needs chaos and is always at war.  What's next? I just don't believe she will be all about the kids and shut everything else down.   I made a commitment to quit talking to her unless it's about the kids.   At some point when im not reaching out she'll do something for attention.   I think.

[Notwendy]

I'm not going to jump leaps and bounds, but I'd rather be nice and try to do the right thing than be cold.  My kids still need a mother.  The kids are very upset.  My daughter tried to talk to her and she was cold to her too.  Myndaughter looked at me and said she gave up on us.

My daughter is the oldest and we went to run an errand alone tonight.   She said dad I felt bad for you.  You always tried to hug her every day and she pushed you away.  Every day you asked her about her day and she ignored you.  She was always getting mad at you for dumb things.   My ex had a way of making me feel like garbage.  There were times I almost believed her.  I knew my kids were always watching but I didn't know my daughter recognized all of that.  It's sad but it made me feel good to hear someone else say it

I am not surprised that your D noticed. I did too at a young age - before I understood adult relationships.

BPD affects all relationships. A romantic relationship is unique but that doesn't mean BPD does not affect other relationships in some way.

I agree, kids need a mother- but is their mother the kind of mother they need? We assume certain characteristics to a mother. I think it's important for them to have contact with their mother if she's willing to be in contact with them, and if it's emotionally safe for them. The push /pull pattern exists with children too- as you can see- and also this may not stay like this- your wife may change her feelings but this is a different experience than consistent love.

I agree that you need to be civil in your communcations with your ex, even if she isn't. She is no longer your wife but she is the mother of your children, at least biologically and you are demonstrating respectful communication to your children. But the relationship between them and their mother isn't all your responsibility or theirs either. Most cultures idealize the mother- child relationship and in most situations, it's true. Of course you want this for your child, and they'd wish for it too, but a part of this is also dependent on their mother's capacity to have that kind of relationship. It's hurtful to have a parent turn cold. The kids need an explanation but if you explained, it would be triangulation. I hope you get the kids in counseling so they have a professional and objective adult who they can talk to.

[mikejones75093]

I am not surprised that your D noticed. I did too at a young age - before I understood adult relationships.

BPD affects all relationships. A romantic relationship is unique but that doesn't mean BPD does not affect other relationships in some way.

I agree, kids need a mother- but is their mother the kind of mother they need? We assume certain characteristics to a mother. I think it's important for them to have contact with their mother if she's willing to be in contact with them, and if it's emotionally safe for them. The push /pull pattern exists with children too- as you can see- and also this may not stay like this- your wife may change her feelings but this is a different experience than consistent love.

I agree that you need to be civil in your communcations with your ex, even if she isn't. She is no longer your wife but she is the mother of your children, at least biologically and you are demonstrating respectful communication to your children. But the relationship between them and their mother isn't all your responsibility or theirs either. Most cultures idealize the mother- child relationship and in most situations, it's true. Of course you want this for your child, and they'd wish for it too, but a part of this is also dependent on their mother's capacity to have that kind of relationship. It's hurtful to have a parent turn cold. The kids need an explanation but if you explained, it would be triangulation. I hope you get the kids in counseling so they have a professional and objective adult who they can talk to.

She wasn't a horrible mother.  She had many good qualities.  Her rage and yelling were what concerned me.  That wasn't all the time but seems to be increasing.   She always had them involved in activities, it was her identity for years, however, she actually abandon them this time.  For someone that has a fear of that I don't know how she could do this.

I want to make sure they have a relationship with her and I'm flexible to an extent.  On a school week it probably won't work to switch things up, they need structure.  During the summer when they are more free with no plans,  I don't mind if she wants to pick them up or have a day here or there.  This summer is when she gave them up for a couple months. 

She reached out and said, if I loved her I never would have signed the decree.  This was her offer that I agreed to and she instantly signed it hours before me.  I didn't argue or play into it but wow it's delusional

[dtkm]

What came to me when I read this, is that she probably "knows" that something is off with her, but isn't willing to admit it to anyone.  It is a lot easier to blame others than to look at yourself.  Deep down she is afraid that she will get called out by the courts, CPS, mental health agencies, etc. so its easier to "give up" now, and blame you, than it become official that there is something "wrong" with her. 

[livednlearned]

Do you think she may have met someone?

[ForeverDad]

she actually abandon them this time.  For someone that has a fear of that I don't know how she could do this.

Sometimes we remark, the disordered one may abandon us before we can abandon them.

[mikejones75093]

What came to me when I read this, is that she probably "knows" that something is off with her, but isn't willing to admit it to anyone.  It is a lot easier to blame others than to look at yourself.  Deep down she is afraid that she will get called out by the courts, CPS, mental health agencies, etc. so its easier to "give up" now, and blame you, than it become official that there is something "wrong" with her. 

10 years ago our counselor told me she knows.  I was wondering if she really wanted to go through that evaluation.   She's going so hard at me right now about when will the money hit her account I'm thinking she's all about the.money.   it's all she talks about.

[mikejones75093]

Do you think she may have met someone?

Probably.  Shes.made comments all guys are the same.  She told my.kids her.cop boyfriend wanted to be exclusive so she had to.dump him.  I think she's seeing a lot of people at the same tjme.

[mikejones75093]

Sometimes we remark, the disordered one may abandon us before we can abandon them.

It's just sick to me someone with a fear could do that to their child.  My daughter feels abandon for sure.  She is so hurt.  Their relationship was like friends not mother daughter so my 11 year old at that up feeling older than she should have.  Then bam dumped by her mom.

[Notwendy]

It's just sick to me someone with a fear could do that to their child.  My daughter feels abandon for sure.  She is so hurt.  Their relationship was like friends not mother daughter so my 11 year old at that up feeling older than she should have.  Then bam dumped by her mom.

Being "friends" - not like mother-daughter isn't necessarily a good thing. Making your D a peer can put her in a situation she isn't mature enough for- a form of parentification. Parents have a special role, different from friends.

I understand how this doesn't make sense to you. Unless someone has experienced this kind of thing, they can't imagine it. If you have a mother who is consistent and loving, it's hard to imagine any mother behaving like this.

It's also hard to imagine this when one is in a romantic relationship- you had this love for your wife and saw the best in her. Probably no humans are all good or all bad and surely there were times she was a good mother just like there were good times between the two of you. It also doesn't mean she's a bad person to have a disorder or mental illness- but BPD can affect all relationships.

It may not be possible to know exactly why your wife is detaching from the kids at the moment but this is hurtful to them. Your role is to protect them, give them consistent love, and help them cope with this situation.

[mikejones75093]

Being "friends" - not like mother-daughter isn't necessarily a good thing. Making your D a peer can put her in a situation she isn't mature enough for- a form of parentification. Parents have a special role, different from friends.

I understand how this doesn't make sense to you. Unless someone has experienced this kind of thing, they can't imagine it. If you have a mother who is consistent and loving, it's hard to imagine any mother behaving like this.

It's also hard to imagine this when one is in a romantic relationship- you had this love for your wife and saw the best in her. Probably no humans are all good or all bad and surely there were times she was a good mother just like there were good times between the two of you. It also doesn't mean she's a bad person to have a disorder or mental illness- but BPD can affect all relationships.

It may not be possible to know exactly why your wife is detaching from the kids at the moment but this is hurtful to them. Your role is to protect them, give them consistent love, and help them cope with this situation.

I agree.  She's not always bad.  One week a month it's horrible, one week she's amazing.   I dealt with it for years.  It only got real within the last 18 months when she started spending money like crazy and was putting us toward bankruptcy quick.  She gave up everything for a bailout. 

The money hasn't hit yet so she called me Friday needing 10k.  She couldn't pay her rent or movers.  She makes 130k a year and knew she was moving for a few months.  If course it's my fault she lives above her means.

She's asking me all kinds of financial and insurance questions. Today she asked me to go pick up some furniture and move it for her.  I finally said, I'm not your husband.  I felt bad after I said it. Maybe I should have helped

[Turkish]

Good for you for not helping. I don't think answering financial questions is too much, but be wary. About 6 years ago, my ex asked me to loan her $25k to pay off her credit cards on a payment plan she proposed with a much lower interest rate than the cards. She eats out a lot and takes the kids on vacations (and herself) like she's making $150k/yr while at the time likely not making much more than $60k. The subsidized housing in the bay area helps her, but come on... my ex is also a magical thinker.

Rescuing is enabling. I went through this with my BPD mother for years.

[mikejones75093]

Good for you for not helping. I don't think answering financial questions is too much, but be wary. About 6 years ago, my ex asked me to loan her $25k to pay off her credit cards on a payment plan she proposed with a much lower interest rate than the cards. She eats out a lot and takes the kids on vacations (and herself) like she's making $150k/yr while at the time likely not making much more than $60k. The subsidized housing in the bay area helps her, but come on... my ex is also a magical thinker.

Rescuing is enabling. I went through this with my BPD mother for years.

Is it ever going to stop?  Or will she continue to ask for things? It seems somewhat quiet right now.