BPD - Are they really aware of their behaviour?

[mattdj]

I have something for your consideration. My ex partner certainly would qualify for just about everything I have read in regards to BPD. She had all the red flags and I certainly could relate to all the questions on www-page-not-found-net and amazing similarities in behaviour on this forum. What I am trying to differentiate it the actual "consciousness" or awareness they have of their behaviour. Many people state that a diagnosed BPD is unconsciously aware of their destructive behaviour. I would like to challenge such thinking because the structure of manipulation that a BPD can achieve can be remarkable. I mean I hear stories that many Therapists won’t even engage will treatment because of that very reason. So will one ever really know if the BPD is aware of their behaviour? I suspected and later had verified that my ex partner had cheated. So her behaviours many have just been for that reason and she could have been completely aware of her sabotage like behaviour. When I read more about the illness I tend to fall back in a pity line for her thinking that she is unaware of her behaviour. It’s kind of like pleading insanity in front of a judge. But the more I reflect back on her actions (which many people on this forum share) I am not convinced that she was not aware of her actions and behaviour. Furthermore it may explain their reluctance to be in denial that they have any issues because they know what they are doing and find it easier to blame then take accountability. This could just be immaturity or the actions of not a very nice person. Any thoughts?

[Patty]

Mattdj

Very good question!  I personally think that they do know what they are doing. 

My uBPD mother knew who to rage in front of and who to hide her behavior from.  She could start it and stop it to, with ease.  My uBPD sister chooses very carefully who to lie about and when to do it and cleverly knows how to cover things up.   So that awareness and ability to hide it indicates to me that they know exactly what they are doing. 

[wizeone]

When I was really bad, in all honesty, I knew that normal people didnt behave in the manner that I ws behaving, and the crap and bullsht that I put on other people was more a result of my internal bs than anything they had done.


Are they aware of their behavoir? Quite possibly, however I think many of them under estimate the impact that it has on the people around them. Hell I know I did

[Patty]

Wizeone

I really admire your courage and it is good to get your perspective.  I take it from your response that you may have BPD but do correct me if I am wrong. 

Just in case you don't know already, there is a recovery board for sufferers of BPD called Resouces for Individuals with BPD 


Patty

[Powder]

I think most of the time they do and then I believe they can get so out of touch with reality/or orbit out (rage, childlike temper tandrum, or any kind or pressure) that they can convince themselves that they are being violated against and have not done anything wrong.

I really do believe this and I wonder if that is why they can re-engagement for so long and then come back and out act again.  I have play games back just to see if he knew what he was doing and he was well aware of it and it was a form of control. He even admitted it.

My answer yes.

[taralita]

I have been thinking this as well as it relates to my boyfriend who is diagnosed, with bipolar as well, and who engages in therapy and is therefore addressing things.  In other words, he KNOWS he has some issues which have certain manifestations. 

This is my possible theory... .since BPD is a disorder of intimacy, it perhaps may seem like they can turn it on or off because they behave well towards certain people, but if they were intimate with those people... family, loved one, close work relationship... .then these things would come out without their full awareness because the intimacy is what triggers it all.  Just a guess.  I am learning too here, but this is one I have been trying to understand.

I have boiled it down in my mind to a lack of emotional discipline.  I have a six year old and it is amazing to me that the challenges in addressing emotions in him really is similar to those of my boyfriend and my boyfriend's sister too, who is also diagnosed.  It is like everyone is needing to learn the same lessons in spite of the tremendous age differences.  In my son it is age appropriate, in the boyfriend, not so much and I am left wondering... .my goodness, what is he just not understanding here about basic ways to treat people?

Just some thoughts.  Undercaffeinated ones at that!

[Patty]

Taralita, you have raised a good point here about intimacy triggering their behavior.  I also think that BPs assume intimacy gives them certain rights, i.e to abuse etc and that they should be allowed to get away with it.  They don't seem to be able to respect those close to them. 

[veryconfused]

I have two perspectives.  One as a therapist and one as an ex-partner of a BPD.

As a therapist, I hated to work with BPD clients.  The females (the males were always diagnosed with Narcisstic PD-Such a sexist society)! were so "unhuman."  The amount of pain and destruction these clients caused to family and partners... .it was unbelievable.  All my therapist mentors taught me to put strict boundaries on my BPD clients and not to fall into any of their manipulativeness.  Needless to say, I never really felt like I knew how to counsel someone with BPD----and I don't think many therapists have a clue from the seminars and classes I have attended--this in itself is tragic and sad, but it is the truth!

With that said, I never understood that there are different types of people with BPD.  Just like someone can have a very mild case of depression as oppossed to someone else having a debilitating case of depression, BPD's can be very high functioning or low functioning and somewhere in between.  I never knew this or thought about it.  The clients I worked with were all low functioning--very manipulative, hardly functional in that they took risks that could most definately get them killed, cutting, suidical... .  The girl I fell in love with seemed to be everything great (too good to be true!) At first everything was great but then things started to get confusing and not make sense.  Are they aware of their lies or manipulation?  I think it really depends on their level of functioning, THE MOOD THEY ARE IN, and the level of intimacy that starts to trigger them.  I believe my former partner really thought she loved me in the beginning.  I believe we were intimate but once it got too intimate for her---she started acting bizarre and seemingly lying.  She couldn't remember falling in love with me or remember how she felt about me--they can't (CAN NOT) love anyone as a whole or consistently.  They are in the moment and when our initmacy got too much (they can't handle intimacy--they want it soo much but fear it more) she started to dissociate and I became the "bad" one and therefore she could lie to me and it didn't matter that I was hurt and angry toward her---she was triggered.  So are they aware? Yes and no.  It all depends and I don't think we will ever really know what they think and what they remember and if what they remember was really actual or not!

As far as different levels of functioning go, think of Glenn Close when she boils the rabbit and tries to kill Michael Douglas' family in that movie(I can't remember the name of it right now) and how crazy she was compared to Princess Diana.  Yes, Princess Diana is said to have had BPD.  She was very high functioning but was she aware that she was manipulating the press when she sat outside of the Taj Ma Hal(don't know the spelling) for all to see that she was alone and abandoned by the Royal Family and was looking for people to rescue her?  She hated the press yet she used them very well when she needed them.  She was so great and skilled---she was able to seduce the entire world into wanting to love and rescue her!How many of you know people who seem so great in society, in their professions, in your family, but you know that they look good on the outside but on the inside they are really not in control and you wonder why people can't see their true self?  These are the high-functioning BPD's--they have everyone fooled but partners, some family, and unfortunately their kids. 

[SuddenlySense]

Wow, this clears a lot of things up for me!  Thanks!

I have often wondered how my uBPDh could spout all the politicly correct stuff about how to treat people, be apparently appalled at how others mistreated people, sit in church/Sunday School and participate fully... .yet be so cruel to those of us close to him.  Like 2 different people.  But the timing/situation differences, and the MMOODD were definitely different.  Hmmm... .

[LAPDR]

mattdj,

Great simple question but I believe it would have many complex answers to it. My feeling on this is you have to view it if there are other disorders contributing also to this state of their thinking, specifically narcissism or anti-social disorders. Many poster here have described their BPDso as having never lied to them or never cheated on them so there is probably a big mix-bag of symptoms that can be displayed.

People who suffer from this disorder went to the same schools, Sunday school classes and exposed to the same social expectations from world that you and I were so they have to have a sense of right and wrong somewhere in their souls or you and I would have never met them. If a spouse cheats on their partner they try and cover it up. Why? Could be many reasons but the point is why do they cover it up? They know its counter to some moral code of conduct or what is expected of them from their close community of family and friends or they don’t want to hurt somebody close to them. I believe they know if they are caught it will cause pain to themselves and others around them. I know that my BPDxw could get involved with somebody and if they balked up front she would tell them that we had a open marriage and everything would be OK. I about flipped out when I found out she had told this whale of a tale. She was making up lies at the beginning of an affair to make it sound acceptable to somebody who didn’t think it was!

So why do they do it? That is probably the complexity of it all. Trying to fulfill unmet needs with some self sense of entitlement or reckless abandonment? I’m not sure but some of this still leaves me in the unknown category of the disorder.

Great thread – hope there is a lot more contribution to come.

LA

[PerfectlyClear]

I agree - Great thread.

I struggle with this one.  When I see my BPh lash out at me but at the same time try to get the kids on his "side"  I cant believe he is not in control.  Or when he is calm and kind to people who actually do treat him bad but rages at me, I think if he can control it he must know.

I am torn between him not being aware, because honestly if I thought he knew and did it anyway I think I might have a breakdown.  So assuming he doesnt know protects me, more so than him.  I guess it gives me an excuse to keep trying at the relationship. 

It's interesting though, I need to believe he isnt aware, but spend great amounts of time trying to make him aware.  What the h--- is that about?

[SuddenlySense]

Amen!  I have beaten my head against so many walls thinking I could make him aware.  That always brings on denials of what he has said or a different version or claiming I had taken it out of context.  What context?  "You deserve to be hurt" can stand by itself.  There are times when a statement is a statement and context is a non-issue!

[ObserverMode]

My guess was that in the moment, they may be slightly aware, but that the magnitude of the emotion, or whatever causes the behaviour quickly masks any awareness... .Perhaps Im trying to associate it with cognative function that Im used to, but I find in situations of extreme emotion, you tend to be less "aware" socially... .  For example, in the heat of a bad argument with someone, you may say something you normally wouldnt, and perhaps didnt mean.  You havent LOST your awareness that saying something horrible to a person is a bad thing... .  But being emotionally charged, sometimes your common sense gets drowned in emotion.  I still feel like I have a LOT to learn about BPD... .so I could be way off the mark... .  But from what I know, it seems like that could at least be part of it.

[PerfectlyClear]

ObserverMode:  That makes sense.  They dont necessarily lose the concept of right and wrong, they just cant control what is happening at the moment.  But why can they control it with others? Is it the emotional investment with their partners that raises the bar?  Do you think they know after the fact but are too emabarrassed or ashamed so they try to deny?

[SuddenlySense]

But if they try to deny, then they are aware and should be held accountable... .right?  They just choose not to be?

[LAPDR]

I think any of us can get caught up in a rush of a moment and say or do something we regret later, sometimes sooner if we get that so called gut reaction of guilt and shame. Usually we can apologize and ask for forgiveness to what we did. Cognitive thinking is an exercise we go through when making a decision to get the best answer. My experience with the BPD is this process is not exercised very well or for very long. Impulse buying, spur of the moment changes in plans, unprovoked attacks for no reason at all and I think procrastination could fall in there too. I used to hear the excuse “It’s too hard to think about that now” and wonder what was so hard to think about to decide what color of paint to buy or if you want to have steak or chicken for dinner. The simple process of thinking we take for normal and everyday must work a little different for them and hard to believe or to understand how it works in their minds.

Most are actively aware they are different but rarely will they admit it to others. I’m sure in your relationships they have been very down and maybe upset and tell you things you have never heard before and yet the next day they are over it or maybe pretend it never happened.

One of the main traits of BPD is to deny responsibility for anything they do and usually blame their own bad behavior and even their bad luck on the ones closest around them. There are a lot of fear factors talked about that make this so easy for them to keep in a state of denial of their real feelings and needs which they will never asked to be fill.

There is a lot to learn about this disorder and probably a lot more to come to light as more research and discovery is made about it. I find it hard at times to understand it because it is so dynamic and diverse in how it affects them. Many similaries but oh so different many times. It comes in lots of flavors and colors. What I found important is I had to acknowledge that they think and process things differently in their mind then we do.

[airbornedoc]

What I am trying to differentiate it the actual "consciousness" or awareness they have of their behaviour.

They are fully aware of their behavior, they just don't care. Now they do care when you call them on it or they want to dump on you about the guilt of their behavior.

When everyone is an object to be used then why would they care. In there mind this is perfectly normal.

[Powder]

I agree with all of the above, Very Confused what you are saying is so true IN THE MOOD or the triggers.  This can be confusing I thought that Diana was narcissitic and was using the press to get back at the Queen (The Royal Family).  I think she went into the whole marriage with a Princess attitude in the beginning. Your right I think the way the Royal Family controlled everything she came out damaged.  Why would a school teacher marry a high minded Prince in the first place.

The triggers and what they need at the time is so right. Just depressing.  I just can't understand how can they suppress this stuff in front of people/public and look like the victim. This has helped me alot and am starting to see the less you try to help them the better off you are.  Very Confused if you can answer this for me if I try too hard to help my husband come out of the fog he turn abusive because he hate to face reality so bad. I quess I should leave it alone because he likes the world he is in. It seem like you leave him in the one world that works for him and play Fantasy Island.  It is hard for me because I am very open and honest. 

Thanks, Powder. 

[veryconfused]

Powder

Hi.  I am not really an expert on everything here and obviously I am here because I am confused too. But what I know and everyone will probably tell you is that YOU CANNOT HELP YOUR PARTNER!  They have to recognize their own behaviors and help themselves.  Their desire for attachment and their fear of abandoment coincide--they are simulatulous.  It's like wanting a candy bar and needing it with all the fibers of your being and you see it in your reach.  You do everything you can to get that candy bar and once you have it, once you are allowed to open it up to eat it, you FEAR it more than anything and start making rational (irrational to us) sense to dump and belittle this candy bar.  Actually, it's almost like you don't even remember how it got into your hand in the first place and you hate this evil thing b/c it is bad for you.  How can anyone help someone whose thought processes and defense modes are so strong?  These are deep-rooted defenses and as one knows, anger is the first response to defending ones self.  You can't make your partner change--only you and working on who you are and what you want in life.  What is your destiny in life?  What destiny would you have written for yourself before you were born? 

I stayed too long, sacrified too much.  I suffered from depression, panic attacks, shyness, isolation, and even wore down to the point of getting mono.  I am one month NO CONTACT and I can breath.  I am happy. I can think in MY OWN reality and now I see the dysfunction of her reality and mental illness.  What is the price you want to pay or are willing to pay, Powder.  You know the choice is yours.  And sadly if you do leave you will have a period of grief and guilt AND your partner will move right onto another victim.  It's true.  THEY CANNOT LOVE ANYONE for any given time beyond their own fears, needs, and moods.  They latch onto and morph into anyone who will let them.  Do you deserved to be loved better than this?  Oh, they have such great qualities that we love so much about them.  Read some of the other postings about mirroring---they mirror your best traits and this is who you love--YOURSELF!  They DO NOT LOVE THEIRSELVES and therefore they can love no other person.  They feel hatred and disgust and think they are unworthy and they will project this onto you.  Imagine the confusion--you love the best of yourself mirrored in them and then they act like they hate you.  WOW!  This is some crazy stuff, Powder.  It is draining to say the least.  Save your soul--work on yourself.  Afterall, that is why you are here!  May you find your right path, may you see what you need to see, and may you find the peace you want to.  God Bless.

[Powder]

Very Confused thanks, I don't to want high jack the thread. I am looking up the mirroring now.  I have a long road to travel up ahead with my health problems.  Seems like the perfect relationship until he can't have what he want. The candy was a good example and that is exactly how I feel.  At this point I feel like I keep going back to the store to get the candy bar with the worm in it hoping it won't be there each time.

Thanks, Powder 

[mattdj]

Thanks 4 the interest in this thread. The ability of a BPD to justify in their own mind that they are not at fault I feel further supports my feelings that they are "aware" of their behavior and they will do anything and everything to make sure there story is just how it is (The black and write - right or wrong).  I think of my situation where I was basically put in a position of submission when I was with her where I would darned if I do, darned if I don't. I changed my behavior, adjusted to her needs and did everything she wanted and needed. I lost myself. I was depressed, anxious, not motivated and basically was drained. When my uBPDxgf left my house (which I stayed away whilst she was packing for 3 days) I returned to find my car stolen (which I specifically asked her not to), multiple other assets and worst of all she had strategically placed a packet of anti-depressants that I had started to take so they were clearly visible in the bathroom (not in the cupboard). This was her was of saying to me "now who is the real crazy one". In her mind I am. And I'm sure she will be telling all her friends that I was a depressive, anxious un-motivated person and thats why she left. Its a pity they only see the side she wants to show them. They have no idea of the hell she put me though. 

[Awakened]

I vote a definite YES to this question.  His actions are deliberate to invoke a response - manipulation.    Example:  We could be having a family dinner with either sets of family and he would say something outrageous about me or someone else who was not present and then look over at me with a little smirk.  I learned very quickly to not say hardly anything whenever we were out together because I never knew what would trigger a verbal attack to make ME look like the one with the problem.( Of course that now gave him another reason to put me down - I'm boring, never talk, etc... )  ( I would talk, just when I was not around him)  He is a high functioning unBPD with definite narcistic qualities.   Any response to any of his ridiculous statements would just keep his game going.  There was never any winner except him.  No matter who his verbal sparring was with.  Always in a darned if you do situation with him also.  He is smart enough to know that non of us want a confrontation, but in his mind, he has always won because we kept silent.

Matt, I know all about the medication tricks also.  Just another sick manipulation.    Your job and mine is to understand that it is not us with the problem, we cannot fix these folks and to start healing from the damage they have done to us and get on with our life.     

I know, easier said than done.   My weekend was an emotional rollercoaster  but deep down you and I and everyone here know what we need to do.  Otherwise we wouldn't have found this awesome board!

Now, I'm going to go and try and follow my own advice the best I can today and keep looking towards the future.     Chin up, smile, and have a wonderful day      8)

[veryconfused]

Matt and Awakened

Your replies hit home with the feeling like they made us loose ourselves in the process of trying to identify with them and work on issues to help the relationship.   and come to find out, they don't work on themselves but only blame us further.  I wrote in a new subject called Feeling Guilty or Paranoid(or some title like that) about how I felt paranoid that there was something wrong with me because of how she made me think it wasn't her but me who was the problem.  An ambassador replied and told me this is called projection-they will project onto you what they feel about themselves.

[Chili]

Learning to identify projection and to translate their projecting into what it really means is a great step to self-healing.

I pride myself on my parenting. As a single mom for most of my kids’ lives, I worked diligently at making sure they were given as much love, guidance and attention as I possibly could provide. Psycho Man started with little digs about my children. This was followed by small things he thought I was doing wrong. After a while, he was flat-out accusing me of neglect, abuse, as well as sexual impropriety. Meanwhile, this crap began to invade my mind. I began changing my parenting style because I really believed I was screwing up. My children – who are almost grown – were quite confused. They began hiding things from me, staying away from home, and not confiding in me anymore. (Most of this was because of PM but some was due to the changes I had made.)

Once I learned about BPD, I began therapy. I cried to my therapist about my parenting and the things PM was saying. He explained to me that PM is the bad parent. He has a daughter who hates him and is NC. All of the digs at me were really about himself. When I had a handle on what was going on, I sat down with my children, apologized and explained what was going on. Our relationships were repaired (thank God!) and we were able to move forward.

This was just one small component of the damage he caused me in just two short years. It makes me physically ill to think what would have happened had I stayed longer.

Chili

[mattdj]

Chilli I so understand where you are coming from. My relationship with my 13 yo daughter whilst with my ex partner took a battering. My daughter liked to stay in her room, listen to music, surf the net (the kind of things a typical teenager does) and I accepted that. My ex often would comment on why she stayed in her room all the time and thought she should come out and be more social. She also thought she was selfish and spoilt. As she had sole custody of her 12 yo son I took on her advice onboard and like you thought I was screwing up. I tried to engage with my daughter. We had tears together. She didnt call me as much to stay over and didnt talk to me the way we used to. I could see she couldn't understand where I was coming from but I desperately trusted my partners advice. When I was finally set free, I apologised to my daughter and she has been great and been there for me like Ive never seen her before. That keeps me going!

[Powder]

  Again.


Chilli

How well do I understand all of the post above. Chilli you are right it make you physically ill thinking about it and alot of us end up physically sick, in therapy, PTSD, medicines you name it. Am just getting around to my health issues again and trying to work through it with on going injuries.

People don't understand you and I don't expect them to. People are just starting to pray for me again after years.


Awaken

Your post was right on it and am going to stop talking infront of others also, they just use it against you.  Emotional Sabatoge.

Matt

You have to hold you head up and feel good about yourself, this is the kind of debris they leave for us to get over.  So what if people believe her and she get away with a few evil deeds, God is watching her.  It hurt but find something you enjoy to try to distract yourself from the pain of what she did. You need the medicine take it. I would not even discuss it with her or give her the pleasure seeing how much damage she cause. The projection make me feel like throwing up because it damages yourself esteem to the point of you giving up and thinking the world operate that way and that is how others perceive you.  This make it difficult for others to get through to you and help you.

The more they see how much damaged and chaos they cause the the happier they are, because they want us like them (twisted and disappointed).  Am much stronger now and using more self control.  I tried so hard to help my husband with a problem with his family and he took it out on me. He allow me to help him with it, but since its not going the way he want it to go he turned on me like black snake.  Very Confused you hit the nail on the head (you can't help them, don't) help yourself. 

Am trying to walk in love if they can't control eveything going on around them and it don't turn out the way they want it to they project on you what they are feeling.  This is really helping me, my husband even admit this week he was wrong and out of touch when things don't go the way he want them to. Am glad he's coming to the light.

But amazing how calm, sweet and giving until they can't control something. Amazing.

[Awakened]

Powder -- first a huge hug for you  .    Now for my reply to your last post

Awaken

Your post was right on it and am going to stop talking infront of others also, they just use it against you.  Emotional Sabatoge.

Please do not stop being yourself.  This is how we lose ourselves and the BPD SO is  taking over our lives.   I did not explain myself very well and for that I apologize.  I should have said I used to stop talking in front of others when he was around.   When my sanity was finally pushed to the limits with all his  crap and my declining health because of it...   was when i came to my senses -- or at least a couple of them  .  Life is way to short for what they are putting us through and for them to ruin us.   If I have something to say to someone, then dammit I'm going to say it.    I also started looking -- really looking at the way his interruptions to conversations and some of his absurd allegations, comments must have looked or seemed to other people.  Watch their reactions.  You may be suprised.  Most people will NOT get involved or defend because then they would become a target also.        So,  start taking those baby steps and take back your life for you.  Don't worry so much about what others think.  I think when all is said and done that you will be very happily suprised at how many people saw how "off " things were with this person.      It's unfortunate that more people won't speak up though.  Although - with what we have been through who can blame them... .           Be safe, be well, and yes BE HAPPY, you (we) deserve it!

[Powder]

Am just sitting here reading and thinking, the way we moved in this house, how I had to find it. How I had to sell the last house by myself at that time I was working out of the home on a full-time job. I stop to work part-time, start his business for him, take my son to therapy and help him stay in school five years ago.  Now he my husband refused to talk to the owner and I get all the heat. I look like the Wicked Witch of the East, to sick to work now. 

If I buy a snowcone/push-up someone run back and tell it. This place is up for sell, but yet if I look at another property someone run and tell and they flench.  I just started to get outside and go to department stores after years. Can you imagine.

I feel like am still running on the black and yellow circle Dorothy was on in the wizard of oz around and around. It's always something -- new drama, left over drama from years ago. If you really look at it you're left with the responsiblity and holding the bag. The old realtor said you have got to be out of your mind with your good credit to rent. We need the tax write off.  I just gave up and gave in. Now I have the munchkins looking on, well am enjoying life if they get mad they just have to come out from under the flowers. I keep thinking of the munchkins taking baby steps to come out. Venting, LOL

[macman]

These folks are very tough to figure out, and I have never been sure of how much my wife understood what she was doing.  She does believe that she can say or do whatever she wants to family.  She feels entitled to having us listen to and understand her. (She was never able to do this as a child with her mother.) Unfortunately she cannot separate venting emotions and making accusations.  I have often told her that I am willing to listen, until she starts making false accusations and blaming me for things that did not happen. She really wants to be understood and listened to, but cannot easily do the same for others.  If there is an issue, its the other persons fault, not hers.

One example was a few weeks ago she physically restrained D, who was throwing a temper tantrum, by bending her backwards over the couch and picnhing her shoulder.  Not only was it restraining her, but the look in my wifes eye told me it was anger at her as well.  When I addressed the issue, I was "taking D's side" and I was showing that I did not trust her to control herself.  A couple of weeks later, she saw a man do the same general thing to his grandson, and she was furious. "How dare he do that.  He's abusing him.  No child deserves that" etc.  The fact that she does the same thing nver occured to her.

[hardatwork]

My BP "friend" (as the definition of that word has been strained beyond belief) has openly admitted that she often has no recollection of what she says/does during her rages. I believe her when she says this--it would explain why she can't seem to understand why I come home from work feeling uptight and/or angry (over what she shrieked at me over the phone hours earlier).  Unfortunately, every attempt I've made at saying, "I'm feeling uptight because of what went on between us over the phone today" is met with dismissiveness, as though during her tirades I'm somehow deliberately ignoring a flashing indicator light that says, ":)on't take what she's saying *right now* personally." Since she doesn't recall it, it seems as though therefore she shouldn't have to deal with the consequences; moreover, if I know what's good for me, I won't ask her to.