7.02 | Forgiveness

[schnitzel]

Well- I think what Alice Miller was saying, is that WE have to work on ourselves, a LOT, to get to the point of moving on. But "moving on" is true, Ave.

The next move is theirs.

This is not moving on. When we keep expecting that the disfunctional people in our lives will have changed and have seen the light, and our love and forgiveness and generosity will have healed them, then we are continuously hoping for something that wont happen, and is bad for us.

That is secretly harboring the belief that love heals all. It goes hand in hand with the child who says "If I am only good enough, then Mommy will love me". I had a BPD mother and no matter how good I was, she couldnt love me. That set me out on a lifetime quest of trying to find how I could behave to get people to love me, giving and then giving more, turning myself into a pretzel for them, instead of being able to just be myself.

[Ave Marina]

I believe that forgiveness is the key to our emotional survial. Carrying a grievence in your heart can destroy you mentally and physically. I pray each day the Lords Prayer. Sometimes several times a day. "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those that trespass against us."  When we can't forgive, it can make us angry and depressed. This will affect everyone and everything  around you. That's when stress related illness set in. Your body is reacting to this with as example, heart disease, migraines, In my religion we are taught that the inability to forgive, cuts us off from God. When we can frogive we are at one again with God, and can experience true peace. Forgiving doesn't always mean forgetting. I can now reflect as opposd to not forgetting. I will never forget the cruelness and emotional battering I endured from ":)." I can reflect back, and it is no longer painful. I thank God every day for delivering me from this terrible relationship. I also pray a brief prayer for him everyday that he is in a good place and getting good care. I know too tht he won't be drinking. I pray for God to grant him peace. That has helped me to heal and to experience peace.

Ave

[dominique f.]

Even though I think I've been doing well in my Disengaging, I keep running up against this mental road block... .I still think about exBPbf, though I've gotten much better about realizing why I'm thinking about him, either because I'm filtering all the awfulness and only thinking of the sporadic good times, or whatever.  But I keep thinking about this forgiveness concept. 

I feel like I've done a lot of work to see him for who he truly is rather than the mentally healthy guy I tried to make myself believe he is. But I have this core of hurt in me which I'm having a difficult time dissolving.  I've read about forgiveness and listened to some talks about it, and I'm wondering if I can forgive him... .when I think about it, I get upset, thinking "how can I let him off the hook for all the BS he served up?"  Even though I have no plan to actually verbally tell him I forgive him... .this forgiveness stuff would truly just be for me, part of my healing.  And, I also I worry that if I can reach a point of forgiving him, I will be left feeling that I want to be with him again, having forgiven him... .

I'm confused on this subject and I'm really interested to hear what others think about this... .the concept of forgiveness, the process, your opinions... .thanks.

[blowinNdawind]

Dominique,

First, congratulations on doing well in disengaging. That's a good thing. I completely relate to you on this forgiveness "thing". I, too, hit that mental roadblock, thinking there is no way she is getting off the hook, considering all the awful things she has said and done to me. I spent a lot of days agonizing over it. Like you, I felt the pain in my soul would never go away, ever. Then one day, I realized that in order for me to heal, I needed to give myself permission and let her off the hook, not for her sake but for mine. Still it was hard because that part of me that was still angry over the hurt wanted retribution. But, deep within, I knew for me to get ever closer to the peacefulness I sought - forgiveness would be key. So, first, I forgave myself for giving away my power to be me by compromising myself into absolute nothingness and beyond. This allowed my anger to dissipate. I was more angry with myself than I was ever angry with the ex. After forgiving myself, I was able to go to the next step and forgive the ex. Mind you, my forgiveness of her behavior neither grants her absolution nor does it negate my memories of how her behavior felt to me. Maya Angelou stated and I am paraphrasing here, "You can forgive a persons actions against you, but you'll never forget how they made you feel." For me that is the rub, I forgive her, but will not forget the feelings I experience as a direct result of her behavior towards me. I lost my self respect, dignity and power. I lost me. It was a horrible experience, a place that I need not ever revisit. And that keeps me from ever wanting her in my life again. I hope this is helpful.

Be well,

I was once blowinNdawind

but am now

standinfirmNmyconvictions

[paul16]

I'm not in total agreement. While I don't know if I could forgive my ex's actions for any reason, the point is moot because no one, not her, her relatives, or anyone, has asked me to. I've received a lot of comiseration about what was done to me but nobody has suggested that I forgive my ex. And my ex doesn't even admit to any wrong doing so asking for forgiveness isn't something I'm expecting.

I'm not a religious man. I understand that in Christianity, you will be forgiven for your mortal sins by Christ. I think too many religious people use that as an excuse. They can behave however and all will be forgiven. Not by me, however. I am not Christ or anyone else capable or forgiving sinners. I guess just a mere mortal.

And this said on a Sunday!

[foiles]

First, congratulations on making it to this stage of your healing.  You have made great strides to even fathom forgiving someone who has abused you.  Anger and grief have their place, absolutely necessary steps to get to healing, but at some point, you have to get past it.  Or you will remain stuck there.  I didn't want to remain stuck there.

According to my dictionary, paraphrased, - To forgive is to "Stop feeling angry or resentful for an offense or to cancel a debt."

To forgive is something you do, not the person you are forgiving.  It doesn't really matter if they ask or not.  Now, someone can ask for forgiveness, but, as you said, forgiving not only benefits the other person (if they've asked for forgiveness), but mostly it benefits the person forgiving, especially in the Nons case.

According to the dictionary definition, and they are both definitions I have read in several books concerning forgiveness, once you have forgiven, you no longer feel angry or resentful or offended or think about how they should make it up to you.  How can this be bad?  It only benefits us and I believe is key to completing the healing process.  You haven't healed if you are still obsessed with anger or resentment or feelings of offense.  That never made me happy, no matter who the person was or what the offense was.  When I didn't forgive (and I had a very hard time forgiving) it was like I was holding their offenses over their head saying "I will never forgive you!  I will hold this in my head as a testament to your horribleness forever!".  But who was it harming?  Only me.  The negative vibes were toxic and only made me obsess over the situation even more. 

If it is used by some as an excuse for bad behavior, that is their problem, not yours.  I definitely understand paul16's viewpoint because my exBPDbf was very religious, and he would often ask for forgiveness from God, while stating in his prayer "Lord, I know you forgive our sins, and throw them as far as the east is from the west.  Thank you for forgiving me."  And then he would turn around, and sometimes, almost immediately do the exact thing he was asking for forgiveness for.  It was ridiculous.  Also, I am sure my ex thinks (and he has said this) that I need to ask for forgiveness from him.  When I was a pile or groveling dust, he loved it.  I was 'humbling' myself... .No I wasn't!  I was a floor mat.  I was saying that it was ok for him to abuse me.  He perverted the meaning of forgiveness to suit his BPDishness. 

Forgiving is NOT reconciliation.  Reconciliation is when you can coexist in harmony.  Reconciliation is impossible in most cases of a Non-BPD break-up.  -Because in most cases they don't genuinely regret, take responsibility, make restitution, repent (never do it again), and most of the time they don't even ask for forgiveness- those are all things that a true apology consists of (The Five Languages of Apology, G. Chapman and J. Thomas) In fact, they do the exact opposite, even when trying to apologize, "I'm sorry (if they even get this far), BUT you... .:"  That's excuses and deflecting blame on to someone else. 

Then there is the old Forgive and Forget.  I can't forget-how can we; we can't erase our minds.  But what I have forgotten is my knee-jerk,

very strong obsessive emotions related to him.  They're gone.  Oh, occasionally, memories come in my mind, but I neither have extreme anger or love or feelings of missing him or the relationship.  But once I recognize that I'm even thinking about him, I can now shake it off very easily and be happy the rest of my day.  My emotional memory has forgotten how to react to him in the same way.  Forgotten to feel those things for him.  It takes awhile because your brain plays the tapes it knows until it has new tapes.  It takes while but it happens if you work at it.

For me, it came down to acceptance.  It is what it is and it was what it was.  What can I do to improve it?  I don't give it my emotional energy.  It's a mental illness that he could or couldn't change and didn't.  I don't want to be any part of it so I'm not anymore.  I stayed in the relationship when I knew it was unhealthy.  Oh well.  It happened and I'm not going to give anymore of myself to it than I absolutely have to.  I don't feel resentful towards him.  I don't feel obligated.  And I don't feel romantic 'love' anymore. 

And as blowinNdawind said, I don't forget that at one time I did have those horrible feelings, I just don't have them anymore.  And the good things?  The things that made me want him?  I recognize them for what they were.  Not love, just intense emotions and need, his and mine.  If it wasn't love, and the 'good' times were filled with anticipated misery, I don't want it.  Not any more. I filled my void with self-love.  I wish he could do that for himself.  But I'm not going to stick around to see if it happens-it won't.  Not to the extent I need to remain in the relationship.

I think the more you fill yourself with self love, the more you can forgive.  I'd like to suggest "The Mastery of Love" by Don Miguel Ruiz.  It is amazing and did a lot for me in this process. 

Take care.

[paul16]

I have managed to get through a tough time and bad relationship without forgiving my exgf.

I think we must honor the past, and remember and learn from the experiences, but serve our future.

In my future I harbor no ill will towards my ex, even though she is a sociopath that inflicted much pain and suffering to innocent people. The forgiveness is me forgiving myself for allowing that to happen and not seeing it sooner and putting a stop to it.

[kitkat]

I loved the explanation Foiles gave.  Very insightful.

The only thing I would add - from my own perspective - is that I don't think we make a conscious choice to forgive and just decide we're going to do it.  To me, I've always thought it will be something that will just happen on it's own - when it's time.  Right now, I'm still going through some anger and resentment so I'm not at a point to forgive him as I'm still working on myself.  But I think once I've overcome those obstacles, the forgiveness will just be an automatic thing because in my mind - he will no longer have a hold on my emotions and I will be able to let it go and with that comes forgiveness.

[mtn]

How about this?

Don't worry about forgiving the ex for now.  In fact, try to worry less... .try to enjoy life... .even more. 

Maybe in the future, you can decide if you want to think about forgiveness... .whether it *is* part of your healing.  My guess is... .the forgiveness thing come later, maybe at the end of healing. 

I do like the notion of forgiving ourselves.  We're human.  We make mistakes.  We choose poorly sometimes.  Its a part of life and we are just true to our human selves by screwing up now and then (fortunately, NPDs are true to themselves and never make mistakes    ).

So... .perhaps... .you are looking ahead a bit.  The forgiveness thing... .you can decide later.  And you know now, your decision making power is getting better... .when you have more info at hand.

Stay well.

[Skip]

Forgiveness was important to me.

At the time, I thought it was for her.  Looking back, I can see how it was for me.

For me, forgiving was a way of saying "you have unequivocally abused me"

Forgiving was a way of moving forward "I don't want to spend my emotions being angry at you - ruminating about it - searching for some justice"

Forgiving was acknowledgment that she is ill.  Accountable, but fighting her own demons none the less.

Forgiving was disconnecting from her world that had no forgiveness for anyone.

Forgiving fit with my beliefs.

Forgiving was not putting all the blame on her - while she was 80% of the problem, I was still 20% (example % only) and I needed to look at my part.

Many can't forgive - and I understand that too - they may have experienced greater injury or their pathway to recovery is different.

You sound as if you don't know yet.  It's OK. It will come in time.  If you do forgive you may find eventually that you have empathy for him.  You may second guess leaving.  I second guessed it many times - but each time I reasoned through "why" I gained more insight and became more comfortable with it. 

They say the opposite of love is apathy.  It's a long journey to apathy.

Hold on to yourself.

Skippy

[Aussie John]

Antichrist keeps saying I shouldn't take all the abuse "personally". All the books say that as well.

I am sorry, I do take it personally.

Failing to "forgive" gives me the strength to remember all the hurt and sufferance of her BPD.

It helps me stay NC where/when ever possible.

It helps me ward of contact and when actually speaking to her and hearing her BS.

Forgiveness is for whatever god they worship to dish out.

[foiles]

There clearly are a lot of different definitions of what forgiveness means to different people.  I definitely believe that if you are still tempted, anger holds an extremely useful purpose in keeping us away, seeing past the FOG, and recognizing that the blame they spew at us is exaggerated and not reality. 

Forgiveness for me did come as the anger and sadness dissipated.  It was the final stage for me to be able to move on and really start to enjoy my life again, I mean really enjoy it, where the clouds and birds gave me a lift just looking at them.  Where finally I had PEACE.  Where, as Skip said, I was disconnected from his 'world', emotionally.  Forgiveness didn't mean that what he did was OK, and I should second guess myself, but the only 'feelings' I had about it was that I didn't want to repeat the process.  So as much as possible, any energy I spent went to me and how I could change.   It's really hard to come to that place where you don't condone what they did, they do make life hell for others, but yet you forgive them.  It's not an easy concept.  They're sick.  But I don't feel 'sorry' for him because he could make his life better.  I forgave him, but I don't feel sorry for him. 

Kitkat, I think it can come naturally, if you let it.  Although some may not have to make forgiveness a conscious choice, I did.  Maybe it would have come naturally in the end for me, I don't know.  But I wanted to get past this crap, as soon as possible.  I could only push it so far, and realized that I had to 'work through things' and not skip steps I needed to take, but at various points, I searched for ways to forgive and in the end I could.  On the other hand, maybe if you fight it or don't want it, it won't come as quickly, or at all.  I don't want to offend anyone so I would like to say, well for some maybe it isn't important, but I can't say that because I want everyone here to be able to feel the peace and how great it is when you can forgive.  Maybe some don't use the word forgive, but in the end it turns out to be the same thing. Don't know.

This is just me, but, I know for myself, when I started dating post-BPD, I didn't want to date someone that still had intense feelings of anger for their ex, whether they were BPD or not.  The exBPDbf was angry enough!  I had had enough anger for a lifetime. I wanted someone that actively searched for peace in their life and were willing to look at things from many different angles and be open to new ways of thinking that would enhance a relationship.  For me, forgiveness is part of that. 

[Skip]

Kubler-Ross named five stages of grief people go through following a serious loss. According to her "Sometimes people get stuck in one of the first four stages. Their lives can be painful until they move to the fifth stage - acceptance."  We've all seen people that are stuck - its not pretty.

But it goes on to say ":)uring grief, it is common to have many conflicting feelings. Sorrow, anger, loneliness, sadness, shame, anxiety, and guilt often accompany serious losses. Having so many strong feelings can be very stressful.

Yet denying the feelings, and failing to work through the five stages of grief, is harder on the body and mind than going through them. When people suggest "looking on the bright side," or other ways of cutting off difficult feelings, the grieving person may feel pressured to hide or deny these emotions. Then it will take longer for healing to take place." So denying the feelings doesn't work.

There is a balance here and a process to go through to achieve it... .and it takes time.

Skippy



Kubler-Ross named five stages of grief

Denial and Isolation.

      At first, we tend to deny the loss has taken place, and may withdraw from our usual social contacts. This stage may last a few moments, or longer.

Anger.

The grieving person may then be furious at the person who inflicted the hurt (even if she's dead), or at the world, for letting it happen. He may be angry with himself for letting the event take place, even if, realistically, nothing could have stopped it.

Bargaining.

Now the grieving person may make bargains with God, asking, "If I do this, will you take away the loss?"

Depression.

     

The person feels numb, although anger and sadness may remain underneath.

Acceptance.

     

This is when the anger, sadness and mourning have tapered off. The person simply accepts the reality of the loss.

[pianolady]

I believe that forgiveness is about taking your hands from around someones neck.

Whilst there is a time when forgiveness is hard  and even not appropriate for your own healing, there will also be a time and place where you cannot let your stranglehold consume your life.

Hugs

Piano xxx

[dominique f.]

Thank you to everyone who's responded, you've all given me some excellent things to think about.

I really don't know how to handle this though I realize the answer probably is "don't" and just let it... .happen.  For me, it was four years with exBPbf, and the relationship was pretty much spot-on what is described in all the BP literature you read.  I was absolutely stunned the first time I found those descriptions and began to realize what I was really up against.

Even though I'm glad I have the insight I do, it sometimes confuses my feelings so much. I mean, I think to myself that yeah, I feel pretty awful and down and hurt at moments as I'm going through this... .but truly, that's how a BP *lives*, every day. That's the lens they view the world through, those types of feelings. And my god, that sucks. So I get caught between compassion and empathy -vs- feeling hurt that he put me through so much crap, which I do think he sometimes realized and sometimes didn't.

I feel like I'm waiting for something right now, but I don't know what.  Does anyone understand that at all?  It's like... .I understand what "it" was now, he and I, but I can't "order" it in my mind somehow. I both can and cannot understand why someone would behave as he does and yet I realize understanding has very little to do with a BP's world. I think being with me was just as painful for him and being with him was for me.  I love logic and understanding and self-improving pursuits like exercise and eating well... .all of that was killing him inside, I think, a constant indictment of him to himself vis a vis me and who I try to be in life. One of the clearest things he ever said to me was that he felt I was trying to make him into someone he isn't. My answer was that I wanted him to be healthy and who wouldn't want that? Indeed, that may be exactly the point.

So I think forgiveness is healthy. But right now it's eluding me. Maybe someday, I hope. Writing this might've gotten me closer to it though.

[foiles]

but I can't "order" it in my mind somehow

I'm not sure what you are waiting for... .  Are you still waiting for logic?  For order? 

They are disordered.  - order vs. disorder.  Their thinking lacks order.  So how can we find it when it's not there?   And they twist what little is ordered to make it fit what they perceive to be their needs.  They have faulty reasoning abilities because it is clouded with so much emotion.  They stretch reality to fit the facts to the emotion rather than the emotion to the facts.  They don't have regular emotions or the ability to think through them.  It justs builds on itself, not what is actually happening.   Emotional disregulation. 

Puzzle pieces that they break to fit, leaving unused leftovers, or put two wrong ones side by side leaving gaps between them.  "See, this fits!" and they ignore the parts they have broken off and the gaps.  When we say "Look, there are broken pieces you haven't used and gaps in-between the others."  They just use emotion back-get mad because we tried to point out the errors in reasoning.  They just feel we 'ruined' their puzzle.  And just try to force others in. 

Maybe you're waiting until you can just come to acceptance of the disorder.  It was very difficult for me.  I think i happened when I just didn't care anymore. 

[Davestl]

I just discovered this site this evening. I had a horribly painful break-up with a BPDexgf that lasted over 5 months (before I had ever heard of "re-engaging". I just wanted to say how AMAZING it is to learn that there are other people out there who understand what I went through. My family, as supportive as they were, couldn't quite understand what I was going through and how horrible it was.

Thank you all, from the bottom of my heart

[LAPDR]

dominique, you have gotten some excellent thought provokers here and the only thing I can add is maybe some of the issue is can you forgive yourself? I know part of what used to get under me was the anger I had at myself for letting my partner do what she did to me and that I let her do it for so long. Forgiving myself for what I let happen to myself helped a lot getting towards acceptance of the whole 9 yards.

[dominique f.]

Hmmm.

I think I haven't forgiven myself, no.  Because looking back, I realize that a lot of the reason that I kept getting back into it with him despite his behavior was how afraid I was that maybe he was the "best" and that I'd be giving up on what seemed like the potential for great passion (sounds kind of lame but exBPbf did use the "we fight because of the passion" line once).  I'm mad at myself for all the chances I gave the relationship, all the hope I put into it, all the times I got so incredibly upset and my friends and family were in the position of thinking "here she goes again" because they saw him for what he is, basically.

Foiles, I keep re-reading your posts. You mention forgetting the strong obsessive emotions. It took me a long time to admit to myself that that is exactly what they are. I hate that I have them, it makes me feel like there is something wrong with me. I think I've gotten better about it though. Because like you said, I have definite moments now when I'm just so sick of it all that I don't want to think about it.

I think about all of this because I really, really don't want to bring it with me into a new relationship, someday.  And I do want a new relationship, though I admit I get scared about when or how that will ever happen.  I think I'm capable of a really good relationship and it's frustrating to feel that this potential was so wasted on BP.

[Ripples]

Genuine forgiveness can only come once a person has healed. If they have healed following abuse on any level then forgiveness shouldnt be required because we should be able to understand that the abusers are mentally ill and they wouldnt understand anyway! Forgiveness in this instance must be about ourselves as pointed out by others here. I agree with them - I think.  ?

[schwing]

Hi all,

There are a lot of great posts here.  I think this is a crucial issue in our recovery as nons.  Here are my 2 bits on the topic.

I was desperate to forgive my xuBPDgf.  Probably because I was desperate to be over the whole ordeal.  It was done, and I wanted to be done with it and move on.  In fact, I recall leaving her a voice mail telling her "I forgive you."  Which was quite silly in retrospect because it wasn't until many months or over a year after that that I felt the full breadth of my hatred and anger towards her.

Then I realized I was in no position to forgive her.  I think part of the reason why it took so long was I was in such denial about how much she had hurt me, and how much I had injured myself by allowing her to hurt me.  Anger and hatred were a response to the pain.  There were many, many occasions during the relationships when I SHOULD have been angry and hurt but denied it.  And so that pain was only deferred until I was ready to face it.  And that pain eventually taught me how I should never allow myself to be neglected as such again.

And I think when I finally got to a point when I could trust myself to not allow that to happen again, then I began to forgive myself; because without that pain as a reminder, I could have very easily returned to a similar situation although with different people.  And after forgiving myself, I felt I could let go of the anger because I didn't need it anymore; and to hold on to it past that point would just hurt me.

I don't think my xuBPDgf has ever or will ever care if I forgive her or not.  She probably cannot grasp the idea anymore than she can love, or trust.  Her mental illness precludes her from these reflections.  The forgiveness is for myself.  And after that apathy is within grasp.  And apathy towards your exBPD is probably the best goal IMHO.

Schwing

[ozzy]

I would echo others here as well in that "forgiveness" suggests some slight has been done to you.

Forgiving ourselves is important because deep down we knew better, despite all of the reasons we chose to subject ourselves to it, we knew it was wrong.

To forgive them means to give them more credit then they deserve.

[Aussie John]

I would echo others here as well in that "forgiveness" suggests some slight has been done to you.

Forgiving ourselves is important because deep down we knew better, despite all of the reasons we chose to subject ourselves to it, we knew it was wrong.

To forgive them means to give them more credit then they deserve.

top marks for that reply.

we subjected ourselves to there bs

[flyingsolo]

I feel as though I HAVE forgiven him, but he hasn't forgiven me! And I did nothing wrong. I assume that he did not forgive me for leaving, but I am coming to the conclusion that his forgiveness will never come, being part of the syndrome. He has painted me black.

But you are right: once we feel forgiveness, it helps us, inside.

But even when we do reach the point of forgiveness for real infractions, they won't forgive us for imagined ones.

[Ripples]

"One forgives to the degree that one loves"

[QMStrength]

What I've learned is that I can't forgive my husband for one of many things that he's done.  The moment that he put his hand up to hit me is the unforgivable act.  Most of the other things I can put behind me, but this one thing angered me so much and hurt me so much that I just can't, and I'm not willing, to forgive.

[paul16]

If you "forgive" them doesn't that open a door for them? Mine did things that are unforgivable and she won't take ownership of any of them. They were all something or somebody else's fault.

[LAPDR]

Forgiving them doesn't mean you have to express it to them directly but for your own solitude of feelings.

[paul16]

Speaking for myself, I would find no comfort or solitude in forgiving the unforgivable. It wouldn't matter who it was expressed to.

Divine I'm not. Sue me.

[flyingsolo]

I think I have forgiven him as a way to free me up from any lingering strong feelings. He never hit me, so I don't know what I would do regarding that: he just did the usual screaming, cursing, raging, silent treatment, make dates and not show up, accuse me of every possible wrongdoing, demean me, correct me, insult me, etc...

I mentioned the irony that he is angry/not-forgiving of me, yet I did not do anything bad to him. So I figure that THAT is the difference between being bp and not--I am, reasonably, mentally healthy and he is seriously disturbed.

I can understand how, if the bp did really bad things to you, that you would not forgive him/her. But I think I read somewhere that forgiving helps you to move past stuff.

I had to forgive myself for allowing myself to get into the relationship, despite the countless red flags. That forgiving was as difficult as forgiving him was! I lost another, very loving, RICH guy by choosing to go with the BPD guy, besides losing some respect from my adult children.

So, yeah, forgiving is important, in several directions.     8)