New Phase, New Point (Part 8)

[Grey Kitty]

UPDATE. BAD UPDATE.

My wife just called. She's looking at a pair of couples T's out there. She claims she's very busy, and doesn't have much time to call them. She was looking at one in a town an hour away, but didn't call yet. Then found one in the town I'm in, and was asking me if I wanted that one.

... .then she dropped another bomb. She doesn't want to be in our committed marriage anymore. She asked me about looking for a T for an amicable split, instead of trying to repair our marriage.

I asked her what an amicable split meant to her.

She mentioned all the joint things we do together. Being friends. Some websites. How much she enjoyed our time together over Christmas.

I listened. And told her that it wouldn't work for me. That I'd not be able to be friends with her for six months, a year, a decade. I admitted that I'd kinda checked out on my feelings over Christmas.

We stayed civil. I said something round-about, and she latched onto my saying her decision was rash. She told me that I had no idea what she was thinking and feeling and reminded me how much I hate it when she does that.

(Note: What I was trying to talk around was that I don't think she's in a place where she is emotionally competent to make her own decisions until she works on some of her own stuff and allows some time for self-reflection. And while I believe it, there's no good way to say that!)

I left it at I'd rather try to have this final discussion with a third party referee in the room, not just the two of us.

She's going to call the MC and see if she can set up an appointment next week.



The saga of my wife cheating is now in its fourth month. I didn't think I was going to let it go on this long. History here... .the titles shifted with my feelings at the time:

Part 1: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=235769.0;all

Part 2: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=236247.0;all

Part 3: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=236799.0

Part 4: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=236950.0;all

Part 5: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=237387.0;all

Part 6: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=238665.0;all

Part 7: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=239999.0;all

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[vortex of confusion]

UPDATE. BAD UPDATE.

Sending you a great big hug!   

(Note: What I was trying to talk around was that I don't think she's in a place where she is emotionally competent to make her own decisions until she works on some of her own stuff and allows some time for self-reflection. And while I believe it, there's no good way to say that!)

I don't think it would be a good idea to bring this up. Telling somebody else that she isn't emotionally competent to make her own decisions is unbelievable invalidating. And, it also comes across as very arrogant. Yes, that is what you believe but what makes you believe that? I am sure that it is a big list of things.

Let me also ask you this: If she isn't competent to make her own decisions with regard to end the marriage, then what makes her competent to make decisions such as whether or not to see the other guy? Is she competent or not? I am not trying to be adversarial. It is a question that I have asked myself over the years. Is my husband capable or isn't he? If he is, why is it that I have only held him accountable on some things while not others?

I left it at I'd rather try to have this final discussion with a third party referee in the room, not just the two of us.

Are you in denial about her wanting to end things with you? What do you think a third party will add to the discussion?

[Grey Kitty]

I don't think it would be a good idea to bring this up. Telling somebody else that she isn't emotionally competent to make her own decisions is unbelievable invalidating. And, it also comes across as very arrogant. Yes, that is what you believe but what makes you believe that? I am sure that it is a big list of things.

Yup, I know that nothing good will come of calling her emotionally incompetent to make a life decision! That's why I didn't say it directly! Your question is a very good one.

I've got two reasons. First she's been living out of a suitcase since April, and that has really worn on her. She unpacked on Monday. Feeling safe and hitting equilibrium may take more than 4 days.

Second, her reasons/statements about it are all over the place, and many of them are about how she can't handle me having feelings that challenge her... .not about her making her own choices.

She might be clearer about it in her own head than when she's talking to me about it. I know that when I write things here or talk to a friend I feel a lot clearer than when I'm talking to her about our marriage!

[Bloomer]

Jaysus, that's some bomb, man!   

Is it possible she's testing the waters to see if you'll budge on boundaries? I feel like my H does this every time the topic of leaving comes up. And the one time I let him go so far as viewing apartments, he eventually caved.

I agree she probably isn't in a good enough state to make a sound decision about your shared life but of course there is little value in sharing this with her. Has it ever crossed your mind that she might *never* be there?   

Are you feeling any peace in the thought of moving on right now?

[Grey Kitty]

Are you in denial about her wanting to end things with you? What do you think a third party will add to the discussion?

I'm hoping a third party will call her on the stuff that sounds inconsistent and all over the place.

Keep us both on track, as we seem to ramble into vague unhappy places when we discuss it together.

Are you feeling any peace in the thought of moving on right now?

I was kinda getting there--at least that I couldn't keep going where things were headed. And this bomb isn't totally new. I've heard it or similar before in the time since she started cheating.

I don't think I'm feeling much at all right now.

I know she doesn't want a complete split with me, but I can't see myself in the amicable split she wants.

To me it feels like losing the commitment of our marriage and keeping all the other trappings.

I think that doing it that way will keep me from making my own choices in my life moving forward, the way I want to... .while she flits about and does what she wants. The sort of heartbreak and heartburn I'm experiencing right now.

[MaroonLiquid]

Jaysus, that's some bomb, man!   

Is it possible she's testing the waters to see if you'll budge on boundaries? I feel like my H does this every time the topic of leaving comes up. And the one time I let him go so far as viewing apartments, he eventually caved.

That's interesting and I think is valid here.  She's trying anything it seems.  She is obviously struggling with the other guy and wants to feel better about it and get you to give in.  GK, remember when my wife threatened divorce because she was trying to keep the pot stirred and control me and when I said both times, "do what you need to do.", she caved. 

[wdone]

Are you in denial about her wanting to end things with you? What do you think a third party will add to the discussion?

I'm hoping a third party will call her on the stuff that sounds inconsistent and all over the place.

Keep us both on track, as we seem to ramble into vague unhappy places when we discuss it together.

Are you feeling any peace in the thought of moving on right now?

I was kinda getting there--at least that I couldn't keep going where things were headed. And this bomb isn't totally new. I've heard it or similar before in the time since she started cheating.

I don't think I'm feeling much at all right now.

I know she doesn't want a complete split with me, but I can't see myself in the amicable split she wants.

To me it feels like losing the commitment of our marriage and keeping all the other trappings.

I think that doing it that way will keep me from making my own choices in my life moving forward, the way I want to... .while she flits about and does what she wants. The sort of heartbreak and heartburn I'm experiencing right now.

I am so sorry, Grey Kitty.   

What you said about her wanting to keep you around as friends, so you can't move forward really made sense and resonated with me about my own situation... I should go back and read your story... but has she down this before? (I didn't get the impression that she had?) 

[patientandclear]

I know she doesn't want a complete split with me, but I can't see myself in the amicable split she wants.

To me it feels like losing the commitment of our marriage and keeping all the other trappings.

I think that doing it that way will keep me from making my own choices in my life moving forward, the way I want to... .while she flits about and does what she wants. The sort of heartbreak and heartburn I'm experiencing right now.

I agreed to essentially what she is asking for, with my BPDex. It sucked, for the reasons you are flagging. He got all of the same good stuff he had when we were in a committed r/ship, but without any accountability or commitment on his part. I agreed to it because I didn't want to control or pressure him (esp in light of his controlling and abusive childhood) and thought showing up voluntarily as his "person" when we didn't have to, would establish trust. For a while he kept being my "person" too. But when he stopped, there was nothing I could say or do about it on the terms I'd signed on for. He thought he could freely come and go and that should be fine.

I learned the hard way that it was not fine.

[Grey Kitty]

wdone, no, she hasn't run away from our marriage before. Yes, some divorce/breakup threats before, but this is different. And since we are already living separately there isn't much more running away that she needs to do. In that way, very different from your story.

So I just got back from a phone call with my dear friend, the one I call the captain of "Team Grey Kitty". She talked to my wife yesterday... .and did admit that she was breaking confidence telling me some things my wife said, 'tho they mostly weren't anything I hadn't heard directly. I also don't think my wife asked for confidence directly.

Almost her first words were something like "I'm so sorry, Grey" before I'd even said much. Her take is that my wife is living soo far from reality. Trying to twist her morals and definitions of words like "cheating" to match reality... .and trying to twist reality into stuff that matches her feelings. (This friend has LOTS of BPD experience) She had a few points for me.

First, expect the recycle attempt. As in, my wife will eventually realize what reality is, that she ___ed up big time, and fall apart. Badly. And call for help. As a way to haul me back into everything. I've always been there to for her when she did this before. (Usually she didn't fall apart

Second, it is time to start thinking like we're separating. Time to not answer the phone when my wife calls, let her go to voicemail, and only talk to her with a script to keep me on track... .not very different from what is recommended on the divorce board.

I'm still a little shocked about the prediction that she will crash, burn, and call for help... .and the statement that I need to be ready to hold strong and NOT rescue her. Not sure what I'll do. I am betting she'll crash and burn 'tho.

She's had a really tough year, and I was jumping through hoops to save her most of the last 13 months. The difference is that she was crashing because of things beyond her control... .not because of the consequences of her actions toward me, and my response to them.

If I'm ready to cut ties and go forward as a single guy, I probably will be ready to no rescue her.

Instead I'm still hoping she will get a clue... .but for how much longer... .?

... .Cross-posted with P&C.   I know you went through it. I read your posts then. I've done my share of it too. That's why I'm telling her now that I can't, instead of agreeing to it.

[MissyM]

GK, I am going to guess that your wife is talking to her affair partner and trying to figure out a way to keep him.  If she can rationalize and convince herself that what she is doing isn't cheating because the 2 of you are splitting, then it makes her feel better.  Kind of like telling you before she had sex with him.  I agree that she will crash and burn, probably when she realizes that she isn't going to be happier with the affair partner.  So sorry you are going through this, it stinks. 

My advice is to decide what you want, your actions are going to be very different based upon that.  I know you are aware of this because of the advice you give others, so I would take the time to figure this out for yourself.

[patientandclear]

  x 100.

I really like the captain of Team Grey Kitty.

[formflier]

 

Grey,

Hang in there man... .

You are under no obligation to participate in the split of your marriage... .if you don't want to.  If she is going to leave... .she can do that.

I would be careful about agreeing to meet "only" to discuss and amicable breakup.

I would stick with a line... .like we are going to meet and discuss our r/s... .leave it at that.


Since she is a bit far from reality... .remember... .the stuff she says may be a test... .know what to know that. 

In fact... that is my best guess right now.

I'm a pretty rational guy... .none of this seems rational... .the stuff she is doing... .so... .hard for me to process and "figure out".

[wdone]

UPDATE. BAD UPDATE.


... .then she dropped another bomb. She doesn't want to be in our committed marriage anymore. She asked me about looking for a T for an amicable split, instead of trying to repair our marriage.

I asked her what an amicable split meant to her.

I wanted to add, when we started couples counseling, and all throughout the six months, my ex said that we were going to meet with our couples counselor to break up, and that was the only reason he was going.  I had to agree to that several times before he would go, or meet me there.  Once I/we got there, he would look at me and shift--usually before even going in, and say he didn't really want to break up and he didn't know what he was thinking.  I'm not sure why this happened... maybe because going to a couples counselor really meant that we were committed and working on it/INTIMACY and commitment stuff…. It was hard to get him there, but he loved it when we went... every time.  We

[Grey Kitty]

Thanks for the support everybody!

@MissyM, curiously enough, she says she's not in contact with the guy she cheated with, and I believe her. She claimed all along that there was no interest in more than an occasional/secondary r/s, on either of their parts. I believe her intention. I don't believe much of anything he said, whether from him directly or via my wife. (If she jumps in with another guy... .it will likely be somebody different.)

Somehow, for my wife, my need to have her cut contact represents and is tied with a gordian knot to all the dysfunctional/controlling/passive-aggressive/whatever things I've done in at least the last 5~10 years of our marriage.

@P&C, the wonderfulness of the captain of Team Grey Kitty just keeps going on!

She also accepted my statement that I wasn't ready to start cutting all ties.

@FF, I agree--I'm not obligated to start splitting my marriage. And if I go to MC with my wife, that won't really be what I'm talking about.

I'm more afraid of my wife re-defining our marriage in a way that doesn't work for me, as it has no commitment from her for anything. I'm afraid of having nothing for me in it but baggage which will keep me out of a better r/s. I also have the freedom to end it if it is what I need.

I don't think her non-reality is intended to be a test for me. Or if it is, perhaps I'm proving not to be codependent enough to pass her test? 

Another crazy part is that she really speaks about how she doesn't like my older codependent behavior... .yet what really seems to set her off is when I start showing a backbone about stuff that matters to me, instead of old codependent behavior. I guess she likes the passive part of passive-aggressive? (Not sure how passive-aggressive I was either; that label and the controlling label have been thrown at me enough that I don't know what to think.)

@wdone, I'm still holding onto a tiny bit of hope that she'll get us an appointment for a couples T... .and figure something out there.

Telling me she can't be in a r/s with me (repeatedly) is NOT the same as ending a r/s. It is hurtful, and confusing... .but she's confused.

If she was really DONE, she'd not be in touch with me. Instead she's clear that she does love me, does want to be connected with me... .and kinda confusedly-vaguely clear that she just can't handle aspects of a committed marriage with me.

Knowing that I'm not interested in her version of an amicable split is going to hit her sooner or later.



It is bedtime. My current mood is pissed. (I'm all over the map; this one will probably not last long enough for me to finish typing this paragraph!) This crap she's thrown my direction has really killed my productivity for anything but emotional processing, and trying to do a few things to take care of myself. Over the last year, her mental health/drama has cost me 70% of the energy I would have liked to have put into something else.

Another day gone without any progress on my boat, which is what I keep telling myself and my friends I'm trying to work on.

[formflier]

 

Grey,

I'm in the same place with productivity.  The guy I used to be... .got things done.

The guy I am now is focused on emotions... .family... .trying to steer this massive ship in the right direction.

This does match my values... .so ultimately I'm ok with it.

But... .it is frustrating.

I think that is what I'm hearing from you... .that you are spending your time on things that you value... .but are frustrated that things that you want to do are not getting done.  Especially because those things are very satisfying... .you have a passion there.

Note:  Earlier in my life I've done a couple smaller boat projects.  Also... I'm a Navy guy... .I love the sea (and live in the mountains right now... hmmmm)  Anyway... .the satisfaction of getting on the water with something that you put back together... .is awesome.   I hope you can find a way to keep this going.

I would also note that there is a reason most boats are referred to as "she"... .   

Maybe that is another post all together... .

Hang in there!

[Grey Kitty]

Well... .I just got off the phone with another dear friend I've not talked to since before the holidays.

I updated her on some of what's going on. I heard some of her news.

... .and I was soo busted on the very codependent sounding stuff I was saying. Everything I'm talking about is what my wife is doing, what she's thinking, what she's going through, and the guys she's chasing after in various places.

What about the things that I want to do.

Back to working on the boat today, rain or shine, warm or cold.

[wdone]

[vortex of confusion]

... .and I was soo busted on the very codependent sounding stuff I was saying. Everything I'm talking about is what my wife is doing, what she's thinking, what she's going through, and the guys she's chasing after in various places.

What about the things that I want to do.

Back to working on the boat today, rain or shine, warm or cold.

The hardest thing for me to change is how I talk about stuff. For years, everything that I talked about was in relation to my husband and what he is doing and feeling and thinking. Even positive stuff was about my husband. Ugh! Good luck on switching the focus to you and what you are doing and what you want and what you are thinking and feelings.

[MissyM]

... .and I was soo busted on the very codependent sounding stuff I was saying. Everything I'm talking about is what my wife is doing, what she's thinking, what she's going through, and the guys she's chasing after in various places.

What about the things that I want to do.

Back to working on the boat today, rain or shine, warm or cold.

I recognize this dance that happens in my marriage.  I would get really clear on what I wanted, my dBPDh would agree that is what he wanted (when he saw I wasn't going to give in) and then he would do something to knock my feet out from under me emotionally and I would respond with my side of the codependent dance.  Good thing is that my awareness has helped stop me from reacting as much and/or catching myself and getting back on track sooner.  Sounds like that is what you are doing, getting back on track sooner.  Either she will come along and join you, or she won't.  Chasing after her and future worrying won't change anything, and it is mentally/emotionally/physically draining. 

Enjoy your day working on the boat!   

[formflier]

and then he would do something to knock my feet out from under me emotionally and I would respond with my side of the codependent dance.  

Can you give an example?

[Grey Kitty]

Well, I did get *some* work done today; I was hoping to do a bigger job, but I found a smaller one first, and need to wait for things to cure before I move on to the other one. At least inertia is in the correct direction now.

I also was thinking... .my friend did note that my wife has a pattern of flirting and seeking male attention. The question of how it serves my wife isn't mine to worry about, although living with the pattern is mine as long as I'm involved with my wife.

And I had another thought: Am I failing to meet my wife's needs/desires in a way which pushes her to seek attention from other guys? (No, her cheating is not my fault, and she's not even saying that!) And I realized that yes, there is room for me to do better. A LOT better.

I've not found romantic gestures hugely natural or easy. Especially the traditional ones. My wife does want and need them. For a couple years, her other partner was incredibly romantic. I probably upped my game some, partly because of the reminder, and partly because I didn't want to look that lame in comparison. After he died, I fell into taking care of her as she was terribly depressed, and caretaking doesn't lend itself toward romance. And neither does feeling hurt, angry, or betrayed.

I do know that my wife wants/needs romance. A bit of desire/seduction mixed in with it would be good for her as well.

Will it stop her from flirting? Little chance, but I don't need it to. Will it stop her from cheating? Maybe not, but that isn't why I would make that change. My reason will be to give her what she needs/wants, because I care about her.

She hasn't even asked for any of this recently, or complained about its absence to me.

And I'm thinking that if I'm going to have a working marriage, I need to put some effort into it, in a direction that I've forgotten about. It may not work. It may be too little, too late.

Most importantly, I need to focus myself on MY goals and MY needs. One of my priorities is working on my boat. Working on my marriage is a priority too, and I'm in a kinda ambiguous state about it right now.

I will serve myself better to focus on both these things, instead of focusing on what my wife is thinking/doing. It is such a hard thing to change.

[formflier]

I've not found romantic gestures hugely natural or easy. Especially the traditional ones. My wife does want and need them. 

Do you really think she doesn't want or need them? 

Here is the thing... .pwBPD sometimes don't say what they mean... .aren't clear... .say one thing... .want another.

She also is inconsistent in living out her values... .

So... it would go along that line that she would be inconsistent in communicating her needs to you... .

Not sure if I made that connection properly... .hopefully you get the point...

I like the direction your post is going... .

[Grey Kitty]

Yes, I'm sure she wants them. No, she hasn't asked for them recently. She hasn't mentioned it recently.

She's pretty much completely failed to communicate her needs to me in a way that I can do anything to provide them lately.

[formflier]

Yes, I'm sure she wants them. No, she hasn't asked for them recently. She hasn't mentioned it recently.

She's pretty much completely failed to communicate her needs to me in a way that I can do anything to provide them lately.

And if you ask her directly what she needs?  

My guess is a weird... wandering response is what you will get. 

But... .just curious if you have directly asked her recently

[Mie]

I know she doesn't want a complete split with me, but I can't see myself in the amicable split she wants.

I understand this.

My SO is talking about (since we started the business together) that he wants 'his freedom' and I should do my things and he should Go his way, and we would both be happier. We would stay friends forever! He is now waiting for the business to bring some money to him and then he will go, and our 'amicable split' will happen.

I certainly don't want any amicable split either! I don't even understand the concept.

Being friends means that I stay where I am (running business, keeping house), and he will go away, spend all his money in very short time, start and ruin a new relationship, and when he is lonely and penniless he can come back to me because we are friends. No thanks.

[patientandclear]

GK ... .Referring to your ideas about being more romantic toward your wife, because it might make her happy: are you trying to be someone whom she would want to treat better than she is currently treating you?

[Grey Kitty]

GK ... .Referring to your ideas about being more romantic toward your wife, because it might make her happy: are you trying to be someone whom she would want to treat better than she is currently treating you?

No, it really doesn't change my bottom line--stay not in contact with the guy she cheated with.

I'm also realizing that I'm getting sorta-kinda-mixed messages from her. She's staying engaged (mostly), saying she loves me, but telling me she can't be in a committed marriage.

The last time she spoke to not being able to work things out with me, I believed her. That was when I told my parents, and asked them not to leave her unsupervised with our joint stuff. She's brought that incident up with me, and with some mutual friends--she feels really hurt or betrayed by what I did then... .

... .and what I did seems pretty reasonable, if I believed her statement about ending things.

... .which makes me think that even at that time, she didn't completely believe herself what she was saying, or at least that she flaps in the breeze with her convictions in typical pwBPD fashion.

I think this is leading me to another new boundary... .one that I will warn my wife about... .that if she tells me again that she wants to end our marriage I will believe her, and act accordingly.

[Crumbling]

    Just saw your thread, GK,   

It does sound like a ' oop or get off the pot' boundary would be totally appropriate.  It's the not knowing, and going back and forth that's hard.  If you know which way the path is headed, even if it isn't the one you want, then at least it's something, right?  Better place to be in than this yo-yoing and quazi-relationship stuff.   

Know what's best for you, GK.     Stay focused on that.  I liked what you said about knowing what you want to say before talking to her.  Getting a clear picture of what you want/need, especially on paper, would be a good solid place to start the conversations.

Be careful about reminiscing and going back over the relationship questioning your actions right now.  Yes, I agree it's good to know where you went wrong, but right now, she has told you she does not want the relationship to go on.  To try to 'fix' things now is to invalidate what she has said.

Tell her, if it's over, it's over.  No going back, no reconnecting after six months, or six weeks.  I like this boundary.  It helps you and her both.  If she is just blowing smoke, then, this may spark her into cutting though it and being real.  I guess the tough part about it is that you would have to be ready to enforce it...

my prayers are with you,

c.

[formflier]

I think this is leading me to another new boundary... .one that I will warn my wife about... .that if she tells me again that she wants to end our marriage I will believe her, and act accordingly.

This seems a little "line in the sandish" to me... .

If... .you have sat with your feelings... and this is really something you want a boundary on... .then by all means... .go for it.

But... .it seems that it gives her a "weapon" to use on you... .or that she will "test" the boundary... .you move on... .she now chases after you... .(once she gets into "pull" mode)

I would focus much more in counseling and on your conversations about how she could be hurt that you acted on her words. (the parents... .joint story thing)  Does she not say what she means?   I would stay on that topic... until she "fully explains herself".

Because... .what you did was reasonable and healthy... .what she did was not.

Ultimately... .what I think "fixes" or gets you guys back on track is that she stays still for a period of months... .you have a counselor to guide you and keep discussions on track... .and she begins to make healthier choices.

Have you thought of what a boundary would look like that says you won't discuss ending your marriage or a split. 

The reality is... .she can leave if she wants... .so if she brings it up... .just say you don't discuss that and end the conversation.

Thoughts?

[Crumbling]

Here's another thought... .you have already set a boundary about this other guy that she has overstepped.  Isn't that the issue for you here, GK, I mean like, before she dropped the bomb? 

Perhaps she dropped the bomb to skirt and muddle the fact that you set a boundary that she overstepped.  You need this validated and addressed, perhaps, before it would be healthy for you to tackle anything else... .

I just know you must be your focus, not her... .dont forget.   

c.