New Phase, New Point (Part 8)

[Grey Kitty]

UPDATE. BAD UPDATE.

My wife just called. She's looking at a pair of couples T's out there. She claims she's very busy, and doesn't have much time to call them. She was looking at one in a town an hour away, but didn't call yet. Then found one in the town I'm in, and was asking me if I wanted that one.

... .then she dropped another bomb. She doesn't want to be in our committed marriage anymore. She asked me about looking for a T for an amicable split, instead of trying to repair our marriage.

I asked her what an amicable split meant to her.

She mentioned all the joint things we do together. Being friends. Some websites. How much she enjoyed our time together over Christmas.

I listened. And told her that it wouldn't work for me. That I'd not be able to be friends with her for six months, a year, a decade. I admitted that I'd kinda checked out on my feelings over Christmas.

We stayed civil. I said something round-about, and she latched onto my saying her decision was rash. She told me that I had no idea what she was thinking and feeling and reminded me how much I hate it when she does that.

(Note: What I was trying to talk around was that I don't think she's in a place where she is emotionally competent to make her own decisions until she works on some of her own stuff and allows some time for self-reflection. And while I believe it, there's no good way to say that!)

I left it at I'd rather try to have this final discussion with a third party referee in the room, not just the two of us.

She's going to call the MC and see if she can set up an appointment next week.



The saga of my wife cheating is now in its fourth month. I didn't think I was going to let it go on this long. History here... .the titles shifted with my feelings at the time:

Part 1: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=235769.0;all

Part 2: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=236247.0;all

Part 3: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=236799.0

Part 4: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=236950.0;all

Part 5: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=237387.0;all

Part 6: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=238665.0;all

Part 7: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=239999.0;all

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[vortex of confusion]

UPDATE. BAD UPDATE.

Sending you a great big hug!   

(Note: What I was trying to talk around was that I don't think she's in a place where she is emotionally competent to make her own decisions until she works on some of her own stuff and allows some time for self-reflection. And while I believe it, there's no good way to say that!)

I don't think it would be a good idea to bring this up. Telling somebody else that she isn't emotionally competent to make her own decisions is unbelievable invalidating. And, it also comes across as very arrogant. Yes, that is what you believe but what makes you believe that? I am sure that it is a big list of things.

Let me also ask you this: If she isn't competent to make her own decisions with regard to end the marriage, then what makes her competent to make decisions such as whether or not to see the other guy? Is she competent or not? I am not trying to be adversarial. It is a question that I have asked myself over the years. Is my husband capable or isn't he? If he is, why is it that I have only held him accountable on some things while not others?

I left it at I'd rather try to have this final discussion with a third party referee in the room, not just the two of us.

Are you in denial about her wanting to end things with you? What do you think a third party will add to the discussion?

[Grey Kitty]

I don't think it would be a good idea to bring this up. Telling somebody else that she isn't emotionally competent to make her own decisions is unbelievable invalidating. And, it also comes across as very arrogant. Yes, that is what you believe but what makes you believe that? I am sure that it is a big list of things.

Yup, I know that nothing good will come of calling her emotionally incompetent to make a life decision! That's why I didn't say it directly! Your question is a very good one.

I've got two reasons. First she's been living out of a suitcase since April, and that has really worn on her. She unpacked on Monday. Feeling safe and hitting equilibrium may take more than 4 days.

Second, her reasons/statements about it are all over the place, and many of them are about how she can't handle me having feelings that challenge her... .not about her making her own choices.

She might be clearer about it in her own head than when she's talking to me about it. I know that when I write things here or talk to a friend I feel a lot clearer than when I'm talking to her about our marriage!

[Bloomer]

Jaysus, that's some bomb, man!   

Is it possible she's testing the waters to see if you'll budge on boundaries? I feel like my H does this every time the topic of leaving comes up. And the one time I let him go so far as viewing apartments, he eventually caved.

I agree she probably isn't in a good enough state to make a sound decision about your shared life but of course there is little value in sharing this with her. Has it ever crossed your mind that she might *never* be there?   

Are you feeling any peace in the thought of moving on right now?

[Grey Kitty]

Are you in denial about her wanting to end things with you? What do you think a third party will add to the discussion?

I'm hoping a third party will call her on the stuff that sounds inconsistent and all over the place.

Keep us both on track, as we seem to ramble into vague unhappy places when we discuss it together.

Are you feeling any peace in the thought of moving on right now?

I was kinda getting there--at least that I couldn't keep going where things were headed. And this bomb isn't totally new. I've heard it or similar before in the time since she started cheating.

I don't think I'm feeling much at all right now.

I know she doesn't want a complete split with me, but I can't see myself in the amicable split she wants.

To me it feels like losing the commitment of our marriage and keeping all the other trappings.

I think that doing it that way will keep me from making my own choices in my life moving forward, the way I want to... .while she flits about and does what she wants. The sort of heartbreak and heartburn I'm experiencing right now.

[MaroonLiquid]

Jaysus, that's some bomb, man!   

Is it possible she's testing the waters to see if you'll budge on boundaries? I feel like my H does this every time the topic of leaving comes up. And the one time I let him go so far as viewing apartments, he eventually caved.

That's interesting and I think is valid here.  She's trying anything it seems.  She is obviously struggling with the other guy and wants to feel better about it and get you to give in.  GK, remember when my wife threatened divorce because she was trying to keep the pot stirred and control me and when I said both times, "do what you need to do.", she caved. 

[wdone]

Are you in denial about her wanting to end things with you? What do you think a third party will add to the discussion?

I'm hoping a third party will call her on the stuff that sounds inconsistent and all over the place.

Keep us both on track, as we seem to ramble into vague unhappy places when we discuss it together.

Are you feeling any peace in the thought of moving on right now?

I was kinda getting there--at least that I couldn't keep going where things were headed. And this bomb isn't totally new. I've heard it or similar before in the time since she started cheating.

I don't think I'm feeling much at all right now.

I know she doesn't want a complete split with me, but I can't see myself in the amicable split she wants.

To me it feels like losing the commitment of our marriage and keeping all the other trappings.

I think that doing it that way will keep me from making my own choices in my life moving forward, the way I want to... .while she flits about and does what she wants. The sort of heartbreak and heartburn I'm experiencing right now.

I am so sorry, Grey Kitty.   

What you said about her wanting to keep you around as friends, so you can't move forward really made sense and resonated with me about my own situation... I should go back and read your story... but has she down this before? (I didn't get the impression that she had?) 

[patientandclear]

I know she doesn't want a complete split with me, but I can't see myself in the amicable split she wants.

To me it feels like losing the commitment of our marriage and keeping all the other trappings.

I think that doing it that way will keep me from making my own choices in my life moving forward, the way I want to... .while she flits about and does what she wants. The sort of heartbreak and heartburn I'm experiencing right now.

I agreed to essentially what she is asking for, with my BPDex. It sucked, for the reasons you are flagging. He got all of the same good stuff he had when we were in a committed r/ship, but without any accountability or commitment on his part. I agreed to it because I didn't want to control or pressure him (esp in light of his controlling and abusive childhood) and thought showing up voluntarily as his "person" when we didn't have to, would establish trust. For a while he kept being my "person" too. But when he stopped, there was nothing I could say or do about it on the terms I'd signed on for. He thought he could freely come and go and that should be fine.

I learned the hard way that it was not fine.

[Grey Kitty]

wdone, no, she hasn't run away from our marriage before. Yes, some divorce/breakup threats before, but this is different. And since we are already living separately there isn't much more running away that she needs to do. In that way, very different from your story.

So I just got back from a phone call with my dear friend, the one I call the captain of "Team Grey Kitty". She talked to my wife yesterday... .and did admit that she was breaking confidence telling me some things my wife said, 'tho they mostly weren't anything I hadn't heard directly. I also don't think my wife asked for confidence directly.

Almost her first words were something like "I'm so sorry, Grey" before I'd even said much. Her take is that my wife is living soo far from reality. Trying to twist her morals and definitions of words like "cheating" to match reality... .and trying to twist reality into stuff that matches her feelings. (This friend has LOTS of BPD experience) She had a few points for me.

First, expect the recycle attempt. As in, my wife will eventually realize what reality is, that she ___ed up big time, and fall apart. Badly. And call for help. As a way to haul me back into everything. I've always been there to for her when she did this before. (Usually she didn't fall apart

Second, it is time to start thinking like we're separating. Time to not answer the phone when my wife calls, let her go to voicemail, and only talk to her with a script to keep me on track... .not very different from what is recommended on the divorce board.

I'm still a little shocked about the prediction that she will crash, burn, and call for help... .and the statement that I need to be ready to hold strong and NOT rescue her. Not sure what I'll do. I am betting she'll crash and burn 'tho.

She's had a really tough year, and I was jumping through hoops to save her most of the last 13 months. The difference is that she was crashing because of things beyond her control... .not because of the consequences of her actions toward me, and my response to them.

If I'm ready to cut ties and go forward as a single guy, I probably will be ready to no rescue her.

Instead I'm still hoping she will get a clue... .but for how much longer... .?

... .Cross-posted with P&C.   I know you went through it. I read your posts then. I've done my share of it too. That's why I'm telling her now that I can't, instead of agreeing to it.

[MissyM]

GK, I am going to guess that your wife is talking to her affair partner and trying to figure out a way to keep him.  If she can rationalize and convince herself that what she is doing isn't cheating because the 2 of you are splitting, then it makes her feel better.  Kind of like telling you before she had sex with him.  I agree that she will crash and burn, probably when she realizes that she isn't going to be happier with the affair partner.  So sorry you are going through this, it stinks. 

My advice is to decide what you want, your actions are going to be very different based upon that.  I know you are aware of this because of the advice you give others, so I would take the time to figure this out for yourself.

[patientandclear]

  x 100.

I really like the captain of Team Grey Kitty.

[formflier]

 

Grey,

Hang in there man... .

You are under no obligation to participate in the split of your marriage... .if you don't want to.  If she is going to leave... .she can do that.

I would be careful about agreeing to meet "only" to discuss and amicable breakup.

I would stick with a line... .like we are going to meet and discuss our r/s... .leave it at that.


Since she is a bit far from reality... .remember... .the stuff she says may be a test... .know what to know that. 

In fact... that is my best guess right now.

I'm a pretty rational guy... .none of this seems rational... .the stuff she is doing... .so... .hard for me to process and "figure out".

[wdone]

UPDATE. BAD UPDATE.


... .then she dropped another bomb. She doesn't want to be in our committed marriage anymore. She asked me about looking for a T for an amicable split, instead of trying to repair our marriage.

I asked her what an amicable split meant to her.

I wanted to add, when we started couples counseling, and all throughout the six months, my ex said that we were going to meet with our couples counselor to break up, and that was the only reason he was going.  I had to agree to that several times before he would go, or meet me there.  Once I/we got there, he would look at me and shift--usually before even going in, and say he didn't really want to break up and he didn't know what he was thinking.  I'm not sure why this happened... maybe because going to a couples counselor really meant that we were committed and working on it/INTIMACY and commitment stuff…. It was hard to get him there, but he loved it when we went... every time.  We

[Grey Kitty]

Thanks for the support everybody!

@MissyM, curiously enough, she says she's not in contact with the guy she cheated with, and I believe her. She claimed all along that there was no interest in more than an occasional/secondary r/s, on either of their parts. I believe her intention. I don't believe much of anything he said, whether from him directly or via my wife. (If she jumps in with another guy... .it will likely be somebody different.)

Somehow, for my wife, my need to have her cut contact represents and is tied with a gordian knot to all the dysfunctional/controlling/passive-aggressive/whatever things I've done in at least the last 5~10 years of our marriage.

@P&C, the wonderfulness of the captain of Team Grey Kitty just keeps going on!

She also accepted my statement that I wasn't ready to start cutting all ties.

@FF, I agree--I'm not obligated to start splitting my marriage. And if I go to MC with my wife, that won't really be what I'm talking about.

I'm more afraid of my wife re-defining our marriage in a way that doesn't work for me, as it has no commitment from her for anything. I'm afraid of having nothing for me in it but baggage which will keep me out of a better r/s. I also have the freedom to end it if it is what I need.

I don't think her non-reality is intended to be a test for me. Or if it is, perhaps I'm proving not to be codependent enough to pass her test? 

Another crazy part is that she really speaks about how she doesn't like my older codependent behavior... .yet what really seems to set her off is when I start showing a backbone about stuff that matters to me, instead of old codependent behavior. I guess she likes the passive part of passive-aggressive? (Not sure how passive-aggressive I was either; that label and the controlling label have been thrown at me enough that I don't know what to think.)

@wdone, I'm still holding onto a tiny bit of hope that she'll get us an appointment for a couples T... .and figure something out there.

Telling me she can't be in a r/s with me (repeatedly) is NOT the same as ending a r/s. It is hurtful, and confusing... .but she's confused.

If she was really DONE, she'd not be in touch with me. Instead she's clear that she does love me, does want to be connected with me... .and kinda confusedly-vaguely clear that she just can't handle aspects of a committed marriage with me.

Knowing that I'm not interested in her version of an amicable split is going to hit her sooner or later.



It is bedtime. My current mood is pissed. (I'm all over the map; this one will probably not last long enough for me to finish typing this paragraph!) This crap she's thrown my direction has really killed my productivity for anything but emotional processing, and trying to do a few things to take care of myself. Over the last year, her mental health/drama has cost me 70% of the energy I would have liked to have put into something else.

Another day gone without any progress on my boat, which is what I keep telling myself and my friends I'm trying to work on.

[formflier]

 

Grey,

I'm in the same place with productivity.  The guy I used to be... .got things done.

The guy I am now is focused on emotions... .family... .trying to steer this massive ship in the right direction.

This does match my values... .so ultimately I'm ok with it.

But... .it is frustrating.

I think that is what I'm hearing from you... .that you are spending your time on things that you value... .but are frustrated that things that you want to do are not getting done.  Especially because those things are very satisfying... .you have a passion there.

Note:  Earlier in my life I've done a couple smaller boat projects.  Also... I'm a Navy guy... .I love the sea (and live in the mountains right now... hmmmm)  Anyway... .the satisfaction of getting on the water with something that you put back together... .is awesome.   I hope you can find a way to keep this going.

I would also note that there is a reason most boats are referred to as "she"... .   

Maybe that is another post all together... .

Hang in there!

[Grey Kitty]

Well... .I just got off the phone with another dear friend I've not talked to since before the holidays.

I updated her on some of what's going on. I heard some of her news.

... .and I was soo busted on the very codependent sounding stuff I was saying. Everything I'm talking about is what my wife is doing, what she's thinking, what she's going through, and the guys she's chasing after in various places.

What about the things that I want to do.

Back to working on the boat today, rain or shine, warm or cold.

[wdone]

[vortex of confusion]

... .and I was soo busted on the very codependent sounding stuff I was saying. Everything I'm talking about is what my wife is doing, what she's thinking, what she's going through, and the guys she's chasing after in various places.

What about the things that I want to do.

Back to working on the boat today, rain or shine, warm or cold.

The hardest thing for me to change is how I talk about stuff. For years, everything that I talked about was in relation to my husband and what he is doing and feeling and thinking. Even positive stuff was about my husband. Ugh! Good luck on switching the focus to you and what you are doing and what you want and what you are thinking and feelings.

[MissyM]

... .and I was soo busted on the very codependent sounding stuff I was saying. Everything I'm talking about is what my wife is doing, what she's thinking, what she's going through, and the guys she's chasing after in various places.

What about the things that I want to do.

Back to working on the boat today, rain or shine, warm or cold.

I recognize this dance that happens in my marriage.  I would get really clear on what I wanted, my dBPDh would agree that is what he wanted (when he saw I wasn't going to give in) and then he would do something to knock my feet out from under me emotionally and I would respond with my side of the codependent dance.  Good thing is that my awareness has helped stop me from reacting as much and/or catching myself and getting back on track sooner.  Sounds like that is what you are doing, getting back on track sooner.  Either she will come along and join you, or she won't.  Chasing after her and future worrying won't change anything, and it is mentally/emotionally/physically draining. 

Enjoy your day working on the boat!   

[formflier]

and then he would do something to knock my feet out from under me emotionally and I would respond with my side of the codependent dance.  

Can you give an example?

[Grey Kitty]

Well, I did get *some* work done today; I was hoping to do a bigger job, but I found a smaller one first, and need to wait for things to cure before I move on to the other one. At least inertia is in the correct direction now.

I also was thinking... .my friend did note that my wife has a pattern of flirting and seeking male attention. The question of how it serves my wife isn't mine to worry about, although living with the pattern is mine as long as I'm involved with my wife.

And I had another thought: Am I failing to meet my wife's needs/desires in a way which pushes her to seek attention from other guys? (No, her cheating is not my fault, and she's not even saying that!) And I realized that yes, there is room for me to do better. A LOT better.

I've not found romantic gestures hugely natural or easy. Especially the traditional ones. My wife does want and need them. For a couple years, her other partner was incredibly romantic. I probably upped my game some, partly because of the reminder, and partly because I didn't want to look that lame in comparison. After he died, I fell into taking care of her as she was terribly depressed, and caretaking doesn't lend itself toward romance. And neither does feeling hurt, angry, or betrayed.

I do know that my wife wants/needs romance. A bit of desire/seduction mixed in with it would be good for her as well.

Will it stop her from flirting? Little chance, but I don't need it to. Will it stop her from cheating? Maybe not, but that isn't why I would make that change. My reason will be to give her what she needs/wants, because I care about her.

She hasn't even asked for any of this recently, or complained about its absence to me.

And I'm thinking that if I'm going to have a working marriage, I need to put some effort into it, in a direction that I've forgotten about. It may not work. It may be too little, too late.

Most importantly, I need to focus myself on MY goals and MY needs. One of my priorities is working on my boat. Working on my marriage is a priority too, and I'm in a kinda ambiguous state about it right now.

I will serve myself better to focus on both these things, instead of focusing on what my wife is thinking/doing. It is such a hard thing to change.

[formflier]

I've not found romantic gestures hugely natural or easy. Especially the traditional ones. My wife does want and need them. 

Do you really think she doesn't want or need them? 

Here is the thing... .pwBPD sometimes don't say what they mean... .aren't clear... .say one thing... .want another.

She also is inconsistent in living out her values... .

So... it would go along that line that she would be inconsistent in communicating her needs to you... .

Not sure if I made that connection properly... .hopefully you get the point...

I like the direction your post is going... .

[Grey Kitty]

Yes, I'm sure she wants them. No, she hasn't asked for them recently. She hasn't mentioned it recently.

She's pretty much completely failed to communicate her needs to me in a way that I can do anything to provide them lately.

[formflier]

Yes, I'm sure she wants them. No, she hasn't asked for them recently. She hasn't mentioned it recently.

She's pretty much completely failed to communicate her needs to me in a way that I can do anything to provide them lately.

And if you ask her directly what she needs?  

My guess is a weird... wandering response is what you will get. 

But... .just curious if you have directly asked her recently

[Mie]

I know she doesn't want a complete split with me, but I can't see myself in the amicable split she wants.

I understand this.

My SO is talking about (since we started the business together) that he wants 'his freedom' and I should do my things and he should Go his way, and we would both be happier. We would stay friends forever! He is now waiting for the business to bring some money to him and then he will go, and our 'amicable split' will happen.

I certainly don't want any amicable split either! I don't even understand the concept.

Being friends means that I stay where I am (running business, keeping house), and he will go away, spend all his money in very short time, start and ruin a new relationship, and when he is lonely and penniless he can come back to me because we are friends. No thanks.

[patientandclear]

GK ... .Referring to your ideas about being more romantic toward your wife, because it might make her happy: are you trying to be someone whom she would want to treat better than she is currently treating you?

[Grey Kitty]

GK ... .Referring to your ideas about being more romantic toward your wife, because it might make her happy: are you trying to be someone whom she would want to treat better than she is currently treating you?

No, it really doesn't change my bottom line--stay not in contact with the guy she cheated with.

I'm also realizing that I'm getting sorta-kinda-mixed messages from her. She's staying engaged (mostly), saying she loves me, but telling me she can't be in a committed marriage.

The last time she spoke to not being able to work things out with me, I believed her. That was when I told my parents, and asked them not to leave her unsupervised with our joint stuff. She's brought that incident up with me, and with some mutual friends--she feels really hurt or betrayed by what I did then... .

... .and what I did seems pretty reasonable, if I believed her statement about ending things.

... .which makes me think that even at that time, she didn't completely believe herself what she was saying, or at least that she flaps in the breeze with her convictions in typical pwBPD fashion.

I think this is leading me to another new boundary... .one that I will warn my wife about... .that if she tells me again that she wants to end our marriage I will believe her, and act accordingly.

[Crumbling]

    Just saw your thread, GK,   

It does sound like a ' oop or get off the pot' boundary would be totally appropriate.  It's the not knowing, and going back and forth that's hard.  If you know which way the path is headed, even if it isn't the one you want, then at least it's something, right?  Better place to be in than this yo-yoing and quazi-relationship stuff.   

Know what's best for you, GK.     Stay focused on that.  I liked what you said about knowing what you want to say before talking to her.  Getting a clear picture of what you want/need, especially on paper, would be a good solid place to start the conversations.

Be careful about reminiscing and going back over the relationship questioning your actions right now.  Yes, I agree it's good to know where you went wrong, but right now, she has told you she does not want the relationship to go on.  To try to 'fix' things now is to invalidate what she has said.

Tell her, if it's over, it's over.  No going back, no reconnecting after six months, or six weeks.  I like this boundary.  It helps you and her both.  If she is just blowing smoke, then, this may spark her into cutting though it and being real.  I guess the tough part about it is that you would have to be ready to enforce it...

my prayers are with you,

c.

[formflier]

I think this is leading me to another new boundary... .one that I will warn my wife about... .that if she tells me again that she wants to end our marriage I will believe her, and act accordingly.

This seems a little "line in the sandish" to me... .

If... .you have sat with your feelings... and this is really something you want a boundary on... .then by all means... .go for it.

But... .it seems that it gives her a "weapon" to use on you... .or that she will "test" the boundary... .you move on... .she now chases after you... .(once she gets into "pull" mode)

I would focus much more in counseling and on your conversations about how she could be hurt that you acted on her words. (the parents... .joint story thing)  Does she not say what she means?   I would stay on that topic... until she "fully explains herself".

Because... .what you did was reasonable and healthy... .what she did was not.

Ultimately... .what I think "fixes" or gets you guys back on track is that she stays still for a period of months... .you have a counselor to guide you and keep discussions on track... .and she begins to make healthier choices.

Have you thought of what a boundary would look like that says you won't discuss ending your marriage or a split. 

The reality is... .she can leave if she wants... .so if she brings it up... .just say you don't discuss that and end the conversation.

Thoughts?

[Crumbling]

Here's another thought... .you have already set a boundary about this other guy that she has overstepped.  Isn't that the issue for you here, GK, I mean like, before she dropped the bomb? 

Perhaps she dropped the bomb to skirt and muddle the fact that you set a boundary that she overstepped.  You need this validated and addressed, perhaps, before it would be healthy for you to tackle anything else... .

I just know you must be your focus, not her... .dont forget.   

c.

[MissyM]

GK, I totally get the flip flopping on the relationship based upon our pwBPDs behavior.  I agree with FF about the "line in the sand".  Whenever I lay out a hard boundary like that to my dBPDh, then he responds like a teenager that is told what to do (and anyone that has teenagers knows how that goes)!

My dBPDh and I have had a lot of marital therapy but the people we are working with right now have a lot of experience with addiction and PDs.  They told my husband that part of the therapeutic agreement was to not talk about divorce and even more challenging not to think about divorce while working with them.  This is the assignment for him when frustrated by any disagreement that is the 1st place my dBPDh goes in his head.  Having that shift in thinking has made a tremendous difference in our attitude and approach towards each other.  As long as that thought keeps swirling around in his head, it keeps us from being able to work on our problems in a productive way and that is going to make divorce inevitable.  So my suggestion is find a good MC and let them bring up no divorce threats, thinking or talk.

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RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Cole]

Grey Kitty,

Just found and read this thread. Sorry to hear what you are going through, I have been through it a few times myself.

Last time my wife pulled this was November. Very same story: Let's get a divorce. We will be friends. I will come over and cook for you. We will still do things together. You will drop off the kids, it will be snowing and you will spend the night. etc... .

This time, I set a boundary. I told her I do not want a divorce, but if she does that is up to her. I will help her pack. I will help her move. Then, we will have no contact except what is necessary to co-parent kids. I told her I was too young and had too much to offer someone new, and if I met that person, I did not want a clingy ex ruining it.  

I called her bluff and she decided maybe we should try to work things out. In our case, I think she wanted the romantic fantasy of me pursuing her like we were still dating.

Not saying this is the answer for you, but maybe provides some insight into her thinking? Seems like pwBPD thrive on being pursued, something that is lost after a few years of marriage.

[Bloomer]

GK, I totally get the flip flopping on the relationship based upon our pwBPDs behavior.  I agree with FF about the "line in the sand".  Whenever I lay out a hard boundary like that to my dBPDh, then he responds like a teenager that is told what to do (and anyone that has teenagers knows how that goes)!

My dBPDh and I have had a lot of marital therapy but the people we are working with right now have a lot of experience with addiction and PDs.  They told my husband that part of the therapeutic agreement was to not talk about divorce and even more challenging not to think about divorce while working with them.  This is the assignment for him when frustrated by any disagreement that is the 1st place my dBPDh goes in his head.  Having that shift in thinking has made a tremendous difference in our attitude and approach towards each other.  As long as that thought keeps swirling around in his head, it keeps us from being able to work on our problems in a productive way and that is going to make divorce inevitable.  So my suggestion is find a good MC and let them bring up no divorce threats, thinking or talk.

My dBPDh and I have been playing ping-pong ball with the big D card for quite some time. It started as a game of solitaire and eventually I got so fed up that I started playing too. I think I'll maybe bring this up as a big one to work on right now to clear the air a bit. Thanks!

Bloomer

[maric]

Hey Grey,

I'm sorry you have been going through this. I just want to add some thought about something I have been thinking about.

There was a post where you said that you are spending 70% of your time to deal with emotional stuff. And I know for sure how it feels because I was there too – now I think I spend some 30% on that, and I'm trying my best to bring it down even more.

I'm sure you love her very much, but it also seems that you are putting so much energy on someone who is not very much committed. And yes, she can still love you, but at the same time not being committed to you or the rs. But is it that what you want/need for your life? Loving is easy, staying committed is the hard work. And, it seems, she does not seem to be much of a hard worker.

So what about using some of the energy you are spending on fixing the rs trying to disengage from it? Maybe practicing some letting go? Trying to get your energy back? Bringing the focus down to YOU only?

I'm sorry for the situation, I hope you are ok tonight. <3

[maric]

And oh, at the same time... .as she seems to not be much of a hard worker, you seem to be like employee #1 of a multinational company. Use this hard work on you. <3

[Grey Kitty]

Bloomer/MissyM, I may try the boundary that I'm not going to discuss ending our r/s with her outside of a couples therapy appointment.

That is a bit gentler than "If you tell me again, I'll believe you."

[Grey Kitty]

And oh, at the same time... .as she seems to not be much of a hard worker, you seem to be like employee #1 of a multinational company. Use this hard work on you. <3

Actually I'd characterize her as a someone who pushes herself very hard, in most everything she does. Lately she pushes herself until exhaustion then collapses for a while, then recovers, and repeats the process.

You know the saying "I like work, I can watch it all day." I DO have a significant capacity for that, more than many people, my wife included.

However... .your point that she's not putting work out there for me, or into our r/s is very well made. You aren't the only person pointing this out to me.

[MissyM]

Bloomer/MissyM, I may try the boundary that I'm not going to discuss ending our r/s with her outside of a couples therapy appointment.

[MaroonLiquid]

Bloomer/MissyM, I may try the boundary that I'm not going to discuss ending our r/s with her outside of a couples therapy appointment.

Sometimes lately I feel I'm at this point too or almost.  I struggle with fear with this one.

[formflier]

However... .your point that she's not putting work out there for me, or into our r/s is very well made. You aren't the only person pointing this out to me.

What is she working on?

[Grey Kitty]

I just realized what a bizarre waiting game / stalemate I'm in with my wife right now.

I'm trying to NOT talk to her about big ticket relationship issues outside of couples T (which hasn't been arranged yet, I believe. I'm letting my wife do it) [My further expansion of the boundary of not talking about ending the r/s. So far untested, as I've not talked to her in a couple days]

She suggested some sort of marriage w/o commitment, where we could do things together but be more free. I expressed lack of interest in a marriage like that.

I told her that cutting contact with this guy was a condition for me staying in our marriage.

She isn't in contact, although she said she would talk to him when she sees him, and that she still considers him a friend. (Last I heard a couple days ago)

We aren't living together. She's not really welcome on the boat, 'tho I did let her visit. I asked her about visiting her in her new place, and she was a little evasive, then told me she wasn't ready for that.

Honestly, we're both doing more to avoid the pain of dividing assets, and divorce, than we are to stay together or work things out.

And lastly... .I'm realizing that she's still (again? Maybe she stopped for a while, or maybe she just wasn't under enough stress for it to show up?) fully in the throws of BPD-like mind-games. Without being directly abusive toward me. Well... .not direct verbal abuse. The fine line that puts things like cheating, or telling me that she's done with our marriage short of abuse isn't making me feel any less hurt or pressured than the original abuse did.

[patientandclear]

GK, I'm feeling your discomfort and sadness through these posts. It seems like you're letting yourself feel it too, which is good.

Honestly I don't get the concept of a boundary of not talking about ending the r/s except in MC. Not sure how one side of a couple can enforce that one.

To me, it's a mark of basic respect for one's partner that either person can always put issues on the table. Our job is to decide on our response ... .Not to stop the conversation from starting.  To try to rule out certain conversations because we don't like what might happen if they occur is genuinely controlling, or avoidant, or both.

This is tough stuff. It just sounds like the two of you don't want the same thing. Sometimes that happens and no one is wrong. A match that once seemed workable can evolve so that the two people do damage to one another because their values and priorities are too different.

What she's choosing is hurting you. I'm sorry.

[123Phoebe]

Hi GK,

I just realized what a bizarre waiting game / stalemate I'm in with my wife right now.

Any new found clarity upon waking up?

Honestly I don't get the concept of a boundary of not talking about ending the r/s except in MC. Not sure how one side of a couple can enforce that one.

Hmm yea, I don't really understand this, either.

I'm trying to NOT talk to her about big ticket relationship issues outside of couples T (which hasn't been arranged yet, I believe. I'm letting my wife do it) [My further expansion of the boundary of not talking about ending the r/s. So far untested, as I've not talked to her in a couple days]

Especially since you've put the ball in her court in finding the MC.  If it's your boundary, then I believe it's up to you to initiate it, enforce it, not wait for her to.  Obviously, things need to be discussed.

Honestly, we're both doing more to avoid the pain of dividing assets, and divorce, than we are to stay together or work things out.

I've gone through a divorce, Grey Kitty.  It was the leading up to it that was the hardest.  When I was truly ready to face it, it felt freeing.  I was finally speaking my truth, ready to live my values, not waiting around for him to see things my way.  We were no longer good for each other, we were bringing each other down.  There was no desire from either of us to work things out.  And even if there was, it would have to be both of us, otherwise we would remain stagnant at best, while miserable is more like it.

Standing in the way of someone else's dreams isn't my style.  I don't have to understand why they have those dreams, simply accept that they do and that those dreams don't belong to me.

We aren't living together. She's not really welcome on the boat, 'tho I did let her visit. I asked her about visiting her in her new place, and she was a little evasive, then told me she wasn't ready for that.

Right now, this is your relationship, this is what your relationship has become.

And lastly... .I'm realizing that she's still (again? Maybe she stopped for a while, or maybe she just wasn't under enough stress for it to show up?) fully in the throws of BPD-like mind-games. Without being directly abusive toward me. Well... .not direct verbal abuse. The fine line that puts things like cheating, or telling me that she's done with our marriage short of abuse isn't making me feel any less hurt or pressured than the original abuse did.

While the both of you had a hand in getting to this point... . It will take both of you to move beyond it, whatever that looks like.

[Bloomer]

I am sorry about your stalemate. It's a very difficult position for you to be in and I have to agree that it does seem like a BPD mind game. She wants you, but on her terms and if you can't bend all the way then she's out BUT she's not doing anything to make that concrete even though you've stated you don't like her terms. She's not really doing anything to help the goal of staying or leaving.

The worst part of this is that unless you commit to leaving, you probably won't know how she really feels because that will be when she is willing to bend not to lose you.   

[vortex of confusion]

I just realized what a bizarre waiting game / stalemate I'm in with my wife right now.

How long are you willing to wait? How long will you be okay with this stalemate/waiting game?

I'm trying to NOT talk to her about big ticket relationship issues outside of couples T (which hasn't been arranged yet, I believe. I'm letting my wife do it) [My further expansion of the boundary of not talking about ending the r/s. So far untested, as I've not talked to her in a couple days]

I am not quite sure how to phrase this but it triggered something in me that I have been dealing with in my relationship. I get so mad when I want to talk about things but get shut down because he isn't ready to talk about it or he doesn't want to deal with it. Yes, delaying a conversation until both parties are ready, willing, and able to tackle the hard issues can be helpful. However, I find it very frustrating when I am put off indefinitely or given a list of conditions that must exist in order to talk about the difficult stuff. On my side, it feels like my husband is avoiding things because he doesn't want to face the truth. It feels like he wants to string me along forever because he doesn't want to lose me while at the same time not really taking things as seriously as I would like. If you want to go see a couples T together, then you can make the appointment. I know that in my situation, I am very reluctant to go see a T with my husband because I don't know if there is anything to save. If he were to come to me and tell me to make an appointment to go see a T so we could talk about our relationship, I would probably refuse. And, if he pushed me to do it, I might agree to get him to shut up and then not follow up because of his tendency to not hear what I am saying.

I am not trying to be mean. I am wondering why you want to be in a relationship with somebody that has shown through their actions and their words that she doesn't want to be with you. I ask myself that question all the time. And the truth is that I don't. I just don't know what else to do at this point in time. So, I am trying to find ways to keep things peaceful.

We aren't living together. She's not really welcome on the boat, 'tho I did let her visit. I asked her about visiting her in her new place, and she was a little evasive, then told me she wasn't ready for that.

Here is a question to consider: If you aren't living together and aren't even completely welcome in each other's homes, then what is the rush? You have been separated with a commitment. Why not separate without any kind of commitment to give you both more time to sort stuff out?

And lastly... .I'm realizing that she's still (again? Maybe she stopped for a while, or maybe she just wasn't under enough stress for it to show up?) fully in the throws of BPD-like mind-games. Without being directly abusive toward me. Well... .not direct verbal abuse. The fine line that puts things like cheating, or telling me that she's done with our marriage short of abuse isn't making me feel any less hurt or pressured than the original abuse did.

I am curious about something. What if she is really done? Her actions and her words about being done are in alignment. When my husband's actions and words are in alignment, then I know that things are serious.

And, I am probably looking at things from a completely different perspective than others because a lot of the things that you are saying about your wife are probably things that my husband could say about me right now. Part of that comes from the frustration of not feeling heard. Your wife has made it pretty clear what she wants, which is a no commitment marriage where you can both do whatever you want. That doesn't work for you and that is okay. Do you think that asking for what you want in a T's office is going to get her to change her mind? And, can you trust that what is said in a T's office will be followed or make any kind of real changes or progress happen? That is part of the reason that I am reluctant to go to a T with my husband. I don't think it will make an ounce of difference. My husband will put on a show for me and the therapist and little if anything will really change.

[Notwendy]

" get so mad when I want to talk about things but get shut down because he isn't ready to talk about it or he doesn't want to deal with it. Yes, delaying a conversation until both parties are ready, willing, and able to tackle the hard issues can be helpful. However, I find it very frustrating when I am put off indefinitely or given a list of conditions that must exist in order to talk about the difficult stuff. On my side, it feels like my husband is avoiding things because he doesn't want to face the truth. It feels like he wants to string me along forever because he doesn't want to lose me while at the same time not really taking things as seriously as I would like. "

That is right on for me Vortex. We are in T, but the focus is usually on me and how I need to change. I can't tell if my H is there because he really wants to change or because he thinks that being there is going to change me. Regardless, it is a sign of a big commitment for him to go since it takes away from his work. Sometimes the T will help us resolve some issues. It is a safe place for me to talk to him because he won't rage in front of the T. Since this is the first time he has not refused to go- in years, I don't want to stop it. Sometimes the T can get him to pay attention to taking care of his own feelings and that is a big step. I used to resent that the focus was on me, but I know I had plenty of my own stuff to work on and so I am now grateful for it and grateful that he took this step to be there.

Ironically, I think my openess about feelings is what attracted him to me and that it is what makes him uncomfortable. He usually refuses to talk about anything important- like your H- which is a way of being in control and I suppose not being accountable- because that would be shame of being blamed. However, I can't make him talk if he's not going to, and pushing at that (brick wall) boundary doesn't work at all.

Nobody in his FOO talks about feelings. They all sneak around it by other ways. They look like the perfect couple on the surface. My mom on the other hand threw her feelings all over the place. They were everywhere. Neither way gives anyone any tools to deal with feelings. Neither of us had good tools for that.

I assumed that was what my H wanted- the calm and cool on the surface no talking family ( that deals with feelings in another maladaptive way)  but when I don't talk to him, he says he doesn't like it because he says it isn't me being me. That's true to an extent as I kept quiet to keep the peace even though I really wished we could talk. Now, I just don't want to have exhausting, triggering, conversations that lead to nowhere. If he wants me to know what he is feeling, he can tell me. If I need for him to know something, I will try to use SET

Another reason is that my overfunctioning feelings let him underfunction. If I push him to share it gives him a nice reason to explode and blame me for it. I don't want to be that outlet. Maybe my not talking makes him uncomfortable because he can't blame me- but since that is the way his family works, he knows better. That's their game. I don't know, but honestly at this point it is the same question you asked Grey Kitty- why be with someone who doesn't want to be with you. Why would I want to have a conversation with someone who doesn't want to talk to me?

[Grey Kitty]

Update. Good news. My wife is talking to two different local T options. One has an appointment Thursday penciled in, and she's still in the phone-tag stage with the other. She called to confirm it was OK, and I once again reassured her that I was good with her choice on it. We had a friendly conversation, and I explained a bit of what I am writing just below with her.

Re: not discussing heavy stuff / ending the r/s... .I see discussions like that with her right now in the category of insanity--doing the same thing again and again, expecting a different result.

These discussions don't seem to go well. We don't end up resolving things or getting closer together. Instead they end up with both of us getting more entrenched in our positions. More ready to give up on our r/s. ... .But with my wife still giving me a mixed message, even at the end of it.

I've gone through a divorce, Grey Kitty.  It was the leading up to it that was the hardest.  When I was truly ready to face it, it felt freeing.  I was finally speaking my truth, ready to live my values, not waiting around for him to see things my way.

I completely believe you. I'm not quite to that point yet.

She doesn't sound like she is either.

We were no longer good for each other, we were bringing each other down.  There was no desire from either of us to work things out.  And even if there was, it would have to be both of us, otherwise we would remain stagnant at best, while miserable is more like it.

If I believed that this was our situation I'd be done already.


VOC, these two questions play against each other... .

I just realized what a bizarre waiting game / stalemate I'm in with my wife right now.

How long are you willing to wait? How long will you be okay with this stalemate/waiting game?

We aren't living together. She's not really welcome on the boat, 'tho I did let her visit. I asked her about visiting her in her new place, and she was a little evasive, then told me she wasn't ready for that.

Here is a question to consider: If you aren't living together and aren't even completely welcome in each other's homes, then what is the rush? You have been separated with a commitment. Why not separate without any kind of commitment to give you both more time to sort stuff out?

I'm not comfortable stuck going nowhere in my life waiting for my wife.

[Grey Kitty]

And... .the big question... .what am I going to do about it?

Plan A: Demand that my wife behave better and wait for her to do it. (Geez, that hasn't worked well for years!)

Plan B: Stop demanding anything of my wife, and wait for her to behave better. (OK, I've done that too!)

Plan C: React blindly to whatever crisis my wife creates... .this time. (Well, maybe I did that one ahead of plan A? I dunno?)

There may be a few more plans I've already discarded that I can't remember 

Plan Z: Write the marriage off and move on with my life. (I'm not there. YET.)

Making my marriage work is going to require a better plan on my part. I'm working on it. Chewing on it. Not there yet.

I'm starting with my own values, and applying them toward my marriage.

Looking at how my behavior in my marriage is working toward or against my values.

Looking at the uncomfortable feelings that tell me something isn't working, and looking for what is against my values.

Looking at where I've been sacrificing my own needs for my wife or our marriage.

I'm still working through it. Look for more updates on my plan / strategy as I figure it out.

... .and I'm aware that without effort on my wife's part, the marriage won't succeed. I'm ready to accept that. What I'm not ready to accept is ending it without feeling I've done my best to make it work.

[MissyM]

... .and I'm aware that without effort on my wife's part, the marriage won't succeed. I'm ready to accept that. What I'm not ready to accept is ending it without feeling I've done my best to make it work.

I was there earlier last year.  I decided within myself (and with the help of some therapists) what amount of time I was willing to give it before it turned around or I would want out of the relationship.  It allowed me to focus on myself and do the things I needed and not feel as much pressure.  None of this was shared with my dBPDh, it was just for me to figure out for myself.

I happen to agree with not discussing heavy things outside of therapy, it has worked for my dBPDh and I.  I know of many couples in marital therapy that have this agreement. Interestingly enough, the therapists we are seeing do not want us discussing anything heavy outside of therapy.  They said that without the skills needed and more positive interactions between us, it would just damage our relationship further.  Of course, that doesn't work if you aren't actually in marital therapy.  Hope you find an MC soon!

[MissyM]

That is part of the reason that I am reluctant to go to a T with my husband. I don't think it will make an ounce of difference. My husband will put on a show for me and the therapist and little if anything will really change.

Vortex, I can understand feeling this way.  Most Ts are not experienced enough to handle someone with BPD and what you describe is exactly what will happen.  I believe it takes a specialized therapist and us being very clear with a Ts about what is going on.  Since your H has been diagnosed as a sex addict, therapists will already be aware there is something going on and not take everything he says at face value.  I happen to be a fan of EFT (emotion focus therapy) and DBT or CBT.  So, if you decide to go to marital therapy, I encourage you to find someone that can utilize modalities that work with someone that has BPD.

[Cole]

And... .the big question... .what am I going to do about it?

Plan A: Demand that my wife behave better and wait for her to do it. (Geez, that hasn't worked well for years!)

Plan B: Stop demanding anything of my wife, and wait for her to behave better. (OK, I've done that too!)

Plan C: React blindly to whatever crisis my wife creates... .this time. (Well, maybe I did that one ahead of plan A? I dunno?)

There may be a few more plans I've already discarded that I can't remember  

Plan Z: Write the marriage off and move on with my life. (I'm not there. YET.)

Making my marriage work is going to require a better plan on my part. I'm working on it. Chewing on it. Not there yet.

I'm starting with my own values, and applying them toward my marriage.

Looking at how my behavior in my marriage is working toward or against my values.

Looking at the uncomfortable feelings that tell me something isn't working, and looking for what is against my values.

Looking at where I've been sacrificing my own needs for my wife or our marriage.

I'm still working through it. Look for more updates on my plan / strategy as I figure it out.

... .and I'm aware that without effort on my wife's part, the marriage won't succeed. I'm ready to accept that. What I'm not ready to accept is ending it without feeling I've done my best to make it work.

I think many of us have been through plans A, B, and C and contemplated plan Z. You have lots of understanding here.

November we did plan X, where she said she was leaving and I offered to help her pack. Explained once it is over, it is over, no going back, no being friends, no hanging out, I will be looking for someone new. She lost interest in leaving pretty quick.  

Now we are on plan Y. Yesterday I told her June 1st is the deadline to see certain changes or I was filing. Gave it to her in writing along with the list of things that need to change and my attorney's business card so she understood I was serious.

Putting it into a plan with hard dates, budgetary numbers of what it will cost to divorce, and proposed custody schedules seems to be the much needed wake-up call. She had a romanticized view of divorce where I would be chasing after her like we were dating. Reality Check! She is suddenly very interested in what we can do to avoid plan Z.  

Again, do not know if this is the right approach for you, but it seems to be working here.    

[MaroonLiquid]

And... .the big question... .what am I going to do about it?

Plan A: Demand that my wife behave better and wait for her to do it. (Geez, that hasn't worked well for years!)

Plan B: Stop demanding anything of my wife, and wait for her to behave better. (OK, I've done that too!)

Plan C: React blindly to whatever crisis my wife creates... .this time. (Well, maybe I did that one ahead of plan A? I dunno?)

There may be a few more plans I've already discarded that I can't remember  

Plan Z: Write the marriage off and move on with my life. (I'm not there. YET.)

Making my marriage work is going to require a better plan on my part. I'm working on it. Chewing on it. Not there yet.

I'm starting with my own values, and applying them toward my marriage.

Looking at how my behavior in my marriage is working toward or against my values.

Looking at the uncomfortable feelings that tell me something isn't working, and looking for what is against my values.

Looking at where I've been sacrificing my own needs for my wife or our marriage.

I'm still working through it. Look for more updates on my plan / strategy as I figure it out.

... .and I'm aware that without effort on my wife's part, the marriage won't succeed. I'm ready to accept that. What I'm not ready to accept is ending it without feeling I've done my best to make it work.

I think many of us have been through plans A, B, and C and contemplated plan Z. You have lots of understanding here.

November we did plan X, where she said she was leaving and I offered to help her pack. Explained once it is over, it is over, no going back, no being friends, no hanging out, I will be looking for someone new. She lost interest in leaving pretty quick.  

Now we are on plan Y. Yesterday I told her June 1st is the deadline to see certain changes or I was filing. Gave it to her in writing along with the list of things that need to change and my attorney's business card so she understood I was serious.

Putting it into a plan with hard dates, budgetary numbers of what it will cost to divorce, and proposed custody schedules seems to be the much needed wake-up call. She had a romanticized view of divorce where I would be chasing after her like we were dating. Reality Check! She is suddenly very interested in what we can do to avoid plan Z.  

Again, do not know if this is the right approach for you, but it seems to be working here.    

Honestly, I'm about here Cole.  People have told me they believe that is when my wife's crap will stop.  No one believes she wants a divorce, but they also believe that she has no reason to change anything either because everything is in her favor right now, doesn't want to tell her family the truth nor deal with her deep seeded issues.  I'm about here... .When she has threatened divorce, I've said, ":)o what you feel you need to do." and she has always backed down because it was an effort to get her way.  Why June 1st Cole, just curious?  Why not sooner?

[vortex of confusion]

These discussions don't seem to go well. We don't end up resolving things or getting closer together. Instead they end up with both of us getting more entrenched in our positions. More ready to give up on our r/s. ... .But with my wife still giving me a mixed message, even at the end of it.

I am thinking about the mixed messages. I know that I am sending my husband mixed messages. We are both sending each other mixed messages in different ways. Could it be that she thinks you are sending mixed messages as well? I am going to try to explain what I mean based on some of the stuff that has happened between me and my husband. You have said some things repeatedly. I am not sure how many times you have stated that you cannot be in the kind of relationship that you are in with your wife. In order to stay, she is going to have to do certain things. That is fine but she has repeatedly shown you through her actions and words that she is not going to do those things. At what point are you going to listen to what she is saying? If you are telling her that she has to cut contact with the guy in order to stay in the relationship and she isn't cutting contact and you aren't leaving, then isn't that a mixed message? Isn't that a bit of a contradiction?

VOC, these two questions play against each other... .

Do they really? I see them as different shades of grey depending on what you want to do and how long you are willing to play the game. If you have the patience to wait longer and take a different approach than the current one, then how is that a stalemate. You say that you don't want to wait but that is exactly what you are doing. I am not trying to be a butt. I know how impatient I get over this whole mess with my H. I want things resolved now so that I can get on with my life either way. It took a whole lot of years for us to get into this mess, it could take a couple years to get out of it.

And, I had another thought that I have been toying with. Have you drawn the distinction between the legal aspects of the marriage and the emotional aspects of the marriage? I am not sure if it would help or not but I do know that is something that I have put some thought into. Dividing assets, custody, and all that could get rather messy. I can honor the legal aspects of the marriage without necessarily being emotionally invested in the marriage. I don't think I am explaining myself very well.

And... .the big question... .what am I going to do about it?

Plan A: Demand that my wife behave better and wait for her to do it. (Geez, that hasn't worked well for years!)

Plan B: Stop demanding anything of my wife, and wait for her to behave better. (OK, I've done that too!)

Plan C: React blindly to whatever crisis my wife creates... .this time. (Well, maybe I did that one ahead of plan A? I dunno?)

There may be a few more plans I've already discarded that I can't remember 

Plan Z: Write the marriage off and move on with my life. (I'm not there. YET.)

Making my marriage work is going to require a better plan on my part. I'm working on it. Chewing on it. Not there yet.

I am going to ask a question that I have asked my husband on occasion. I seem to recall you mentioning that you had been pretty checked out for a while and you did not respond to your wife's requests for romance, etc. Yes, you are making all of this effort NOW. You are quite clearly fighting to save your marriage and get your wife's attention, interest, commitment, etc. How long were you and your wife in that push/pull mode before you woke up and realized what was going on? I ask that because I have spent years trying to woo my husband. I have spent years making him a priority and trying to connect with him. I have tried so many different things with him. And now, he seems to be trying. To be brutally honest, there are times that I want to laugh at how ridiculous it is for him to think that he could put me off and ignore me for all of those and then one day wake up and decide to work on things and have me believe that he is being sincere and that the changes will stick.

And, I know the fact that my husband treats me better when I have a lover than when I don't wears on my psyche. I seem to recall that you mentioned in one thread how you upped your game in the romance department when she had a romantic lover. My husband told me to cut it off with my lover on a couple of occasions. I honored his request several different times. When I would honor that request, he would get lazy and it felt like he can only up his game and take an interest in me when there is some kind of direct competition. Our situations are different in a lot of ways but this is something to think about. Why should she trust you to not slip back into old patterns? Why should she commit to you? Have your actions towards her shown her that she can trust you? I know that BPD complicates matters but I think it helps to think about those things and try to approach it from a more objective stand point and look at it in terms of YOUR behavior rather than continuing to make it about her and her behavior. It isn't easy, that is for certain.

I'm starting with my own values, and applying them toward my marriage.

Why not start with your own values and apply them towards yourself without regard to the marriage? I am not saying that you should ignore the marriage. I am trying to say that maybe you would feel less stuck if you focused more on yourself and applying your values to you as a human being rather than as part of a relationship. I know that is a bit fuzzy. It sounds good in my head. :-)

I bring this up because this is something that I am trying to verbalize for myself. I feel like I have defined myself in terms of my roles as a wife and mother for so long that I have forgotten how to be a person. Everything I do tends to be focused on the marriage or the kids. Those aren't bad things but it does occasionally help to say, "Forget it, I am not going to think about things in relationship to the marriage. I am going to think about things in relation to ME." I am hoping that once I figure some of that out, I can make more progress in one direction or the other.

... .and I'm aware that without effort on my wife's part, the marriage won't succeed. I'm ready to accept that. What I'm not ready to accept is ending it without feeling I've done my best to make it work.

Something that I know about myself is that I don't think I will ever get to a point where I feel that I have done my best to make it work. I am working on letting that go and letting myself get to a place where I will be okay if I reach a point where I say, "That's enough." I have made it this far by continuing to berate and belittle myself for not doing enough or trying hard enough. If I am tired and exhausted and want out, I want to be in a position where I can give myself permission to get out without feeling guilty for not trying hard enough.

[Cole]

Honestly, I'm about here Cole.  People have told me they believe that is when my wife's crap will stop.  No one believes she wants a divorce, but they also believe that she has no reason to change anything either because everything is in her favor right now, doesn't want to tell her family the truth nor deal with her deep seeded issues.  I'm about here... .When she has threatened divorce, I've said, ":)o what you feel you need to do." and she has always backed down because it was an effort to get her way.  Why June 1st Cole, just curious?  Why not sooner?

June 1st school will be out and the kids would not have to deal with the initial part of this during the already stressful school year. And, it gives plenty of time to work on the changes I laid out:

1) Stop looking to your friends for counseling. They are not professionals. Half of them are more messed up than you and are doing more harm than good.

2) Stop counseling your messed up friends. You cannot deal with your own problems, stop taking on theirs.

2) Find a T you trust and start going. I will go with you, if you want. If she/he is not right, we will look for another until we find the right one.

3) I and the kids are to be a priority over FB friends or people you went to high school with and have not seen in 25 years.

4) Find a solution to the lack of intimacy in our marriage. We know the problem, now let's find a good T to help.

5) I will help you accomplish all these things, but in the end it is your responsibility.  

It is easy for the pwBPD to live in a fantasy world of their own concoction. In our case, she thought we would be "dating" after a divorce and I would be chasing after her to get her back. Replacing the fantasy with the pragmatic realities of divorce hit home with her. It is like when your kid refuses to clean his room, so you clean it for him with a trash bag and a donation box. Suddenly, this is real and it is time to change behavior.  

The list was carefully chosen. She has been working on all these things on her own recently, so all I really asked of her was to continue what she already determined she should be doing. It validated her that she is doing the right things and that they were her idea.

Timing was on my side, as well She had a wonderful epiphany in church yesterday, so she was in the mood to embrace positive change.

Yes, there are those who say this may have been risky. I do not recommend it unless you are prepared to follow through. For me, I was willing to take the risk. I love my wife, but I cannot live in a half-marriage anymore and am prepared to go forward with divorce proceedings if it comes to that.  

[jedimaster]

Wow, GK.  I've kinda been off the boards last couple of days and thought things were stable where you are.  So sorry to read this thread.   

I suppose over the last 33 years of my marriage I have gone about as far as you are going, with the exception of the cheating.  You've seen some of my other posts so you know I've pretty much made the decision to end it when I get a plan in place.  I've had to take a hard look at where I am and my age, etc, and decide if the results that might come of trying to create some kind of tolerable r/s will leave me any life left by the time I'm done.  I just don't think I can give that much more of my life given that I'm not really seeing much in the way of positive results now, with the exception that I do feel much better than I did a few months ago.  But I'm not really seeing any changes in her, and from all I see and learn it doesn't really appear likely that I will. 

I know you are trying to take care of you, as we all are supposed to.  I would ask, is trying to keep this r/s together the best thing for Grey Kitty, given all the effort it is taking and the mixed results?  Maybe taking care of GK will require letting it go.  Not suggesting that's what you should do, but just asking if you've looked at it that way.  For me, I've concluded that going to T and support groups, etc, and all the other "good things" we all do to help ourselves aren't going to be enough, I'm afraid. 

[Rapt Reader]

This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are encouraged to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for understanding... .