Is Rebuilding Possible After the "Fourth Horseman"?

[HurtAndTired]

Hi all,

A quick summary of my situation: I have been with my dBPDw for over 12 years. During this time her BPD cycle first went into the devaluation stage about a year into the relationship. We have been through the cycle more times than I care to count. Each time the cycle repeated, the unacceptable behaviors would escalate as she realized that if she could get away with what she had just done, why not push the boundaries a bit further next time? This ended up with some pretty severe abuse (I do not use the word lightly) which included many incidents of domestic violence. The worst DV was when she broke a large framed photograph over my head while I was sleeping. The picture and frame weighed about 3 pounds and the glass shattered on my temple, which could have killed me. Her BPD is of the petulant subtype and her rages are violent outward-directed rather than inward-directed self-harm.

Over the years I became isolated from friends and family as I tried to cover up the DV and other abuse. Being a DV survivor who is male has complicated my situation as it does for so many men who suffer in silence, afraid of the reactions that they will receive if they dare to come forward. I would make excuses for the bruises, scratches, and cuts to work colleagues or would call in sick if it was bad enough.

I also gradually shut down emotionally and built a protective wall around myself. I stopped sharing anything but the most essential details of my life with her because anything but those basic details would be remembered and later twisted and weaponized against me in our frequent arguments.

My social life completely died as I surrendered complete control over my whereabouts, other than work or church, to my wife. Even with work and church, I would be asked to send selfies to prove where I was if she was feeling suspicious. I stopped giving anything but the most vague estimates of when I would be home from work, church, or the store because there would be hell to pay if I was even a few minutes "late." At one point, I voluntarily put a GPS tracking app on my phone so she could track my whereabouts at all times. I uninstalled it when it malfunctioned and showed that I was out of state (which was impossible as I would have had to have access to a supersonic jet to make it several states away and back in the course of a couple of hours.)

A little over three years ago our son was born. A little less than a year ago, I came to the realization that he was old enough that witnessing the abuse was going to affect him in a very negative way, and that I needed to put a stop to it as soon as possible. I read everything that I could about BPD, and the most helpful book for me was "Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get On with Life." My son gave me the courage to act that I could never find for myself, and that book gave me the roadmap to lay down strict boundaries to protect him and myself from any further abuse. I laid those boundaries down about 11 months ago and, because I have so strictly enforced them, they have done a remarkably effective job of ending the abuse.

I have made the decision to stay in my marriage for myriad reasons. Some of them are due to my religious convictions, others are for much more practical reasons such as fearing loss of custody of a young child to an unstable person and loss of financial security (my wife has pressured me deep into debt to pay for luxury gifts and vacations and we need both of our incomes to stay afloat.) I have made the decision to stay for a minimum of four more years (until S3 is 7 and is old enough to dispute any false accusations of me abusing him in an attempt to gain custody.) I am hoping against hope that my wife decides to get counseling and work on herself during that time. I am hoping for the best, but planning for the worst (financial planning, legal counseling, etc.) I am not "conflicted" but I am realistic.

I have done everything that I can do from my half of the relationship to make things better. I have laid down boundaries that have stopped most of the abuse. For example, I had to call the police one time to show that I was serious about the physical abuse stopping and she has not attacked me since for fear that she will go to jail. Other boundaries have been likewise strictly enforced and carry unpleasant, but natural, negative consequences that follow from making poor decisions (i.e. suicide threats will be called into 911 and taken seriously.) I have been in individual counseling for several years and have been working on self-care. I have been validating my wife whenever possible. We tried couples counseling, but our therapist stopped the therapy and told us that he could not work with us until we were BOTH in individual therapy and working on ourselves (my wife refuses to go to counseling because she feels that there is nothing wrong with her.)

Things HAVE gotten better, but it has nearly been 100% due to my effort and nearly none of it has come from her doing any work from her 50 percent of the relationship. My question to you all is this: is it possible to rebuild our relationship while I am the only one working on it? I have seen the Gottman Four Horsemen of Relationships referred to on many posts on BPDFamily. These four stages of relationship decay are supposed to accurately predict the success or failure of a relationship. The horsemen, in order, are criticism, contempt, defensiveness, and stonewalling.

We have definitely reached the fourth and final horseman, stonewalling, in our marriage. I "stonewall" because I have to limit what I can share with my wife. Sharing more than the minimum details of my life leads to accusations of cheating, lying, etc. I also have to break off communication with my wife when she starts yelling at me or name-calling (violating boundaries) by removing myself from the "conversation." My wife "stonewalls" by giving me the silent treatment when she is really upset. There is no question that she has contempt for me when she is splitting, and although I have tried mightily not to feel contempt for her, at times I do.

I know what this says about the odds of the marriage being successful, and yet I choose to stay (for now) for the above-mentioned reasons. Quitting is not an option (at this point) and I really would like for things to get better. Things HAVE gotten better. The physical abuse has stopped. The name-calling in front of our son has greatly lessened, as has the yelling in front of him. However, she is still drinking to the point of intoxication nearly every day and still frequently crosses boundaries about verbal, emotional, mental, and sexual abuse when she is intoxicated, her inhibitions are down, and we are in private (i.e. when we are in the bedroom and/or our son is asleep.) Has anyone had success in pulling their marriage back from the brink when things have gotten this bad? If I continue to be the only one putting in the work, can things continue to improve?

Nothing recently has happened to cause me to despair, I am just in a contemplative mood and I am looking for some words of encouragement. Perhaps a success story or two. I am also ok with having a reality check (no run messages though) if I have to be content with the progress that I have made so far (barring her deciding to get help.)

Thanks,

HurtAndTired

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Joyful Noise]

Sounds like a committed relationship with alcohol is also on the table. That, in itself, is enough to do serious damage to a child's psyche. Take it as seriously as you have the physical abuse acted out towards yourself.

[ChooseHappiness]

This sounds like an incredibly difficult situation -- especially as there is a child involved.

I have a reality check rather than a success story. I was in a very similar situation, although without the domestic violence (though there were a number of violent "accidents" involving our youngest child when he was younger). I considered leaving when the children were young but didn't want them to be in a shared custody situation where I thought their safety and well-being would be at risk. (A lawyer advised me that I would not be able to get sole custody.) So I stuck around for six years or so before the relationship finally imploded.

Things didn't get better, and in some ways they got worse, although not unbearably so. During that time, however, I was able to provide the children stability and help them with their development, and I was able to work on my own needs and interests again. We'll still be in a shared custody situation of some sort going forward, but the children are older and less reliant on my ex now - and the older one has asked to be with me majority time anyway. So if you're using the time you stay with her to work on yourself and be a good parent, it'll likely be a positive no matter how things turn out with the relationship.

It sounds like you are doing everything right - setting clear boundaries, working with therapists, being the stable parent for your child, etc. Make sure you are reporting any violence, etc. It's really important to have a track record of her behaviour down the road if custody becomes an issue or if she makes false allegations. As others have pointed out, the courts aren't usually interested in a diagnosis, but they do take note of patterns of behaviour.

Also, it's important to publicly acknowledge what is happening, even if it's only with lawyers/police and close friends. Trying to hide this stuff in the hope that it will be better one day drives you mad and can cause mental health issues in yourself. Acknowledging to others what is happening will often help your own perspective on things.

Most importantly, it seems like you are being realistic about possible outcomes. If your wife is refusing therapy and doesn't think anything is wrong with her, the situation is unlikely to change. It takes two to rebuild a relationship. While all the work you're doing is admirable, it's unlikely to be enough if she's not contributing the same.

I hope you find a way to some calm.

[kells76]

Hi HurtAndTired, thanks for filling us in on where things are at for you and your family. Identifying your own contribution(s) to the dynamic is important. It's good you're able to do that here, and I think the Gottman framework could be helpful. I think I'm getting a vibe of "OK, so if this is where we're at, where do we go from here" from your post.

It's a tricky situation, so like you mentioned, simplistic (black-and-white) solutions like "just run" aren't helpful for you. In fact, it's a good moment to remind all of us of part of the "Bettering" board charter:

Additional Guidelines for this Board: Please read the community guidelines (see link at the bottom of every thread). The following guidelines are also in effect for this board:
 

• Please do not urge participants to exit their relationship. Members post here to find solutions to difficult problems. Please allow them the opportunity.

• Please do not use this board as a place to complain about your partner without seeking constructive relationship advice.  We are here to find solutions.  It is a given that  our partners are difficult.

• We are not victims and this board is not about right and wrong. Please do not take sides in couples disputes or seek to have other members agree, support or defend your position in your relationship disputes.  This will only serve to polarize matters in your real life and make resolution further out of reach.

So we can approach your situation with the framework of:

we aren't here to say "get out now" (I respect that you brought that up)
it is the rule, not the exception, that partners are difficult
success and effectiveness come from centering and depolarizing

I think we're on the same page there.

...

Real question: in the most generous terms possible, what would you say your wife's core hurts about you and the relationship are? We're here to dig deep to try to discover a way back from the edge, so this means moving beyond "she thinks I don't take care of her but actually I _____________".

I'll open up and give an example from my relationship. One way I could answer "what is my H's core hurt about us/our relationship" would be "he doesn't like it when I don't talk to him as much as he wants". It's subtle, but it's putting it in terms slightly favorable to me: "it's his problem". Digging deeper would look like: "I know that he feels more understood, and understands me better, when I connect with him verbally. He feels unseen, unimportant, and wounded when I don't talk to him (or do but only nominally) -- it comes across as me shutting him out and rejecting him". His core hurt is when I figuratively close the door on him to protect myself.

I do want to reiterate that focusing on your contribution to the dynamic, and uncovering how your W perceives the relationship, aren't me saying "nothing that happened in the past mattered". It is saying: what happened to you in the past is real and profoundly impactful, and we're standing here today with choices about how to move forward, and the only person with choices that we can control is ourselves.

Let me know if any of that doesn't make sense. Hard stuff for sure.

...

One more quick question: how far have you dived into Gottman stuff? Have you looked at this yet: The Four Horsemen: The Antidotes

[HurtAndTired]

Hi Kells,

Thank you for the insightful and thought-provoking response. It is a doozy of a question to try to answer what my wife's core hurts about me and the relationship are. I will do my best to give an answer that is in your suggested format. Mind you that these are her perceived hurts in many cases rather than actual hurts. This is due to her delusions but I am including them because they are very, very real to her. Here it goes:

My wife's core hurts about me and the relationship are that she feels like I do not want her physically as much as I should, that I lie to her about my intentions and my actions, that I am not trustworthy and have betrayed her trust, that I am a cheater who is constantly looking for someone else to replace her, that I am not the kind of man that she thought that I was when she met me, that I do not love her unconditionally, that I am incapable of understanding what it is that she is trying desperately to communicate to me, that I lack empathy for her and how hurt she is, and that I am not rescuing her from her hurts the way that she expects me to, that I am not fixing her and filling the internal emptiness like I should be doing.

I will try to address each of these hurts, real or perceived, in order. It is true that we are not physically intimate as often as we used to be. There are several reasons for this. 1. I am 49 and no longer have the vitality that I did when we met 13 years ago. 2. I also have a pituitary disorder that throws all of my hormones off (testosterone, estradiol, vasopressin, etc.) I have been under the care of an excellent endocrinologist for years and my hormones are more or less balanced now due to a pretty extensive regimen of medications, but they fluctuate and I need to have bloodwork done multiple times each year to check levels and adjust medications as needed. So, I am not as young as I used to be, sometimes my body does not work as it should. 3. Finally, sex is tied to real intimacy for me and is not just a mechanical function. For me to be "in the mood" I need to feel safe and cared for, and most of the time I do not. On the contrary, she has often criticized or mocked me during or after sex. I would like to improve this area of our life but feel that there is not much I can do beyond the boundary that I have laid down that negativity before, during, or after intimacy will force me to physically remove myself from the situation.

As for the betrayal of trust, lying, and cheating these are mostly perceived hurts rather than real hurts. I have not cheated on my wife, but she is convinced that I have and that I am constantly on the lookout for other women to sleep with. I have never intentionally lied to her, although I am human and have sometimes mistakenly said something that turned out to be incorrect or I have "lied" through omission of details that I think would trigger her (e.g. I was the only man at a teachers' conference.) When we first started dating, my wife warned me that I should never, ever lie to her. Whatever modicum of trust she had in me evaporated within the first year of us being together as the idealization phase of our relationship ended and she realized that I was a real, error-prone, human person rather than the perfect made-up version of me that lived in her mind. It's hard to betray a trust that never really existed in the first place, but I do my best to only make promises that I can keep. I have learned to be vague about exactly when I will be home from work, church, the store, etc. so that I am not caught "lying" about when I will get home (5 minutes late will be enough to set her off.) I will say that I will tackle a project "this weekend" but will not specify exactly what day or time or wager an estimate of how long it will take me to finish a project. I am a man of my word, but I have learned to build in buffer zones for unpredictable things (traffic jams, running into a work colleague or student at the grocery store, rain when I was planning to mow the lawn, etc.)

There are many times that do not understand what she is trying to communicate to me. This is an area that I have been working on and making some progress. I have been learning to hear the message behind the words rather than the words themselves. To listen to the emotion being expressed that is driving the words. I am not good at this, but I am getting better. The roadblock that I am currently struggling with is when she is expressing herself in a way that is hurtful and crosses a boundary. I remove myself from conversations if I am being yelled/sworn at, called names, or when an argument becomes circular. I am willing to listen to her vent and be upset as long as she can do it in a somewhat respectful manner. I model this by following my own rules and have been modeling it by teaching our S3 (in front of my wife) that while it's ok for him to feel angry, it's not ok to name-call or yell at someone. For me to continue to practice truly listening to my wife, she needs to be able to self-regulate more frequently and reliably so that I can stay in the room to listen to her without violating one of my core values (people should be talked to in a respectful way, even if you are upset with them.)

While I love my wife, I do not love her unconditionally. Now that I am a father I understand what unconditional love is. I unconditionally love my son. Nothing he could do or say would ever change that. That love will not erode over time. Even if he were to develop BPD and subject me to terrible treatment, I would always love him as my son - albeit from a safe distance when necessary. The love between a husband and wife can, and unfortunately does, erode under the acid of prolonged conflict.

This is where I am at with her. I love her, but that love has suffered greatly and has been diminished by years of abuse. However, I know we can come back from it if we both work at it. The other day she was trying to run her fingers through our son's hair and he was dodging her. She tried to get him to let her by making him jealous. "See how much Daddy likes it when I do that to him?" she said as she ran her fingers through my hair for the first time in many years. That simple human touch of tenderness and kindness almost undid me because I was so starved for it. This is perhaps something that I can try to lead by example. If I am more physically affectionate with her, perhaps she will start doing simple things that mean so much once again. Things like holding hands, putting a hand on a shoulder, and hugs.

I do feel empathy for how hurt my wife is. She is a survivor of child sexual abuse, her neglectful and physically abusive mother, her beloved father dying when she was very young, and a generally rough life. I can't imagine living through the things that she has been through. That being said, I have been listening to her core wounds for nearly thirteen years and have seen her do nothing to try to heal them. I wasted years of my life trying to heal them for her before finally realizing that it was beyond my power to do so. Any encouragement to seek therapy or spiritual counseling has been rebuffed. While I have empathy, it has started to reach its limits. It is difficult to continue to feel bad for someone who refuses to help themselves. It's like watching someone with a knife stuck in their arm walk around complaining about it for years. At first, you truly feel awful for this person, but eventually, you end up just scratching your head as to why they keep ignoring your pleas to go to the hospital and have the knife removed. You still feel bad for them, but not as urgently and sharply as you did when you first saw the knife sticking out of their arm. This brings us to the final core hurt that she has with me and the relationship.

My wife wants me to be the white knight who rescues her from her problems, but only she can do that. I can cheer for her while she does the work. I can support her with encouragement and tell her how proud I am of her for facing her demons, but I cannot do it for her. If it were possible for one person to fix another through sheer will, or love, she would have been healed from her wounds years ago. No amount of love, support, listening, validation, or anything else will ever fill the massive hole inside of her unless she makes the decision to seek professional help and stick with it. Not just go to therapy, but to put in the time and work of self-discovery and processing that will undoubtedly be painful, difficult, and take years to do.

Finally, I have read "The Four Horsemen: The Antidotes" and I have been trying to employ them as much as possible. The issue is once again that I can only apply them to my half of the relationship. It would be ideal if we were working on this together, but I do not see that happening while she still thinks that I am the source of all the problems in the relationship and takes no responsibility or accountability for any of it (or at least won't acknowledge it, even if she feels it at times.) I have only started to really dig into Gottman and find it fascinating. I will continue to study and see how much I can apply to my marriage.

Thanks,

HurtAndTired

[jaded7]

Hi Kells,

Thank you for the insightful and thought-provoking response. It is a doozy of a question to try to answer what my wife's core hurts about me and the relationship are. I will do my best to give an answer that is in your suggested format. Mind you that these are her perceived hurts in many cases rather than actual hurts. This is due to her delusions but I am including them because they are very, very real to her. Here it goes:

My wife's core hurts about me and the relationship are that she feels like I do not want her physically as much as I should, that I lie to her about my intentions and my actions, that I am not trustworthy and have betrayed her trust, that I am a cheater who is constantly looking for someone else to replace her, that I am not the kind of man that she thought that I was when she met me, that I do not love her unconditionally, that I am incapable of understanding what it is that she is trying desperately to communicate to me, that I lack empathy for her and how hurt she is, and that I am not rescuing her from her hurts the way that she expects me to, that I am not fixing her and filling the internal emptiness like I should be doing.

I will try to address each of these hurts, real or perceived, in order. It is true that we are not physically intimate as often as we used to be. There are several reasons for this. 1. I am 49 and no longer have the vitality that I did when we met 13 years ago. 2. I also have a pituitary disorder that throws all of my hormones off (testosterone, estradiol, vasopressin, etc.) I have been under the care of an excellent endocrinologist for years and my hormones are more or less balanced now due to a pretty extensive regimen of medications, but they fluctuate and I need to have bloodwork done multiple times each year to check levels and adjust medications as needed. So, I am not as young as I used to be, sometimes my body does not work as it should. 3. Finally, sex is tied to real intimacy for me and is not just a mechanical function. For me to be "in the mood" I need to feel safe and cared for, and most of the time I do not. On the contrary, she has often criticized or mocked me during or after sex. I would like to improve this area of our life but feel that there is not much I can do beyond the boundary that I have laid down that negativity before, during, or after intimacy will force me to physically remove myself from the situation.

As for the betrayal of trust, lying, and cheating these are mostly perceived hurts rather than real hurts. I have not cheated on my wife, but she is convinced that I have and that I am constantly on the lookout for other women to sleep with. I have never intentionally lied to her, although I am human and have sometimes mistakenly said something that turned out to be incorrect or I have "lied" through omission of details that I think would trigger her (e.g. I was the only man at a teachers' conference.) When we first started dating, my wife warned me that I should never, ever lie to her. Whatever modicum of trust she had in me evaporated within the first year of us being together as the idealization phase of our relationship ended and she realized that I was a real, error-prone, human person rather than the perfect made-up version of me that lived in her mind. It's hard to betray a trust that never really existed in the first place, but I do my best to only make promises that I can keep. I have learned to be vague about exactly when I will be home from work, church, the store, etc. so that I am not caught "lying" about when I will get home (5 minutes late will be enough to set her off.) I will say that I will tackle a project "this weekend" but will not specify exactly what day or time or wager an estimate of how long it will take me to finish a project. I am a man of my word, but I have learned to build in buffer zones for unpredictable things (traffic jams, running into a work colleague or student at the grocery store, rain when I was planning to mow the lawn, etc.)

There are many times that do not understand what she is trying to communicate to me. This is an area that I have been working on and making some progress. I have been learning to hear the message behind the words rather than the words themselves. To listen to the emotion being expressed that is driving the words. I am not good at this, but I am getting better. The roadblock that I am currently struggling with is when she is expressing herself in a way that is hurtful and crosses a boundary. I remove myself from conversations if I am being yelled/sworn at, called names, or when an argument becomes circular. I am willing to listen to her vent and be upset as long as she can do it in a somewhat respectful manner. I model this by following my own rules and have been modeling it by teaching our S3 (in front of my wife) that while it's ok for him to feel angry, it's not ok to name-call or yell at someone. For me to continue to practice truly listening to my wife, she needs to be able to self-regulate more frequently and reliably so that I can stay in the room to listen to her without violating one of my core values (people should be talked to in a respectful way, even if you are upset with them.)

While I love my wife, I do not love her unconditionally. Now that I am a father I understand what unconditional love is. I unconditionally love my son. Nothing he could do or say would ever change that. That love will not erode over time. Even if he were to develop BPD and subject me to terrible treatment, I would always love him as my son - albeit from a safe distance when necessary. The love between a husband and wife can, and unfortunately does, erode under the acid of prolonged conflict.

This is where I am at with her. I love her, but that love has suffered greatly and has been diminished by years of abuse. However, I know we can come back from it if we both work at it. The other day she was trying to run her fingers through our son's hair and he was dodging her. She tried to get him to let her by making him jealous. "See how much Daddy likes it when I do that to him?" she said as she ran her fingers through my hair for the first time in many years. That simple human touch of tenderness and kindness almost undid me because I was so starved for it. This is perhaps something that I can try to lead by example. If I am more physically affectionate with her, perhaps she will start doing simple things that mean so much once again. Things like holding hands, putting a hand on a shoulder, and hugs.

I do feel empathy for how hurt my wife is. She is a survivor of child sexual abuse, her neglectful and physically abusive mother, her beloved father dying when she was very young, and a generally rough life. I can't imagine living through the things that she has been through. That being said, I have been listening to her core wounds for nearly thirteen years and have seen her do nothing to try to heal them. I wasted years of my life trying to heal them for her before finally realizing that it was beyond my power to do so. Any encouragement to seek therapy or spiritual counseling has been rebuffed. While I have empathy, it has started to reach its limits. It is difficult to continue to feel bad for someone who refuses to help themselves. It's like watching someone with a knife stuck in their arm walk around complaining about it for years. At first, you truly feel awful for this person, but eventually, you end up just scratching your head as to why they keep ignoring your pleas to go to the hospital and have the knife removed. You still feel bad for them, but not as urgently and sharply as you did when you first saw the knife sticking out of their arm. This brings us to the final core hurt that she has with me and the relationship.

My wife wants me to be the white knight who rescues her from her problems, but only she can do that. I can cheer for her while she does the work. I can support her with encouragement and tell her how proud I am of her for facing her demons, but I cannot do it for her. If it were possible for one person to fix another through sheer will, or love, she would have been healed from her wounds years ago. No amount of love, support, listening, validation, or anything else will ever fill the massive hole inside of her unless she makes the decision to seek professional help and stick with it. Not just go to therapy, but to put in the time and work of self-discovery and processing that will undoubtedly be painful, difficult, and take years to do.

Finally, I have read "The Four Horsemen: The Antidotes" and I have been trying to employ them as much as possible. The issue is once again that I can only apply them to my half of the relationship. It would be ideal if we were working on this together, but I do not see that happening while she still thinks that I am the source of all the problems in the relationship and takes no responsibility or accountability for any of it (or at least won't acknowledge it, even if she feels it at times.) I have only started to really dig into Gottman and find it fascinating. I will continue to study and see how much I can apply to my marriage.

Thanks,

HurtAndTired

I don't have a lot to offer HurtandTired, other than respect for all the work you are doing, and the insights you have. We've shared some similar experiences here on the board around the physical stuff and how you feel about, and you know I feel the same way.

"1. I am 49 and no longer have the vitality that I did when we met 13 years ago. 2. I also have a pituitary disorder that throws all of my hormones off (testosterone, estradiol, vasopressin, etc.) I have been under the care of an excellent endocrinologist for years and my hormones are more or less balanced now due to a pretty extensive regimen of medications, but they fluctuate and I need to have bloodwork done multiple times each year to check levels and adjust medications as needed. So, I am not as young as I used to be, sometimes my body does not work as it should. 3. Finally, sex is tied to real intimacy for me and is not just a mechanical function. For me to be "in the mood" I need to feel safe and cared for, and most of the time I do not. On the contrary, she has often criticized or mocked me during or after sex. I would like to improve this area of our life but feel that there is not much I can do beyond the boundary that I have laid down that negativity before, during, or after intimacy will force me to physically remove myself from the situation."

That really struck me.

I see a person here, you, who is doing everything they can to stay centered in a very tough situation. You have real awareness and have set some really good boundaries, and they have worked...at least around the physical abuse.

I would just share that, as someone else pointed out, excessive alcohol use in the home, and the situations it creates, is quite damaging to children. I do see your reasons for staying, and they make sense. I hope that she would moderate her alcohol use, especially with her violent tendencies.

Regarding the Gottmans and the 4 Horsemen, I find it fascinating as well. Especially given the robust database from which that comes. I remember first reading about them and thinking to myself.....'wow, she does all 4. And that's what that tone is, that attitude, the ease with which she mocks me and belittles me'. Wow. In our last conversation, I said to her 'honey, you seem to have a lot of contempt for me, and I don't know why'. Major mistake- she then really went off on me.

Just acknowledging your great work and analysis HurtandTired.