2.13 | Do We Use Projection Toward Our BPD Partner?

[crystal]

Street and others,

Man, this gets heavier with each go-around!

Heavier indeed. But I think really useful.  I reflect this discussion on my own actions/inactions, projections, denial, denial of denial, projections of denial and denial of projections.   :D


And either, I am getting some great insights or maybe I am just mirroring... .:evil:

Seriously, this thread has given me lots to think about.

Crystal

[StreetSmart]

Dear CrystaL;

Thanks for reflecting on this discussion regarding your own actions/inactions, projections, denial, denial of denial, projections of denial, and denial of projections. It musta gave ya lots to think about and betcha got great insights!

Sorry, just wanted to try my hand at mirroring just to see what it felt like.

Man, that was REAL easy!  No wonder BPDs can whip this sht out so fast and make it sound so good---'cause WE sound so good!

Thanks (for real) Crystal.


Street

[JMR]

Like so many psychology concepts, the ideas of denial and projection seem complicated and a matter of degree -- I believe that denial and projection are overlapping concepts, and to some extent are exaggerations of what is usually regarded as normal, even especially healthy, behavior. 

By overlapping, I mean this:  projection seems like a more complicated defense, which always includes denial, where denial does not necessarily include projection.  When somebody projects their emotions, they are denying 1) their own emotions and 2) the actual emotions of the other person, and also attributing their emotions to somebody else. Denial is simpler, and just involves pretending (and believing) that something isn't true, despite clear evidence that it is. 

Most nons clearly engage in denial by, for example, denying such things as abuse, and even denying their own feelings of anger and hurt.  Projection seems less common, but it seems to occur, for example, when nons feel "unacceptable" emotions (like anger or rage) and attribute them to a partner to avoid having to face them. More often, nons imagine that a BPD partner feels "love" for them, because the non is feeling love and wants to feel loved in return. But again, engaging in this "projection" also involves denial -- denial of how the BPD's actions are not consistent with love, and oftentimes denial of the non's own feelings, which may not really be love but dependence, need, and similar things.

But it seems to me that something like "projection" is also envolved in empathy.  When we try to understand someone else's emotions, we imagine how we would feel in a similar situation, and then hypothesize that they are feeling the same way. It's a good thing except when it turns into denial and projection, and groundless hypotheses replace the obvious facts in our minds.

[lennic]

But it seems to me that something like "projection" is also envolved in empathy.  When we try to understand someone else's emotions, we imagine how we would feel in a similar situation, and then hypothesize that they are feeling the same way. It's a good thing except when it turns into denial and projection, and groundless hypotheses replace the obvious facts in our minds.

I respectfully disagree JMR with the above.

Evolved emotions like empathy, mercy, charity and selfless love are matters of genuine expression. In their true form they have no sense of expectaion... they are given freely,without concern for justice or appreciation. If you have them... .they just are.

IMHO.

Lenny

[JMR]

I'm not sure I understand you, lennic, because I wasn't meaning to imply any sense of expectation in my discussion. Maybe I didn't draw a sharp enough distinction between projection and empathy.

My understanding is that empathy is a learned emotion (though learned fairly young), in which a child comes to anticipate the emotions of others, by remembering the child's own experience.  For example, if a child is afraid standing at the edge of a tall projection, when he/she later sees someone else standing in that spot, the child remembers the feeling and understands that the other person might feel fear, as well.  This doesn't, to me, involve any sense of justice, appreciation or expectation.  It does, I guess, involve the assumption that people and experieces are more-or-less the same.

In comparing this process to projection, my point was that something sorta similar occurs, or at least similar mental processes are involved.  We assume people are pretty much the same, and imagine what they might be feeling.  I do agree, though, that if we simply imagine they feel what we want them to feel, it becomes something very different from empathy.

[StreetSmart]

Dear Lennic, JMR:

Very thought provoking and masterful handling of this most tortuous process of peeling away the layers of defenses we as Nons use vs. BPDs use! Bravo to you both!


StressedinCleveland: How did you make the letters come out purple colored? 



Street

[JMR]

Thanks, Street.  I might add to the point I was trying to make that many of us run into a problem with the assumption that people are more-or-less the same.  It's true as a general rule, but like all general rules there are exceptions.  We might mistakenly "empathize" and assume someone is feeling something because we would in a similar situation, when their emotions are somewhat different from the norm.  In my example, the child might mistakenly believe someone is afraid of heights when in reality they just don't have that fear, for example. Carrying it further, I guess the child might conclude (if the person was especially important in their lives) that there was something wrong with himself.

[bilbo82801]

I just got onto this board, so here's my 2 cents worth, which doesn't exactly fit the thread, but... .

I'm certain that I project, but I became aware of that years ago and seem to be conscious of it when I do it. I make a concerted effort not to do that. It was one of the most maddening things when I started looking at her behavior. I was afraid that I was projecting and didn't want to go there.

A place where I notice it in a huge measure is the way she and I talk about people. I tend to look favorably on people. She, on the other hand, sees faults. When she does have something good to say about someone, I wonder to myself when the shine will wear off and the comments will be negative.

I know, being the codependent type, that I used to see everyone else as having their act together while I saw myself as hugely flawed. I guess BPDs have the opposite perspective?

[StreetSmart]

Thanks for sharing billbo82801:

I think you raise good points about the essential differences between us and our BPDso's. 

We tend to project a hopefull/positive spin for the most part. Because of their often tremendous anxiety they project the dark spin.

Thus, we can both look at the same thing and see it in a 180% polar opposites. How can ya have an extended quality relationship with that degree of emotional discrepancy.


Ya Can't, That's How!


Street

[lennic]

I am sorry it has taken some time to respond to your thought JMR... Your points are complex and I had to think on them.

I think that what you propose is valid to the process that you have considered. I think much of what we create in our consciousness is compare and contrast bioelectrical processing.

However, as I go through my time here on this little sphere, I have observed some interesting aspects of base emotions that don't fit any particular mind set that I know of.

I have four children. One of my boys from the moment his personal identity was formed has been kind and mercifull. He was always gentle about his interfaces with his world in act and expression. He still is at 23 though some of his experiences could have put some sharp edges on his view of our universe,,he has still chosen the path of gentle association. My other three children have some similar character aspects but are not nearly as profound as my oldest son.

As a man who has also been surrounded by animals in his life, I have also noted some souls in that kingdom that just have a softness about them that defies explanation through experience. I had a dog named Connery for example, that I believe would have cried, if he could, had he had stepped upon an insect and took it's life. I believe this with all my heart. I have also had dogs that would dance the happy dance upon anything that moved and be joyfull in their power to exterminate.

When a person feels empathy towards another, who's pain or potential pain is being felt? Is is an act of conscience based upon the concepts of moral and ethical justice or is it a feeling associated with genuine love for the living?

When I am kind is it because I have expectations for kindness in return or that kindness is correct? Or am I kind because I am?

When I choose mercy and charity over contempt or resentment is it because my expereince tells me this is the better way or is it like the young toddler who tentatively shares his toy with the little girl alone in the corner because he "feels" some need to?

It is my humblest of opinions that will probably never be conclusive in my mind at least, that there are aspects to us as living creatures that are embeded upon our "souls"... for lack of a more precise term.

There are some creatures that are just this way... I don't know why.

But in your example, I will concur that contrast and comparison are implicit processes for choosing a response. The label upon such a process certainly could be projection.

Lenny