when you messed up too

[Caleb91]

I should start by saying that my ex has not been diagnosed with BPD, but ever since my therapist said "that sounds a lot like borderline personality disorder" while listening to my war stories, I've been reading about it and learning largely from the people in this wonderful community. 

My ex-gf and I have been broken up for nearly two years, in NC for nearly two years (except for one confusing text from her which I'll explain), and like so many people here I can't stop thinking about her, ruminating, and hoping that we get another shot to work things out, while of course working on ourselves.

Our relationship had the same patterns that so many here have experienced: push/pull, tests and games, scenarios where you can't win, and more mini breakups than I can count. But there's one significant factor that I haven't seen discussed much here and that's that I messed up too. Yes like most pwBPD she imagined a lot of things, twisted my words and actions into the worst thing possible, and blamed me for things that I didn't deserve. But I made mistakes. I even betrayed her, which hurts my heart so much to admit, but I did.

It sounds common for exes with bpd to return (on their terms, when their supply is low, etc) but what are the chances and process like when their partner did some bad stuff too? 

I know that no two pwBPD are the same so let me give some insight into my ex. 

She was in her late 20s when we met, and had really never dated anybody. She was a virgin. She had some of the most severe intimacy issues I've ever seen, hating even hugs from people. We texted nonstop, and went on some dates, but she was hard to pin down to see in person. She threw roadblocks in the way of dating, trying to cancel even our first date, which I eventually talked her into showing up for. She slowly warmed up and a few months into going on sporadic dates, she was up for trying to sleep together. It didn't go well. She felt too uncomfortable, so we stopped before going very far.

We continued texting but it became harder to see her in person. She began using that awkward night as the reason not to see each other, saying that she was embarrassed, and there's "something wrong with her" because she was so old without ever having been intimate with anybody. I had grown to really care about this girl so I was patient, and settled into a role of mostly text friend.

After months of this, more excuses accumulated, reasons why it would be best to just text instead of see each other, and I was starting to get really hurt, so I stepped away. I told her that I really liked her, loved her actually, but that this was too painful for me, and to sort out some of the things she had used as an excuse for not wanting to date me. I initiated a NC period, but I missed her everyday, and worked to get her an incredibly thoughtful gift, something extremely specific and hard to get. The gift arrived around a month into our NC period and a few days later I woke up to a 'thank you' text from her. We started talking again, and made a plan to meet.

This was the first date in a while, and it was different. There was a new warmth, and at the end of the night she went in for a kiss, the first time ever in over a year of knowing her that she initiated a kiss. It was a good kiss too, and for the first time I knew for sure that she really liked me.

Pretty much immediately the push/pull started. Telling me I should date other people, that she didn't know if she'd ever want to sleep with me, didn't know how to be warm, didn't know if she could ever be what I wanted. I was persistent. Some of the "push" episodes became angrier, telling me that I was putting too much pressure on her, and we had a series of mini breakups. It was sort of a catch-22 because my persistence was the only reason we continued making progress, but the "pressure" was also the reason I was ending up in the dog house.

In any case, we continued making progress and within a couple months we slept together. This part of our relationship astounds me because I was prepared for there always to be an aversion to physical intimacy, but soon this became the most connected, passionate, fulfilling sexual relationship I've ever had. I did not see that coming. And it gave me hope that any change or improvement was possible.

But the push/pull didn't stop. What's interesting, although maybe obvious, is that her reasons for running away suddenly flipped 180. Before it had always been that I was being too persistent about advancing the relationship, and now the complaints and attacks turned into the "if you really loved me..." variety.

We continued breaking up and making up, and each time it got more severe. Whereas before it had been that she "didn't think we should talk for a while" or "needed time to figure some stuff out" now it was more rageful episodes where she said that she would never speak to me again. When this was happening, I did actually wonder if that was it and we'd never speak again.

But we always came back together, always because I persistently apologized whether or not I believed I had really been in the wrong, and each time we'd take some step forward with intimacy or in the relationship. It was like clockwork, almost like her way of apologizing for overreacting, the step forward we'd take immediately after each reconciliation.

But this is where I started screwing up.

I don't usually have a wandering eye, and am a naturally monogamous person, but throughout this rollercoaster relationship I never stopped talking to certain girls. Some of these girls were exes, some I had never dated but maybe deep down knew there was potential with, and with some there was truly not a shred of romantic interest in either direction. These women became a source of conflict that overshadowed all other conflicts in our very conflict-ridden relationship. At the time I was very defensive, insisting that I had the right to have female friends, but looking back, after lots of reflection, I know that I was in the wrong about a lot of this.

With the friends who could have been "back burner" romantic interests, I lied about or underplayed this. I did even shadier things like silence certain people's notifications or change contact names in my phone. And during some of the breakups, I hung out with an ex. At the time I tried to rationalize all of this. 1) We had gone though such a long period, over a year, where I was being held at arms length and turned into a text friend, so of course during this period I was going to be talking to other people. 2) Once our relationship really got going, everything was eggshells, so I was trying to keep the peace by not having a girl's name pop up on my phone, even though my solutions were stupid and wrong. 3) I was being broken up with so often, and being told that we'd never speak again, so I figured I had the right to talk to or hang out with whoever I wanted during the single periods. I know that none of this logic is sound or moral, and some of you will call me a straight-up cheater, and you might be right, but I hope that some in this community can also sympathize with being in a confusing, distressing, tumultuous, unpredictable, hurricane of a relationship and how that can distort our own judgement.

The conflict over these female "friends" came to a head and my girlfriend gave me an ultimatum: "me or them." I was so worn down from over two years of push and pull, being attacked for things I didn't do or say, damned if you do damned if you don't games, being broken up with and blocked repeatedly, that I felt aggrieved being asked to give up friends, some of whom really were just friends who made my life richer. I said I couldn't do it. She blocked me and I've been blocked ever since.

Pretty much immediately after the breakup I started begging for another chance over email, the only line of communication that didn't seem to be blocked. In those first weeks and months I was panicked over losing somebody so important to me, who I cared about, loved, invested so much in and wanted so badly to give a better life than she had before I met her. I've also come to realize that my girlfriend was my drug and I was in withdrawl. As time has moved on, the panic has turned into true remorse over the things I did wrong, awareness of her disorder, and a genuine belief that she and I could fix ourselves and our relationship if we really wanted to. I stopped begging or arguing my case, which I've come to learn usually drives pwBPD further away, and sent one last email over a year ago simply taking account, apologizing for every complaint of hers that has even a sliver of truth, and falling on my sword.

About two months later, which was about a year since the breakup, I received a text from her, the only communication since the breakup as she had ignored every one of my emails. Her text seemed like an icebreaker, sort of making light of our last argument, but when I tried to text back I was still blocked. It was very confusing. Some friends told me it was her way of saying "let's work things out" while keeping the power for a little longer, while others told me she's twisted and was just "f**king with me." I've always chosen the most charitable interpretation which is that she had a weak or nostalgic moment, then thought better of it. I've since sent two lower key emails, along the lines of "it was nice to hear from you, I hope you're doing well, and I'm here if you want to reconnect" thinking that just in case she did want to reconnect but was worried that I've moved on or would reject her, it would be good to let her know that the door is open. After two of those notes, I finally stopped reaching out.

For anybody who has kindly read the extremely long post, how do you think things play out from here, almost 2 years into our (final?) breakup?

She split me black, as the constant badmouthing she did to her friends during our relationship turned into full-on vilification after the breakup, turning me into Hitler and Satan all together, which I know is common. But the extreme anger has possibly subsided and turned into wistfulness, as evidenced by some music choices and posts she's made, but I'm reading tea leaves and don't have much to go on.

I do know that she hasn't been dating. She's not the type of pwBPD that immediately jumps to somebody new. Like I said she was in her late 20s when we met, having never really had a boyfriend, and now she's in her early 30s and I have trouble seeing her form another bond like we had, ever, or at least anytime soon. It's so, so, so very hard for her to form bonds, and it's hard to understate how much patience it took on my part.

I've read a lot on this incredible board and elsewhere and have I've seen both sides: "they always come back if you let them, it's just a matter of time" and "once they're done they're done, especially if you've wronged them." I've read that she was "an illusion" and "never really loved me" and that pwBPD want love and do love, but just get triggered. I've read that I'm a co-dependent who needs to move on, an addict who needs to kick the addiction, and that people who love people with BPD just need to be extremely patient and that it's possible for both people to heal and have a good life together.

For anybody who's read this far, how do you think this plays out? Will I ever be forgiven? If being forgiven continues to be my goal, for better or worse, is remaining withdrawn indefinitely the right course of action or do I need to continue to show an effort even two years into NC? I feel this is different than many of the breakups I've read about because when I was split black at the end, I deserved some of it. I messed up. I betrayed her. But I love her and I'm not ready to lose hope that we'll be able to figure things out and have a good life together.


 

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

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[Pook075]

Hello and welcome to the family!  Thanks so much for sharing your story- I want to tell you a little of mine.

When my BPD wife of 24 years left me, she said that one of the main reasons was that I played video games too much.  And like you, I thought about it and said that I'd never play video games again if that would save the marriage...I apologized profusely and didn't play a single game for the next 18 months.

But then something funny happened, I started thinking back about why I played video games to begin with.  My wife would be due home from work around 5 and we'd make plans to go to eat, catch a movie, visit friends, whatever.  So I'd have the kids ready to go by 5 and then we'd wait....6 PM, 7 PM, 8 PM. 

Crap, now I need to quickly get the kids dinner because we just waited around for hours.  My wife shows up at 8:45 and insists that we didn't have plans, that she got distracted with <whatever>, then proceeded to tell me the things I should have done at home.  And when she asked me why I didn't do those things, I'd tell the truth and say the kids and i played Fortnite while we were waiting since we expected her home any minute.

Notice...I was guilty of what she accused me of.  Whenever the kids and i were waiting, we'd play games or watch TV.  But that's not the actual story here, the problem had nothing to do with what I did at home while waiting for my wife.  We spent 20-30 hours a week waiting....that's 100+ hours a month we could have been doing other things if we received a phone call or a text.

The actual problem in all of this is that I didn't hold my wife accountable, I didn't call BS when she made lame excuses why she was never with her husband and kids.

I read every word of your story, and yeah...it's not a great look to message potential future romantic interests.  But is that really why your relationship failed?  If I was breaking up with someone every other week, I would look at other options as well...anyone would.  That doesn't make everything "your fault"...even though she sees it that way.

Or maybe I'm wrong here- was I a terrible husband for playing games with my kids while we were waiting for my wife?  You tell me.

For your specific question, will your ex come back, that's incredibly complicated and nobody can give you a real answer here.  What I would encourage you to do, however, is think back to all those frustrating breakups and think about what you could have done differently....every single time....to reach a different outcome.  I have a feeling that if you did that, you'd see a different pattern and stop being so hard on yourself for making what could have been a mistake....or could have been common sense due to the situation.

For the actual mistake part, I want to touch on that as well.  A relationship is two people being there for each other in good times and bad.  You can't have a relationship without that.  Everyone makes mistakes every single day of their lives, and part of a relationship and love is being able to truly forgive. 

You were dumped over an unfair ultimatum- do you still believe that you made the right choice?  I personally think you did because it doesn't sound like you were in an actual relationship where two people love and forgive each other. 

My point is that the problem all along, in your relationship and in mine, was mental illness.  It wasn't video games, Netflix, or DM's on social media.

If you still want to try rekindling the relationship after two years, then go see her in person.  I just hope you do so with eyes wide open in what you're getting yourself into.  If you're taking blame up front, then that raging and instability won't be far behind.  You must forgive yourself first, and then receive true forgiveness from her as well if the relationship ever has a chance.  But at the same time, there's a lot in your story that she needs to seek forgiveness for as well....you can't just sweep that under the rug and pretend like it won't quickly return.

I hope that helps!

[Caleb91]

Thank you Pook075 for reading my long story and sharing your own. I'm sad to hear what you went through, but comforted to know that I'm not alone in this sort of experience.

I'm curious about how your breakup unfolded. So your wife of 24 years left you, and you spent the next 18 months apologizing and not playing video games. Were you completely iced out during these 18 months, apologizing and making promises into a void, or did you guys continue trying / were there additional breakups after your wife "left" as you say? And where do things stand now, are you permanently broken up, and if so did she ever surface after the final breakup?

It seems natural that we blame ourselves for some of the dynamic, and sure you could have spent those hours waiting doing something more productive than video games (if that was in fact her demand) but your mistakes don't seem nearly as egregious as mine. What I did would be a betrayal in the eyes of many, and especially to a partner with BPD who sees betrayal everywhere. That's why I worry I'll never hear from her again, because this breakup wasn't the kind of sudden ghosting that I read about so often here, which seems easy for the ex partner to backtrack from. This was a serious conflict where I was actually in the wrong (yes the previous two years were very complicated, but still...)

I appreciate your advice to go see her in person, but I know with my ex that that will scare her and be seen as stalking. She wouldn't take out a RO but it would 100% be fuel for "my crazy ex" stories.

Between continuing to wait in silence or sending an email every 6 months, do you have an opinion on which is most likely to put us back in touch? In the past it was always me who had to initiate a reconciliation, whether the separation was one week or one month. But I worry that a two year rupture is just a different beast. 

And do you have any insight on why I might have received this confusing text that seemed like an icebreaker last summer, but which I wasn't able to respond to? Do you see that as the beginning of a very slow re-opening of the door, or a twisting of the knife? It sure seemed like the former, but it's been a year since then with no progress or more contact.

Thank you for your thoughts and helping me feel less alone in this heartbreaking experience. 

[once removed]

I know that none of this logic is sound or moral, and some of you will call me a straight-up cheater, and you might be right, but I hope that some in this community can also sympathize with being in a confusing, distressing, tumultuous, unpredictable, hurricane of a relationship and how that can distort our own judgement.

sure.

i think a lot of us found ourselves compromising our values.

that, in essence, is really the hallmark of a dysfunctional relationship. most relationships end when (or before) those signs begin. dysfunctional relationships persist in their dysfunction, that is, unless both parties can get it on a completely different trajectory (rare but it happens). it makes for a very loaded, and passionate, but ultimately incompatible bond.

my relationship sounds similar to yours in ways. a lot of the same issues. around the same age. it was my first adult relationship. we fought a lot over my behavior/relationships with other women. some of it was her deep insecurity. some of it was mine.

its interesting that you mention her fear of intimacy. keeping one foot out of a relationship, having a lineup of prospective partners, these are things that can point to intimacy issues themselves. conversely, so can choosing a partner with intimacy issues, or one that is emotionally unavailable. it may be something to look into. regardless, at the end of the day, it was one way of coping with the stress of your relationship, and probably not one you want to take into the next relationship. you can learn a lifetime, from learning from your mistakes. its not to say youre a bad person. think of it more like manners or etiquette. we arent born with these things, necessarily, but they can be learned.

the hard part of your inquiry here is that 2 years is a very long time to have been broken up, and with little to no contact. it isnt unheard of, by any means, that two people come together after a lot of time and distance and growth, and decide to give things another try, but its very rare. it sounds like her last message was pleasant, but that she isnt currently or historically receptive to reconnecting. thats a challenging place to reconnect from.

one of the most important things to know, whether youre trying to reconnect, or if youre ultimately trying to break up, is to really understand what broke down the relationship, and how, if possible, that can be resolved. i think that it would help you a great deal to put your focus there. you may find that youve learned a lot, grown and matured, and would be a better, more capable partner than you were, but decide to invest that in a new relationship. or an opportunity might come to demonstrate what a new relationship with her would look like.

[Caleb91]

Thanks "once removed" for your thoughtful response.

Very astute that maintaining ties to exes and "backup" partners is its own form of intimacy avoidance. It's true that we were two people with intimacy issues, that were expressed in different ways. But what's so powerful and hard to let go of is that we shared intimacy that neither of us has had in our lives. I've dated a number of people and never felt that close and comfortable (in some ways) with anybody, and she's basically never dated, and doesn't seem to have really dated in the 2 years since the breakup. As two years turns into three, four, five, if neither of us finds a partner who we love more than we loved each other, I hope and believe that we'll take another look at each other -- not impulsively get back back on the rollercoaster, but thoughtfully consider whether our problems were fixable. We have a lot of unfinished business. I'm sure many people feel that way, but I think she and I have an unusual amount.

In your own experience and having seen so many stories on this board, do relationships with BPD exes always end with zero closure and unfinished business? I feel like most exes, if they're still single long after a breakup, are capable of getting a coffee and assessing the situation, judging the growth or lack thereof. Is such a measured reconciliation possible with a BPD ex? And does the BPD ex who left always have to be in control and make the moves, or can sporadic checkins, though ignored over and over, eventually chip away at the barrier instead of push them further away?

I will say that although I've seen no signs of accountability and only signs of vilification since our breakup (going off the little information I have), my ex did show moments of self-awareness during the relationship. In the heat of the moment it was nothing but projection and blame shifting, but each time we'd come back together following a rupture, she would show some self-awareness and acknowledge some of her role in the dysfunction. And in the big picture, she knows she has issues since during the 1+ years of "let's just be friends, I'm no good for anybody" before we started really dating, she was essentially acknowledging her problems. But after a serious rupture like this, after a split and a painting the blackest black, is somebody like this able to un-split and reflect and think about the unfinished business in a more balanced way?

[once removed]

In your own experience and having seen so many stories on this board, do relationships with BPD exes always end with zero closure and unfinished business? I feel like most exes, if they're still single long after a breakup, are capable of getting a coffee and assessing the situation, judging the growth or lack thereof. Is such a measured reconciliation possible with a BPD ex? And does the BPD ex who left always have to be in control and make the moves, or can sporadic checkins, though ignored over and over, eventually chip away at the barrier instead of push them further away?

please take what you read about BPD on the internet with a large grain of salt. other than npd, there is no mental health condition with more mis and disinformation out there. there is no always or never with someone with bpd. bpd is a spectrum with literally millions of different manifestations. the easiest way to think of it is that people with bpd are just like you and me, do everything we say and do, they just tend to take some of those things to more extreme (pathological) heights.

almost all breakups (of all kinds) end with one person feeling as if they were blindsided; didnt get closure, didnt see it coming, feel rejected, have to grieve all of those hopes and dreams in the process. think of the millions of songs that have been written about one sided feelings. i certainly felt that way after my breakup.

I feel like most exes, if they're still single long after a breakup, are capable of getting a coffee and assessing the situation, judging the growth or lack thereof. Is such a measured reconciliation possible with a BPD ex?

i think the question is not whether she is capable (she is), but whether or not she is willing.

and beyond that, its whether she shares the feelings you share or sees this as you do.

to see this anywhere close to how she does, you have to try to see this from her perspective.

you broke up over irreconcilable differences, two years ago. she had hard feelings over it at the time. she probably felt rejected, and that you chose other women over her. she slagged you to other people. she was bitter. by now, the ice has probably thawed a bit, and you have some tentative evidence of that, but even if she thinks of you warmly today, that doesnt mean shes prepared to revisit it. a lot of people just arent. it's not necessarily a rejection, or a statement of what someone thinks of someone, but an indication that they have moved on from the past, and dont want to revisit it.

that sounds like the situation you are in. and i know that its a hard one. harder still, you cant make someone want to reconnect, or see things as we do, or want them to, and trying tends to push them away.

does that mean theres nothing you can do? no. but, with your goal in mind, of reconnecting, its important to understand. its the mental shift you would need to successfully reconnect, if the opportunity came.

[Caleb91]

Thank you for another thoughtful reply, "once removed."

This is good advice, and I'll try to shift my perspective to focus on the things I can control, the lessons I've learned so I don't make the same mistake in the next relationship, whether it's with my ex or somebody new.

I pray that my ex is taking account of the many mistakes she made and barriers she built to prevent our relationship from succeeding.

I think what's so painful about this breakup is that nobody fell out of love. When somebody's just not that into you, you lick your wounds and move on. In this case the love and attachment were only getting stronger towards the end, but we both got in our own way. We made mistakes that were preventable and turned down compromises that were reasonable. Still hoping we can lay a new foundation and rebuild.

[Pook075]

I'm curious about how your breakup unfolded. So your wife of 24 years left you, and you spent the next 18 months apologizing and not playing video games. Were you completely iced out during these 18 months, apologizing and making promises into a void, or did you guys continue trying / were there additional breakups after your wife "left" as you say? And where do things stand now, are you permanently broken up, and if so did she ever surface after the final breakup?
 

Hey Caleb.  My wife had feelings for her employer and left suddenly...there was no real drama or tension at home.  She was really depressed for a few weeks beforehand and then simply said she was leaving.  We talked out a few things we could work on, I took everything she said to heart and made immediate changes, while she secretly pursued another man and had no intention of trying to save our marriage.

My wife did briefly come home twice, both times because her family basically shamed her into it.  Her new relationship was a secret so she kept finding new horrible things to say about me, and within a month much of our marriage was completely re-written in her mind.  She was not coming back and I was so emotionally devastated, I couldn't see the plain truth of what was really happening.

At one point, I went to my doctor because I wasn't sleeping and she asked me to describe in detail what happened.  So I did and the doc said it was "textbook BPD behavior", continually saying that my wife was a threat to herself or others.  My oldest daughter has BPD as well so I could read between the lines, my doctor wanted me to have my wife committed.  I chose not to though because of the blow-back I would have received from everyone.

Maybe 6-9 months later, I started really self-reflecting in order to move on and realized that so much of my wife's behavior was unacceptable and not typical in your average marriage.  Other wives didn't come home 3-5 hours late from work every day....or make crazy demands of their husbands when they were in the wrong. My marriage was toxic but appeared "normal" on paper because I never stood up for myself or pushed back at bad behavior.

In other words, a lot was my fault...just not anything my wife was actually saying.  There's no way I could have guessed that this was BPD though since my wife didn't have the blow-out mood swings of my daughter.  The two are completely different at first, but deep down I could finally see the clear patterns.  My kid would scream, my wife would shut down.  It was the exact same thing but it presented differently.  Both were BPD though, my wife's was simply the quiet type.

Shortly thereafter, I filed for no-fault divorce because I didn't want to remain a victim of my own broken heart any longer. I had to move on and heal, which means I had to actually move on and let go of the pain.  I was able to do that by getting active in church, doing volunteer work, and finding myself outside of the marriage.

Whatever you choose, it's an incredibly difficult process.  You can't stay in wait mode forever though, you have to move forward with your own life regardless.

[Caleb91]

Thanks for sharing your story, Pook075. It's inspiring how you moved on, found yourself, and grew your interests and community outside the terrible marriage. I'm also sorry to hear about your daughter's illness and hope that you can get her into the right kind of therapy to set her life on a better path, or at least reduce the mood swings.

A line that struck me was "within a month much of our marriage was completely re-written in her mind"
The rewriting of history, fabrication of stories and theories, has been bizarre and scary.

Maybe this is a different topic worthy of its own thread, or has been discussed already, but do they return to reality? Are the fabrications and inventions just a mechanism to get them through the pain of the breakup and then they eventually remember things as they were, remember the humanity of their partner and maybe even recognize the mistakes they themselves made, or is the bizarre history they've created where you're the worst person ever to live, does remain as their memory?  Is that now gospel?

I ask because, clearly I'm not ready to move on yet, but I can't see any way to reconcile if the bizarre villain stories remain fact in her mind.

[Pook075]

A line that struck me was "within a month much of our marriage was completely re-written in her mind"
The rewriting of history, fabrication of stories and theories, has been bizarre and scary.

Maybe this is a different topic worthy of its own thread, or has been discussed already, but do they return to reality? Are the fabrications and inventions just a mechanism to get them through the pain of the breakup and then they eventually remember things as they were, remember the humanity of their partner and maybe even recognize the mistakes they themselves made, or is the bizarre history they've created where you're the worst person ever to live, does remain as their memory?  Is that now gospel?

I ask because, clearly I'm not ready to move on yet, but I can't see any way to reconcile if the bizarre villain stories remain fact in her mind.

A similar topic that comes up often here is, "Which part of the relationship was real?  The stuff before or the reality of the situation now?"

The honest answer is that it's all real through the lens of a BPD person who can't fully understand the world or even their own emotions.

However, time has a way of healing all and I realized that my words were almost worthless...it was my actions that mattered.  My ex said some truly horrible stuff about me, and most of it was completely untrue.  How I reacted over time made her second-guess a lot of what she said and today we are on good terms.  For instance, we talked this morning over an upcoming birthday party and who would provide what.

One other thing to keep in mind. Someone with BPD could say, "I hate your guts..." and five minutes later say, "I love you with all my heart."  Which is true?  Well, both of them could be in the moment.  It's the emotions behind those words that drive that instability, the second-guessing, the rewriting of events.

Instead of seeing something as a "fact", someone with BPD might see it as a "fact for right now" and have a completely different opinion minutes, weeks, or years later...without anything actually changing.  That's the whole crux of the illness, when they feel abandonment or insecurity, it's very hard to predict what might be said or done.

The reason I'm sharing this in detail is because the bridges that you think are burned could have just been an outburst in the moment.  BPD is a cruel illness since people suffer so much internally, never fully trusting their instincts and always running from something.  It's honestly heartbreaking and I have compassion for both my daughter and my ex wife. 

They're not monsters, they're just sick.

[Caleb91]

Hi Pook075, thanks for your insight. I’m glad to hear that your ex has given you the opportunity to be a standup guy through your actions even in the wake of her smearing you.

What’s been so painful about my breakup is the sudden cutting off and impenetrable stonewall making it impossible to show anything through actions. I’ve spent a lot of time reflecting and know I can clean up my side of the street, as well as be more attuned to her emotional responses thanks to this board, but I don’t have the opportunity to show anything. I hope you’re right about time healing all. I hope you’re right that the facts in her mind might be just “for now.”

I really believe that my ex and I have too much unfinished business and made too many avoidable mistakes on both sides for our story to be over forever. I just pray that she comes back to reality, sees me as a human full of both good and bad, and a person who is able to learn from mistakes.

Whether she will also be able to acknowledge her own mistakes is another question.

[Pook075]

I hope you’re right about time healing all. I hope you’re right that the facts in her mind might be just “for now.”

Your immediate goal is not to prove anything to her, it's to prove it to yourself.  It's to lift yourself up and start healing from the abusive relationship...letting go of your mistakes and forgiving her for hers.  That alone changes both your perspective and how others around you see the person that you are.

To put it another way, in my situation my wife would reference something that happened over 25 years ago...saying it was all my fault.  Long story short, I was washing dishes, she pushed me out of the way, I tripped over the dishwasher door and almost fell.  I responded by saying something not nice, then she picked up a coffee mug and threw it at my head.  A fork came right behind that hitting me in the ear, and I was suddenly livid.  I said, "You want to throw kitchen things?  Okay."  And I started smashing plates on the floor (not throwing them at her though, throwing them straight down). 

We screamed at each other with our young kids in the next room, and I felt horrible about it afterwards.

After we broke up a few years ago, my wife brought this up with her version...how I attacked her in the kitchen for no reason.  And I apologized, even though she attacked me out of nowhere. 

If I wanted to, we could argue about this for the next 30 years over who did what and who's fault it was.  But what's the point?  I know what happened and i forgave her 25+ years ago.  So every time she brought it up, I either ended the conversation or walked away because that's never a topic that can be "solved".  And eventually, I did that with everything from the past that she wanted to argue endlessly about.

The point here is that moving on is your only chance at rekindling the relationship.  Talking about the past only guarantees that there's no path forward.  You can't change who she is or what's happened in the past, but you can work on who you are and how you respond to those types of things in the future.

If you want her to apologize for <whatever>, then you've already lost the battle.  She can't....she won't....until the entire dynamic changes.  And this isn't about fault here either; I definitely had some fault in the story I just shared since I responded horribly.  The past has to be forgiven and let go of regardless.

[DeeplyLovingHer]

Hi there, thanks for sharing and I'm sorry for what you have been through.

I read it all till the end and I can relate very well with much of what you just said.

My ex and I went through an ongoing roller coaster since the beginning.

Everything was super beautiful, but then she left me alone and depressed during the lockdown.

I can understand that since we didn't know each other for a long time, but it was the first time I saw a different look in her face and she made me really sad without even realizing it.

After that the next year she left me completely alone for my birthday to go on holiday with her friends.

Again I was broken inside and I met another girl but I didn't do anything with her cuz I was still in love with my gf.

We went on a trip, and we slept in the same bed for days but I never even kissed her, till the point she called me gay and went out with another guy she met on Tinder :D

The upcoming months were always a push/pull situation, she showed me her love, then disappeared, and many micro breakups, endless arguments, crying, etc...

She was blaming me for many things and she seemed not to realize the sacrifices I was making for her.

Long story short, I became sick and almost mentally impaired due to long covid and brain fog. In this situation ofc I was barely carry out my daily routine and our relationship became worse and worse. She was sometimes blaming me for this, but at the same time tolerates the situation.

It has been very humiliating.

In this situation I started talking with another girl that I liked very much, we met once and kissed a few years ago, but we were living in different countries so she was just like a virtual friend.

Someone I needed to be heard, and understood, and supported.

I felt I was betraying my gf but at the same time I needed her support.

For long time I was about to take a plane and meet her, but eventually, I never showed up and stayed with my ex until that girl found a man and I think they'll get married.

Besides this I want to add that with all these up and downs, push and pull, emotional breakdown, denial, stress, loneliness, etc... even tho my love and attachment for her was growing over time, I felt the need to keep other channels opened for my own mental health.

So you shouldn't really blame yourself for this.

My gf as well last time we broke up left just the email as open channel for communication.

I think that by doing this she can keep her emotion out of sight (not seeing my photo, not seeing me on her whatsapp list, like a more formal and detached way of talking).

In all honesty you are much younger than me, and I would probably just move on if I was you.

But if you are her still talking about her I do understand what you are going through.

My advice is: date other girls, work on yourself, if you really want to give it another shot, do something from time to time, but without expecting anything would happen. If it's gonna happen you will joy (or cry) again, otherwise you'll keep living your life without this person and eventually one day you'll forget about her.

Stay strong my man! Life is hard, but you are harder!!!

[Caleb91]

Hi DeeplyLovingHer,

Thank you for reading my story. Reading your story in the other thread helped me because seeing similar patterns play out with others is a sad but validating experience. I guess that's part of what this board is about, right?

"...seemed not to realize the sacrifices I was making for her..." struck a chord because I felt the same thing. I did some things wrong, but I did lots of things right too and got no credit for it. My ex would only see the mistakes. I could do 9 good things for her and 1 bad thing and only hear about the 1. It was maddening during the relationship, and now so sad to think about how she probably remembers the relationship. I believe that she's rewritten history to paint me as a bad guy who did nothing but bad things to her, and that the countless kind and helpful things I did for over two years to make her happy and make her life better have been completely painted over. I tried so hard and cared so much and I wonder if any part of her knows that. I don't think so.

"Someone I needed to be heard, and understood, and supported."
"I felt I was betraying my gf but at the same time I needed her support."
"I felt the need to keep other channels opened for my own mental health."
All of this hits hard for me because this is exactly how I felt and what I did. Even down to having a "virtual friend" in another country. But hearing that you went through something so similar is comforting in a way. I still know I made mistakes, but maybe this can help me forgive myself a little. We were in impossible positions and no matter how we played our cards would have lost.

But, I'm still sitting at the table waiting for her to come back and deal me another hand. I know it's crazy, and thank you for pushing me to move on. I'm trying.
"if you really want to give it another shot, do something from time to time, but without expecting anything would happen."
This is what I did for over a year, send emails and little gifts to show her I was still there. But I had to stop. I can't keep giving her "guess who I heard from" fodder for her group chat of mean girls. She knows how to reach me, if she ever returns to reality and acknowledges that I wasn't all bad, wasn't even mostly bad. Just a little bad. I'm waiting.

[DeeplyLovingHer]

Yeah, this is exactly how BPD works.
You do 9 things right and 1 wrong, and then you are the devil in their minds!
This is what happened to me as well.
Did many things for her, I've been misjudged, blamed, and accused so many times for every mistake I made.
She rarely took responsibility for her wrongdoings, trying to reverse those on me as well.
When you are not aware of this issue, it simply drives you crazy and sets you up for more and more failures, just to eventually prove to her that you were exactly the bad guy as she always had this doubt in her mind.

One must be very strong and patient, but you need luck as well!
In my situation, everything played against us during these years.

After two months we met -> pandemic and lockdown -> then I got long COVID -> then got vax injured -> then got in a car accident -> then she broke up with me -> got severely depressed and had more neurological issues -> then I had to move abroad  again -> then had to deal with big financial issues, my parent's divorce, chronic stress and health problems -> she left me again -> got back together after a couple of months -> we both decided to start working together on our relationship -> the day after I accidentally shared with her my notes about BPD and my EXes (I had these because I got huge memory issues and I was trying to make order in my mind and life months before when she left me heartbroken) -> FINAL DISCARD -> she blocked me everywhere and don't want to talk with me anymore

[DeeplyLovingHer]

I don't blame her for this, it was a very hard situation to deal with.
I did my best to deal with all these problems, but eventually, I failed.
I wish she could have supported me more, but she stayed anyway and I appreciate that.
Generally speaking, relationships are not easy. Many people fail, even without any correlation with BPD.
The BPD factor is just adding some additional levels of toughness to every regular couple's issues.

[Skip]

I've read a lot on this incredible board and elsewhere and have I've seen both sides: "they always come back if you let them, it's just a matter of time" and "once they're done they're done, especially if you've wronged them." I've read that she was "an illusion" and "never really loved me" and that pwBPD want love and do love, but just get triggered. I've read that I'm a co-dependent who needs to move on, an addict who needs to kick the addiction, and that people who love people with BPD just need to be extremely patient and that it's possible for both people to heal and have a good life together.

For anybody who's read this far, how do you think this plays out? Will I ever be forgiven? If being forgiven continues to be my goal, for better or worse, is remaining withdrawn indefinitely the right course of action or do I need to continue to show an effort even two years into NC?

I wonder when reading your post if she knew you were blocked by text... Can you put a timeline on date of breakup, the gift, her text, and your emails? That would be helpful to see.

"They always come back if you let them, it's just a matter of time" / "Once they're done they're done, especially if you've wronged them."
"They always" is an one dimensional view that are often written based on the a single persons experience and can be overstated. I would try to read these things as tendencies. For example, recycling the relationship is common.

In a poll here we saw that seventy-three percent (73%) of relationships do not end at the first or second break-up. Nine-teen percent (19%) go 20 or more breakups. Twenty percent (20%) go 2 breakups. All these dynamics have profiles like this. Also, we can make some assumptions between the numbers like, there is a cumulative effect in multiple breakups, they are not all the same. Each one damages the relationship.
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=120215.0

"I've read that she was "an illusion" and "never really loved me" and that pwBPD want love and do love, but just get triggered."
The illusion comment is mostly a defense mechanism for grieving partners. pwBPD want love, tend to love most passionately. Their attachment style is typically unresolved, preoccupied, fearful in different mix proportions.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1857277/

Anxious Preoccupied Attachment  Anxious preoccupied attachment is characterised by a strong desire for closeness, coupled with a constant fear of rejection or abandonment. Individuals with this attachment style often seek validation and reassurance from their partners but never seem to feel truly secure in their relationships.

Fearful Avoidant Attachment A person with a fearful avoidant attachment style may fear closeness and appear to seek independence. At the same time, however, someone with a fearful avoidant attachment style may rely heavily on the support of others. It is an insecure attachment style where a person wants to trust others but is afraid to.

Disorganized (Unresolved) Attachment Disorganized attachment is the primary attachment style for those who have survived complex developmental trauma. As an adult, you may vacillate between craving emotional intimacy and avoiding it, feeling safer to be on your own where you won't get hurt.

This data is for clinic al level BPD which is more severe than most of our members partners who are better described as having sub-clinical BPD traits. We don't see 10% of the partners here committing suicide.

"I've read that I'm a co-dependent who needs to move on"
I don't prescribe reading any psychology on Wikipedia as it is mostly junk, but this older wiki article has a good description of co-dependency
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Codependency&oldid=1051814432

Cermak proposed the following criteria for this disorder:[13]

    Continued investment of self-esteem in the ability to control both oneself and others in the face of serious adverse consequences.

    Assumption of responsibility for meeting others' needs to the exclusion of acknowledging one's own.

    Anxiety and boundary distortions relative to intimacy and separation.

    Enmeshment in relationships with personality disordered, chemically dependent, other co‐dependent, or impulse‐disordered individuals.

    Three or more of the following:
        Excessive reliance on denial
        Constriction of emotions (with or without dramatic outbursts)
        Depression
        Hypervigilance
        Compulsions
        Anxiety
        Substance use disorder
        Has been (or is) the victim of recurrent physical or sexual abuse
        Stress-related medical illnesses
        Has remained in a primary relationship with a person who continues to recreationally use drugs for at least two years without seeking outside help.

Do you see yourself in this?

I hope this perspective is helpful.

Your situation sounds like not all is lost. She sounds very fragile.

Skip

[Caleb91]

Hi Skip, I very much appreciate you reading my long story and weighing in. 

I wondered the same thing, when she texted me last summer if she realized I was still blocked. I thought that maybe she thought that by sending a text the block is lifted. But I sent a couple of notes to make sure she understood. Right away I sent an email (I know she gets emails) saying "Why did you text me but not unblock me?" and then a few days later I felt like that was too confrontational (to be honest, I was kind of pissed when I sent that email...I thought after 11 months of NC and all the earnest reflection and apologizing I did she's going to play games?) so I sent a softer email saying "Maybe you didn't realize that you also had to unblock. It was nice to hear from you and I hope you're doing well." She didn't respond and so it's clear to me that she knows she still has me blocked.

Here is a very brief timeline of the breakup and aftermath:

May 2020 - September 2021 - Kind of going on dates but mostly being held at arms length.
October 2021 - The beginning of us trying to date for real. Immediate push/pull, micro-breakups.
December 2021 - Intimate for the first time (her first time ever).
December 2021 - First big breakup. "I'll never speak to you again"
January 2022 - Reconciliation, steps forward.
February 2022 - July 2022 - progressing the relationship, but more conflicts and short breakups.
July 2022 - Second big breakup. "Never contact me again." Blocked.
August 2022 - Unblocked, start talking and get back together.
September 2022 - Ultimatum and final (?) breakup. Blocked.
~~~~~~~
October 2022 - May 2023 - Apology emails, suggestions of couples therapy, gifts and flowers. No response to anything. During this period she learned more about the extent of my relationships with exes, which wasn't great, hence the "when you messed up too" subject of this thread. I heard through the grapevine that she was coming up with some of the most bizarre accusations and rewriting of history to make me out to be not just somebody who screwed up a bit, but the absolute devil.
June 2023 - A final apology email from me. A more thoughtful accounting of everything I did wrong, with the tone of "this is my last email."
August 2023 - The very confusing icebreaker text after 11 months of NC, but still blocked. The two emails from me, "Why'd you text me but not unblock?" and "It was nice to hear from you."
December 2023 - One last "It was nice to hear from you in August...I'm here if you want to speak and hope you're doing well" email.
January 2024 - Present - No more emails from me. Have tried texting a couple of times but am still blocked, so she wouldn't even realize. Some indications from social media posts and music choices that she might be feeling more nostalgic and doesn't seem to really be dating, but that's just reading tea leaves. Of course she has not reached out again.

So Skip, what do you think? Your term "fragile" has always been a perfect word to describe her.

And thank you for sending the breakdown of attachment styles. I'd say she's solidly in the Disorganized category. Very strange and complex traumas, with her caregivers and elsewhere. Deep down she wants intimacy and marriage but has avoided it her whole life, hence me being her first real boyfriend in her late 20s.

Regarding my own co-dependence, this excerpt 100% rings true. I've dated multiple people where I got wrapped up in wanting to help/fix their lives, but nobody who I've given the kind of energy to, whose wellbeing I cared about more deeply, and who's had a grip on me like this ex. Also worth noting that she's in a co-dependent, enmeshed relationship with her own family and mother.

Thank you for your perspective and questions. I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts. 

[Skip]

1. Click bait.
2. Ask a question she can't pass up answering.

Example


I'm thinking about it. Which one would you pick?

[Caleb91]

Ha! Your advice is to out again but with something irresistible like dogs??

[Skip]

It has to fit you and her, but yes, a click bait title and question she can't not want to answer.

If you get a simple response... let it sit.

If you get an engaging response... wait and then go lite and seen if she responds back.

If no immediate response wait.

[Caleb91]

With her disposition do you think I can't just wait for the ice to thaw enough that I hear from her again? She did reach out once, although I can't be positive that wasn't to twist the knife. The tone was a bit ambiguous. But you think I can't just wait for her to make a move? I've tried to reach out and reconcile so many times, in so many ways, as some point I felt like I just had to stop and have some self respect and give her the breakup if she doesn't want me in her life.