Custody / guardian ad litem

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Hello - I separated from my husband in the past year and initially had full custody. Since winter he has had partial custody. He’s not diagnosed but seems to have BPD traits such as splitting, blaming me for a lot, raging at me, and getting overwhelmed by many life situations. He also seems to have emotional reasoning when he’s upset and can be very convinced he’s right in those moments. I spent a lot of time walking on eggshells and when I would try to hold my ground he would escalate.

His behaviors have generally not been directed at our kids but he got to a point where some combination of his mental state, and mixing alcohol and an antidepressant, caused him to pass out almost daily while watching them. That led me to finally separate.

He thinks he is fine and wants 50/50 custody. He has a therapist but it’s the same one he had through the alcohol issues and he didn’t tell her what was going on. He blames me for his issues and minimizes them, which is scary because I am not sure he will get help if they recur.

I am concerned about his stability with the kids. He is still not covering his own expenses and only got a job about 3 months ago, months after separating. Time with the kids has gone ok but he mostly is on screens with them.

It seems like my options are:
- push for a very slow incremental step up plan for parenting time.
- ask for a guardian ad litem to evaluate the situation.
I guess I am hoping this person would identify his pattern of issues and make that more clear and documented. I have a couple legal items that help document issues but they don’t really establish his chronic patterns by themselves, and he states they are isolated incidents.

Has anyone faced this decision and pushed for a GAL? Is there a point? At his worst he verbally abused me in fromt of the kids and neglected them because he was passed out. I don’t know if that’s enough to raise significant concern.

Or maybe it’s worth doing the process just to get current concerns documented in case issues recur?

Thanks for any advice.

[ParentingThruIt]

Hello - I separated from my husband in the past year and initially had full custody. Since winter he has had partial custody. He’s not diagnosed but seems to have BPD traits such as splitting, blaming me for a lot, raging at me, and getting overwhelmed by many life situations. He also seems to have emotional reasoning when he’s upset and can be very convinced he’s right in those moments. I spent a lot of time walking on eggshells and when I would try to hold my ground he would escalate.

His behaviors have generally not been directed at our kids but he got to a point where some combination of his mental state, and mixing alcohol and an antidepressant, caused him to pass out almost daily while watching them. That led me to finally separate.

He thinks he is fine and wants 50/50 custody. He has a therapist but it’s the same one he had through the alcohol issues and he didn’t tell her what was going on. He blames me for his issues and minimizes them, which is scary because I am not sure he will get help if they recur.

I am concerned about his stability with the kids. He is still not covering his own expenses and only got a job about 3 months ago, months after separating. Time with the kids has gone ok but he mostly is on screens with them.

It seems like my options are:
- push for a very slow incremental step up plan for parenting time.
- ask for a guardian ad litem to evaluate the situation.
I guess I am hoping this person would identify his pattern of issues and make that more clear and documented. I have a couple legal items that help document issues but they don’t really establish his chronic patterns by themselves, and he states they are isolated incidents.

Has anyone faced this decision and pushed for a GAL? Is there a point? At his worst he verbally abused me in fromt of the kids and neglected them because he was passed out. I don’t know if that’s enough to raise significant concern.

Or maybe it’s worth doing the process just to get current concerns documented in case issues recur?

Thanks for any advice.

[livednlearned]

Hi ParentingThruit,

His behaviors sound really difficult, not to mention worries about how the kids are managing. How old are they, and what kind of relationship do they have with their dad?

When you mention having full custody, do you mean that the two of you kind of worked it out, or was a temp custody order granted?

Anytime we bring third-party professionals into our situations, it's worth doing what you're doing -- asking good questions and taking stock of what's happening.

My ex was also an alcoholic and abused prescription meds, and had BPD/NPD traits. It's a lot to deal with. I hope you're able to find some time to heal and look after yourself as this divorce plays out.

Do you feel comfortable sharing what kind of legal documentation exists? One DUI can go a long way versus a year of documentation that he passes out while the kids are there, for example.

You're right that family law court kind of works like a witness to your case. So once you start documenting things with the court, that's when the sunlight starts shining.

Do you see any sign that he might relinquish time with the kids? My ex fought for more time in court while giving away his time freely in practice. He ended up with 8 hours of visitation, then fought for 50/50, meanwhile he kept canceling his visits and not asking to make up that time.

When you say GAL, do you mean the volunteer evaluators assigned by family law court? Or someone you would pay to do a thorough investigation?

[ParentingThruIt]

Thanks so much.  I'm afraid of posting details in case he finds this but I guess I should just go ahead.

I got a temporary order to have him removed from the home and got temporary sole custody. During that time I kept contact w the kids by bringing them to public places to meet up w/ him once a week for several hours -- like 4-8 hours, at a museum or the mall, things we would do normally as a family.  He got a daytime DUI 10 days after the order to vacate and a few hours after passing out when I left the kids with him for an hour while I got groceries. after that I only did the public place visits and didn't leave him alone with them.

He has the whole time denied he has a problem or repeatedly said things like I have fixed my brain like a CPU and won't do that anymore.

The substance use has been confusing. He was passing out but I never found tons of bottles, just one week when he drank 3L by himself in 5 days. He is getting assessed for alcohol dependence because of the BAC in his DUI which was quite high. I want to ask the court to keep his time the same until that assessment is concluded.  He passed a drug test in court in the winter and he has passed breathalyzers two days a week when he has the kids during daytime.

He was a stay at home dad for years and can be doting on the kids and is really hanging on to that image of himself and blaming me, or temporary depression etc, for the issues.  He doesn't see the patterns.

He hasn't done any substance program besides a court mandated one from his DUI that seems more informational than like an AA type program. He maintains he's not an alcoholic.  The substances scare me but the underlying mood swings and reality perception scare me more.

The court has been sympathetic to my concerns but the longer his track record looks ok on paper, I am concerned he will get more custody. I can't tell if that will be okay or will be dangerous.  Objectively I'd like him to be assessed by a professional but I'm not sure if that will actually help, e.g. if he will accept help. But maybe it would be good to have the documentation for court either way.

In short I am trying to decide whether to try for a very incremental step-up plan or to involve a GAL from the outset.

[livednlearned]

That's a big feat to accomplish, to have him removed and get sole custody.

And the DUI with such a high BAC, that's not a good look for him.

It sounds like you had an attorney but don't currently have one?

The court has been sympathetic to my concerns but the longer his track record looks ok on paper, I am concerned he will get more custody.

Something I did in my case was to set up tasks that my ex had to accomplish in order to earn trust. I noticed a dynamic in family law court that the judges don't like to make decisions about family matters when there are two adults involved, yet they have to do this day in and day out. So when someone like you shows up as a real grown-up and says, Look I want my kids to have a relationship with their dad and I also have concerns about substance abuse that impacts their safety. I propose that he attends ________ for 30 days at one of the three ________ recommended by _______. These are reputable professionals in good standing with this court. We ask that he begins by day/date and complete by day/date.

That's what we did in my case. My ex unraveled the point where it made sense to also ask for a psychiatric evaluation and anger management classes so he was on the hook for those too.

Because of his contrarian nature and everything else that goes with BPD traits, my ex could not even pick up a phone to make an appointment.

It does not look good to family law court to say you want more time with your kids but aren't willing to put in minimum effort.

It's essentially putting the ball in his court. He cannot prioritize the kids over his drinking and you want to shine light on that.

As for getting a GAL involved, I personally don't hold them in high regard although I know there are some good ones out there. It's not a role that requires much in the way of training and for many people it's a volunteer position. A custody evaluation tends to be more methodical and intensive with more credentialing expected and some professional responsibilities. There have been both good and bad stories for CEs and GALs on these boards over the years. Being very careful how you select them matters and this is a good place to ask people for input on how to do that.

However, I did get a parenting coordinator assigned to our case -- PCs can also go both ways. In my state they had limited judicial authority which I found problematic but there was so much pressure for us to have one I relented. Our PC was a child psychologist who actually trained PCs in our state and turned out to be exceptional. She's the person who helped me see how truly disordered my ex was when she filed a motion to withdraw from our case, saying that my ex was not capable of co-parenting based on communication issues alone.

I wouldn't worry about him saying he's not an alcoholic. They all say that. In my case we had a deposition. When my ex was deposed he said he wasn't an alcoholic because he quits all the time.

They don't even hear what they're saying.

Someone who gets a DUI and says he's not an alcoholic is not a reliable narrator.

A lot will also depend on the age of the kids. If they are still little, having a passed out dad is going to land different than if they're older.

Does your temp order say that he cannot consume alcohol the night before or during visitation?

[ParentingThruIt]

Thanks so much, this is extremely helpful.

I do currently have a lawyer. The kids are elementary age, so not the tiniest. When I saw him passing out daytime on the weekends over the summer and most evenings, I got my son a phone watch and he called me when their dad was too out of it to respond to them and make them dinner.

It seems clear that substances and mental health have been issues but I don't really know the extent of the substances. The current order does prohibit drinking before / during parenting time (24h before) and  he does breathalyzers before and after. He has passed them all. He sounded like he was slurring speech on the phone a couple times over the winter but I dont have anything that demonstrates whether or not he's still using anything.

His budgeting is poor; his financial documents suggest he's spending 200% of his income every month to stay in a luxury temporary apartment rental. I don't know if he has plans to stabilize that.

I like your suggestions to do treatment programs and/or psych evals before getting the kids. I asked for a psych eval in February and they didn't order it, but he has to send me confirmation that he's attending therapy every month. He does struggle with authority figures and would hate doing any of this. But it would give some peace of mind if he would do this before he gets overnights, and it would demonstrate his commitment.

An element that is painful for me is the kids miss him and want more time with him. Overwhelm is definitely an issue for him. So far he has handled time with them safely as far as I can tell (though it's mostly screen time), but he doesn't have the rest of his life sorted yet and he's been out of the house for 9 months. So at a minimum I think it makes sense to increase time very slowly.

In a conference a few weeks ago his atty tried to paint me as an overconcerned mother and my ex has consistently tried to paint me as controlling and narcissistic. So I'm trying to raise concerns and suggestions in as reasonable a way as possible while still not losing the core concern here.

That's awesome that the appointed coordinator was helpful to you. 
I tried to get him to go to a joint therapist to have a neutral place to talk about parenting, but he quit after one session when she validated the decisions I'd made and didn't latch on to his assertion that I'm irrational or a narcissist.

[CC43]

Hi ThruIt,

My sister is going through something similar to you.  She left her husband (uNPD) when he assaulted her during a drunken episode.  Before that, their relationship was very rocky.  He drank heavily, and he had tremendous difficulties with day-to-day functioning (e.g. chronically late, zero help around the house, zero help with newborn triplets, noncompliant with blood pressure medications, etc.).  He used his large size and various weapons to intimidate (getting right up into her face and yelling; getting out guns when he was angry and brandishing them around).  He had amassed an arsenal of weapons, and yet he refused to lock them away when their triplets were born.

The day after the assault, my sister planned her escape.  She managed to get a temporary restraining order, and police came to the house to remove the weapons--the police were stunned with the collection, including semi-automatic weapons and thousands of bullets--and it became local legend.  She ran away with the kids temporarily to get herself together.  Within days, her husband lost his job--he had ongoing performance issues, and we think he was fired, but the way he tells it, he was "let go" because of Covid, which makes no sense because he had a job that could easily be performed from home.  For over a year, he made no effort to contact his young children, or to start the process of having some sort of custody.  Then he filed for divorce--my sister learned of that in family court the day of deliberations to determine next steps.  I suspect that he wanted to have leverage in the divorce proceedings, and so he asked for shared custody.

Well my sister did not want him to have any custody, given his violence, drinking problems and inability to care for a home or the children.  He had zero experience with homemaking and caretaking, though if you talked to him, he made himself sound like Father of the Year, even accusing my sister of assaulting him!  Yet the courts do not like to restrict parental rights, so they awarded him partial custody (Wednesday afternoons, every other weekend and alternating holidays).  The best thing that happened for my sister was the requirement for him to pass breathalyzer test prior to the visits, and not testing was deemed a fail, which is a critical stipulation.

Needless to say, my sister thought the parenting time went poorly.  He would fail to use the breathalyzer, making every excuse known to man.  He skipped around every third visit, making last-minute, lame excuses.  And when he did have the kids, he failed to execute around half of their activities and appointments--making them miss some of their soccer games or dental appointments, for example, by being late, having a medical "emergency" or getting lost.  He couldn't manage to keep foods for them in the house (he only orders take-out), and his house (the former parental home) is absolutely filthy.  So my sister got a GAL involved.

Long story short, even with a GAL, and even with filth in the home, food instability, frequent last-minute skipping of parenting time, exposure to pornography, calling his children horrible names and many other complaints, the courts haven't really intervened.  I suppose that's because it's not illegal to be dirty, go a little hungry, be absent or late.  If my sister had her way, he'd never have the kids overnight, because it's so disruptive to them (given food and sleep deprivation).  He just wants to be a Disney Dad, buying them off with gifts and access to video games.  And since he's still unemployed (almost five years now), he'll eventually run out of money, but he doesn't seem to care.  Since he's been a bachelor, the guy's physical condition has deteriorated even more, and he's barely more functional than a very elderly man, and that includes walking with a cane, poor driving as well as several fender benders.  Those aren't enough to revoke parenting time, either.  I guess only truly criminal activity like DUIs, rape or assault on the child would curtail parenting time.  And yet, even criminals manage to see their kids.

The lessons learned from the GAL experience include that "vignettes" aren't very convincing; the process takes forever; and pwBPD and pwNPD can be very charming and convincing.  I bet you know how they distort the truth with ease, and they seem to actually believe their tales (they are very convincing confabulists).  They can pay someone to spruce up the home, buy some food and put a vase of flowers on the kitchen table during the GAL's home inspection, just as my brother-in-law did.  The behaviors of BPD and NPD are difficult to document and to explain to third parties who don't understand the condition!  But we do know that the raging, the anger, the dysfunction, the emotional abuse, and the pervasiveness and persistence of these behaviors can be very damaging, to adults and to children.

I'm sorry, I just don't know what to tell you, except to insist on a breathalyzer and document, document, document.  And regarding the breathalyzer, a clean test result should be a requirement BEFORE he picks up the kids, and a non-test is deemed a FAIL.  You see, my brother-still-in-law always tries to find some sort of wiggle room, like testing AFTER he picks up the kids (to buy time to attenuate his blood alcohol levels), or alleging that the gizmo is broken, etc.  If alcoholism is a concern like in my sister's situation, you really have to look at the wording.  

[ParentingThruIt]

Thanks so much.  That's incredibly sad.  I'm glad your sister was able to get out safely and set up her own life but I'm sorry the situation is so difficult.

Thanks for sharing. That's a concern of mine with the GAL route, that he'll be on best behavior for the process and the court won't take it seriously. There are a few people that can corroborate what was going on before I kicked him out -- like he slept through school pickup and a neighbor saw him kind of weaving and fall down at pickup -- and the kids still bring up when he passed out and wouldn't respond to them and they had to call me for help. but I don't know what is still going on that would get documented in the process.

His issues seem less blatant than your sister's ex but he's been so consistently inconsistent that I expect that to continue. and I'm not sure how long / if he will get to a sustainable place living on his own.

[ForeverDad]

Was the DUI during his parental time, that is, were they in the vehicle with him?  Essentially that would be endangering the kids and almost surely "actionable".

As a comparison, court won't care so much about you since you're an adult and ought to be able to take care of yourself if he is endangering, but courts really sit up and take notice if the minor kids are put at risk.

About any "step up" proposal... There will almost certainly be relapses to any positive-sounding schedule.  That's real life.  How will it compensate for those times?  In other words, if he has a relapse, then he would "step down" .a prior level a restrictions or even have it put on hold for a professional reassessment.

The problem with typical schedules is that nothing is set in place to address relapses, just positive steps up, not realistic.  When they happen then you would have to go back to court and that could take weeks or months to get it addressed.  By that time the issue might even be moot.  So any such schedule needs to be comprehensive to deal with the "what ifs" or "what whens".

[ParentingThruIt]

Thanks that’s a great point about relapses. He doesn’t think he will relapse so he may agree to it. This is so helpful and practical.

The kids were not in the car for the DUI but it happened within 2 hours of them visiting with him and within 3-4 hours of them being in his sole care (and he passed out while they were with him).

[livednlearned]

How much additional time is he hoping to get?

When I saw him passing out daytime on the weekends over the summer and most evenings, I got my son a phone watch and he called me when their dad was too out of it to respond to them and make them dinner.

I'm just so sorry you have to carry this kind of worry for your kids. I completely understand and really feel for you. I got my son a smart phone for the same reason when he was well before the age I thought was reasonable for him to have one. I also coached him on what to do if he ever felt he needed help. Which neighbor to go to, what 911 calls do and how they work, how asking for help is very brave for a kid to do. I didn't make a big fuss about it, it was more about blending it into moments where it made sense to run through scenarios.

It seems clear that substances and mental health have been issues but I don't really know the extent of the substances. The current order does prohibit drinking before / during parenting time (24h before) and  he does breathalyzers before and after. He has passed them all. He sounded like he was slurring speech on the phone a couple times over the winter but I dont have anything that demonstrates whether or not he's still using anything.

Has it happened often that the kids call to say he's unresponsive?

I like your suggestions to do treatment programs and/or psych evals before getting the kids. I asked for a psych eval in February and they didn't order it, but he has to send me confirmation that he's attending therapy every month. He does struggle with authority figures and would hate doing any of this. But it would give some peace of mind if he would do this before he gets overnights, and it would demonstrate his commitment.

Depending on the courts where you are, they may not want to do a psyche eval unless he's done something to warrant concern. Although there is path to get there, it might mean that you have to agree to one too (custody evaluation).

An element that is painful for me is the kids miss him and want more time with him. Overwhelm is definitely an issue for him. So far he has handled time with them safely as far as I can tell (though it's mostly screen time), but he doesn't have the rest of his life sorted yet and he's been out of the house for 9 months. So at a minimum I think it makes sense to increase time very slowly.

How do you think it would go over if you requested he take parenting classes? I mean, it's not great he's spending all that time on screens but perhaps they would take to heart that there's an overall pattern of instability and overwhelm here, in addition to his problems with alcohol.

In a conference a few weeks ago his atty tried to paint me as an overconcerned mother and my ex has consistently tried to paint me as controlling and narcissistic. So I'm trying to raise concerns and suggestions in as reasonable a way as possible while still not losing the core concern here.

His L is ethically bound to represent his client so it's typically not personal when it comes from the L. Saying you're overconcerned seems like there must not be much to work with if that's the best he can do. And that same L could very easily be representing a mother just like you with concerns identical to yours that he defends as warranted.

There is quite a bit of theater involved in these negotiations too. Ls are often sizing up the opposing party to gauge how well they will present in court, whether you would be a credible witness, for example.

Given it's your kids well-being you're talking about and your ex has dug a hole that is quite serious (based on the courts agreeing to have him removed, temp sole custody, the DUI, etc.) it's not likely that things would go great for him in front of a judge, except that he is trying to paint a picture of a guy trying. It seems you're looking for a way to say, Great, he's trying. I'm trying to assess whether this is a temporary improvement. How about we get more sunlight in here.

"Let's get a third-party professional involved to evaluate things so we can move on from this. We're obviously concerned and should be based on what my client has witnessedd, and while it's a positive to see the kids' father follow court recommendations, our concern is that this will not sustain after the courts look away. We're willing to select 3 court-approved custody evaluators that ex can choose from. He has the capacity to work and contribute to the expense, and similar to how our support is structured, we would expect he contribute x percent."

Of course, you have to be willing to move forward if they say yes.

It puts the ball in ex's court and while it's not cheap, it does assure them that your concerns run deep enough to bring in experts for a full eval.

[ParentingThruIt]

Thank you so much.
That emergency advice is awesome (convo with kids). Their therapist did some safety conversations with them when he got some custody but the 911 part is awesome. I’ll think about what to add.

At least 3 times he couldn’t be roused to make them dinner; several weekend days I saw him passed out most of the day from 10am to dinner time or evening; and multiple times when he was passed out in the evening the kids would cram into a bedroom because they didn’t want him to “wake up and get confused.” That was when he was home. To my knowledge he hasn’t passed out when he’s had custody but it’s only been 11h/week for a few months.

Your language about the assessment sounds awesome and I love the tone it strikes. Thanks so much. I was nervous about being evaluated initially but if it’s the way to get him evaluated also, I’m up for it.

[ParentingThruIt]

Does anyone have any language that's been used for a step down related to mental health / stability?  Substance use seems easier to call out (breathalyzer etc).

[CC43]

Hi there,

I'll chime in again regarding the possibility that your ex is drunk during parenting time.  Like in your situation, my sister's kids are afraid to try to rouse their dad when he is sleeping late into the morning or napping during afternoons, because he's hungover and/or very grumpy.  He was unable to rise in mornings to take the kids out to breakfast, and he very rarely had edible food in the house (not even cereal or bread).  So oftentimes, the kids would go 16 hours or more without food during visitation.

The workaround for this scenario was to impose breathalyzer testing requirements in the mornings of overnight visitation, in addition to prior to pick-up.  In other words, he has to pass the test between 8 and 9 am when he has the kids overnight.  If he can't wake up and take the test, then that's deemed a fail, and my sister can drive to his place and pick the kids up.  That takes some of the pressure off the kids to decide whether they make a call for help or tattle on their dad.

Of course, he HATES this requirement.  He's tried to fight it in court more than once.  But he has an out:  if he doesn't fail a test in five consecutive months, then the testing requirement is eliminated, because he's demonstrated how he can refrain from drinking during visitation.  But if he fails, the clock resets.  It's been over four years, and he hasn't been able to eliminate the requirement for the breathalyzer.  I doubt he's been able to go a full month without a fail.  Thus the notion that there are "relapses" and "step downs" is important to keep in mind, especially in the case of a personality disorder and/or addiction issues.  I think the courts are well acquainted with breathalyzers to protect kids from exposure to drunkenness during visitation.

[livednlearned]

Does anyone have any language that's been used for a step down related to mental health / stability?  Substance use seems easier to call out (breathalyzer etc).

My guess is that you would need some documentation of existing mental health issues and/or request an evaluation to shine light on your concerns.

It can be a bit of a touchy subject in courts because they don't want to be seen stigmatizing mental health. The key is to demonstrate that the mental health issue is having a negative effect on the healthy development and well-being of the kids, and that can be challenging to show, although a custody evaluation with a psyche eval would start the conversation.

In my situation, it was helpful to get the psyche eval but for reasons I didn't anticipate. My ex did his psyche eval with a forensic psychologist who met with him for 4 sessions. She wrote up a report that was roughly 15 pages long and her summary did not conclude in a diagnosis.

The way our courts worked, I was not permitted to see a copy of the report although my attorney could read parts of it to me. However, when we got to court, my ex seemed to think the report was favorable and insisted I get a copy. I'm absolutely stumped why he would agree to that, except that he may have liked the parts that quoted him describing himself in a favorable light. I think the report was probably far more damaging to his case than getting a diagnosis because it very closely detailed his own thoughts on parenting, including whether it was ok to drink in front of minor children (in his mind, yes). He seemed to not understand that an answer like that would be cross-referenced with a track record of substance abuse, including one that led to a psychotic break that he documented through DMs, email, texts, and voicemails all night long while our 11-year-old son was in his house, terrified.

You're trying to tell the opposing L that there is a story here you are certain of, and that you are willing to get others to help tell it so you can put this in front of a judge if it comes to that. They won't like that because they know your version is probably accurate, and they don't want the expense to demonstrate what is probably true (I'm guessing).

Since they are not likely to be ok with the status quo, and you probably don't want the expense and stress of going to court, I wonder if a step-up plan that puts into effect AA, ongoing therapy, etc. and alcohol monitoring the day of visitation, either at the beginning or end, for an extended period of time. Build in check-in points to evaluate how things are working. For example, if he does ok for a month, add x hours. At 3 months, if he's doing ok, add x hours. At 6 months, if he's doing ok, step up. At a year, add an overnight. Cite examples of other plans like it to show you're following other examples with a similar situation. Something I learned the hard way is to also build in consequences for non-compliance. Close that loophole if you can think of a reasonable way to do so. Like if he doesn't pass a breathylyzer, visitation is suspended temporarily until both parties agree or one party files an emergency suspension of visitation.

It means he has to earn what he wants by showing he's genuinely committed over time.

If he has a PD and a substance abuse problem, and can't regulate himself without alcohol much less take care of the kids, he may not get to the overnight, especially if his issues run deep, which it sounds like they do.

It's kind of building in accountability. You know he will struggle to pull himself together. You set the finish line somewhere that is reasonable, that is sensible, that he can work toward, knowing that without very serious investment in his mental health issues, he probably won't reach.

The alternative would be to give him what he wants until he proves he can't handle it, which is what they want, and which is too stressful for the normal-range parent to go through, not to mention the kids.

When talking to them, try to shrug off the shame of him being an alcoholic. "Look, he has a way of coping that he's ok with and I'm not here to judge. Unfortunately, it's not a safe coping mechanism when you're taking care of minors. I don't know what to tell you -- if looking out for the welfare of my kids and making sure they're safe means I'm overly concerned, I guess I'm overly concerned. I want them to know they can count on getting fed when they're with their dad, and feel confident that he can be woken up in the event of an emergency, or feel safe and secure that the person looking out for them is sober."

[ForeverDad]

It can be a bit of a touchy subject in courts because they don't want to be seen stigmatizing mental health. The key is to demonstrate that the mental health issue is having a negative effect on the healthy development and well-being of the kids, and that can be challenging to show, although a custody evaluation with a psyche eval would start the conversation.

The courts assume that as long is it isn't considered actionable abuse against you, then you as an adult can handle yourself.  The courts will focus more attention on protecting the minor children from substantive harm, they have a 'protected' status.  They are not expected to weather excessively negative environments as an adult could.

My marriage was failing two decades ago and we had a preschooler when we entered the court system.  Making a long story short, my stbEx got temp full custody and temp majority time.  The court's parenting investigator - limited by licensing rules - stated that a Custody Evaluation would be needed to resolve the custody impasse since we parents couldn't agree.

Our Custody Evaluator, a child psychologist the court trusted, wrote in the initial summary, "Mother cannot share 'her' child but father can."  So recommendation was that I move up to equal custody and parenting time even though we could not agree.  Though he wanted us to start with Shared Parenting, he wrote that if it failed then I should have custody.

We did that but my possessive ex did not change her disparagement and obstructions so within a couple years I filed for Change of Circumstances.  Unfortunately, my initial hope to simply use the CE's alternate outcome failed because court said the prior report was stale, a legal term for out of date.

Two steps forward and one step back.

Something I learned the hard way is to also build in consequences for non-compliance. Close that loophole if you can think of a reasonable way to do so.

It's kind of building in accountability. You know he will struggle to pull himself together. You set the finish line somewhere that is reasonable, that is sensible, that he can work toward, knowing that without very serious investment in his mental health issues, he probably won't reach.

An alternate word for accountability (about him) is consequences (what happens to him).  Court will be reluctant to initiate consequences but over time the court ought to recognize that one parent has issues while the other parent is proposing practical solutions.

One concept we've learned - to the surprise of newcomers here - is that the court does not try to "fix" the litigants.  It treats them as they are.  Its approach is to make orders (boundaries) for the litigants to follow.  To a large extent that is a perspective and approach we too should have.

[ParentingThruIt]

Thanks everybody.

He already has to breathalyzer before and after but I like the idea of an AM one too.

A struggle is I know he was at least emotionally depending on alcohol to regulate at times but I don’t know for sure if he’s using now. But his refusal to do a program and denial that he is an alcoholic is concerning. Immediately after the DUI he expressed that he intended to be sober.

I agree that it’s better to step up slowly than give him overnights and see if something bad happens. I hope the court will agree.

He started a new med since the DUI and it may be evening things out a bit, but he’s still making irresponsible decisions about money and has cited me as the source of all his problems, therefore he doesn’t need help.

Thank you all so much for sharing and for the concrete options for step up / down. And for the reminder that there are non judgmental ways to approach while still asserting reality.

[ForeverDad]

But his refusal to do a program and denial that he is an alcoholic is concerning.

Denial is not surprising, as are Blaming and Blame Shifting.  Professionals are used to hearing such claims, but if you don't speak up to ensure they get the entire picture and not just his own self-interest then who knows how much weight they will give his claims.

Immediately after the DUI he expressed that he intended to be sober.

Intentions and promises mean little if anything.  His subsequent decisions and actions are all that count.  And not just immediately afterward, but over extended time.

[PeteWitsend]

...
As for getting a GAL involved, I personally don't hold them in high regard although I know there are some good ones out there. It's not a role that requires much in the way of training and for many people it's a volunteer position. A custody evaluation tends to be more methodical and intensive with more credentialing expected and some professional responsibilities. There have been both good and bad stories for CEs and GALs on these boards over the years. Being very careful how you select them matters and this is a good place to ask people for input on how to do that.

However, I did get a parenting coordinator assigned to our case -- PCs can also go both ways. In my state they had limited judicial authority which I found problematic but there was so much pressure for us to have one I relented. Our PC was a child psychologist who actually trained PCs in our state and turned out to be exceptional. She's the person who helped me see how truly disordered my ex was when she filed a motion to withdraw from our case, saying that my ex was not capable of co-parenting based on communication issues alone.

..

This is all good advice.  Family/divorce lawyers aren't typically the best and brightest of the profession to begin with, and GALs are lawyers who couldn't even manage to cut it in family law.

In our case, having a GAL appointed sent my case sideways as she missed appointments and took months to even get visits scheduled, and that wasn't even the worst of it (more below) so if you can do something else, like have a custody evaluation, that might be better use of your money.  And once your case gets delayed, it really takes the wind out of your sails if you've had parenting issues... courts kinda look at it as "Well, you said he's a bad parent but now months have gone by and nobody died, so we don't see any reason to change stuff now."

In my case, I'll add, be VERY WARY of any GALs your partner's attorney puts forth.

I later learned BPDxw's attorney was friends with the GAL she recommended, and that GAL had gotten fired from her previous associate attorney job for never showing up to work.  Of course at the time, I had no idea because my attorney didn't object to the recommendation and said she'd be fine.

Also later learned BPDxw had the GAL over for dinner and drinks at least once, which seemed improper to me because no one informed me of that.

SO... yeah, be very cautious about the GAL you get if you go that route.

[ForeverDad]

I did have a Custody Evaluator during my divorce and later in later years we did need a Guardian ad Litem (GAL).  I was fortunate in both.

My CE was a child psychologist who kept his report quite brief, only a dozen pages and not a book some CEs try to write, charged far less than others charge and kept the sessions to a 4 month schedule.  Too bad my ex, a translator, posed not to know English well enough and forced the CE to waste more money on hiring a translator.
MY GAL was some sort of social worker but her only published work seemed to be as a non-profit defending delinquents in court?  The first time around she gave a lot of attention to giving both parents some wins so neither could claim to have lost - which I felt wasn't quite fair to my son's needs - so she was like court, preferring to make the most minimal improvements possible.  However, when we returned to court for the next issue she was fed up with my ex and when my ex falsely testified the GAL had lied, oh my, my ex was raked over the coals.

So, yes, CEs & GALs must be carefully chosen or they could make or break your case.  One proactive approach mentioned here is to vet the potential CEs, GALs and counselors.  Make a short list who are experienced and respected by the court.  Then when the time is right, have your ex select from your vetted list (presuming there is more than one).  Court will like it since both parents are involved in the selection process.  You will relax knowing the inexperienced, biased and gullible professionals are not in consideration.

[ParentingThruIt]

one more question...

I am trying to establish his concerning behavior in court to inform custody decisions and also to get it documented so if issues persist or get worse in the future, there will be a record.

I am trying to be honest and document things of concern but also feel extremely aware of the ways this will be triggering for him.  I am hoping for as much collaboration as we can manage in the future.  Unfortunately his take is that I'm a narcissist who used him and caused all the problems, even though he has documented issues with emotional regulation and alcohol.

I have read that it can be counterproductive to do something like an intervention with a pwBPD who is not ready - and the court is my audience moreseo than him - but still this kind of feels like an intervention. I am asking for things like a psych eval for example and raising concerns about behavior and decisions.

If anyone has experience with this and the reaction they got and how they navigated, I'd appreciate it.  I'm trying to put my kids and myself above the potential to hurt his feelings but I'd like to be as respectful as I can and increase odds of his getting help more than decrease them.

Thanks again.

[ForeverDad]

My divorce court gave every indication it was studiously avoiding any action that would indicate either one of us was doing anything other than bickering.  Even my lawyer wouldn't comment on my statements I believed my ex had Personality Disorder traits.  Though after years in and out of court even his temper was sorely tested and he called her several colorful terms of crazy.

So although you certainly don't want to hide her poor behavior and patterns - you do need to report such things - understand you may not get much of a validating response from officialdom, at least not at first.  In time they may come to observe (1) she does have substantive long term issues and (2) you are the parent seeking practical solutions.

Interventions?  You've had years of life together and failed, right?  So you can't do an intervention yourself unless a child is at immediate risk.  Court will act only if the poor behaviors are sufficiently extreme or "actionable".  Court and the professionals supporting the court do not try to "fix" either party.  Both are adults and either or both are allowed to be complete arses.  That is the point of court orders.  Court is The Authority and the court orders are the Boundaries both parties must follow or return to court to explain why the order needs to be adjusted.

Over the years we here in peer support have found that it is best to follow the court's lead.  We ourselves had years trying to "fix our spouses and with some exceptions we failed... which is why the divorce resulted.  So unless the ex wants to change and diligently seeks long term therapy, we rely on documentation of poor behavior, incidents and follow strict Boundaries, similar approach to the court's orders.

Over on our Tools and Skills Workshops board there are a few topics describing Boundaries.  Contrary to what you may have thought in the past, since pwBPD resist boundaries, therefore Boundaries are for us.  How so?  Our Boundaries are on how we respond to the ex's poor behaviors.  They're certain to act out so we need to figure out practical responses.  Read the articles.

[ParentingThruIt]

Thanks so much. This is a really helpful frame. I'll check out the articles.

[ParentingThruIt]

Just to be a little more clear... I don't *want* to attempt an intervention here, but it feels like I am confronting him because of the things I am asking for in order to make sure the kids are safe.  My intention isn't to confront him, but I do need to raise my concerns to court (since he hasn't acted on them). Sounds good to keep the focus on the behavior and your advice to follow the court's lead makes sense.

[livednlearned]

I have read that it can be counterproductive to do something like an intervention with a pwBPD who is not ready - and the court is my audience moreseo than him - but still this kind of feels like an intervention. I am asking for things like a psych eval for example and raising concerns about behavior and decisions.

I understand why it might seem like an intervention but phrasing it that way might be problematic  ... he's an adult who can drink to his heart's content. He can be mentally ill and not seek help. He can play video games all day long and live beyond his means. These are his choices and these are not incriminating behaviors.

Until and unless they impact the kids.

All courts care about it is 1) what documentation is there that he is endangering the minor children; 2) is more documentation needed (e.g. psyche eval, substance abuse monitoring, parenting classes, etc.); 3) what reasonable solutions are there to keep the minor kids safe.

It's a fine line between saying "I am not comfortable with the kids being with him overnight/too long/all weekend/if he's drinking" and "I will not permit my kids to be with him unless he gets sober/gets therapy/goes outside more/gets a good job."

It's important to recognize the distinction.

[ForeverDad]

Early in my separation we were both ordered to get a Psych Eval.  I spent an hour or so filling out forms and a test plus a brief interview by a college gradstudent.  My result was "anxiety".  Hers?  I never found out.  For all I know she never even complied with the order.  That was it, the lawyers simply moved on.

We had a court order psych evals early in our case for both of us.  That started as a good thing but I flubbed it.  The risk with such orders is three-fold.  First, if only you get ordered to comply then you are typically seen as the accused and the other as the victim, not good.  You need the other parent to be scrutinized too!  If any order could cast you as the perp or let the other parent avoid being scrutinized, then if at all possible, get any ordered evaluations applied to both of you.  Second, these are only an overview of a person's mental state and don't even try to assess the impact on parenting and the children.  Third, the other spouse may not comply.  That's what happened to me.

During my separation in 2005-2006 we both were ordered to submit to psych evals and provide our results to the court and lawyers.  I complied.  (The quickie eval concluded I had "anxiety".)  Then silence.  Where was then-stbEx's eval?  To this day I still haven't seen it nor do I know whether she even got a psych eval at all...

My conclusion:  Any order, deal or process where both of you have to do something and provide it to the court and lawyers, you cannot risk complying first.  There is real risk the other side will simply not comply and not even be held accountable.  So I advocate this in such situations:  Tell your lawyer you have complied, maybe even provide the results to your lawyer but then instruct your lawyer to hold it (sort of as is done in escrow) until the other party is ready to exchange the results.

What I did was ask for an in-depth Custody Evaluation and fortunately we chose a respected child psychologist as the custody evaluator.  That was important, too many possible evaluators could be rookie lawyers.  Often real experts don't want to bother with complicated cases that could take many months to complete.  Be forewarned that a CE is expensive.

[ParentingThruIt]

Thanks guys. I'm preparing myself for this not to be taken seriously but it feels good to at least raise the concern, particularly if behaviors become an issue later.

[ParentingThruIt]

Thanks again everyone. I went ahead and requested a GAL with a mental health focus, and for the evaluation to be completed before his custody time increases.

I am trying to think about this short term and long term. I am hoping the evaluation will highlight some of his issues with stress tolerance, isolation, etc and will help my case to keep more than half time custody ultimately. And even if he is relatively stable at the moment and gets more custody than I would like, I am hoping it draws a line in the sand to document issues that have occurred, in case they recur.

I also realize this might be too much to hope for. I might not get the GAL at all, or the recommendation might be limited. He has an ability to seemingly pull it together for finite periods of time.

For those of you with joint custody, do you just have to accept that you do your best with the parenting time you have and the influence you have? And if things rise to the level of significant concern maybe you go back to court?

[livednlearned]

For those of you with joint custody, do you just have to accept that you do your best with the parenting time you have and the influence you have? And if things rise to the level of significant concern maybe you go back to court?

That's what happened in my case. It's a nail biter to send your kid to a disordered parent with substance abuse issues but the reality is that a judge is considered the "supreme witness" to a case, which means he or she catches up to what you already know when you bring new or ongoing documentation to court.

It's anecdotal but I do think disordered fathers seem to give up time more easily while fighting for more, if they can self-organize enough to do so. There are plenty of examples of mothers behaving this way but not to the same degree, at least based on what people have posted here over the years.

As troubling incidents stacked up we went back to court and while it took what felt to me like heroic doses of documentation, eventually the court gave me the equivalent of sole custody. I think I mentioned this before that it was essentially my ex giving two middle fingers to the judge's order. These included complying with reasonable measures to indicate he would do whatever was necessary to gain back time with our son. Meaning he didn't really lose custody as much as he just say  it and walked away.

The other thing you can do is focus on raising emotionally resilient kids. Most of us who end up in these marriages showed up with some deficits of our own. I found a handful of books and therapy for myself made a huge difference in helping my son make sense of his dad. It's not just about protecting them from what the disordered parent does, it's also demonstrating what emotional leadership looks like, which struck me as doubly important raising a boy.

[ParentingThruIt]

Thank you! The resources here have been helpful.

He was a stay at home dad for years and the kids are a big part of his identity, and he does care about them. It’s possible that he will refuse to do some things even if it means limiting his custody. It’s hard because I don’t know for sure if the substance stuff is happening now, but there’s a definite pattern of isolation, overwhelm, overreaction, alternate facts / view of reality, etc. he has tried to hold it together for the kids but that broke down significantly about a year ago.

Your points are a good reminder to hold boundaries and ask for what I think is needed and report what I’m concerned about.

And, Either way the resilient kids stuff sounds good.

[ParentingThruIt]

.


The other thing you can do is focus on raising emotionally resilient kids. Most of us who end up in these marriages showed up with some deficits of our own. I found a handful of books and therapy for myself made a huge difference in helping my son make sense of his dad. It's not just about protecting them from what the disordered parent does, it's also demonstrating what emotional leadership looks like, which struck me as doubly important raising a boy.

If you’d be willing to share a couple books, I’d be grateful! I started Raising Resilient Kids w an NPD/BPD spouse already. Thanks again.